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Discussion: Reclassifying Teams

Posted Discussion
Jan. 29, 2013
Allan55
79 posts
Reclassifying Teams
I see a number of teams were reclassified. I understand the process. If teams are too powerful or are not competitive, things must be done. However, there are some things I don't understand. How does Robert's Construction 55 move down to major. They were the only team to defeat MTC55 in the World. All of their games were competitive. They were eliminated 35-34 in the World. That team is tough.
Also...how does Rochester 50 major plus move down one year after winning the 2011 50 major World Tournament. They didn't even play in the major plus World this year. What message does that send? Any 50 major team that was moved from major to major plus need only sit out the next World and petition to move down.
Jan. 29, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
980 posts
don't know about the above but it looks like the Major plus division has over 20 teams this year compared to just 12 active last year...
Jan. 29, 2013
softball4b
Men's 60
720 posts
I have no personal knowledge of the teams in question, but I believe if a roster is completely reworked then a team can appeal to have their classification changed.

The name alone does not mean a team should be classified in a particular division.

Jan. 29, 2013
GI
Men's 60
160 posts
Thanks for info on changes terry and rest of group. I still believe we are the blessed ones for getting to play a kids game. Competetion is always a way to find out your value. I look forward to having a chance to win some games and maybe a tournament this year at 55 AAA level, I will not miss Gonzales team out of texas - they are a monster of a bunch who I suspect could compete at highest of levels. Drillers and Just for fun are a great bunch of guys who also should find success at higher level. Again I am just thankful to be on field at any level and enjoy hanging with the players who have lit me up for so many years. Some of you have asked about CJS coach Barry he plans to come out and coach team at Bullhead March 1-3rd just to get out of house and se how he feels. Will be great to see him out again , I also understand Pat with double new knees may be out to watch or play. See you on the field.
Jan. 29, 2013
softball4b
Men's 60
720 posts
At one point the board had 6 members and 145 anonymous viewers. The most I have ever seen on the website at one time.
Jan. 29, 2013
Tim Millette
476 posts
I see our MTC 50 team went to Plus in the 50s.

Who knows??? Maybe it was the correct thing to do for 50 Major?

Don't know what getting bumped will mean but..... Like I said on the Plus issue before....until SSUSA make it harder for one group or a couple groups of players to dominate year after year....Major Plus is not to enticing.

Our team HAD already voted to go to two Worlds....we had scheduled the ASA senior Sorlds in Oregon in early June and the SSUSA in Vegas....

Don't know if it changes anything but....a seven or eight team 50+ with two/three teams that have Players that have won numerous SSUSA 50+ worlds doesn't seem to enticing for a 50 team that doesn't have a player that has won one ring in 50s.

Since we agreed to two worlds...we are now looking into the new USSSA 50 Worlds in St Louis as another option..

Who knows? Maybe It will be a bigger tourney for us to consider?

Besides...many of those bumped teams just might enjoy the USSSA game and....it looks like for many of the 50 bumped teams st Louis is closer then Vegas.


Many of the other plus and major teams might even go to MO....

Anyway.....it's going to be interesting to see what plays out.

I have missed the USSSA game.
Jan. 29, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Whatever happened to the mindset to take the challenge, practice hard and LEARN how to beat these teams?? 'Oh, we're going to give up before we even try' is a hunk of baloney. Tim, you are on the SPA Impact players list. There must be a reason-not too many guys are on that list. But this whining is terrible. And running away from a challenge is weak. How can you be happy winning consistently at one level, when there is a higher level to challenge? I don't get it.
Jan. 29, 2013
Tim Millette
476 posts
Sorry, I just voice what I believe.

And yes. I understand ssusa's dilemma with Plus ball.

I just don't believe having the same groups of players dominating year after year is something I would vote to support.

I have openly stated what I believe would help turn over Plus ball and grow that Division. No more then 6 or 7 ring winners per plus team until thy reach. The next age group then it starts over.

I don't know what our team will vote to do but I can tell you...my vote would be to try plus at the western world in NorCal, look into the USSSA 50 World and decide what we want to do with Vegas later.

I always loved the USSSA game...if they are allowing all the USSSA rules on 1-1 and pitching....I'd vote for that to be our only fly out tourney if I had my way.
Jan. 29, 2013
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Tim's Presentation always seems to Draw Negative Reviews, but I do agree with a couple of his view points on this topic. Arizona Elite hasn't Won a WMC either, however, I also understand that the SSUSA needs to make difficult decisions regarding Fair Play for the Good & Best Interest of the Program ! ! !

Arizona Elite Embraces this New Challenge, as many of our Team Members have Played at the Highest Levels in our past. If we or any other Team can't cut the Mustard, there is an Appeal Process in place. However, for Pete's Sake, give it your Best Effort ! ! !

Congratulations to Teams that were Bumped and Best Wishes to All Teams in the 2013 Season ! ! !


Regards,
Jeff White #7
Arizona Elite - Major Plus
Jan. 29, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
Jeff-I wish you luck-you guys have a heck of a team-having been thoroughly spanked by you guys last year several times, yes you can compete and win at that level. Go get'em.
Jan. 30, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
I can tell you first hand about Rochester 50's. The lost both pool games in Plant City this past weekend. From there they went on to the championships, not sure if they won.
It looks as if they have picked up at least one fantastic hitter since last year.
Maybe the committee will take a closer look at them!
If they did win, congrats!!
Jan. 30, 2013
TAT22
14 posts
Tim M- I think there is going to be a pretty good influx of new guys coming into the senior game this year and next, myself included. Starting out with a Major team this year, hope to make it to M+ next year. My brother plays on a M+ team and I hope to play with him again or against him as we live in different states.
Jan. 30, 2013
400
Men's 50
76 posts
Jeff (JDUB) you guys had one heck of a year and I can not recall you all finishing anything less than 2nd in most anything you guys entered. The question always was when not if you were moved up. Knowing the players that you have congratulations on your 2012 achievements and good luck in 2013.

Regards,
Dave Niles #25
Fangrabbers
Jan. 30, 2013
southernson
254 posts
Is it possible to win the AAA TOC tournament two years in a row 2011 & 2012, be moved and play the 2012 year in Major, and yet for 2013 play in the TOC AAA for the third year in a row?

SSUSA, how does this happen?
Jan. 30, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
Short answer: YES

Longer answer: Teams are invited to play in the TOC at the same age group AND rating level they had at the time they won the TOC Qualifying tournament that resulted in earning their bid. This is regardless of any subsequent rating change(s). If a team wins multiple TOC Qualifying events in a single season, they are required to play at the highest of those rating levels for the TOC.


Jan. 30, 2013
usmc0311
32 posts
rochester 50 did win the championship.They won the if game. Major team yes major plus dont think so
Jan. 30, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
Beas, what's your opinion?
Jan. 30, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
Do I think Rochester 50's could win a 50 Major Plus national? No
I do think they would be competitive.
If all the Major Plus teams that didn't have much of a chance of winning a national were moved to major that would only leave 3 or 4 team in that division. That's the problem with that division now.
Teams need to be moved up, not down.
Jan. 30, 2013
usmc0311
32 posts
so with zero chance to win they should be a plus team? That doesnt sound right to me!
Jan. 30, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
So what's the solution, just have 4 teams in M+?, just 2??
Jan. 30, 2013
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
BruceinGa didn't say zero chance of winning. He said "they would be competitive". That means they could win any given tournament depending on their better than normal play...or just a couple of lucky breaks. Most baseball teams have little chance to win the World Series, some aren't even competitive, but often a team that some thought had "zero chance to win" becomes the world champion for a variety of reasons (pitching, peaking, couple of batters get hot, umpire error, injury, etc.). When you're too good for most major teams, the result is to move up to Major Plus. BruceinGa saw last weekend's games and it might have been a mistake to move Rochester 50s down if they are dominating again in Major.
Jan. 30, 2013
usmc0311
32 posts
who did they beat? last weekend? major or major+ team?
Jan. 30, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
Omar, last week was an ISF/ISSA tournament. They don't have Major Plus team, although Team 1 (rated M+ by SSUSA and SPA I believe) was there playing in the highest division, Major. By the way, Rochester beat them.
Jan. 30, 2013
usmc0311
32 posts
watching them play i beleive they are a major team. Watched them get killed by a ga team. But did see them beat up a good fla team with a few very long hr
Jan. 30, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
Okay let me get this straight, please help me to undestand this. Rochester wins the 2011 50 major world, they go undefeated in 6 games, they score 167 runs which averages out to 27.83 runs per game. Then they get bumped to major plus for 2012 and they sit out and do not even play one event and now 2013 they are dropped back down to major. If these are the facts which are present on this website by SSUSA, this is B.S. Why wouldn't every team that got bumped do the same.
Jan. 30, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
Rochester did pick up on guy that was hitting MONSTER shots!
usmc0311, I'm sure you saw my team, Southern Elite, play. We should be moved down to AAA, right?
Jan. 30, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
So they also improved their team. Please help all of us to understand.
Jan. 30, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
LeeLee - Just for a little factual accuracy, the Rochester 50's/Genesee Creamale team played in two SSUSA TOC qualifier events during 2012 as a Major+ rated team, the Atlantic Coast Championships and the Northeast Championships. In those two events combined, they had a record of 0-9, and an aggregate run differential of -82 (average of -9.1 per game.) They met the criteria for our National Ratings Committee to move them back down to Major. The were not inactive in 2012, as has been incorrectly stated.
Jan. 30, 2013
usmc0311
32 posts
i do agree your team was a little over there heads as a major team i never saw the rochester team play before did they improve from the last two years?
Jan. 30, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
usmc, we played them two years ago in manassas in the quarter finals. It was a close game but we forfeited to them. One of our players was ejected and we only had 10.
They were a very good Major team then also.
Jan. 30, 2013
The Tone
1 posts
Well, I don't understand how they moved my Sports Center 50 team from Major to Major Plus. In 2011 we won the AAA Worlds in Phoenix, so we moved to Major last year.
We played 3 tournaments last year, 1 had 2 Major teams and we finished 2nd, another had 3 Major teams and we finished 3rd and then we went to Vegas and had a good weekend and went 6-2 getting beat by MTC by 4 and ENR by 1. Because we had a good weekend we get moved up?
We litterally went from AAA to Major Plus in 2 years OH and our average height and weight is 5'9" 180lbs.
Jan. 30, 2013
tg69
304 posts
Bruce,Get this.High Street Bucs wins the Winter Nats. and we finish 2nd.We get bumped to m+ and they stay M.Go figure!!!!
Jan. 31, 2013
Allan55
79 posts
LeeLee,
You are correct.

SSUSA Staff,
Inactive no. A no show at the World in Vegas...yes. Years ago I played on a major plus team. We were not a team that could win or even be competitive. It did not matter what we did in tournaments during the year. We could have gone 0-9. That would not have mattered. As one gentlemen (who wished to remain anonymous), informed me, our team was going to have to play in the World M+ tournament no matter what. After we went 0-5 (the games were not close), we petitioned to move down. After some resistance, (if you can believe it), we were moved down. The point is...we had to play. And that is the way it should be. If Rochester had played and gone 0-5 or 1-4, I would say it is a no-brainer. However, they didn't. There should be a rule that states a team must play in a World first before an appeal can be made. My question is if Rochester blows teams away in the middle of the season, will you move them up?

BruceinGa,
I also feel the same way. There are teams that are competitive but are not favorites to win. I know of a M+ team that went 3-2 in the last World, defeating the eventual champion, and petitioned to move down and were granted the move to major. That shocked me! Another M+ team played a TOC early in the year and went 3-3 and defeated the second place team in the tourney and petitioned to move down and was granted the move. Go figure. I also know of a 50M+ team that has played under .500 the last two years and has been denied a chance to move to major. They did not have nearly as good a chance to win as the teams I mentioned above. I don't see why a rule is not in place to automatically move down any team that goes 0-5 or 1-4 in the World. That would make it easy.

The Tone,
I hear you. Your team is solid and they play hard. However, the team lacks the power the M+ teams have. I also feel you should be given another year before moving up. Good luck.
Jan. 31, 2013
southernson
254 posts
SSUSA, I still don't get it with Florida Automated Shade and your response.

They win the TOC in 2011 and 2012 in AAA. By your own records they are denied a move back to AAA in Jan 2012, which means they were rated Major at that time and previous and all thru this last year with no rating change. So any tournament they won would have been as a Major team in 2012.

But they are playing AAA again in the TOC? Please lay out the timeline so we can all understand, we don't.


Jan. 31, 2013
boston
297 posts
The Drillers 55 are now playing 60's. do they still have to play major?
Jan. 31, 2013
melvin13
1 posts
Yes we won the TOC, played against 3 Major plus teams, by the way all three teams were merged teams, from Multiple States, we are from Rochester, and one Monster who you all are talking about, and yes he even shaves his arms....

On to the comments, we dont back down, we go to the tourny's on a year to year basis, Should we spend $10000.00 to go to Vegas or some other tournament to play against 1 team? did that in Myrtle beach. and won the US National Championships......does that make us better or worse? dont know. we just play

The plus rating is a joke....period. We play against a major team, Metro Stars a solid major team and have to give them 5 runs or another defensive player because no one else won a tournament and is ranked?

We play hard, as the Staff member said , we go to the Tournaments as a plus team and get beat by good major teams, these teams that we can play with, on an equal field, and even beat them.

We are just a bunch of guys who love the game, play "wicked hard", and beat some good Major teams along the way.

Congrats to ROchester50-Genesee Cream Ale out of Rochester, NY - my team, for being the ISSA World Tournament of Champions "CHAMPION".
Jan. 31, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
southernson: Florida Automated Shade won the 2011 Winter Nationals (a 2012 Tournament Season event) in the 50-AAA Division. They defeated Chicago Prime (26-15) to earn their berth in the 2013 TOC. Again, teams are invited to play in the TOC at the SAME age and rating as they were when they won their qualifying tournament, regardless of any subsequent rating change(s). FAS was re-rated to Major on 01/25/2012, which was after their Winter Nationals championship. Lastly, the TOC is NOT a qualifying event for any subsequent TOC. Teams must WIN in the following Tournament Season, other than the TOC, to earn the right to return. There are no "TOC Defending Champions" berths for the subsequent year TOC.
Jan. 31, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1952 posts
boston-I think they need to play major plus since 60 M+ is equivalent to 55 major. (lol)

Congratulations to all my friends on the Drillers for the recognition---and the challenge.
Jan. 31, 2013
brian warner
Men's 55
48 posts
We got bumped to 50's Major+ as well. ( KC Barons) And I don't have a problem with it. This is where we want to be. But my problem is the home run rule. Why do we have to drop back down to the Major home run limit when playing them? We are giving up 5 runs and giving back home runs. Why not give the lower ranked team the choice, play us even up at there rules. Or take the runs and we keep our home runs? With there only being 22 Major + teams in the country the chances of running into one before Worlds is not likely here in the Midwest. Or set it up where the lower ranked team can have the 1 extra run per inning if they can earn it. But if they can't score it they don't get it.
Jan. 31, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Good morning BruceinGa and everyone else on the board.

Thanks for throwing me under the bus Bruce! But now that you’ve called me out I guess I’ll throw my 2 cents in.

Before giving my opinion I’d like to share my 50+ Major+ experiences so that you’ll know where I’m coming from.

First off, I believe the best players (offensively and defensively) are playing and strive to play at the highest classification in their age group – Major+. I’ve seen posts that said the best defense is played at the lower classifications which made me smile and bite my lip. I’d agree that there are some good defensive players at the Major, AAA and AA level but until they’ve had to play defense against a Major+ team then you can’t compare them. When I played Major softball, I watched the Major+ teams when I could because that’s where I wanted to be. While I enjoyed winning tournaments as a Major team/player, I didn’t even begin to believe that it was the same as winning a tournament as a Major+ team/player. But that’s just me.

I play with Team 1 Sports out of South Florida. The team evolved from Morgan Keegan to South Florida Renegades to Team 1 Sports. The reason we are classified a Major+ team is because we played in and won the 2011 ISA World Tournament in Cocoa Beach. And I’ll be honest with you I don’t think we should have been bumped because of this tournament. I don’t remember all the particulars but I think there were 3 or 4 50+ Major teams plus a 55+ Major+ team and a 60+ Major+ team. In the end, we ended up beating Hollis Appraisals (60+ Major+) in the finals. It’s still a “World Championship” and SSUSA move us.

Like every other team we had the choice to either break up or move up. There was some discussion among the team and I sent an email to the team giving my opinion. I believed that we should accept the reclassification and see if we were as good as we thought we were. If that meant that we had to give runs/players to a team in a lower classification then it would test our mojo as a so called Major+ team.

Since being classified Major+, we’ve played in 5 tournaments that were truly Major+ tournaments. I say “truly” meaning that the bracket play was between teams classified Major+:

2011 SSUSA Winter National – We played against 2 other teams – AMR and Hollis Appraisals. We went winless in the pool play and then went undefeated in bracket play as the #3 seed.

2012 SSUSA Atlantic Coast Championship – We played Major teams in the pool play which didn’t mean squat because there was only one other team in the Major+ bracket – Rochester. We played Rochester 2 out of 3 and managed to beat them in the first two games.

2012 SPA World Championship – There were 4 teams – OKI, TSC/Howards, Hollis Appraisals and us. We split the pool games beating TSC and losing to OKI. In bracket play we finished 3rd sandwiching a win over Hollis in between losses to TSC.

2011 SPA World Series – We played pool play against one Major team and was scheduled to play the 2nd pool game against Hollis Appraisals – the other Major+ team. Both teams chose not to play the pool game because we’d then turn around and play the same team 2 out of 3 for the championship. We ended up beating a tough Hollis in the first two games.

2012 SSUSA Winter National – There were 5 teams in pool play but we had the same 3 teams in bracket play as the 2011 tournament. We were fortunate to win an “if” game over a very good AMR team.

As you can see, my experience in playing Major+ teams is very limited. We did play a few Major+ teams when we were Major and even then I believed the equalizer was unfair.

Team 1 is the team that Rochester beat to win the ISSA/ISF World Tournament of Champions. If I’m correct they came into bracket play as the #4 seed, defeated Southern Elite, Veltri and Team 1 to be the undefeated team in the finals. We were able to be them in the first game but came up short in the “if” game. Congratulations to Rochester for their hard fought Championship.

But is Rochester a Major or Major+ team. In my limited experience I’d say that they are a very good Major team. Can they compete at Major+ - I believe they can. We played them 4 times last year (ISSA/ISF WTOC and Atlantic Coast Championship) and were lucky enough to beat them. If they were 0-9 playing as a Major+ team in SSUSA during 2012, then I know where 4 of their losses came from (Atlantic Coast Championship). 2 of those losses would have been to Major teams that they gave the equalizer to and the other two losses to another Major+ team. Someone else will have to chime in regarding the Northern Championship. There were several players that I recognized from the 2012 squad but there were also some new faces. And there have been several comments about “Killer Kirby”, an impressive hitter in deed.

We didn’t play Veltri but I couldn’t help but notice that they now have several of the players I saw playing with ENR last year. Should that be considered with their move from Major+ to Major? It’s hard to say because you’d have to weigh in how much of an impact these players had with ENR winning the SSUSA Masters last year.

Someone mentioned Florida Automated Shade. While I don’t know where they got their bid to the upcoming TOC as a AAA team, I’d have to say that they probably belong at the AAA level. I know they played in the 2012 Spring Nationals as a Major team and I don’t think they won a game. I can’t say for sure but I don’t think they were very competitive. I hope they don’t take that as a slam or me trying to belittle them. I don’t know where else they played as a Major team so …..

One of the problems I see is that when a new team pops up, they can choose to be classified where ever they want (this is probably a bad assumption on my part). The roster can be scanned by an individual but without some type of data base of a players history, how would you know who they played for and what those teams have won. The team gets away with playing at a lower level until they are eventually moved up.

Classifying teams is a difficult task for ANYONE! I believe that if you’re going to do it there are a lot of factors that must be taken into consideration:

Who are the players on the roster; Who have the players played for in the past; How has the team faired in tournaments they’ve played in; How do the teams they’ve played against rate; What are the average number of runs scored per game; How many runs do they give up per game. These are just a few things that I would think could be considered.

SSUSA has at least started a process that will compare data rather than just a person’s opinion of that team. But a “qualified” person’s impression must also be considered. I’m hoping that as time goes along, SSUSA will revise their process and come up with something that will put teams in the correct classification.

I know I’ve rambled on here and overstayed my welcome. I’m sure I’ll get hammered for my opinion but that’s what you ask for when you post here.
Jan. 31, 2013
southernson
254 posts
SSUSA, Thanks for your patience. OK think I got it,
FAS team won a National in AAA, which qualified them for a 2011 TOC AAA event, and they won the 2011 TOC in AAA and remained rated as a AAA team.

Then they won ANOTHER National in AAA the next year which qualified them for the 2012 TOC, and they won the 2012 TOC AAA tournament for the second year in a row.

Then before they are re-rated to Major, they win ANOTHER National in AAA 10 months later, which now qualifies them for the 2013 TOC AAA event, and have the luxury of playing AAA teams in the 2013 TOC, a tournament they have won the last two years.

Imagine the reaction of telling that story to players.
Jan. 31, 2013
faz2
2 posts
As coach of the Blue Chips (ex AA now AAA) the new rating system is flawed big time. Our team played in 9 tournaments this year,counting the TOC in feb. 2012 and Phoenix in 2012, in these tournaments we won the Midwest championships, we had one 60 AA team to beat to qualify for TOC, one 55 AA and one 55 AAA and in both cases we had the extra fielder plus we were informed that one of those teams would also qualify. Of the eight tournaments we did not win our best finish was 3rd, 90% of our roster has been the same for the past 6-7 years, this year our team hit 4 home runs (for the whole year) and one of those was an out because it was the second one in the same game. Does that sound like a resume of a 60 AAA team? Well good luck to all who have been moved up or down.
Jan. 31, 2013
southernson
254 posts
Beasely,
Still think FAS is a AAA team? Then FHC should be interesting this year.... Let's see what are the FHC rankings in Jan 2013. 1. Good Times 2. Blast, 3. Hollis, 4. Team 1, and 5.Florida Automated Shade...

Trust me, there's nothing AAA about that group...
Jan. 31, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
Beas, I knew you would like to comment on this! ha ha!

And Melvin13, congrates on the win! It's tough to beat a team if everyone throughout the lineup hits!
Jan. 31, 2013
LeeLee
86 posts
Thank you SSUSA for clarifying your process, I guess the results will determine if it was correct. I would think it wouldn't be if these teams win in LV or even place in the top 5. JMO
Jan. 31, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
Southerson,

Yes, I think that Florida Automated Shade is a very good AAA team.

And I also think that you can't compare Florida Half Century with SSUSA, SPA or any other organization because there's a big difference in who can play on what team.

For instance, the team playing as T1S/SSC has a few of the players that play with Team 1 Sports Softball but we have to complete our roster with other players within our area.

If you're trying to say that the FHC T1S/SSC team is equal to Team 1 Sports (i.e. a Major+ team) then that would also make Good Times, Blast and Hollis Major+ teams because they are ranked ahead of us. Since we went 1-3 in the first tournament, I'm sure there will be some movement in the rankings. Does that mean that anyone ranked ahead of us should also be Major+?

In the 2012 SSUSA Winter Nationals, FAS played in the Major classification. They scored 10, 17, 15, 4, 14 and 8 runs for a total of 68 runs or an average of 11.33 runs per game. Their record was 3-3 (1-1 in pool play and 2-2 in bracket play). And that was against other Major teams. Does that sound like a Major team to you?

Does FAS get hot and play better at times, of course they do. Everyone does. Do they have bad times and play worse, of course. But what is the average of their play? What do they consistently do?
Jan. 31, 2013
Tim Millette
476 posts
Brian, from the KC Barons.

I think it's being played near you guys....

Have you heard anything about the usssa 50 senior worlds being played in St. Louis this year?
Jan. 31, 2013
birdie
Men's 60
676 posts
tg69, That is hard to believe that the team comes in second gets moved to Major+ and the first place teams gets re-rated to major. Or they just stay at Major in this case.I think that HSB started the year as a Major+ team and then got re-rated to Major and won the Nov. tourney. It looks like they were re-rated Major in Oct 2012 and won the Nov tourney. I could be wrong on this.Maybe just an error. Thanks Harry
Jan. 31, 2013
southernson
254 posts
Beasley,
Of course I'm not comparing FHC to SSUSA, but I'm not going to see ANY of those top FHC teams in AAA either.
SSUSA disagreed with you and denied FAS a return to AAA from the Major rankings in their recent appeal.

But they will play in their 3rd consecutive TOC AAA tournament, after winning 3 AAA Nationals, and 2 TOC AAA Nationals. Not whining here, you play who they put in front of you. It's a little hard to explain to players....

BTW, you guys when you have a full team Team 1 has a really good group. We played you in the SPA 2012 at Jax and lost...

All the best to you guys this year....


Jan. 31, 2013
Allan55
79 posts
melvin13,
Over the last number of years the World Tournament has had the best field of teams. So when you say you don't want to spend $10,000 to play one team, that doesn't fly with me. However, I will agree with you on every other TOC I have played (with the exception of Reno, NV). The teams just aren't there. Currently, we are faced with moving up to M+. Most of the tournaments we will play will not have many teams. However, I know that the best field will be in the World.

I also understand how major teams feel about moving up. A number of teams are not M+, but they are, in the eyes of SSUSA, too powerful for major.

My question to the SSUSA (brought to my attention by Beasley) is when does a major team become a M+ team, such as the case with ENR players (a team that won the 2012 50 major) moving to Veltri, a major team? How many ENR players have to join Veltri before it becomes M+ also?
Feb. 1, 2013
usmc0311
32 posts
this seems to be a problem in all of softball. money is the factor. getting the most bang for your buck. being a major plus team limits the amount of teams you can play against on a even playing field. so i do agree with melvin. and his team rochester is a major team not a major plus team. seems to me they do it right. all there players are from the rochester ny area!!
Feb. 1, 2013
Beasley
Men's 50
169 posts
@Allan55 - Please remember that my intention in pointing out the changes to Veltri wasn't to get them to move back up. As far as I know they followed the rules set forth by the sanctioning bodies and applied to move back Major. They may have even done this before they knew they were going to have roster changes.

I was merely trying to point out that I applaude what SSUSA has done to get teams into what they believe is the correct classification. But it's a first step. I believe that the roster composition plays into a team's rating. And you can't rate a roster without rating the players in some manner.

As others have pointed out, the Impact Players List is flawed because players are put on it because their team selected them for the All Tournament Team. Does one tournament make you an impact player?

I talked about this thread with another member of Team 1 Sports Softball and we both agreed that this process isn't going to solve the problem over night. It's going to take years and it's going to be painful in many ways.

Teams/players aren't going to like being told they can't sandbag at a lower level. They're going to threaten to play somewhere else. While it's easy to say good riddens, it's going to cost the association some money. For the integrity of the game, they're (the association) going to need to stand by their decision and let them leave. When they find out that noone follows them and they don't have anyone to play, they'll be back.
Feb. 1, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
Allan55 - More than three (see below)

SSUSA Rulebook §14.1(1) • DIVISIONS OF THE SSWC

B. Major division – Comprised of teams that compete to determine the World Champion, Major division. A Major team is one with the potential of becoming World Champions in the Major division and is too strong to compete in the AAA division. Major division teams:
1. Have a five-run limit per inning, except for the final inning of the game in which each team may score unlimited runs.
2. May be invited to the World Masters Championships based upon their qualifying standing.
3. A Major team roster shall not have more than three players with a team affiliation rating history during the two previous tournament seasons greater than Major.
Feb. 1, 2013
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
The challenge is still to correctly appraise a player's true skill. Everyone knows that if you built a Major All-Star team, composed of just players who never played Major Plus, you still would end up with a Major Plus level team.

I know of two outstanding shortstops in Major level ball in my age group. To my knowledge, neither has ever played for a Major Plus team. Their teams don't play all that many tournaments, so they might be players who aren't much interested in travel. But if one of them were on my team, it would have an impact. The same goes with the best couple of outfielders in our division—either or both would upgrade any Major team (drop your weakest outfielder and replace with one of these rabbits).

As a pitcher, I know which players are hard outs. Some hit close to 1.000 against me (and other pitchers). In addition, they are very competent fielders and runners. Put a couple on a team and that team scores more runs. And we all know the studs who hit the long ball. In the older age groups, not many can hit them out of a 300 or 320 foot park, but even reaching the fence is an asset against older outfielders with less speed and weaker arms. And then I think of the most powerful hitter in my age group, a guy who can hit 400 feet, and who has never played on a Major Plus team, for whatever reason. He's good for one or two wins in any tournament.

My point is that adding 4 or more Major Plus players to a Major roster is properly going to result in being rerated. But there are many, many excellent players who have never played on a Major Plus team who are nonetheless impact players, and adding 2 or 3 or more of them to an existing Major team will make that team too strong for the rest of the Major teams.
Feb. 1, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
Staff, after reading you latest post, I believe there needs to be some re-wording to #3. Most of Rochester 50's were major plus in 2011 so by #3 they can't play major in 2013.
Feb. 1, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
BruceinGa • When a team is re-rated, in either direction, the rating history of the players who were on the team when it was re-rated also have their experience history changed accordingly. Their players will now all show a "Major" history. As a practical matter, one of the conditions of the move-down to Major is a prohibition against them adding any Major+ history players (other that the ones who were on the team in 2011/12). Should they choose to do so, they will be moved back up to Major+. Right now, presuming no roster changes so far in the 2013 Tournament Season, their Major+ player count is "zero."

NOTE: This "condition" of the re-rate is imposed on all teams that are moved down in order to prevent potentially "loading up" after the move-down with players from the rating level they just departed. This is not unique to any age or rating level.

Feb. 1, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2614 posts
Thanks, Staff. That's what I expected. I just thought it should be spelled out in the rule.
Feb. 1, 2013
Allan55
79 posts
SSUSA,
Thanks for the information regarding players moving up.

Beasley,
I understand your points and also appreciate what the SSUSA is doing. Reclassifying teams is not an easy process. However, questions will arise and clarification will become important so everyone can be on the right page. As far as creating "an impact players' list," I also feel there should be a new method of determining players' abilities.

Omar,
Good viewpoint as usual. I also feel two or three players can make a huge difference. That is why SSUSA will be watching how the teams they lowered perform in tournaments this season. I know SSUSA doesn't want teams they lowered to dominate the bracket. That would defeat the purpose and lose credibility with its members.
Feb. 2, 2013
curt
Men's 50
11 posts
You need more Major+ teams....How about every team that recruits players from outside their state are Major+ ? It's hard to believe most areas of the country 'need' to go outside their state to field a team. If a team is picking up players from other states, their not doing it to be a AAA team.
Feb. 3, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1118 posts
Historical footnote: As recently as the 2007 Season, all teams played at the rating level of the highest rating experience level of any player on the roster. There were no "out of rating" opportunities available to allow teams to play at a lower rating. This (inadvertent) policy change, initially at 5 players, now at 3, had a significant impact on teams being able to avoid playing at those higher levels.
Feb. 3, 2013
boston
297 posts
Webbie: Drillers 60's did get moved to majors even though it is there 1st year in 60's. The team has been revamped since several of the players stayed 55. They picked up about 4-5 AA players to get the team started. Bu

What I have a hard time figuring is how the Drillers 55 and Spurs 50 got moved to majors. they really haven't won anything. The Drillers did win SW Championship and I don't remember the Spurs only in their second year winning anything. I won't even go into the Desperado and Rio Grande 55 AAA situation
Feb. 3, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4305 posts
SSUSA:
I would definitely question the last post here you made, especially for the time frame of last 5 years. 600-700 or so teams, & thousands of players at the different levels and ages.
I can possibly think of a few, going back that far, but that is not my concern, I figure it is one of the excepted exceptions within the operational hit\miss spectrum.
This is one of the main reasons I'm a proponent of the open (viewable) rosters like NCSSA has or at least had viewable rosters and was kept up accurately by Bob Strand. Now its another story now.
Back then I have found underage players, players on two teams when playing on only one team was the rule for that age. I'd bet the same could be found within SSUSA, you are NOT INFALLIBLE, we all know that.
The checks and 'balances' as it were, with hundreds of players watching over the rosters is bound to find discrepancies. Your crew who does not do this as a general rule, let alone the 'puter pgm' can miss for various reasons.
But like other issues the want to keep that info in house and private remains your priority.
I can understand many of the 'rationale' for some issues but the players also have a vested interest in all this. I just do not agree with some.
Food for thought at least, again.
Feb. 3, 2013
Allan55
79 posts
taits,
I am also a member of NCSSA. I would have to agree with you regarding rosters that can be viewed by all. I feel if the SSUSA allowed rosters to be viewed by all, more eyes would make SSUSA's job easier. This is the players' association, and when it comes down to it, the players want rules to be adhered to and fair. That is the only way the association can grow stronger. After all, I would like this association to be around if my sons want to play.
Feb. 4, 2013
softball4b
Men's 60
720 posts
In my opinion:

I believe that rosters should be available to the public. The governing bodies go to a great deal of effort to work with teams and advising managers when developing rosters for teams that want to play in a specific division.

Having a team’s roster online, name-age-city is beneficial to all. Rosters would only be posted after the team had played in a qualified tournament. It is important for the governing body to have leeway in qualifying a team roster, but it would go a long way in eliminating the mystery behind one team being moved up or down.
Feb. 4, 2013
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
curt,
You might be onto something there about touching states. Good idea.
Feb. 5, 2013
Capt Kirk
400 posts
In 2012, our teamn played in the mens 60's AAA division, in the two (2)tournaments that we played, in which SSUSA posted scores, we were 2-4 in bracket games (I don't consider the seed games as an indicator of a team's strength or weakness). Our run differntial was +9 in our two (2) wins and a -34 runs in our four (4) losses, our appeal was denied to be rated as a AA team. We lost seven (7) players (starters) from our 2012 team. We wiil have a team in 2013 but we will not be as strong as we were in 2012. I believe that the formula that SSUSA is currently is using to rate teams needs to be revised to reflect a team's true level of competiveness, we would like to be able to compete when we go to a major tournament.
Capt
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