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Discussion: Bats

Posted Discussion
Feb. 20, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
Bats
I always find it amusing that everyone is looking for the latest greatest bat.. My feeling with all these bats is that once they are broken in, they are all within a few feet of each other! We hit them all(BATS) in BP every year and the plus and minus of all these bats range from size of sweet spot, feel, durability as so on... At the end of the day if you nut all of them, they will go the same distance!
Feb. 20, 2013
SLOBALL1
Men's 50
173 posts
Swing.I gree with you 100%.It may take more break in time from one bat to the next but, they all will eventually get there.It just takes time to break them in and most want the bat "hot out of the wrapper" and won't or don't want to take the time.
I personally have never swung a senior bat in tournament play. Have used the same bat since 2008 and it is as hot as any senior bat out there.
Feb. 20, 2013
Snot Nose Kid
40 posts

Oh Sure!

Now you post this thread....

AFTER....

I just ordered my new latest and greatest bat!!!!






Feb. 20, 2013
hombre
Men's 60
220 posts
What I find amusing is the seemingly perpetual discussion about the ability of manufacturers to produce a bat with great performance as well as great durability. Folks, Miken has the rosetta stone. The early Ultra IIs had both. My first Ultra II lasted two and a half years. That's about 200 games a year and batting practice. I only had the one bat and it hit as well as any bat out today.

Today's Ultra IIs last me about 350 hits. I hit much harder in 2003. Miken's business plan changed from one of making a truly great bat to one of planned obsolescence. If they chose, they could produce the same bat again. I know that there are quit a few players still swinging those early models.
Feb. 20, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Built in obsolesce, like cell phones and all.
Any way if its leagl and affordable why not get one. I doubt anyone is using a CU31 bat or any other bat but up to the 'standard' as it were, of an U-2. New bats come out each year, one may say one will and doesn't, just takes your money . But yes, better bats do come out and "keeping up w\ the Jones's", does have its positive side.
Feb. 20, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
SNK I posted this for that reason, I posted it so that guys looking for bats will think about what I said.. I see the Ambush and the Twilight and now the Dirty all come out and they are the Exact same barrel and composite material as the Centenarian... so in my thinking if I can buy any kind of senior for 150 or lower.. they will all do the trick! I have a friend selling a ambush 27 oz for 110 bucks... anyway.. good luck out there with your bats!
Feb. 20, 2013
Wayne 37
202 posts
Ambush 27 ounce for $110.00 The same bat Gary 19 swings. Is that your friend....haha?
Feb. 20, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
Come on Wayne, you know better than that... G19 is old school.. he's swinging softball Ash! ;-)
Feb. 21, 2013
ju25
Men's 55
139 posts
Get in line, the Monsta has arrived! Buy whatever feels good in your hands, proper break-in, then game use only. I swing my USSSA bats for bp, and some of them are not far behind senior status. I have broken ASA $ USSSA bats over the years, but the only senior bat that broke on me was a Worth 454 that was a bad bat, that Worth replaced.
Feb. 21, 2013
tattooball
619 posts
The truth about softball bats is that there is a perfect bat for every player, you just have to figure what works best for you.

Endloaded bats should be hit by everyone. The guys that think they need a balanced bat to hit backside are nuts. The more weight you put at the end of a bat the more it will maintain speed at impact.

As for 10 inch vs 12 or 13 is just a matter of preference although for many players a 10 inch will hit better. If you move the sweetspot out 1.5 inches like on a 10 inch you will learn to hit the ball where the bat is traveling at a faster speed. For every 1.5 inch towards the end of the bat the speed is increased by 5 mph. For example the tip of a bat may be traveling at 100 mph but the sweetspot is traveling at 80 mph. Now hit the ball 1.5 inches out and it is traveling 85 mph. You need a bat that has a sweetspot that far out to get the advantage. The other side of this is if you are not stong enough to keep the bat at speed you will lose more bat speed than you gain. For example, if you hit the ball where the bat is traveling at 85 but are not strong enough to maintain the speed you may drop to 65 or 70 mph during impact. If that is the case a bigger barrel bat is better for you. Impacting the ball 1.5 inches down will lessen the force against the bat and you may maintain a higher bat speed.

So not every bat is for every player, you should hit several and find what is working best for you. Just because you are samller doesn't mean you not getting good bat speed and the opposite holds true also. They key is to get as much weight as you can past the point of impact and maintain the speed. Then look into getting the sweetspot farther out if you can

We are working on a couple of bats right now that we may have some better options on this.
Feb. 21, 2013
?
82 posts

tattooball

"So not every bat is for every player, you should hit several and find what is working best for you."

Where or how will I able to do that on the Combat Dirty?

By the time I wait for some one else to have one to try out...some other new "Latest and Greatest" bat will come on the market.



Feb. 21, 2013
the wood
1079 posts
? -
What difference does it make if another 'latest & greatest' comes along? If you've found the bat that works best for you why do you need a different one?
As for trying the 'Dirty'... hit a gray Combat that conforms to your needs (EL or bal, proper weight) and go from there.
Tattooball is probably the most learned guy on here when it comes to bats. He understand the physics of bats, he's been involved in the design and testing of them and he knows how to use them. The parts of his post about end loaded bats was/is enlightening for many people. But his comment that you copied is very rudimentary (everyone has a perfect bat)... I remember hearing that 30+ years ago. But it's a statement that needs repeating.
If you want some insight into which type of bat may work best for you call Kevin (Tattooball) @ 845 532-2668. We've been working with him for 6 years and he has always given freely of his time and his insight.
I am assuming that you do not already have the 'right bat'. If you do, my input is useless.
If you don't, I'd first consider whether I want to replace it every 300-500 swings or I want one that will last at least an entire season. Combats have shown that they are, far and away, the most durable senior bats.
I am not a bat sales person and am not being remunerated in any way. This is just free advice that might just be worth what you paid for it. :-)
BW
Feb. 21, 2013
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
?

I don't get on here very often but Kevin gave a very good answer and your retort is uncalled for. There are a few that you should pay attention to on this board and Kevin is one of those with superior knowledge in all processes of bat/ball evolution as well as flat out a monster hitter.

Where do you go to sample other bats? Well - let's see - do you take BP with a group of guys? Do you play on a team? Is the truck at any tournaments you play? Know any bat reps?

You do not have to hit a ball to "feel" what weight and balance feels good in your hands. Pick up a few different bats. When you feel one come through the plane of your swing and gather speed through toward the end you probably have a good candidate to ask a team/BP mate if you can take a few swings with their bat. If you watch the truly good hitters in the on deck circle most are working on balance and timing thoughout their swing. Emulate them - you can feel when a bat drops or drags = probably not your bat to swing. You can also feel when a bat it too light through the swing - again probably not what you need.

It's all balanced and rotational based on repetition and practice. Put in the work and gain the results.

Looking for a "magic wand" to rescue you from yourself is the worst thing a serious player can do. Take the time to find what works for you and work to make it work better. Then stick with it.

There is no bat in the world that will improve poor mechanics. And remember - each time you swing a different bat looking for the next best thing - you are in essence changing your mechanics. You can break down yourself just through constant change. We all have different swings and styles - it's a marvel to watch - we all do the same thing differently......find what works for you and do what it allows you to do. Then make it better.
Feb. 21, 2013
tattooball
619 posts
Ok lets talk about the latest and greatest bats. They ALL still have to pass the test as far as performmance there isn't a big difference from one to another. Sweetspot sizen has alreadt been done also. All of the better bats have about a 7 inch sweetspot. Now if you have a 7 inch sweetspot on a 13,12 or 10 inch it really doesn't matter the barrel size, it is still 7 inches.

Feel you can change, but it doesn't mean the bat will hit farther. It may feel better and you think you are hitting it better.

Weight is another thing you can change, as I said the more weight you have past the point of impact the better. If you have 2 bats that weight 28 oz and 1 has 2 oz end and the other has 3 oz end the 3 oz will hit the ball better if you can swing them the same speed. Most players can't that is why not every bat is the right one for you.
Feb. 21, 2013
zonk
56 posts
Kevin: thanks for taking the time to submit very useful information on bats.
Feb. 21, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Tattooball,
Kevin your words: "... as I said the more weight you have past the point of impact the better."
I honestly doubt that PAST the point of impact or contact is going to increase distance but would agree that AT the time of contact. it would gave. Ones follow through and all leading up to that point from the time the ball was pitched all (batter mechanics, ball, bat weight & type) all have something to do with the performance.
Most every bat is dead from about 1.5 - 2" to the end cap or the taper from what i've read. The 10" bat like the old Miken Edge worked pretty well.

What ever happened to the chip for bats?
Feb. 21, 2013
tattooball
619 posts
taits past as in the contact point of the bat and ball. Inertia is going to be better.

The chip is still working 5 years later but the associations wont adopt it.
Feb. 21, 2013
ju25
Men's 55
139 posts
I was under the impression that the max endload allowed was 1oz., but I see that Easton has a 30oz. with a 4oz. endload. If these bats are a true 4oz. EL how do they pass the test.
Feb. 21, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Ball was already struck at that point in time, so what effect would bat have on the balls flight since it's already in motion, outgoing as it were?
Sorry about the chip. I believed in it as a counter Dr device.
Interesting about assn's not wanting it...I'd think the manufacturers would be the ones who have the say.
Feb. 21, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1222 posts
Scott - I think Kevin meant PAST=BEYOND (as a measurement of distance beyond the sweet spot), rather than as a measurement of time.
Feb. 21, 2013
crusher
Men's 70
389 posts
No End Load for me, they do not swing good for me.

I swing a 30oz balanced. Overall bat speed is good and good after striking the ball. I also have a 26 oz Demarini Classic Double Wall End Loaded, well, the 30oz Black Cent swings faster.


C
Feb. 21, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Doubt any of us read minds here, but could be that... could be.
Doubt too the outer most part of the sweet spot area say the 7 inches referred to, has same results as the center of the 7 inches...
With what you say I'd think too, if the mind is working in all this, the outside area closer to the end cap vs the taper would have better performance. With any barrel length as well. Guess that could be called leverage.

I didn't refer to time only after the hit, which I guess could be construed to as a time frame.
Any way, knowing Kevin's background I do trust him I just also like more direct answers as it were. You know that. But I 'see' what your saying.

Anybody get this damn Flu? Fighting it for a week now.
Feb. 21, 2013
?
82 posts


4x4

HOW DO SWING A BAT THAT HAS TO BE PRE-ORDERED?

AND IF YOUR SWINGING IT MOST LIKELY IT'S BECAUSE YOU ALREADY BOUGHT IT.


Feb. 21, 2013
Pull My Finger
69 posts



Where do you go to sample other bats? Well - let's see - do you take BP with a group of guys? Do you play on a team? Is the truck at any tournaments you play? Know any bat reps?

So 4x4
How many swings did you get with the Combat Dirty?
Feb. 21, 2013
the wood
1079 posts
PMF & ?:
"From my limited observation and relying on the comments of others, this bat swings like the original grey combat."
This was stated by one of the guys that actually did swing a test model.
Again, you might start with a gray Combat. See if it feels good at all to you. If it does maybe you order a Dirty or perhaps one of your friends/teammates will have one that you can try (by that time).
Or... you buy one now and if you don't like you might sell/give it to someone else that it looking for the 'latest & greatest'. If this is the case you could then look at the new Miken or Reebok.
Or... you can always send a check to the GBC folks.
It seems to me that you have lots of options.
BW




Feb. 21, 2013
HJ
Men's 70
440 posts
Kevin, I think I followed most of your thoughts.
I understand that the more mass hitting the ball puts more energy into the ball, I understand that
pushing the sweet spot out means the bat at contact point is moving faster than it is closer to the hands. I also understand the balance point affects MOI. What I don't understand is the discussion about speed of the bat after contact and I am aware Mr. DeMarini thought this important. My research based on a physics professor who consults with Combat is that the ball is in contact with the bat for such a short amount of time that speed of bat after contact is irrelevant. He even has a picture on his website of a MLB player hitting a homer when the bat was literally thrown at the ball so there was no batspeed after contact. Please explain how batspeed after contact is important and how this was measured and proven. I am not being argumentative I just want to understand your point.
Feb. 21, 2013
?
82 posts


the wood

Thanks for the info.

I have the original gray combat and it has the 1.21 bpf also the senior stamp on it.

So if it swings like the gray and has the same stamps, what makes the Combat Dirty (latest and greatest) any better?

I believe the "Latest and Greatest" bats from all the companies are nothing more than gimmicks to make buyers think they are getting something special when all they are getting is the same old thing repackaged.

This is what "swing for the fences" stated at the top of this thread.





Feb. 21, 2013
crusher
Men's 70
389 posts
HJ in the short amount of time of bat/ball contact The Bat Flexes inward, this is when the energy is transfered from bat to ball, if you can not keep the bat speed high the bat will be robbed of its energy and the transfer will not occur in a high percentage. The bat must keep moving to transfer it's stored energy. A certain percent of energy is used in changing the direction the ball is traveling.

If you watch a bat in slow motion sometimes the bat actually stops moving foward when it strikes the ball. You can even see this with a golf club, especially an iron. Therefore it is important to maintain your swing speed thru the strike.

C
Feb. 21, 2013
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
Thanks Bob

? - I'm not looking to swing the next best greatest bat. The ones in my bag will do just fine (end/full load Combats & Reeboks with one surviving Red Miken).

I guess if you really want to swing a certain bat - either wait and see who has one around where you are or Cowboy Up and buy one for better or worse.

PMF - Zip swings with the Dirty - do have 2 original Grays (28 & 30 FL) which seem to swing about the same per other comments. Both speak loudly when used. Don't need to go around swinging anything I'm not sure will get the results that I want. It's not a fad - it's a sport.

I don't think any bat company is going to selling any bats that turn balls into ballistic missles any time soon. Even if they did they would go the way of the Gray Ultra.

Then it's just a matter of choice and solid mechanics - and work. Amazing how many have lousy swing mechanics and think another bat is going to cure it.

It's not the arrow - it's the Indian - to quote a BP partner while we were watching someone swinging making the same mistakes over and over getting frustrated......

Feb. 21, 2013
the wood
1079 posts
?
I think that the 're-packaging' is just a common strategy of all types of goods (cell phones, computers, cars, etc.), a way of selling more goods to the same folks. If you become content w/ your bat & if it is durable you won't buy as often as others. There are enough real improvements to keep the 'latest & greatest' dream alive.
Throw in the 'exclusive rights' element whereby only certain reps can offer certain products, you get different names for similar bats.
If you like your gray combats you're ahead of the pack, so to speak. That was me for 4-5 yrs, until I tried the white centenarian. I buy into ALL of the things that kevin has said about it.
For what it's worth, I like the EL Melee, too. Though I do worry about it's life expectancy, right or wrong. I hate breaking them in MORE than buying a new one. They were available a year + before I bought one.
The white combat can b had for less than $150 and you can get it now. But you might want to try someone else's first.
BW
Feb. 21, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
I will tell you guys a story that happened last year... I tried the green Demarini last year because one of our players AKA Factory hitter was sent this bat before coming out on the market...

The thing I noticed about the Green Demarini AKA the Pickle.. was that it hit out there with my Reebok! Although I prefer my Reebok, the Demarini was holding up and hitting as far.. differences I noticed was that the sweet spot felt smaller to me and had a different feel.. We had an opportunity to buy in to a deal from Demarini and I said let's do this and promoted this bat to my teammates.. Well after one Tourney, we had guys ready to quit the team if we kept swinging these bats. LOL

I felt bad because I was the one that was promoting this direction.. Hell I always felt if I was swinging well, it didn't matter what we swung.. Anyway, back to the story the guy that wanted to quit our team if we stayed with the Demarini is still swinging his Demarini this year even though this year we can swing anything we want... I chuckle every time I see him swinging it, knowing how he felt... I'm one who thinks what ever bat you get, if you give it enough time you will end up loving it at some point.. I am swinging my Reebok's balanced and end-loads... I like the feeling of them and feel the sweet spot is little bigger for me so these bats soot me.. I get about 165 to 200 swings out of them and this is numbers I can live with...
Feb. 22, 2013
tattooball
619 posts
It is pretty simple, you can swing a bat at 100 mph to the ball and lose 25 mph if you don't maintain the bat speed past the ball. The contact time is very important, the longer the better. Matter of fact the PGA tests their clubs and balls by using contact time and it actually works better than the test done with softball bats.
Having more weight at the end of the bat and maintaing the bat speed within 10% has proven to increase bat ball contact time do to increased wall flex. If you look at a bat being swung by a human not a machine in slow motion you will see that the bat actually bends forward just before and during contact time. Therefore more weight will increase the speed as the bat is moving forward to punch the ball.
Feb. 22, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
Great posts Kevin! I'm also a proponent of maintaining batspeed after contact. Maintaining that will also give a great follow through. Check out all the youtube videos of the big hitters, just about all have a great follow through!
Feb. 22, 2013
surf88
Men's 60
873 posts
Great posts. Good info. Won't be too long now. A great one is coming.
Ed
batman@andrewsdev.com
Feb. 22, 2013
tattooball
619 posts
So true, I will have a few of my new ones today for testing.
Feb. 22, 2013
Wayne 37
202 posts
FYI~tattooball,

I would be willing to bet nobody playing senior softball can produce 100 mph bat speed. That is more than what the very elite of the elite touch in MLB.

Yes, the longer the ball stays on the bat, the more distance you should get.
Feb. 22, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
Think we need to get some swing gauges out and figure out what our bat speeds are.. I have done this with Golf clubs... it's fun!
Feb. 22, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
Wayne 37, I might just take that bet. I clocked a 48 yr old at CST two years ago at 103 mph, using a Swing Speed Radar. I would think that he can still break 100 mph.
Feb. 22, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
Burce and Wayne. I went online a looked up major league bat speed.. I found that the Internet is full of crap for the most part.. they were posting bat speeds of major league players as ave speed 76 mph and had Barry Bonds bat speed at 68 mph in 06... and then they have josh Hamilton bat speed at 120mph.. I think something stinks with the great disparities..
Feb. 22, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
Burce and Wayne. I went online a looked up major league bat speed.. I found that the Internet is full of crap for the most part.. they were posting bat speeds of major league players as ave speed 76 mph and had Barry Bonds bat speed at 68 mph in 06... and then they have josh Hamilton bat speed at 120mph.. I think something stinks with the great disparities..
Feb. 22, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
sftf, I'm sure it depends on the device used to measure the swing.
My swing speed is usually between 72 and 84 mph with an endloaded 30oz bat. Using a balanced 28oz bat it did get to the mid 90's but that isn't a swing that I would use in a game.
Again, a radar gun might read it differently than a Swing Speed Radar.
Feb. 22, 2013
swing for the fences
Men's 50
999 posts
yes, Bruce... I see a lot of inconsistency in the postings on the net about this subject... I remember for awhile MLB games were posting bat speeds while the games were on TV.. I was seeing Bat speeds in the mid 80s to 90s.. So on the Bat speed issue I don't know what to believe.
Feb. 23, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
I find that a speed reading device is helpful to measure any increase in batspeed. For instance, if you're thinking that you need to make some changes in your grip, stance or swing, make that change and then measure your speed.
It wouldn't be good if you would like to compare your speed to someone else that used a different device.
Feb. 23, 2013
.
18 posts

Ray DeMarini, in his second video, I think was titled "Ultimate Bat Speed" used a Bat Speed Meter.

And if I recall correctly he was getting a bat speed of about 75 mph on the meter. It was the same video in which both Ray and Larry Carter were hitting home runs.

I still have the video, but don't have a VHS player that works.



Feb. 23, 2013
tattooball
619 posts
The number I use is only for example, just like in cor testing. If the balls is fired into a soild wall at 100 mph and returns at 44 mph it is a .44 cor ball. We only fire the balls in testing between 86 and 88 mph but it sure is easier to explain it using 100 mph. Bat speed is measured so many ways you can't go byanything other than what you have seen. If you put a metal tape at the end of a bat and record it your bat speed may be close to 100 mph. I have seen it done this way many times. TPS would test guy's swing speed at events this way. That same swing would show 80-85 at the barrel of the bat.
Feb. 23, 2013
BudLeftField
56 posts
Bomani sports research DVD-Mark McDowell had his bat speed measured at 93.3 mph. Then he used a wiffle ball bat and swung it at 121 mph. He suggested that you could improve your bat speed if you used this technique regularly. I normally swing a 32 oz. bat and then a 34" broom stick when training, but I could use any suggestions to make more consistant solid contact at the plate.
Feb. 23, 2013
HJ
Men's 70
440 posts
One day three of us measured bat speed using different weight bats and balanced and end loaded. We found balance point of the bat a major issue in batspeed and often a heavier bat swung faster. Bruce nailed it about using it just for yourself and changing variables. Comparables to others just doesn't hold up. Bud, you are using a muscle memory technique. The theory is that when you swing a light bat very fast your muscles learn and remember the movement which then translates when you use a heavier bat. Mike M has
a whole program on his website using 3 different weight bats.
I also think Bud nailed it about consistency. The
good hitters consistently make solid contact and we hackers don't. Probably a bat that gives the hacker the most consistency is the best for him irrespective of batspeed, balanced or unbalanced or whatever. There are many softball worlds out there, and the fact that ultras last 2 or 3 years for the lesser hackers just proves it.
Feb. 23, 2013
tattooball
619 posts
That is why I say there is a perfect bat for everyone, you need to find which one is best for you.
Feb. 25, 2013
Wayne 37
202 posts
My personal feeling is that people over swing with these senior bats. What I've started doing is waiting as long as possible for the pitch, take hands to the ball with the bat head slightly back, and then pop my wrists to create that extra thrust. Especially good for hitting ropes to the opposite field.

Your mileage my vary.
Feb. 25, 2013
southernson
259 posts
One things is for sure, it doesn't matter as much which bat is used if it's shaved or otherwise altered.
I saw more altered bats this last weekend than I have in 9 years. Something has to be done about the cheating that occurs, it's more rampant than most will ever admit.
Feb. 25, 2013
JamesLG
303 posts


southernson:

Where did you see all the altered bats and how did you know they were doctored? I thought that had been cleaned up in the senior game.

Thank You:

James
Feb. 25, 2013
Full Monty
79 posts

southernson:

Was anybody caught or busted for using the altered bats?

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