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Discussion: One base or two?

Posted Discussion
June 3, 2014
hitman
Men's 65
298 posts
One base or two?
Batter gets a single and rounds first looking at second, relay comes in and the shortstop throws behind runner at first and throw goes out of play. Is runner awarded second or second and third???
June 3, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
TWO
June 3, 2014
hitman
Men's 65
298 posts
Thanks, that what I called also but some didn't understand.
June 3, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
Very simple formula: "Last base legally acquired, plus two" ... Nice call!
June 3, 2014
lb16
Men's 50
13 posts
I think the debate comes in when say infielder overthrows before runner gets to first. Then runner only gets second base.
June 3, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Easiest rule to explain

1 thing you must always remember- runner does not have a base made until he actually touchess it

Remember that and the rest will be easy.

All over throws are two bases from the last base touched at time of throw.

when the infielder releases the ball the runner going to first has not stepped on first yet. If an infieldeer throws it after the runner has stepped on first and the ball goes into dead ball area he would get 3rd.

But most infielders are not going to throw it after the runner has alreadty touched the base.

I explain it this way when umpires ask me what about the runner going to first he only gets 2nd

I say lets pretend the runner falls down when he hits the ball and is still on the ground when the SS throws the ball over the 1st basemans head into dead ball area.
Umpires gives him 1st and 2nd


see how easy that is LOL
June 4, 2014
stick8
1261 posts
Hitman, it's two bases--the one your going toward and the next one. In that situation the batter-runner gets third base.
June 4, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Stick don't explain it like that cause if the runner had rounded 1st and is going back toward first players would say he only gets second cause he was going toward 1st.

Remember it is two bases from the last base touched at time of release

Umpires and players try and make it to complicated
June 4, 2014
stick8
1261 posts
Good point Garocket. The key here being it was the second play by the defensive team which means runners move up two bases from where they're at the time of the throw.
June 4, 2014
Diputs
Men's 55
9 posts
What about if the shortstop caught a line drive and tried to get the runner who had come off the bag?
June 4, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
It does NOT matter what play precedes or results in the errant throw ... This is always the K.I.S.S. theory (Keep It Simple Silly) in only six words "Last base legally acquired, plus two"
June 5, 2014
curty
Men's 60
102 posts
what is the case when an outfielder,throwing to get runner @ first on a base hit, has throw go out of play past first baseman?
June 5, 2014
lb16
Men's 50
13 posts
Same rule applies if runner has not made it to 1st, he goes to 2nd, if past 1st he goes to 3rd.
June 5, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
and remember made means he had already touched 1st before the fielder let go of the ball.
You would think that would never happen that an outfielder throws the ball toward 1st after the runner had already touched the base,


SSUSA Staff is correct two from last base legally accquired which means he had already touched it
June 5, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Ok one last one to really scratch you head on


Runner on 1st long fly ball right fielder runs back to catch the ball. The runner on first tagged up however the defense is not sure they start hollering throw it to first.

The 2nd baseman cuts the ball and throws toward 1st and over throws the ball into dead ball area. However the runner was between 2nd and third but the umpire saw the runner miss 2nd.
Where do you place the runner?
June 5, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
Third base, because the rule is still the same: "Last base legally acquired, plus two" ... And that last base legally acquired was 1st base ... In this one, the argument will be with the offense wanting the runner to be awarded home because, of course, none of them saw (or will admit to seeing) the runner miss 2nd base ... Garocket, the rule is REALLY simple to apply, regardless of how convoluted the dreamed up hypothetical may be!

June 5, 2014
lb16
Men's 50
13 posts
Actually runner gets home. Missed base is an appeal play umpire cannot only award runner 3rd based on missing 2nd because it would give defense an advantage to appeal missed bag! Runner gets home would be out if appealed for missing 2nd.
June 5, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
We disagree ... The determination of the "Last base legally acquired, plus two" is an umpire's judgment call, not subject to appeal ... The fact that absent the ball going out of play, it would be an appeal play is irrelevant in the context of the umpire's overriding, and sole, judgment on the proper award of bases ... The simple application of the rule is still intact!
June 5, 2014
paul0784
Men's 60
122 posts
As a USSSA umpire and a runner on first base. If a line drive is hit to an infielder and he tries to throw the runner out at first base and over throws. In USSSA you get the base you are going to plus 1. We say that the runner has to retouch first so that is one and then he gets second for two. In ASA he would get third because he had first at the time of the pitch. In either case it is still 2 bases on the over throw...
June 6, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
So now you are saying that a when a ruuner passes a base he has not assumed to touch it without an appeal
SSUSA STAFF you cannot have it both ways LOL

You would award him home. would be out if the defense appeals him for missing 2nd
June 6, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
If the umpires have that authority then why would he not call a runner out if he missed 2nd on his way to third and the outfielder throwed it to the SS while he is standing on 2nd NO Appeal but the umpire calls him out cause he say him miss second .
Same thing once a runner passes a base he has assumed touched it without an appeal.
June 6, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
Last post on topic: In your scenario, it is improper to conclude that the runner has legally acquired 2nd base, not having touched the bag, merely because he is somewhere between 2nd and 3rd when the ball becomes a DEAD BALL for being out of play ... The competent umpire makes a (proper) determination that the last base "legally acquired" is still 1st base, and awards the runner 3rd base on the dead ball out of play... This is really simple!
June 6, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
I really believe if you asked any Major League umpire. they would disagree with you and the softball and baseball rule is the same on awarding bases

Same scenerio
runner goes down the 1st base line and misses 1st makes a quick turn toward second SS throws it into dead ball area.
Where does the runner go?
June 6, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
STAFF...i agree with Garocket a runner is always assumed to have touched the base he is going to...it is up to the defense to appeal him missing the base if no appeal he should have been awarded 3rd and home
June 6, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
STAFF...how do you as an umpire explain to the offense that the runner only gets 3rd i cant imagine the offensive manager not coming out and asking for an explanation why the runner did not get home....do you tell them the runner missed 2nd? then the defense hearing this would make an appeal for an out?
June 6, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
B.J. - This is our last post on topic for you, too - This is so incredibly simple, but we'll explain it one more time ...

The runner is ASSUMED to have touched 2nd base ONLY by the OFFENSE, even though that assumption is totally irrelevant ... The (competent) umpire, paying attention, KNOWS whether or not he did, period ... I can't imagine that you would "assume" the runner touched 2nd base, award him 3rd and Home on the dead ball out of play, then a few seconds later, say that he really didn't touch 2nd base, and call him out by granting the appeal by the DEFENSE ...

When the ball goes out of play it becomes a dead ball situation ... Accordingly, there is nothing to appeal in this scenario ... Making any "assumption" is inappropriate ... Do NOT assume anything might have previously happened or maybe could have or still might have happened, or any combination thereof ... The dead ball kills anything after that moment ...

Your job as an umpire is to recreate the situation at the dead ball moment in your mind and apply the rule ... That's it! ...

Again, this rule is really, really simple: "Last base legally acquired, plus two." ... That base is still 1st base (and no amount of "But, what if???" discussion changes that fact), so the proper award is 2nd and 3rd ... The manager of the offense will accept that ruling a lot easier than you having to explain why you "assumed" he touched 2nd for the base award to Home on the ball out of play, but then, just moments later, you "assumed" he didn't and called him out on appeal ... Good luck with that!

June 7, 2014
garyheifner
349 posts
Similar thing happened in the Northern Nationals back a number of years. I question the ump that our runner should be awarded home, it was the rule. He said, didn't care today the runner gets 3rd only. Local ump-local team-interesting
We lost by that one run.
June 7, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Dave lets discuss this one in Tupelo over a cold one
June 8, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
the SSUSA rulebook doesnt always spell out different situations and many times i go back to ASA rule book. I decided to e-mail the Florida state UIC with this scenario. Matt. i have a question for you...Runner on 1st long fly ball right fielder runs back and catches the ball. The runner on first tagged up, however the defense is not sure and they start hollering throw it to first. The 2nd baseman
cuts the ball and throws toward 1st and over throws the ball into dead ball area. The runner at the time was between 2nd and 3rd. The next part of the
scenario was that the umpire saw the runner miss 2nd. Where do you place the runner? Here is his answer....

You are correct in your assessment that the runner is assumed to have touched the base once they pass the base unless properly appealed for missing a base. The appeal could be live ball or it could be dead ball after the award is given. The award would have been two bases from where the runner was at the point of the throw that wound up going into dead ball territory. In your case play, the runner was between 2d and 3d when the throw was released that went into dead ball territory. So, by rule the runner is awarded 3d and home. The runner may return to touch 2d after the ball is dead before moving to the bases that have been awarded but if they fail to do so, the appeal for missing the base can be made and enforced.... I understand this is ASA but it is the same rule for all slow pitch softball....I wish in this forum that when specific umpiring questions are asked their was a specific place where either a regional or state UIC would answer the question
June 8, 2014
lb16
Men's 50
13 posts
Actually thats the answer I gave but SSUSA staff apparently would not accept. And yes I am also an umpire do mostly local baseball rec leagues.
June 8, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
We are unwilling to stop the play with a Dead Ball call and presume the runner who just missed 2nd base would not double back a couple or few steps to touch the base ... Your interpretation denies him that right ... In the case of a delayed dead ball call, where the play is allowed to continue, we would agree ... This is just going to be one of those differences in the SSUSA and ASA-Florida application of the rule ...
June 8, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
STAFF: I dont understand....in this post you say that you are unwilling to stop the play with a Dead Ball call, but in your previous post you say that when the ball goes out of play it becomes a Dead Ball situation....which one is it?? My interpretation does not stop the runner from going back to 2nd in fact once a dead ball is called, the runner would automatically return to the last base he was ASSUMED to have touched...and from there the umpire would award bases.
June 9, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
There lies a problem
in all associations except seniors he would be awarded home. But it is not detailed in the Senior book so about 90% of the umpires would have gotten this wrong. When the SSUSA field director comes and makes a different ruling then the umpires look like they do not know what they are doing.

I have umpired in 4 seperate associations and they all are the same
they have assumed to have touched unless appealed

June 9, 2014
lb16
Men's 50
13 posts
Garocket you are correct sir, I dont get what is so hard to understand.
June 9, 2014
neck10
488 posts
so stick your saying 1 + 2 =3
June 9, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
Garocket....you are correct...that is why tournament directors need to stay as tournament directors...there should always be a UIC available for umpire questions
June 12, 2014
stick8
1261 posts
Neck in the law of mathematics 1 + 2 does equal 3--lol. The only time a runner gets 3 bases is if a defensive fielder throws their glove at a ball and it makes contact. Then it's 3 bases from the time of the pitch.
BTW, one of your guys, Billy Osborne, played with us last weekend in Knoxville. He did a very nice job. He's fast for his age!!
June 12, 2014
stick8
1261 posts
Here's one for you Garocket or anyone else:
Runner on first 1 out. Line drive to short who makes a nice catch. Runner at first is caught off the bag and tries to get back. The shortstops throw back to first is wild and goes out of play. Umpire signals dead ball and points the runner to second base. Baserunner neglects to go back to first to tag and goes right to second. Next batter is in the box and the defensive team appeals the runner at second didn't properly tag up. Is the runner good or is he out?
June 12, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
he is out on appeal
June 13, 2014
lb16
Men's 50
13 posts
B.J. is correct!
June 13, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
1st off the umpire missed the award.
He is suppose to go to third.
Remember he gets two bases on an overthrown ball into dead ball area.
He already had 1st.
But with all that being said. He would be out on an appeal. If any runners had scored they would count.
June 13, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
Garocket...not in this case...he would only get 2nd because having to go back to tag up is considered 1 base. if he made it back to 1st base before SS released his throw then he would get 3rd
June 13, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1126 posts
Garocket is correct ... Retreating back to first is not counted as one of the two bases ... Same rule as most of the discussion in this thread: "Last base legally acquired, plus two."

In any scenario where a fielder throws a ball out of play and it is not the first play by an infielder (in this case the first play was the catch), the runners get two bases from where they were at the time of the wild throw, so in this case third ... However, as stated, if the runner does not go back to retouch first base while the ball is dead (since he had not retouched it after the ball was caught), then it is possible for him to be called out on an appeal ... See: MLB Rule 7.05(g) and (i)(Comment)


June 13, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
yes...i also found it in ASA rules supplement no. 38 OVERTHROWS
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