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Discussion: You make the call part 643

Posted Discussion
Aug. 31, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
You make the call part 643
This play happened in a mens game, not a senior game, i was umpiring. Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits a grounder to third. Ball takes a bad hop bouncing off the thirdbasemans shoulder--he went down in pain. Alertly the shortstop hustles over and picks up the ball, looks to throw home, no play. Then he sees the runner from second stopped halfway in the baseline between second and third. He runs toward him while that runner was backing away trying to avoid being tagged and was eventually tagged for the third out well after the runner from third scored. Does the run count?
Aug. 31, 2013
Mulewhipper
47 posts
Good one...I believe the run counts as you have described the events.
However...if the shortstop would have just stepped on third for the force out...the run would not have counted.
Aug. 31, 2013
BudLeftField
50 posts
Hi stick8-If the shortstop runs to third base or throws to third base for force out ,for third out ,the run would not score, In the case of a tag play,if the run scores before the tag,the run should count. Good question.
Aug. 31, 2013
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
nope run doesn't count.....runner on 2b is forced into going to 3rd...he is the 3rd out b/c of a force being at 3rd.....doesn't matter how you get it,tag or otherwise....
Aug. 31, 2013
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
406 posts
Agree with Mad Dog. The force out does not have to be executed at the base. The runner has is no longer entitled to 2nd base, so he has no place to retreat to.
Aug. 31, 2013
LP
266 posts
mad dog i knew if i hung around this chat room long enough i would finally see you are correct ha ha.Texas Transplant is correct the third out doesn't have to be at the base.it was still a force out and third out run does not count.
Sept. 1, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
Mad Dog, Texas Transplant and LP are correct. The run does not count. Since all runners in this situation were forced to move up it doesn't matter how the runner is put out. It's still considered a force out.
If this same play happened with runners on second and third then the run would count--provided that runner crossed the plate before the tag was made.
Nov. 25, 2013
Paul P
Men's 65
39 posts
If a baserunner on 2nd base, attempting to score on a single, makes a wide turn at 3rd base and collides with the third base coach and no subsequent defensive play was made, may the runner continue on his way and score. Does the run score? Or was the runner out for the collision at third base?
Nov. 25, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1006 posts
If, in the sole judgment of the umpire, the 3rd base coach made no effort to "assist" the base runner and was solely the passive victim of the collision, the base runner may continue toward home without penalty while remaining at risk of being put out. (Preventing the base runner from tripping and/or falling after contact DOES meet the definition of "assisting".) Conversely, simply touching (i.e., the incidental contact from the collision) does not, in and of itself, constitute "assisting" the runner.

Nov. 27, 2013
mnmasters38
Men's 60
12 posts
I was under the impression on a force play that the runner can stop but once he starts going backwards he is out and doesn't need to be tagged. Again I was told this by an umpire.
Nov. 28, 2013
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
mnmasters...that is a total falsehood except for one time,and that is for the batter going to first from home.....at all other times a runner can go back to the base they have previously left...now that is not to say he'll be safe if he is in a force situation,but he can go back......look at it this way,r1 on first,r2 on second...ball hit to 2b,he tags r1 coming from first,and then decides to throw to 3rd to get r2(which will be a tag play now),r2 goes back to 2b,b/c he decides he can't make 3rd,all legal...the ump is wrong that a runner can't go back to the base he left.....
Nov. 28, 2013
paul0784
Men's 55
120 posts
If that were me umpiring as soon as he started running back to second he was out cause he has to advance unless there is someone put out behind him so he could go back. However, it is still a force out and no run.
Nov. 28, 2013
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
paul,you would be totally wrong calling it that way......no runner is "required" to move forward....yes he can move back ,and yes he can be put out by a force unless the force behind him is taken off,then he can go back to the base he just left with no penalty....
Nov. 28, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
Mnmasters38 and paul0784 I've been umpiring for 20+ years and I have to admit I've never heard of a rule like that. I have to believe whoever the umpire was that said that was giving out false information.
Runners and first and second with 0 outs. Grounder to shortstop. Shortstop decides he's going to get the runner at second.
That runner is out if: shortstop throws to third and thirdbaseman with ball possession steps on third before the runner does, shortstop tags the runner going to third, the base runner intentionally knocks the ball out of the glove of a defensive player attempting to tag him, the runner goes 3 ft or more out of the baseline to avoid being tagged or the runner runs off the field into the dugout.
Nov. 28, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
Mad Dog I have to disagree with you where you stated running backwards from first to home constitutes an out. The only possible ways you could be out in a scenario like that is if you went 3 ft out of the baseline to avoid being tagged or if you ran backwards right into your dugout. Let's say I'm pitching and your batting. You hit a dribbler up the first base line. I run over and field it and as your running to first I attempt to tag you out. You take two or three steps backwards avoiding my tag. Then I decide to throw to first and I make a wild throw that goes by the first baseman. You are not out for taking those 2 or 3 steps backwards!! If the ump did call you out for that I suspect you, your manager, the rest of your team, your fans in the stands watching would go ballistic. Heck I'd have to argue that as well!!
Nov. 28, 2013
Downs
49 posts
stick8, sorry to say that your application of the Batter-Runner rule is incorrect.

Please refer to: 2013-14 SSUSA Rule Book, Page 43, Section 8.3, Sub.Sec. (H). The rule specifies: The Batter-runner Is Out: (H) When he moves back toward any base to avoid or delay a tag by a fielder. The ball is 'DEAD' the batter-base-runner is out and all runners shall return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

(NOTE: there was an official notification sent by SSUSA to clarify this rule to where the rule would ONLY apply to the Batter-base-runner, not to ANY BASE, and until the new 2015 Rule Book is published, that we were to "manually" delete the words "toward any base" and therefore this rule was heretofore applicable to the Batter-runner, ONLY. In essence, anytime the Batter-baserunner stops before reaching first base and TAKES A STEP BACKWARD to avoid or delay the tag, it shall be called "dead ball out", and ALL base runners must return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. Hope this helps to clarify this rule. Jim
Nov. 29, 2013
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
stick as an ump i thought this would be a rule you knew...i know ASA does it this way also.....no i would not go balistic as i know the rule and it has been around for a few years or better(at least that is when i found out about it).....
Nov. 29, 2013
stick8
1238 posts
OK you two got me!! I should have clarified in USSSA I'm not familiar with a rule like that. Whether its SSUSA, ASA, USSSA, NSA, ISA there is an intent for every rule. I'd be curious what the intent of this rule is.
Jan. 23, 2014
INHOC2
8 posts
Two questions...unable to clarify in the rule book: 1) Is a foul tip back to the catcher an out only if under the catcher's head, or like ASA the height makes no difference? and 2) What is the call if a catch is made other than with the hand or glove, ie. caught in the uniform?
Jan. 23, 2014
TimMcElroy
23 posts
Section 1.29 FOUL TIP

A foul tip is a ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher. NOTE- Any batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head to any part of the catcher's body or equipment other than the hands(s) or glove is a foul ball and a dead ball.

1) For an out to be recorded, the batted ball must have cleared the batter's head (catcher's height is irrelevant) and be caught with the hands or glove

2) A batted ball that is caught or trapped in any location other than the hands or glove is considered a foul ball / dead ball.

Jan. 24, 2014
INHOC2
8 posts
Thanks for responding, Tim. So in order for it to be an out, the foul tip has to be caught above the batter's head, unlike ASA where any foul tip caught by the catcher, regardless of height, is an out? Re: the 2nd question, is it a dead ball if the shortstop takes a one-hopper that ends up being caught inside the uniform...foul ball, batter gets first base, or what? I appreciate the clarification.
Jan. 24, 2014
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
the answer Paul gave is absolutely wrong.. being an ump myself ya hear these horror stories all the time about guys makn these calls..

texas & maddog are correct in their call.. that runner at 2nd is forced to go to 3rd and whether tagging him or touching 3rd he's out and run DOES NOT score..

stick I believe this rule holds true in all associations.. I'll have to dig out my U-Trip rule book..
Jan. 24, 2014
TimMcElroy
23 posts
INHOC2

My response above was intended to discuss the scenario of a "foul tip" only.

In SSUSA play a foul tip (with less than 2 strikes) must have gone higher than the batter's head, and have been caught with the glove or hand(s) for an out to be recorded.


In the 2nd part of your most recent post, a one hopper to the shortstop is ground ball / live ball. The batter-runner and any runner(s) on base are free to run the bases with liability to be put out.
Jan. 25, 2014
stick8
1238 posts
Paul P, I have an out on that runner. Whether it's accidental or not base coaches cannot contact baserunners who are running the bases--in USSSA. I cannot imagine SSUSA being different but then who knows?
Jan. 25, 2014
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
stick, my call would be if the coach doesn't assist the runner he can continue on. I believe he has to assist runner to keep goin or return to the base and then you have an out..
Jan. 26, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1006 posts
The SSUSA Rulebook requires (at pages 51-52) an umpire's judgment that the runner was "assisted" by the contact with the coach in order to result in an out call ... While ruling that any contact results in an out is an easier call to make, we believe that incidental contact absent "assistance" is not the intent of our rule ...

9.2 • THE BALL IS IN PLAY
...

V. When, in the umpire’s judgment, a coach touches and physically assists a runner.

EFFECT: A delayed dead ball signal will be given and play shall continue. The touched and assisted runner shall be ruled out and all other subsequent play will be ruled upon accordingly.

Jan. 26, 2014
stick8
1238 posts
I suppose if a baserunner was rounding third and tripped over the bag or stumbled and fell into the third base coach that would be an exception. It is a judgement call.
Jan. 27, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1006 posts
That's one scenario (so long as the coach doesn't help the runner up) ... Another was a Director having to spend too much time reversing an out call for a runner who slapped a "high five" on the 3B coach on the way by to score the (eventually ruled) winning run in a game! ... The "assist" component is the principal issue in our view ...
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