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Discussion: Another thought on home run limits

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Sept. 1, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Another thought on home run limits
Had a thought to throw out on the controversial home run rules- what if we kept the limits as they are, 1-AA, 3-AAA, 5-M, 10-M+. After that, award singles with every runner moving up a base up to the home run level of the next higher division. OK, example is we get our 3 home runs at AAA. The next 2 (reaching 5, the level for Major) are singles, then outs. You don't get outs until you have exceeded the allowed output of the next level up. Seems to me, if you exceed that consistently, you may need to be re-evaluated. Major would get their 5, then 5 singles, then outs. Major Plus would consider going to 10 and then 1-up or maybe 5 singles, then out. Open for debate guys-just a new thought.

PS We have to count anyway and did when it was 1-up-we can do that, can't we????
Sept. 1, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Sorry Webbie ... I like the outs after reaching the home-run limit ... Teams hitting home-runs over their limit need to somehow be forced to reconsider the level they are playing on ... Awarding a single, a walk, or anything else unnecessarily rewards this behavior ... Play at the next level or suffer the consequences.
Sept. 1, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
I disagree #19. If we continue to have limits as they are now, we'll see sandbagging in all divisions. We already IMHO have to many divisions now. It is tourney ball and we all have ben playing for a few years. What's wrong with two divisions in each age bracket? It would allow for more teams in each tourney. It might be a little tough at the beginning, but like water, everyone or team would find their own level. I beleive we rule & regulate ourselves to death as it is. Someone please explain why we have so many divisions in each age bracket. I'm sorry as well. I'll create another thread.
Sept. 1, 2011
Paco13
353 posts
Webbie, This is great idea. This will give SSUSA a better parameter of moving teams up rather than just winning one big tourney with 7 teams or more. I like it, even though we probably never going to hit the extra two HRs. I am a believer that you should not get penalized for a well hit ball that happens to go over the fence.

PR Ninja out.
Sept. 1, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Is something fundamentally wrong when the only criteria being used to rate teams is home runs?

That is the ONLY aspect of the game worth rating?

Just make no sense!
Sept. 1, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
I totally agree withyou G. Since the inception of homerun rules, it has given the folks at the top of the associations an easy out. Homeruns decide classification, not talent.
Sept. 1, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Gary-I made that point to Dave Dowell when I sent the idea to him.Home runs cannot be the only criteria. We have played teams that just rip the ball all over the field and hit very few Hr's. Kicked our 'butt'. But it is an important one to a lot of teams.
It would help teams in that 'wind blowing out hard' games.
Sept. 1, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Mark, I just would hate to think the game with the special bats has been reduced to home run derby. And that homers are all that is valued.
Sept. 1, 2011
coop3636
57 posts
Hey
What if all the divisions had the one up rule?
This way if you team doesn't hit many homeruns, then it doesn't matter either way, but if two teams hit more homeruns, it makes them happy also.
If we would make all the limits with a one up rule, then we would not have as many 3 team tournaments (which we had 2 weeks ago in B'ham). My opinion is that most AAA teams wouldn't mind playing major teams if it was a 3 hr and one up limit, and would be a little better for the major teams. This being said, all after the limit would be outs.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Brett Cooper
Monster # 36
Sept. 1, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
In my opinion the plus 1 is just putting a band-aid on the problem. It's not fixing it. Why would the major teams want to play down then? Our teams in most cases are built to compete at the division we play in. It's not the homerun rules that need to be changed, it's the divisions. To many!!!
Sept. 1, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
So, Pricer, you seem very intelligent and thoughtful about our game. Where do we go? This is what SSUSA has been wrestling with. In another thread I proposed 50-57, 58-64, and 65-70 age brackets. After other thoughts, I said how about 50-56, 57-63, and 64-70. They both cut out one full age group. The other prevailing thought is 3 divisions. SSUSA likes the idea of more teams being able to win tournaments, but the cost is smaller brackets. So, what do you think would be the best solution?
Also, I threw the idea (the thread subject) that I had about home run limits on this thread out to our league this morning and it was pretty unanimous that they thought it had merit, and was worth exploring. What do you think??
Sept. 1, 2011
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
382 posts
I very seldom see the 3-HR limit exceeded at AAA 60. It does happen but not that often.
Sept. 1, 2011
Jose #12
Men's 60
86 posts
Enviro-Vac, I agree. I have been playing 60 and 65 AAA all year and have only seen the limit hit by one team in one tournament.
Sept. 1, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Please understand I'm not much for following the leader. Our society has become one in where everyone should have the same opportunity regardless of the cost to the people. Softball has mirrored this. Everyone has to have the same opportunity to hit homeruns, so we introduce the super bats. Then when it seems because we're getting old and our bodies start to change, we now have to introduce the double secret probationary super bats. That way now people who did not hit homeruns in their youth, can now do as a senior player. So now we have homerun rules to determine 4 plus divisions per age group. I know the bats are here for long term, but let's not make this out to be brain surgery. We don't need more than 2 divisions in each age group. Anyone who thinks otherwise should really think about it before you post, because logic tells us we don't. This to me is so simple. It's tournament ball fellas. Let's get over the equal participation & limit the real good teams so the weaker can hang tough until the open inning. No mercy after 4 or 5 innings when some teams are up 20 or 25 runs, that's a whole another thread. Simple logic folks. It's softball and we've been playing it for the better part of our lives. We know what the answers are already. Let's not rule ourselves to the point as softball players that none of us want to play any longer. Sorry for the rant, but this is my opinion.
Sept. 1, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
I have been saying all along what coop3636 said. If the divisions (except AA) had the one up rule, it wouldn't matter at all. Two teams play that can bang away, it's equal. Two teams play and one team doesn't have the power, the team with the power can't hit as many, which is another equalizer for the lower team.

Webbie, you're larger age brackets with less divisions is exactly what I have been saying too. Would rather see the 50-57, 58-64, 65-70 idea. Right now there are too many age groups and too many divisions. Wouldn't it be more of an accompishment to win a tournament with 12 teams in it instead of the usual 3 or 4?

As much as I would like to "just play ball", it's not going to happen that way. There needs to be some limits on play, if we are going to use these bats (another issue). However, with the need to equalize teams somewhat, there is also a need for the higher teams to be able to play their game too.
Sept. 1, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
The word of the day EQUALIZER!!!!!
Sept. 1, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
I don't disagree with you, pricer, but it's not going to happen you're way, unfortunately!
Sept. 2, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
The one-up rule has some merit, as long as the extra home-runs are outs.
Sept. 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Teams' ablities and hard work should be the only thing that "equalizes" them, NOT contrived rules or equipment.
Sept. 2, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Pricer-It is simple, yet it is not. The whole mindset of senior players is so different from when we were young. You see it all over here if you look for it. Teams getting moved up and instead of facing the challenge, they break up. Teams that move up and get beat regularly all over SSUSA to be moved back down. I have a little theory that I have seen in this area, but am not sure of nationwide. There are a lot of players around here who felt all of their careers that they never had a chance to win a national championship because they could not ever beat the highly sponsored teams. One quick one that comes to mind was Marodi's dominating the over 40's. Our Desperado team went in with the idea to win a couple games and it would be a successful tourney, but never with the idea we could actually win the tournament. SSUSA, by creating the age groups and divisions has given so many of these players, after some have played for 40 or more years, a chance to say 'We are National Champions.!!!' Gary19-while it is a stretch, at times, is it really such a bad thing?? The softball we knew when we were young is gone. It's not coming back. With apologies to Fastsam for bringing it up once more-the looks on my teammates faces when we won Reno last year was something I will never forget-and neither will they. Many other teams, I'm sure, have experienced that. Pricer-I believe the most we should even consider cutting down would be to cut one age group up to 70 (the 50-56, 57-63, 64-70 or similar) and cutting to 3 divisions. Major Plus is a whole 'nother thread, but SSUSA wants to make that work to have the division for the players that can and want to play that level.
Sept. 2, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Players will play in what diviions are offered. If you only offer two, they will still come. If you offer 6 they will still come for a short time. When they spend money to constantly play in 2-6team tourneys it will become an issue. We are already seeing and hearing this. There is no such division a rec in tourney ball. Rec is for your league play. Two divisions per age and I will bet the house it will not only increase teams traveling, but level of competition as well. I'm gonna try and experience with this next year. I'll try a couple tourneys in Michigan with my format and hopefully we'll see some positive results. How many of you would make the trip up for something like this?
Sept. 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Mark, is what such a bad thing? Contrived equalization?

If that is what you were referring to, then honestly I believe it is. I just know when my kids were in 12th grade they would not have been thrilled to win a Freshmen championship, or even JV for that matter. My son was a Varsity wrestler all 4 years of high school, but just to give him some extra work his coach put him in a JV tournament in 10th grade. He won Outstanding Wrestler, but has never looked at the plaque since and honestly I doubt if he even knows where it is. I know it is nowhere with his Varsity awards.

But maybe that is just me and my family.
Sept. 2, 2011
southernson
250 posts
I think this is a good discussion thread, appreciate the input of the group.

In AAA you play a team that hits 8 home runs, but their guys have spent far too many nights at the buffet, so they can't play defense and lose by 15. They exceeded the 3 home runs, but are they a Major or Major plus team....not hardly.

I'd like to see a universal home run limit applied across the board and have it be singles after that.

After all, the ultimate measuring stick in comparing teams is wins and losses within their rating.

Wins and losses, that's the bottom line.
Sept. 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
webbie the age brackets from the 60's on up need to be closer.as someone who plays 60 now,you can really tell the difference between the 50's and 60's.having a 57 or 58 up to 64 age group is gonna kill that group.the teams that have just the younger guys will basically just run over the teams that have a lot of 60 guys,or closer to the top of the age bracket,and you'll lose a lot of the 63-64 guys as the teams won't pick them up to play,unless they are top of the line players.maybe a 50-59 then start the 5 year breaks.

now on hr limits,i like them the way they are,just me tho......
Sept. 2, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
mad dog-I disagree to an extent with you. I have seen a lot of teams doing well and winning with a lot of guys that are actually old enough to play the next bracket up. The idea, though was offered as a way to consider making fewer divisions of more teams, and there really is only 2 ways to do it. Fewer divisions or fewer age brackets. I think 50-59 is too much, too.
Sept. 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
webbie ,i see it as a prol for the older guys,once you hit that 60 mark,there seems to be a good drop off,mostly in legs and arm strength.the bat is usually still there,tho.if you do a 57/58-63/64,those teams that are in the 62-63 age bracket will not be as competitive as the 57-61 teams,so basically they have to play for 2-3 years not being as competitive and most likely will drop,or not go to the bigger tourneys.just my thinking....now in the 50's i see a bunch of guys still playing down even when they reach 55,thats why i think it would make a better way to go,with just having a 50-59 bracket.i know its a hard thing to figure out,but hey lets keep mthrowing things out there and who knows,maybe we'll stumble onto something....

hey what about this

50-57
57-61
61-66
Sept. 2, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
There're many ideas in this thread. Good conversation. Here some of my thoughts so just read'em and don't take them personal.

1) Home runs should never be outs no what age group you are in. Kids to seniors. No one should be penalized for a home run. The one up rule evens things out no matter what age group or level you play.

2) There seems to be a few people who think that the home run is running rampant in senior softball. My team has only reached the limit once all year. I have only seen a few games where the limit was reached all year. What's the problem? If they're walks after the limit, who cares. Swing away.

3) Many think that senior bats turn everyone into a home run hitter. Not true. There's nobody on my team, down to a man that hits home runs now and didn't hit them when they were young.

4) How do you sand bag? If you win a national tournament, you get moved up. Ok, so some teams will break up and form new teams. That only works until they win again and get moved up again. The residency rules are as much of a problem as anything else. You're allowed to use players from touching states. Nothing more than All-Star teams. Change the residency rules and you'll solve a lot of problems. How about a 100 mile radius or only from your own state?

5) Age brackets will always be a problem. It's should be apparent that the younger your team is in any age bracket, usually means you have a better chance of being competitive. Of course there are exception to everything.

6) ISSA is looking to eliminate the Major+ level next year unless a team specifically requests to play that level. Now won't that be interesting?
Sept. 2, 2011
JamesLG
295 posts

SSUSA has made a lot of changes to our game in the years I have played and most of them I did not like at first but after getting used to them they were good for the game but I do wish they would re-visit the HR as out rule. People can say all they want about hot bats and good balls but for for a 60 year old guy to get punished for hitting a ball over the fance is just not right.

Thank You:

James
Sept. 2, 2011
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
A133, you've brought up some good points. I really can't think of an equitable solution for the residency issue, but the 100 mile residency requirement isn't feasible. There are many areas that couldn't find ten softball players within a 100 mile radius. This is particularly true in the west and northwestern states. Ask Mad Dog.

Just my opinion, but I do think that AA teams need protection. Theirs is the only bracket where HRs after the limit should be outs. Again, just my opinion. Thanks, Hombre
Sept. 2, 2011
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
A133 I agree that balls hit over the fence should not be an out. Maybe we should go the other way with the states rule. Why not have open rosters. Then, you could build the team you or your sponsor wanted. I know there isn't that much sponsorship in senior ball, so the distance and economics would play a factor in this as well.
Sept. 2, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Sponsorship at any level isn't what it used to be since the tax laws changed back in the mid 90's. No longer a write off. This and the economy is a huge reason teams don't travel as much and brackets are small.

AA teams can compete against higher teams with rule provisions. We just played a couple AA teams in prelim games in our last tournament. 2 home runs, 1 up and walks. 5 runs per inning. We also spotted them 5 runs and gave them an 11th player. Games were very competitive.

Ok, only allow players from your home state for residency. Open rosters just means, he with the most money wins. Though nice thought.
Sept. 2, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
AI33, I'm not sure what you just described in your last post, I would even consider as softball. Adding an 11th player? So if your playing two divisions up, do you add a 12th player?
Sept. 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
hombre,if the living within 100 miles was applied,it would not let me play here in texas,as where live there is no teams.the team i play on is from dallas and i live 150 miles away from dallas.the notheast would also have problems,i think the only states that would be ok,are cali,flor,and even ariz.
Sept. 2, 2011
jrhunch
85 posts
i would like to see 3 groups recreation,under 100 miles over 100 miles.i will guess that most of the super major teams are made up of rosters with touching states players and over 100 miles players.why should we have to cater to these super teams.why should teams from a local area have to recruit from other areas to compete?not having enough players from your area is a problem but that could be solved by playing in the over 100 mile group or playing recreation.there also could be exceptions to the rules for situations where there are not enough players.if there are no miles restrictions there at least there should be state restrictions.not everyone has to be world champs or the best team but everyone should have a chance to compete.in the old days the a and b teams competed nationally and the c teams competed locally.only the a teams got rings.then teams started forming super teams thus elminating softball the way i knew it.the a bracket was ruined because all the teams lost their players to super teams .today there are more e teams than there are a&b teams.the money is being made in the d&e brackets.the upper brackets are going to be extinct soon.could this happen to senior softball?residency rules should increase the number of teams.the forming of super teams is to be the best and not to compete against the best.many more thoughts but too long already
Sept. 2, 2011
garyheifner
331 posts
The issue always seems to be what to do once you have reached your HR limit. If you have your limit and a guy hits one out why not just count it as a strike and the guy keeps on hitting. If he had 2 strikes when he hit it-he is out.
Sept. 2, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Two Divisions + plenty of good competition. You can add a rec division after a year or two if it don't workout.
Sept. 3, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Pricer, You may not think an 11th player is softball. You must not be planning on playing when your 70+.

It's standard and in the rules for senior softball for women 50+ and Men 70+ to use an eleventh player. Also in certain situations as an equalizer.

There's also a local league here 55+ to 70+ that uses an eleventh player.
And no. you don't add a 12th player!!!!
Sept. 3, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
pricer,why do the guys who will not make the 2 div type teams have to wait a year or 2 and maybe even more to be able to play.and there will be plenty of these guys from the AA teams now that won't get on a team that is building to play in a 2 div age brackets and also a few of the AAA fringe guys won't make it.we will go down in total team numbers.next time you go o a tourney,see how many teams you could put together for just 2 divs from all the teams in an age bracket and make them at least competitive for play,and not just fodder for the other teams.
Sept. 3, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
AI33, I'm not knocking the players. It's the rules. If everyone is 70 years old, why do you have to add an 11th player? Would it not be ok to play with 10 each? MD, not keeping anyone from playing. I think we're selling all these so called AA players short. They want to play or they would have quit by now. They will continue to play in 2 divisions and more players might return in a format like this. Instead of coming up with reason for players to quit, find some that will get them excited to play. I think 2 divisions is a start. I'll make you all a deal. Come to Michigan next year and I'll host an old fashion 3 game guarantee tourney on a Saturday & Sunday. 2 divisions an upper & lower. How many can I count on? Give me some dates that will work for some of you?
Sept. 3, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3922 posts
pricer,if you have watched a 70's game you would see why they use 11 fielders.i'm not selling anyone short,but why would a team form with nothing but AA players to go get beat up by mostly M and and M+ type teams,as that is what will happen,they won't go.you might get some fringe AAA teams that can get a couple of M type players to play with them,but that is it.with you dropping the div to 2, will give them a reason to quit and not return.you'll see team totals drop by a 1/3 i bet........
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