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Discussion: Suspensions

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Oct. 14, 2013
ShaneV
Men's 55
382 posts
Suspensions
Sad that this kind of behavior continues. As an umpire, player, manager and league and
tournament director I am disappointed to see this kind of behavior and 100% behind Senior Softball-USA in the swift action taken. Senior Softball will not tolerate this.

ShaneV
Oct. 14, 2013
The real deal
Men's 60
63 posts
Can you fill us in as to what kind of behavior are you referring to?
Oct. 15, 2013
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
I think he is talking about the 1st Priority post by SSUSA at the top of the message board.....
Oct. 15, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Years over due to enact, but deserved.
Oct. 15, 2013
Dbax
Men's 60
1269 posts
Can anyone elaborate on what exactly happened?
Oct. 15, 2013
bkb555
87 posts
on a side bar...why are any 40 year olds playing senior softball......when I was 40 a few short years ago, I was playing against 20 somethings all the time and representing my age...we played in an over 39 league and used u-trip bats etc.....maybe I have it wrong
Oct. 15, 2013
ShaneV
Men's 55
382 posts
Why not? I've talked to a few 40's that LOVE our game and gave up that other
game for good, no regrets! The teams in our area have settled down
considerably since they started. They support our senior tournaments and are
not causing any problems. Loose Cannon was a new 40's team this year. They
were getting pummeled in Major, appealed and moved down, and won in Vegas.

With the 40's added and growing, and the behavior addressed, Senior Softball
is going to thrive in every way.

ShaneV
Oct. 15, 2013
The real deal
Men's 60
63 posts
I get what bkb555 is saying - never really thought of 40 year olds as being "seniors". But I guess their money is as green as ours.

It won't be long and we'll probably see a 30's division...
Oct. 15, 2013
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
We've gotten off topic here....I would still like to know what took place.....

Comtinuation of thread jacked topic....I know in many sports I played once you reached 40, (I also played against the kids until 57), you were considered in a "Masters" competition catagory....not too far of a jump then to add to the senior division - I think they start the pipeline at 40 to gain 10 more years of the market and provide players a way to continue at an age where they might be thinking of hanging it up - providing more income and players ($$$) for the organizations while also an organized venue for the "Masters" 40+.....good marketing (in many ways - services - products - markets) and a win - win.....
Oct. 16, 2013
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
I always thought that the youngest division should start at 45, not 40. Then it would be easy for the 45's to play the top 50's. Anyway, since the 40's are here and getting established like ShaneV states, it's good that SSUSA has finally done something about this behavior that cannot be tolerated ... at any level.
Oct. 16, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
4x4, you got it.
I believe they also wanter to go down to 35 at one point in time.
More pocket money.

I feel it should be a†separate event, not along side or in conjunction with 'senior events'.
They have enough problems getting quality fields and brackets filled as it is.
They haven't 'mastered' anything, nor are they seniors.
But yes, they need a place to go & play.
Oct. 16, 2013
Dbax
Men's 60
1269 posts
WTF happened?
Oct. 17, 2013
Malo37
55 posts
I saw the whole thing after our game finished. The sun was down low and was creating a dangerous field and no way of seeing a ball hit hard at 3rd or SS. It was dangerous, It was brutal.... Braves 3B said he wouldn't play under those conditions and walked off the field. Then the talking started. Tournament officials decided to move fields and the talking continued as they were changing fields. The real shame of this is that it was only a handful of guys talking combined between both teams and now all players are suspended. For sure not fair to those who said or did nothing that was unsportsmanlike. Which was most of the players.....
Oct. 17, 2013
southernson
259 posts
This is always a problem in Vegas. Playing with bad fields that are not safe, playing in low or no light conditions. Our last Vegas tournament we played where the outfield could not see a routine fly ball it was so dark. It was a joke....and honestly, I don't blame those guys for complaining.
Oct. 17, 2013
bionic
3 posts
We had the same problem acouple of years ago in vegas. I was playing third base and it was the third or fourth inning. I could see the pitcher let the ball go but nothing after that. i actually turned my back and covered my head. I asked for time and told the umpire my concerns. He walked over to my position and saw that i was blind at third due to the sun. He talked to the other team and the decision was made to wait until the sun went down for safety. It was handled very well by both teams. This was the undefeated game and the other team had us on the ropes, they could have been really upset with play being stopped. I'm sorry that the situation in the 40's game got out of hand. I feel bad for the players that were not doing the talking.

Safety first
Oct. 17, 2013
softball4b
Men's 60
744 posts
I was not there, but the incident was escalated because of the interaction between some players and the family members of the other team. I cannot speak to right or wrong, only that anytime the discussion goes outside the lines, it becomes larger than the causation of the conflict itself.
Oct. 17, 2013
neck10
493 posts
wellsounds like they will have a year to think about it they can play spa.
Oct. 17, 2013
softball4b
Men's 60
744 posts
Again, I have no first hand knowledge of the incident. I believe that suspensions should be limited to the participants themselves and not extended et al. If an extensive investigation revealed that all individuals on both teams were at fault, then so be it. Otherwise if you do the crime you do the time.

As my brother would say....assume the position, you know what it is. Major-Ohio Correctional
Oct. 17, 2013
fastcat
1 posts
malo 37 thats what i saw as well.the sun was the issue and it was brutal.i think the problems started when the umpires and the director could not make a decision to move or not.it took 10-15 min.the unfair thing was it was the bottom of the inning and the braves already got to hit in the top of the inning with the SAME brutal conditions and were definatly trying to use them to thier advantage.JK only argued to wait till after the inning to switch fields.I happened to be standing next to the braves dugout when the teams started to change fields and one of the braves wives stated talking crap..it ended up getting a little out of hand but teammates on each team broke it up.i agree if 95% of the players had nothing to do with it then they should not be banned..i think we are all adults here and the majority of the players had great sportsmanship that i could see. it was a heated championship game with the two best 40 teams in the country.and its is wrong to ban all of them.hopefully senior softball looks into this more and punishes the right guys
Oct. 17, 2013
getnold
1 posts
Malo37 has it right. During the change to the other field the Braves pitcher got into it with a couple JK guys, actually shoving 1 of them and when that was broken up, saying he would be waiting in the parking lot. He got tossed, game continued, no problems after that. If that incident is the reason for the suspensions, then most of the players on both teams should be pissed because most didn't even know what was happening.
Oct. 18, 2013
southernson
259 posts
Are the players involved to blame for their actions? Yes. But the player behavior is only the symptom. So we suspended the symptoms, and my guess is NOTHING happend to the root cause of the incident. And that's where the focus should be what was the root cause?

Same thing that's caused other problems....the poor field conditions should have been handled by the TD and the umpires long before a player has to say enough is enough and walk off because the TD and umpires didn't do their job.

There is way too much focus on the player behavior here.....and the same TD and umps will be there next year.


Oct. 18, 2013
Sparky.1
Men's 55
90 posts
This is part of the TOTAL REFLECTION of the ENTIRE SENIOR SOFTBALL format...........SIMPLY QUANTITY WITH NO CONCERN TO QUALITY!

NO WONDER I AM STILL UP IN THE AIR ABOUT MY RETIREMENT AS A SPONSOR...............THIS "SENIOR" format IS SIMPLY FOR THE ALL MIGHTY DOLLAR WITH ABSOLUTELY NO REGARDS TO THE PLAYERS, FANS AND SPONSORS.

GET THOSE BIG ENTRY FEES AND JUST POCKET WHAT YOU NEED REGARDLESS.

WHAT A SHAME THAT THE GAME WE ALL LOVE, HAS BECOME A MIRROR IMAGE REFLECTING THE SAME FORMAT TO HOW OUR POLITICIANS RUN OUR COUNTRY!
Oct. 18, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
276 posts
Sparky, I couldn't disagree with you more. Have you even read some of the responses Dave Dowell has made about the thought process that goes into setting up the national tournament? I have had disagreements with Dave in the past, but I think for you to say that there is no regard to the players, fans and sponsors is simply wrong and far from the truth.

I also think you are completely wrong about the mentioned incidence with the 40's being a reflection on the entire senior softball format. I play in 7 or 8 senior tournaments a year and rarely if ever see poor sportsmanship.

Sure there are room for improvements, but overall Senior Softball does a very good job.
Oct. 18, 2013
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
Sparky.1, I have to agree with cal50 here. Guys on two teams get into a shouting/shoving match, they involve the fans as well, and SSUSA lowers the boom and suspends both teams.

No entry fees for next year from these two teams. Angry players who feel they were innocent and might play on other teams as well but can't because of the suspension. Disruption of a tournament with two missing teams.

How do those actions represent a greedy profit-at-all cost attitude? Seems like SSUSA loses profit because of a principled action.
Oct. 18, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
I agree with much of what is wrote in this thread. Do believe though, it would be very hard to separate the wheat form the chaff in this issue, so imo, I feel the best way was to take the whole lot down. Hard lesson 'learned', maybe, maybe not.
I think that being a, lol, Non-Profit, that the books are supposed to be open for review, that is unless there are 2 sets, again lol. Request them if they are. Should make for an interesting read.
Oct. 19, 2013
Mango
Men's 50
90 posts
Wasn't there didn't see it. If it happened as described above (a few players got into it and other players on these teams broke it up) then to paint everyone with the same punishment brush seems illogical and unfair. The players that were the peacemakers or non-participants should be exempt from punishment.

Food for thought- the umpires and tournament director Iím assuming tried to break it up. Their behavior was the same as the teammates who tried to break it up or actually broke it up. Should the umpires and tournament director be suspended for a year as well for their behavior? Wouldn't that seem silly?
Mango
Oct. 22, 2013
jrd231
17 posts
I am real late with this post, but I would like to tell you what happen in our sun game. A ground ball was hit to my 2nd baseman, neither he, the umpire or the right centerfielder saw the ball. I asked all three if they saw the ball. All said the sun that was setting was right in their eyes. I then proceeded to call the opposing mgr out and told him and the home plate umpire we could not and would not continue under those dangerous conditions. The Hawaii mgr agreed (along with the umpires) and the game was delayed 25 minutes until the sun set. The game continued without incident.
JD-Lincoln Hills Coyotes
Oct. 23, 2013
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
jrd231, fantastic success story of accommodating umps and good sportsman manager. Of course some TDs would complain because it upsets their schedule, but player safety should come first.
Oct. 23, 2013
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
RE: SUN and or WIND
Read the 6.16 rule. It Only refers to pitchers. But is a possible reflection about the BS for mandatory wearing of gear or you do not play that position at least. Doubt any of these enforcers actually pitch in games let alone bp.
I do know one TD who does pitch but he's not in CA.
Oct. 23, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
yep you guys are right about umps and TD's will be back.. we play leagues all year round here in Vegas at the same time of day and there's never any fights over the sun or teams asking the umps to delay the games.. there was a game at A-G involving Vegas Elks in 55AAA with the same sun problem on right side and the game went on without incident.. The older the guys are the less complaining you here from my experience with Senior softball.. as for the TD's being upset about the schedule, there are leagues goin on here that do supercede any tournament know matter who they are..
Oct. 23, 2013
jrd231
17 posts
Vinny, if you were playing the infield and could not see a ball coming at you, are you telling me that is no problem? Better safe than sorry!
Oct. 23, 2013
softballnuts
78 posts
jrd231



Sunsets have been happening since who knows when.

Those fields have been there for decades.

Softball games, at all levels of play have been played there day and night, for many years without any major incidents.








Oct. 23, 2013
southernson
259 posts
Well softballnuts, I'm sorry playing in unsafe conditions is not acceptable at anytime, especially at the cost and level of play here.

This isn't the grocery store league where everyone chipped in 20 buck for the year, and it isn't the talent level you see in league play......

Guys can get seriously hurt with the level of play by teams at those Nationals.

Oct. 23, 2013
Full Monty
79 posts
southernson

Those fields have hosted higher levels of softball play than your Senior Softball team.





Oct. 24, 2013
southernson
259 posts
Full Monty,
I don't doubt it. But without proper lighting (which you should know to be true at some of those fields), dark is dark and unsafe. And the blinding sunlight for some of those fields (which you should also know to be true), it's unsafe.

That's my only point, unsafe conditions at any field warrant quick action by the umpires and TD. Or there is frustration and possibility for injury and temper eruption.

A pot of water on the stove is not harmful. But turn the burner on High, and it's going to boil over. And so it did apparently....

Oct. 24, 2013
L.Martin
Men's 45
3 posts
Not to mention some of the best players hitting with senior bats
Oct. 24, 2013
Shut Up & Pitch
55 posts
Do you guys really believe that the fields you played on were THE ONLY fields that the sun was a problem?

IT'S Las Vegas for crying out loud!

What did you expect?

Oct. 24, 2013
softball4b
Men's 60
744 posts
Bottom line:

Every field can have problems with sun depending on the time of the day and time of year. The real problem was due to the number of teams and the increased number of games. Thus games were scheduled at times not normally played during that time on those fields.

SSUSA is addressing these issues and I feel confident they will make the proper adjustments. They fully understand litigation as a result of unsafe conditions is far more onerous than reduced revenue.

Oct. 24, 2013
gibby
4 posts
I was there I'm an outfielder for the Braves, Player safety should be the most important thing. We all have job's to go to on Monday after playing hard all weekend. It's to bad that a few guy's could not control them self. This is what I love to do for fun, and now I can't. Until 2014 I hope the SSUSA lets all the player's that just wonted to play ball come back and dew so. If the third basemen for JK couldn't see in the top half of the inning I wish he would have said something. I love the game but I love my face more, that's nuts. It's always fun to play against the best guy's in your age group, can't wait to do it again.
Oct. 24, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
JRD, I pitch and have played in many games where sun is a problem.. whether on offense or defense its gonna be there.. I pitched in a game over in Hemet and I couldn't even see the ball once it left my hand.. I would let ball go and start running towards second base.. I'm not saying its right but but like SB4B said "sun is goin to be there on any field "... IT still wasn't a reason to start fighting over a silly softball game and then get suspended from playing a silly game that we love to play.. I've been involved with softball for 40 yrs. and have never heard of players getn in an argument and then a fight cause of the sun.. Call me what you want but I think it was pretty stupid of both parties.. Give me the sun anytime..

Gibby, I understand people have to work on Monday but how would it look if any of the guys had to call off cause they got injured in the fight or even worse they was sitting in jail if the police were called ??? Was just a dumb thing for them and the fans to do at such a great event..

SSUSA, I hope yinz do investigate this further and take action against the few that were really involved and not punish the innocent because of a few bad apples...
Oct. 25, 2013
southernson
259 posts
Softball4b,
You hit the target with the bottom line, well said.
Oct. 25, 2013
Snot Nose Kid
40 posts
It was the same for everybody!

The fields can't be changed.

The sun rises and the sun sets....

God made it that way....

it can't be changed.


All activities have some sort or risk...


If you can't take the heat...

Stay out of the kitchen!




Oct. 25, 2013
gibby
4 posts
Sorry I ever posted anything, Talk is cheep I let my stick and glove do the talking for me and my team mates, not my mouth.

Ps. Vinny I'm a lover not a fighter. lol

I guess I'll just have to see how things pan out. good luck to all you guys and your teams.
Oct. 26, 2013
jrd231
17 posts
To all you who do not believe in safety-just see someone get hit and you will change your mind. You are right about "God made it that way" but he also told us to use "common sense." Men 40 to 80 play this GAME called Senior Softball and we would like to continue playing, but not under dangerous situations. That macho stuff left me long ago after seeing several injuries that could have been averted.
Oct. 26, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
276 posts
This was not a SSUSA tournament, but we played in a tournament a couple of months ago, the sun was so bad in the morning, I bet there were over 15 strike outs swinging. All the director had to do was move the game back 1/2 hour or so. If the sun had been facing the other way, defenders in the wrong spot with the sun, would have no chance to defend themselves. I agree jrd231, use common sense.
Oct. 26, 2013
?
82 posts
I'm glad so many of you are concerned about safety playing Senior Softball.

So will any of you that posted on this thread please tell me how many players on your teams wear the most basic of protection, a CUP?

Do you guys wear a CUP? Probably Not!

How many of your infielders wear any protective equipment?
A chest protector or a face mask? Probably Not!

Do you?

If not, WHY NOT?

I would guess that less than 50% of you wear any type of protection.


If you want to preach safety why don't you tell your team mates to start wearing protective equipment. And listen to the excuses!

You may not be able change when and where the games are played but you can wear protective equipment and save yourself a trip to the hospital.


Oct. 26, 2013
Olden Slow
Men's 65
175 posts
?..
Speaking for myself....I always wear a mouthpiece and cup in the inf or of..If I play 3rd or SS, I add a chest protector, wrist guard and mask. I also wear compression sliders at all times..I'm 65 and none of that stuff weighs enough to slow me down. Most guys on the 2 teams I play for...Pretty much do the same to some degree.Just my .02
Oct. 27, 2013
HJ
Men's 70
440 posts
Totally agree with Olden. 1 of the 4 fields we play on has a wicked sun field. It amazes me that I am the only guy in the league who uses eye shadow (actually a Mueller eye strip which goes on easily and comes off easy with no mess). I don't understand the "macho" approach of seniors. When basketball players are using padded protection we have permission to do so.
Oct. 29, 2013
jrd231
17 posts
? Our entire infield wear cups, face masks, and shin guards, plus knee pads. That does not mean you can not have a serious injury if a ball is hit solidly and you do not see it. The gear will only protect so much.
Oct. 30, 2013
neck10
493 posts
we wait on rain we wait lightning we even waited on ducks to get off the field why couldnt we wait ten minutes for the sun to go behind the mountain
Oct. 31, 2013
the wood
1079 posts
I wasn't a witness to the issues between the two 40 teams. In speaking with a friend who was very much there it seems as if it was ugly.
I have been present in many 'on the field' skirmishes in my 40+ years of playing softball. When it hits the fan like it did in LV there are usually a few guys who create the problem, a few who exacerbate it and a majority who act as calming influences. Without the latter group these things continue to escalate.
I fully understand that suspensions make sense for the ones that made negative contributions but why would you suspend everyone who was there? Isn't that like 'throwing out the baby with the bath water'?
We also had an incident in LV (4 weeks ago) and without the intervention of 3-4 guys it could have been a real ugly scene. As it turned out, no one was injured and the game resumed. How else does it get back on track? Can the umpires really control it when it gets that far? He definitely couldn't in our game.
I would risk being suspended before I'll watch one of my teammates get 'cheap shotted'... if breaking up a potential fight is truly worthy of a suspension.
BW
Nov. 1, 2013
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
Wasn't there and haven't talked to anyone who saw it, so I don't know how much the other teammates tried to play peacemaker. If they did, it's a shame they were caught up with the suspension. But according to SSUSA's initial statement, the issue went beyond name calling and a few guys getting into it.

"Umpires and the Field Director reported that both teams showed extreme disrespect to umpires, the other team, the women and children watching the games and the Director during their championship game on Sunday."

SSUSA also noted that one of the teams had been suspended recently for the same behavior! Unlikely it is still the same guys, but SSUSA evidently thought it was a continuum.

I agree with the wood that this is not uncommon in softball (as much as we like to think we are mature men), and sometimes it is only a single loudmouth who can get it started, especially if someone on the other team responds. And yes, it usually only takes a few peacemakers to work on their own teammates to avoid escalation. I have admired managers whom I've played for who have this ability to calm down their overheated players. But don't wait for the manager to do it!
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