http://www.mikensports.com/

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 2 members: 12X12, JD-53; 63 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: Rules of the Game-Love them

Posted Discussion
Dec. 22, 2011
garyheifner
334 posts
Rules of the Game-Love them
Try and remember that the rules we play under are not mandated by a group of dictatorial idiots who sit on a throne and try and stick it to the senior softball players. They are voted on by panels from various organizations and have evolved over the years to best serve the MAJORITY of senior players. Also remember that the majority of those who make the rules don't simply stand back and watch, but the majority actually play on teams that play under the rules. Ranting on this site does not change the rules. Rather, a well thought out letter to the SSWC regarding possible rule changes are usually carried to the rule meetings for consideration. Other than going to a 1-1 count, can't think of a thing I would change. Well done rules guys.
Dec. 22, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
I would love to agree with you, Gary, but just can't. However, since I decided that I would not join in any more "ranting" on the message board or writing any more "well thought out letters" regarding improvements to the game, I will just try to enjoy it "as is", because it's not changing any time soon no matter what we want.
Dec. 23, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Being in the majority does not necessarily equate with being what is best.
Dec. 23, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1931 posts
Best is in the eye of the beholder.
Dec. 23, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4248 posts
...best serve the majority.... I believe the majority of senior players don't not speak up. There are, ball park figure, about 10k playing. I doubt even 200 post here. Maybe 2k posters if you use every board out there that accepts rants and raves, but still not a majority or quorum representation given I think more young guys spilt the s...t on them over all.
For me, 0\0 start. However could play under what is set since both sides play under same. What doesn't is the mixing of ages and ratings in brackets. Over all how it's been done is pretty good but mot perfect in a non perfect world. Worse yet is the 1-3 team division\brackets. Everyone might as well stay home, save the money for another event, and draw straws for the win. Those 1-3 team types are questionable.
Stay safe over the holidays and may next year be great for you.
Dec. 23, 2011
Tater50
333 posts
Gary: "over the years to best serve the MAJORITY"

I have only seen one Player Poll. So, I cannot agree w/your statement.

The ONLY way that a "MAJORITY" can be obtained is by a Yearly Player Poll or Occasional Player Poll. When I state Player Poll: those that ACTUALLY attend these tourneys; if you are not on a valid roster & have participated; your input is do-diddly squat!!!

I have played for 12 years & have not seen more than one Player Poll.

The Majority never vote on the ideas.

I have yet to get an answer as to why we have to have a Yearly Summit Meeting instead of a Yearly Player Poll.

Is it due to:
1. Cost
2. Time
3. Other.

Until we get a Player Poll; the Majority never speaks.

What I want MAY not be what the majority wants.

JMO
Tater50
Dec. 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Tater, it might very well be that there is a Yearly Summit v. a Yearly Poll because they know FAR fewer will attend the meeting at their own expense than will vote in a poll. This way they don't have to even act like they are listening to a large number of the customers.
Dec. 23, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4248 posts
Polls can be a useful tool. SPA has conducted 2-3 that I participated in and if I remember correctly a couple changes were implemented from each because of input that was given from the players. Nothing major. but change none the less.
That said, they can also be worded to 'get' the desired response as well.
The wording is of utmost importance and must be clearly worded, hopefully neutral in content, to get a valid or honest result.
I think many, most, do not participate because they know it usually doesn't change anything.
I feel that nothing ventured is nothing gained, akin to not asking a question for fear of the answer or maybe the only stupid question is one that was unasked...

#4 vacation...

???
Dec. 23, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
I would love to see the mat at home plate gone. The corners of the plate are important for the pitcher. Just for the record, why do we use the mat. If someone is going to use "it's easier for the umpire". I would like to know if they are giving a discount for us making it easier? Good topic and Happy Holidays.
Dec. 23, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4248 posts
Pricer,
Up until about 2 years ago I played in some T's that had just the plate. They also used a "zone" for strikes combo. If the ball hit the plate it was a strike, if the ball went into the 'zone', past the plate, it could be called a strike. Trouble is, they rarely got the calls right... Won't mention the assn but not this one, they varied from T to T. Some with the matt others w\o it... you didn't know until you showed.
Those were mixed T's, young guys and seniors playing against each other too...
Happy Holidays...
Dec. 23, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Pricer, the reasons I have heard on here many times for the mat are "the umps are blind", "the umps suck", the umps are the reason we lose games", and "the umps suck".

Truth is no version of baseball/softball was ever intended to have the same size strike zone for all batters, and that is just what the mat does.
Dec. 23, 2011
Tater50
333 posts
Simpler Solution to the Player Poll:
If mass eeees are too much a problem or too expensive or too time consuming then;
Take every current manager & every new manager; get them to eee all of his rostered team & find out what they want in SSball; then the team votes as opposed to ALL the players; would more consolidate the voting.

Give the team managers 2 weeks to respond; after that, their vote is null. Send all the amendments, changes or whatever to the respected associations. I have NEVER had an AD or TD in 12 years to ask me what needs to be changed; the minority is speaking!!

I am tired & I am sure others are of the constant threads discussing this that or the other, when these topics could be eliminated by a POLL.


Tater50
Dec. 23, 2011
DCPete
228 posts
Sure the mat creates a 1-size-fits-all strike zone but the reality is without the mat most umpires will still call about the same strike zone for all hitters. The umps tend to make far worse ball/strike calls without the mat than with it and as far as the corners go, the 1-piece mats now come in a variety of different sizes some of which are larger than any regular strike zone area.
Dec. 23, 2011
garyheifner
334 posts
The mat is great. Hit the mat-strike. Miss the mat ball. I remember well the 25 some years in U-Trip, seven innings of bitching, moaning and groaning of too deep, too short, that missed outside, that caught the edge, that wasn't under my back shoulder etc. Ask the umps if they would like to hear that stuff for 7 innings from 65 year old men. All you hear in our game is an occasional chirp regarding arc height. I will also disagree with a few of the replys. At many of our tournaments, I have walked around and briefly asked strangers what they would change and I mostly get shoulder shrugs. I STRONGLY believe that most opinions people would have regarding rule changes would NOT be for the good of the majority but rather those that would best serve the current personal (team make-up)of their team and their teams chance to win in their current ranking/level of play.
Dec. 23, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
I have been asked to vote on rules and what is wanted by SPA.
SSUSA has not asked.
The MAT is one of the greatest thing that has been added
to senior softball. Griping and bad ball/strike calls has
been cut by 97% at the Tour I have played at and gone to
almost 0 at league. The height is sometimes a question but
after one BOO from dougouts it is almost always corrected.

Basically the number people that complain seems to be about
3 or 4 and they are on this board. The hundreds I have
talked to at tournaments mostly only comment about the
time running out and on a rare ocassion the CR.

And we have so many tournaments most teams can win at least
one a year.
Dec. 24, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Pete, we all have had our own experiences but mine are much different. There is no way the umps allow as much landing area for strikes without the mat as the mat allows. Just not close. And sure the umps will miss some ball and strike calls, but they miss far fewer than the players make mistakes.

Gary, umps hearing chirping from players is part of the game. I umped for years, and always just took it in stride. Everyone was looking for some edge, as it should be.

I know the mat is staying, and the CR, just further bastardization of a perfectly good game.
Dec. 24, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4248 posts
Gary19,
You said it, " Everyone was looking for some edge, as it should be."

This is also where the use of the 'senior bats' comes into play... they are legal
for this assn and many others,
Have a good new year.
Dec. 24, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I know they are legal. Still cause more problems than they are worth, but yes I am well aware of that.

Though they provide NO edge since everyone seems to use them.
Dec. 24, 2011
taits
Men's 65
4248 posts
Gary19,
Agreed on no edge, per se.
Perhaps consider leaving Sr bats alone for the coming year. It will honestly make you more valid here.
You could say it's bat behavior modification.
Stay healthy and safe, Merry Christmas to you & your family.
Dec. 24, 2011
garyheifner
334 posts
Still trying to figure out all the problems caused by our bats as stated. Due to events on our team, I ended up pitching around 30-35 ?? games. Bet I didn't have a dozen balls hit at me and only 1 required a really quick defensive reaction.
Dec. 24, 2011
kbl
Men's 60
523 posts
guys, i guess the older i get (65s), the more i dont like senior bats on D. i play 60s and EH and OF on 65s. it's like when i played OF against the kids when i was 50. it's hard to catch up to alot of balls hit to the OF. rules are the same for both teams, so i keep trying my best. c u in Florida in Jan.
MERRY CHRISTMAS, ken
Dec. 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
well guys,the mat is wider than the plate for ssusa and spa,take a look at them...i have seen a bunch of umps in call strike,call strikes as if they were using a mat,don't bother call the ball that curves after it crosses the plate and tell you it landed outside.seen called strikes that hit back where the end of the batter box ends,and that is a lot longer than any mat i have ever seen.also the mat is not new,i have used mats since the mid to late 80's,so it has been around a long time,nothing new.

my only thought for a change,go to a 1-1 start count,and maybe modify the cr rule to allow 2 max per inning.

happy holidays every one.
Dec. 24, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Longer games that cause time limits.

Artifically more scoring that cause run limits.

Outfielders who have to artificially play deeper, do more running, and create more needs for "courtesy" runners.

Unnecessary increase of risk of injury for the oldest, slowest group playing the game.
Dec. 24, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
pup, what will the 1-1 count do for the game?
Dec. 25, 2011
neck10
476 posts
pricer you do know the matt has corners and if you hit one its a strike no questions ask,not an umpires judgement its a strike.even if you hit the very front of the matt its a strike matt is better for the pitcher than the hitter,if ball hits matt its a strike no umpire to bail hitter out its cut & dried,doesnt make sence why you would want to get rid of it being a pitcher but I guess it isnt hockey is it?????????????????????
Dec. 25, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
neck, no doubt it is better for the hitter, though worse for the game.

Hitting the front edge and having it be a strike is absurd, but I know that is how they call it. The bad part is I can throw a pitch that comes nowhere close to crossing the plate that is a strike. It makes for just a very large and bizarre strike zone.
Dec. 25, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Wow, I said that wrong. No doubt it is better for the PITCHER.......
Dec. 25, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
I think that anyone who thinks the mat is better for the pitcher, has never pitched. Any pitcher who thinks it's better, is and not been much of a pitcher. JMO
Dec. 25, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
I know it is just your opinion, but how is it not better?

A) It is huge, much larger than a real strike zone for literally any height batter. While I understand strike zones should be vertical, I also understand most umps call where it lands. And very few, if any, umps will give as much landing area as the mat allows.

B) I can hit the friggin' front edge of the mat/plate, not even on top, and get the strike call. That should never be allowed, but is routinely.

C) I can throw a pitch from an extreme inside or outside release point, just nip the side of the mat on the release side, and get a strike called. Yet that ball NEVER crossed over the plate, or even over any part of the mat for that matter.

All I won't get called is the flat pitch that drives through the strike zone, doesn't touch the mat, and might get called a strike using a real zone but won't with the mat. But even that pitch might gets swung at anyway, and if it isn't then I will just live to throw another pitch.
Dec. 25, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
G, let me point out hitting the plate with ball was never intended to be a strike. Never have liked the mat, in fact I would not pitch on the nite in league ball when they switched to the mat. Personal thing! I like the sweeping breaking ball that catches the plate but if batter is way bat in box, it makes a tough pitch to hit. JMO
Dec. 26, 2011
Mr. Manassas
223 posts
Nothing wrong with the mat and I pitch. It does seem to standardize the strike zone at least a little across the country. It does take away the sweeping curve to the outside but gives it back to the inside. I like it when I am up to bat because it keeps that umpire who likes to call the deep strike from making you swing at balls over your head.
Dec. 26, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Jeff, it might not have been the intention, but obviously it is the result now. And with that it just makes for way too big of a strike zone.

Manassas, the problem with this standardization is that it has standardized a zone that is one size fits all, but in reality fits very few. Nowhere, in baseball or softball, should the strike zone be the same size for a guy 5'6" and one 6'6". But unfortunately with the mat that is exactly what we have.
Dec. 26, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Manassas, they never gave back that inside pitch. It was always given, because it was a strike. All the mat has done has really taken away some vital areas from a pitcher. They give you length from the front of the plate to the back of the mat, but your throwing directly to the hitters strength. There really is no longer a strike zone, but a strike spot. Between the knee's & shoulders is a thing of the past. JMO
Dec. 26, 2011
Mr. Manassas
223 posts
I respectfully disagree. I think that you can still make it difficult for the batter by how you attack the mat/zone. I cannot tell you how many umpires that I have had that look straight down at the area behind the plate and call a ball or strike regardless of where it crossed the plate.
Dec. 26, 2011
neck10
476 posts
we had a pretty good pitcher in florida last year (randy johnson)from indianappolis could hit the plate from any angle did a lot of your usssa junk but threw strikes all the time.he was also the MVP at the asa for us this year.matt doesnt bother him he just ask me ever now & then did that ball hit the matt!!!!!!!!
Dec. 26, 2011
neck10
476 posts
what happens when the ball hits the plate in play with no matt ball right well what happens when the ball hits the same spot on batter but this time theres a matt there strike right my point being(which I see 80% dont)if you dont ajust your stance the same exact pitch is a ball in one leauge then its a strike in senior ball.I see this even more in senior leauge in traverse city
Dec. 26, 2011
Omar Khayyam
958 posts
The mat was a new experience for me 11 years ago when I began to play senior ball after decades of pitching with younger players. I like it. It standardizes the umpiring and there is certainly a lot less complaining from both teams.

Don't know why Gary19's worried about tall batters and short batters. If you're tall and stand mid-way or deep in the box, I'll pitch you short. If you're short and stand mid-way or near the front of box, I'll try to hit your rear shoulder. Solution for the batter is easy: tall guys stand in front part of box and hit with power the deep pitch; short guys stand back and easily step up to slam the short pitch.

I'm not sure the mat helps the pitcher. For years in league play especially, when I was familiar with the umps, I knew how to gain an edge by pitching balls that the ump would have a tendency to call strikes. Used to infuriate the batters. The mat has taken away this edge (except for height calls) and this favors the batter.
Dec. 26, 2011
neck10
476 posts
gary19 I agree with you if the batter stays in the same spot as he's used to being in it's a great advantage for the pitcher.the guys that(which I cant)can run up on ball it really doesnt matter.
Dec. 26, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
neck, that is probably true, but why should guys have to change how they hit just to accommodate a rule (mat) that serves no purpose?

The mat is a huge advantage for the pitcher, and makes some pitchers better than they would be and probably better than they have ever been. Gee, kind of like the special bats. The game is becoming too socialistic. =(
Dec. 26, 2011
Mr. Manassas
223 posts
I respectfully disagree. I think that you can still make it difficult for the batter by how you attack the mat/zone. I cannot tell you how many umpires that I have had that look straight down at the area behind the plate and call a ball or strike regardless of where it crossed the plate.
Dec. 26, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Manassas, that is sometimes true, and all the time incorrect. But the mat not only gives more consistent balls and strikes (I suppose) but also has so many inherent problems ranging from its excessive size when you include the plate to its erroneous "one size fits all" approach to the strike zone.
Dec. 26, 2011
garyheifner
334 posts
Gary, can't figure out some of your comments. Back in my U-Trip days I pitched and had many offers from top U-trip teams. Coached HS football and could rarely play in nationals. Had opponents tell me I was one of the best pitchers they faced. My strike zone was HUGE. Got more deep calls that you could ever imagine.

In one game in Phoenix this year I was off my game. Had several dozen that missed the mat by about 1/2 an inch. My catcher and I could only shrug and laugh. I am sure with no mat, I would have gotten more than half of those called a strike. I have pitched 1000s of games and I prefer the mat by a mile. The inconsistency without the mat by umps is rampant and would definately have a negative impact on senior softball.
Dec. 27, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Gary, you really can't compare u-trip strike zones to ASA/SSUSA. Just nowhere close.

Of course as a pitcher you would prefer the mat, for the reasons I have given. But can anyone please stop with the umpire baashing? Umps don't lose games, players do.
Dec. 27, 2011
tinman
Men's 50
75 posts
Gary,I pitch and agree 100% with your last comment about the inconsistency without the mat.I have gotten frustrated at times with the size of the mat but think its one of the best advancements of our game.
Dec. 27, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
garyh,hate that crap,been there done that,i find when that happens i back up from the rubber some to compensate for over throwing,keep the same motion as you were using with the long throws,just back up.

tinman i go both ways with the mat,been times i can love it and times i hate it,but for consistency with umps need the mat.i throw a knuckleball that can move quite a bit at times and don't get the crossing the plate strike that lands out side of the plate strike zone.also been working on a curve(small one) but when it lands outside very rarely get it called for a strike even tho it will cross the plate.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners