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Discussion: save it for the confessional

Posted Discussion
June 5, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
save it for the confessional
I tell you what I've had enough of.
It's guys who drive the middle then apologize.
I had a guy hit through the middle twice and then
have the stones to say he was sorry.
When I have ever hit the middle it was either because I was
trying to or trying to go over the top to center field.
Either way, it shows a meaningful lack of concern for the guy
who pitches.
The toughest guy/best hitters I know don't go anywhere near the middle
unless they want to.

Now, as a guy who played third base before he was a pitcher
I want you to go up the middle because it gives me a very quck way to get you out.
But when you do, expect me and my guys
to not give a care about your pitcher the rest of the game.
That's just the way it is and doesn't need to be changed.

If you want to apologize to anyone after hitting the middle
save it for your pitcher.
June 5, 2007
Longball12
23 posts
Seems to me you want everything your way! If you don't like being hit at and listen to the apology don't pitch go sit on the bench!!!!!!!!......... Real simple!!!!!! Its all part of the game dude!!!!!....... :)
June 5, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
It's old exclamation point man or woman.
How many aliases do you have sir or madam?
Still don't have a clue and want to start some crap, eh
without showing any of us, who you are.
Still gutless, though and clue-less, too.
June 5, 2007
the wood
1087 posts
Joe:
I'm not sure why hitting the middle is an issue for you. We have guys that hit the middle a lot of the time and we never seem to injure a pitcher. We have pitchers that have caught some rockets. One of our pitchers had his forearm broken in 4 places (before Ultra 2s). This was truly an accident.
I personally try to stay out of the middle because i don't want to hit anyone. When I do go middle I make every effort to stay to one side or the other, not right at the guy. In my view, there are 2 problems with going right at him (intentionally or not)... 1) it could hurt him... 2) he could get me out... neither is good.
But I can't always hit it exactly where I'd like and it sometimes gets closer to him than I want. If I could always hit it where I want, I'd hit 1.000 all of the time. I hit one in Carson City that was 2 feet to the side of a guy and he's a friend of mine. It wasn't my intent and told him so... he accepted it, at least I think that he did. I hit another one that was caught... same guy, different game. Again, no issue from him.
As you stated, you try to go over the pitcher's head when you go middle. Have you ever topped it and it went right at a guy?
At first base, I've been hit in pretty near every part of my body (most of them continue to function) and I've never felt badly toward the batter. I believe that the batters would rather hit it past me than at me. Heck, if I could see, run and throw, I'd still be in the outfield... farther from the batter. :-)
I just don't see much in the way of 'head hunters' in senior ball. But if we do sense it, we have a few guys that can return the favor.
Do you really feel that they do it purposely?
Bob Woodroof
June 5, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Woody,
Congratulations to GSF and MTC for some of the best played softball
this weekend in Reno(Carson CIty).
My issue isn't with driving the middle, it's with the apology.
So that, when a player hits the middle regardless of why or how
it opens up the middle for the other team.
He, the hitter, stands convicted and his pitcher will serve out his sentence for him.
I don't see or want it another way.
It's just that I find the apology fundamentally false and powerless.
June 5, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
LONGBALL 12: U r a chicken, because u do not or will not tellus just who u r? But, that is o.k., & it's u're right. Also, a dude, is a mole or D.B., on a cows ass......period.

WOOD: My friend. It was nice to c u. But, u r wrong here. I played in 1 world w/ 2 of these players in questions. I have also, taken B.P., 5 to 8 times w/ some of the men that Joe is talk' about. These men, hit the middle all of the time. Al, does this all of the time... If, ther is no Pitch' Screen, no one will pitch, to a few of these players. PERIOD. Just because Al, pitchers, does not give Al, any rights. to hit the middle. I saw the game. Kidz went middle & Ol' A's went middle. Wendal Tag'., had to fall down 2 times in order to get out of the way. Wendall, made 2 great catches.

LONGBALL & BOB: There is very bad blood between these 2 teams. This was the 1st time that Einstein, has played 4 the OL' A's.


Also, if, a players does hit the middle & the pitcher gets hit, a true man... a true sport, will not run his gusts out to 1st base, in a game that mean nothing.

I happen to like several of the players on both teams. I am also, glad that I will never have to play w/ some of these lil' men. YES, I AM BE' JUDGEMENTAL.

It is a real shame, that many of us SENIORS, cannot & will not get along or bury the AX.

I hope that this type of crap will quit. I have a Senior friend, that the next time someone drills him, he will get about 15' away & drill, YES, DRILL THAT BASTARD, w/ a ball.

LONGBALL & BOB, I hope that if, u saw this game, u would also, be up set.

Anyway..... Is this what seniors have to look forward toward??

The STONEMAN....... HOW SAD & CHILDISH
June 5, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary 19,
Keep it respectful man, and we'll never have a problem.
It's the apology I find fault with.
If you want to hit the middle go ahead and take the consequences.
Just don't tell me your sorry.
What part of this don't you/won't you understand?
June 5, 2007
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Einstein you haven't lived until someone (a sponsor) puts a bounty on your head because a teammate goes middle. Happened to me in 2000. I would guess only 6 to 8% of all softball players have ever pitched, everyone should try it. Myself and the teammate had a meeting of the minds so to speak after I got hit 3 times. At least I knew where the other team stood it was my so called teammate that I wondered about.
June 5, 2007
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
Sometimes the ball just goes up the middle. I hit a guy in the shin a couple of years back and the ball bounced between 3rd and SS and down the left field line. Instead of running on around the bases I stopped at first and went to check on the pitcher. I apologized and he turned away and wouldn't even look at me. That upset me more than anything because I don't, and never have gone head hunting. To this day I'm still upset he got hit but almost more upset by the F.U. I got back in return, the apology was sincere.
The middle belongs to everybody and most of the time the ball goes to the side of the field matching the area of the plate it is positioned. Sometimes it goes up the middle.
I agree that an apology from someone that consistantly drills the middle is pretty shallow. Especially some of the looks they can give along with that apology.
On another note on this subject. It amazes me the number of pitchers that do not/fail to hone their skills preparing for a ball hit up the middle. Yes, there are some balls that are going to be hit there both purposely and inadvertently but the pitcher should do his part to be ready for a ball coming back through. Many of them stand like statues watching to see where the ball is going to hit the plate and it is fortunate they don't get hit more than they do. This, in part, is due to most hitters not trying to go up the middle.
Curt Hollis showed the guys down in Florida last February a very easy way to get yourself ready to protect after every pitch but no one seems to be willing to work on it -- but they are more than willing to be royally pissed off if the ball comes back their way.
June 5, 2007
the wood
1087 posts
6-8%? That's only one in 13-16 guys.
Surely more of us have pitched than this. I have pitched but not in the past 20 years. Meade hit one through my legs once in Lakewood, OH. I wasn't mad at him but I did believe that I should have caught it. My catcher told me that I was lucky that I wasn't a 'stewardess on that flight'.
I don't remember if he apologized or not. We didn't do that back then so, if he did, it would have been out of character. But God knows that we hit plenty past Mike Nelson, their pitcher.
Einstein's point about phony apologies is not that tough to understand. But... how do we know when it's a sincere apology or not?
Einstein:
Thanks for the GSF plug but it was MTC 55 that played well on Sunday, not us. We were just Friday/Saturday sensations.
Bob Woodroof
June 5, 2007
smooth01
Men's 50
123 posts
I didn't know there was sacred turf in softball !
June 5, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
LECAK & THE WOOD: Again, u were not there @ the game. There r some players that start w/ their feet outside the batters box. These men walk the box. Kidz & 'A's, players do this.......

I saw several players w/ one if, not both feet outside the box. Again, these men did walk the box. When a player walks the box & take a swing, inwhich their swing is directed, YES DIRECTED, @ the pitcher. What do u think??

Well, u tell me. If, several of they men end their swing w/ their swing & BAT AIMED @ THE PITCHER. In other words, the batters follow thru is @ the pitcher & that players bat is pointing @ the pitcher... Some of these men have been walkink the box 4 over 10 yrs. Again, I have taken B.P., w/ these same men. Yes, I have seen them hit the middle, hit left & right of second base.

From where I was & from what I saw, players were go' after the other teams pitcher. A QUESTION? The players in question, how many World Championships Rings do these men have? In the 50's.... 3-5 rings minium?? In the 55's..... 5 rings minium??

Some will get hurt. I hope that SS-USA, goes back to it is ILLEGAL to WALK the BOX.

Glad, that I am not play' against some of these Knot Heads.
The STONEMAN........
June 5, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Yeah, Stoney.
I guess I walked in between a gunfight that has some history to it.
But my point still remains.
Maybe it's old school but cheap shots are just that...
Cheap, unmanly and deserve consequences in the realm of true men.
And hitting the ball at the closest guy to the batter with lethal bats and balls,
unprovoked, is in my book, unmanly and cheap.

In football, for example, the quarterback used to be off limits to the defense
because he was vulnerable almost always especially
when looking to throw the ball and could be easily hurt.
There was an unwritten law:
Don't go after our quarterback and we won't go after yours.
But since that time, things have changed.
Even the crowd (think Roman Coliseum)
loves to see a blind-side hit, that is, to strike an opponent when
he has the least ability to defend himself.
For me and a lot of folks, this wreaks of malicious intent, is unsportsmanlike
and even morally objectionable.

So there it is.
My opinion and doesn't have to be yours but it sure as heck is mine
and a lot of the best guys and players I know.
Denny Jones, Gary Tryhorn, Mike Burbank, Don Clatterbaugh,
Rick Perez, just to name a few.

So, for me, hit the middle on me as often as you like
'cause I want to get you out myself but don't expect
it to go by without consequences.
And if you mean to hurt me,
like Gary 19 said,
show some stones and take it up with me, personally.
Anytime, anywhere.
I'll do my best not to let you down
June 5, 2007
the wood
1087 posts
Einstein:
I noticed that you didn't mention John Kramer as one of the folks that agree with you about hitting the middle. He seems to go at pitchers as often as anyone. He also seems to slide hard needlessly. Has this gone unnoticed from your end?

Stone:
Again, I never stated that I was at the game you witnessed. But I did watch them play on Saturday... and saw nothing out of the ordinary.

We have had several shots hit at our pitcher and we never complain about it. Perhaps we aren't as vigilant as others. We give the other team the benefit of the doubt until convinced otherwise. We also abstain from making veiled threats on the senior softball web site, But again, this is just how we do things.

Bob Woodroof
June 5, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Woody,
What's any one player's behavior, teammate or not, have to do with what I was saying?
I stated my reasons why taking cheap shots doesn't appeal to me.
If you don't agree, that's fine with me.
I didn't say you had to but it sure is the way I look at it.
I'm sorry you took my defense of my argument and myself
as veiled or threatening.
Neither one was intended.
June 6, 2007
MTM
Men's 70
25 posts
I used to pitch unitl 5 years ago. I am 65 and quit pitching because I couldn't see the ball at night. My son is 32 I played with truly kids and they had no concern of where they hit the ball. Nothing was sacred. They tried to go up the middle. In thier view, If you couldn't field you shouldn't be there, Asfter a while as a pticher you know who hits where and you try to pitch accordingly to the batter. I am from NJ and I saw something very interesting last year in the NJ unlimited age state championships. (Dont't remember which assoc) The young teams all played with a man over the middle. Yes this means only 3 outfileders but most guys did not go up the middle. I play in a 60 league that allows 11 defensive players and most temas use a middle infielder which greatly reduces the number of middle hits. Maybe its time for all senior age groups to consider the 11th defensive player, then a ball up the middle would be welcome.
June 6, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
WOOD: This is u're post:"We also abstain from making veiled threats on the senior softball web site," This was not a threat, Don, will throw a ball @ a player. DO NOT GO THERE BOB.

Saturday night, the Mud Hen pitcher was hav' a hard time c' the ball @ the 8:00 pm game. I was @ second when 2 balls were hit up the middle.

I told the players on ODB, that if another player on ODB, hit the middle, I would quit. I also, stated that if, the Mud Hens' pitcher got hit, that ODB player had better not run toward 1st. Most of us have to go to work on Monday.

Bob, I will not put up w/ this crap of hit' the middle 4 no reason. U DO WHAT U WANT OR NEED TO DO, Bob.

As far as some of those 60 players, these lil' men will never take B.P. w/ me again. I will do want I need to do, right or wrong. There is no gray area, on this matter.

Bob, u do what u need to do. I will do what is wrong. But, I will take my stand. Players r not men, when they hide behind softball or laws. Hit' a ball left or right of second is o.k., but, to direct a pitch @ a pitcher is DEAD WRONG( C.S.). SENIORS, r to old to be told what is right. NO WONDER THIS WORLD IS SO MESS UP...

REALLY BOB..... GOOD LUCK.. The STONEMAN
June 6, 2007
the wood
1087 posts
Joe:
I only brought your teammate's name up to encourage you to reflect on the underlying point... safety, to one and all. It should be extended to both teams. And this also extends to sportsmanship... to each team.

Stone:
You continue to baffle me in that I really don't understand your point. If you have the impression that I favor blatant disregard for the pitcher's safety, you're mistaken.
You seem to be convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that the Kidz players were out to get the Old A's pitchers. As I said, I did not witness the Sunday game. I would be totally shocked if this were the case.
I know both managers and have long term friends on both teams. I will speak with them for their views.
Bob Woodroof
June 6, 2007
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
I just don't understand all the whoopla over hitting the middle. As a pitcher I feel I have a much better chance of getting you out then you do of hitting me. I have played in Nationals and gotten 9 balls hit at me in one game. Were they trying to hit me? I have no idea, but those 9 guys were out. Also, I hit the middle when batting. Thats where my best swing is. I'm not changing what works for me. Lets stop all this junk abou the middle. Do what you do that works for you when you hit. Anything on the field is legal. I've been hit in the knee and had surgery due to it. I play 3A, pitch against Major Plus, Major, 3 A guys(who else do you play in pool games but higher rated teams), but got me in the knee for the surgery. A 2A batter. Apolgize after you hit me and all is fine. Otherwise I do what helps the team. When I can't anymore I will stop pitching.
Greg Thomas
Christian Brothers Auto
Houston, Tx
Enough about the middle
Again, just my two cents
June 6, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary,
Maybe I'm playing on another planet from some of my colleagues.
It's not like I haven't been accused of that before but the way I play
the middle is "closed" until someone opens it up.
I won't cite references but there's a lot of guys
who look at it this way.
In Oregon, a legendary power hitter hit a ball so fast back at me
all I saw was a blur.
He must have apologized 10 times and I know he was sincere as
teammates who knew him vouched for him.
First, I didn't care that he apologized and second,
he was one who knew he was wrong for not being more careful.

This goes back to my argument about cheap shots.
Guys like Stoneman, Kenny Danes, Rick Perez,
Mike Burbank and Clatterbaugh feel a responsibility
not to attack through the box.
They pride themselves not only with their ability to control
where they hit the ball but with they're sportsmanship, too.

I'm an infielder by trade.
Since the Miken I have to say to myself
"Miken speed" when we use Ultra 2's
because if I don't, balls that I can normally glove
I won't be able to because the balls get on me
that much faster.
This extra lethality creates more concern/responsibility
in some of us when we bat to "not" hit the ball
intentionally at or near the pitcher.

Gary, a defender in football can take out the knees of an opposing quarterback
while passing, anytime he wants to, both old school and now.
There's an unwritten law to hit high and not low.
Why?
This shows the presence of the fundamental principle
that goes beyond the rules that
I am trying to get across.
June 6, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary et al.
Why is it in softball that if an umpire
can determine that a batter has intentionally gone at the pitcher
he will be ejected?
What underlying principle does this reflect?
June 6, 2007
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2694 posts
I agree with those of you that say there is a difference in hitting at the pitcher and hitting up the middle. My thought is that if you hit at the pitcher, he has a good chance of fielding it or at least, knocking down the ball (not to mention personal injury). I don't hit at the pitcher.
If I get too close to the pitcher I appologize, my intent wasn't to hit the pitcher. I hit a pitcher in our league a week ago, trying to hit over his head. This is the first pitcher that I hit that I can remember.
I almost forgot, I pitch in leagues but no longer in senior tournaments. the last time being against Mission 4 years ago in Houston. At that time we could use U2's with 47 cor balls.
June 6, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
THE WOOD: Yes, u r not understand' my point. I read u're post as to be a person, who does not believe in go' after a pitcher.

Again, re-read some of my post. Both teams were hit' the middle. How many balls were hit @ Al, Wendall, Joe, & Ace. Wendall, was knocked down twice. Wendall, had to 'fall' in order to get out of the way; a great play by any standards

One player, hit the middle, hard everytime in both games. Another player, hit middle, lined out 3 times & 1-2 hopped several more times. (Is This Why, This Player, Has Played 4 So Many Different Teams??)

As I stated, I can not do anything about players hit' the middle. But, what I will do, is stay away from one of these men & let that person know my feelings.

Time to put this post to bed..... The STONEMAN
June 6, 2007
the wood
1087 posts
Stone:
I appreciate the phone call and am glad that you have clarified your position.
I disagree that we ought to abandon the post but I do believe that we ALL should approach it with less passion and more objectivity.
We have a great tool here (in terms of mass communication) and we need to find more positive ways to create meaningful dialogue. Senior softball is different from the game that the young guys play. Yes, there are some rule changes but it's the deep relationships that really drive our game. The most siginificant part of this is mutual respect.
We can all agree to disagree... with dignity.
Bob Woodroof
June 6, 2007
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
403 posts
I am pretty much a pull hitter and have noticed that at times pitchers will throw me outside pitches. When I pull an outside pitch they sometimes go back up the middle. That does not mean I was trying to do it on purpose. To apologize for that in my opinion, shows some class. Also if you have two strikes on you, you should try and hit the middle of the field.

Hitting middle also poses a question I often wonder about: If a pitcher knows a batter is a pull hitter why would they throw the batter an outside pitch? Why not throw him where he likes it and defensively over-load the side he likes to hit?
June 6, 2007
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Einstein, since you started this discussion, let me introduce myself. I agree with your protocol and appreciate you stirring the pot for the good of our hobby. I'm Don Newhard, #22 from Evolution 50's, previous two years on the Road Dogs 50's. I've pitched plenty and know the adrenaline rush of a shot up the middle. I haven't pitched since the 45's but may have to return to the mound since your team and the Mavericks took our two outstanding pitchers. At least I know you won't be coming after me, unless I try to hit it over the pitcher's head in to a wide open center field.

My Opinion:
I agree with your point of not apologizing if you intentionally try to hurt a pitcher. If you have that little regard for another player, keep your yap shut and take what comes back at you. Don't start something you aren't willing to finish. I think that is basically what Stoneman is saying. I agree, however, with everyone else on this post that if you hit a ball up the middle with the intent of getting a hit, trying to keep it away from the pitcher, that is part of the game. If it accidently hits the pitcher instead of him fielding it for an out, a real sportsman will show concern for a fellow player that got hurt in a game. Hopefully the injured player can recognize this, at least by the end of the game.

I agree with Gary that some of the comments in this post miss the mark, if not a bit silly. Let's drop the theme of "if you hit up the middle we're going after your pitcher" and focus on constructive safety suggestions. Pete D says it best in that most balls are hit where they are pitched. When a pitcher throws one that is best hit up the middle, why do we want to dilute the game to the point that you must take a crappy swing that increases the likelihood that you will make an out? We might as well hit the golf course and call it a career or maybe the Barcalounger for NASCAR or TV poker.

My Suggestion:
Rather than change the rules, dilute the competition or impose an unwritten rule of no middle-hitting, consider these suggestions.
1. Provide a portable BP screen for each field and position it just in front of the rubber so a pitcher can duck for cover. If it hits the screen, batter out. If the pitcher pops out from behind the screen, attempts to field the ball and gets hit, it's the same risk currently faced by The Wood at 1st, and all other infielders. THIS GAME IS NOT WITHOUT RISK OF INJURY.
2. Alternative to a screen, lengthen the chalk lines that currenty define the pitchers box towards the plate and back towards 2nd. If a ball is hit inside those lines, BATTER OUT, DEAD BALL,on the umpires call, just like a foul ball hit on "must be fair' Like a play on a "must be fair", the pitcher could make a play at his own risk, or just jump out the way and take an out.
My belief is that these modifications would discourage and penalize the purpose shot at pitchers, improve safety, but preserve the ability to hit a ball where it is pitched.

I also believe that these modifications are appropriate for senior ball and in the same spirit of safety like the line at home plate, run limits in innings, etc.

See you on the fields;
Don Newhard
aka Larry Tate
June 6, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
TATE 22, ENVIRO-VAC, & GARY 19: I will try one more time. Then I will be done w/ this post.....

Last wkend I went 19 for 23. I hit only 1 ball up the middle. The ball that I hit was about 10' to the pitchers right. As I slowly walked to 1st, I told the pitcher that I was not try' to hit middle. This pitcher said, "O.K., & that @ LEAST I keep ed that missle away from him."

As for the Kidz & A's, this was another matter. R U able to understand the follow'?? 1) in both games, 1 player hit HARD balls up the middle IN ALL OF HIS AT BATS. 2) another player hit the pitcher. The 2 pitchers, got this batter out a minium of 5 times. Again, these 2 pitchers, caught or knocked down 6-8 HARD HIT BALLS, that were directd @ them. these balls were not hit to a pitchers left or right.

TATE, WRONG .... WRONG... My point. I will not play w/ a player or team that goes after a pitcher. If, a player goes after my pitcher, we will walk those SOB's. Then, I will get stupid & talk to one of these SOB's in the park' lot.

If, I hit a pitcher by accident, I walk to 1st. I will not run as fast as I can......even if, it causes my team to lose.

SS-USA, has a good rule in the 40's. If, a batter hits the pitcher w/ a line drive, that batter is out & it is a Dead Ball. If, the ball bounces or hits the pitcher in the arms, the ball is LIVE & IT IS not an out.

When I get 2 strikes, I move about 6" of the plate. That is so, if, I get an inside pitch, I can still hit the ball fair. If, the pitch is on the outside, I can hit the ball to Right Center.

LAST POINT... I watched this game & have watched several of these men 4 almost 7 yrs. I have caught a great deal w/ the kids. When grow men, stand out of the batters box, walk the box, take a swing & stop their swing , inwhich the bat head is point' @ the pitsher...... DO NOT TELL ME THAT this lil' player, WAS NOT GOING AFTER the other teams PITCHER. WHY, would 2 men that hit H.R.'s, go middle & the wind is 15 to 40 MPH, blow' from 3rd to Right Center????

U have u're right to disagree & I have my right to state just what I saw & felt. What part of the fact that the KIDZ & A's, have bad blood......... The STONEMAN......
June 6, 2007
Tate22
Men's 55
263 posts
Gary:
Great point about safety and the equipment. I always get a chuckle reading the same people go off on their two favorite topics: What bat is the hottest, and not hitting up the middle. Seems like a bit of a contradiction. My ultimate vote would be to reduce bat performance to a more reasonable level and leave the game alone. None of us has the eyesight and reflexes we used to, so tone down the equipment a little. You can tell I'm not an HR hitter, right?
I don't want to play a game where you are expected to not run out a hit because a bad hop caused it to hit a player, or that you can't hit a ball where it is pitched. Let's just play wiffle ball then.

I wasn't a fan of run limits at first, but with 50+ legs in the outfield I prefer that to 30 minute innings in the field and three inning games.

Don Newhard
June 6, 2007
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
I would contend that hitting at a pitcher and using senior equipment are mutually exclusive, If you would like a picture of senior softball without UII's go to ebay and check out listings for doctored bats under Miken. I can't confirm or deny but I heard rumors of some shenanigans with bats in the 40 division at Reno this past weekend, not one peep about 50 and above.
June 6, 2007
Gary Heifner
248 posts
I try and pull everything. Avoid the middle. However, with two strikes, I have to put it in play. If the pitcher lays it on the outside 3rd of the plate, it is going to right or up the middle. I do see more and more pitchers using excellent protective padding. face mask, shin guards and of course a cup As I posted several years ago on this site, I don't feel a bit sorry for a pitcher who is hit when he releases the ball and stands vertically with his hands at his side. Please take some sort of defensive stance-ready for a ball up the middle. Combine readiness with protective gear and the 6 foot extended mound and injuries should be quite rare.
June 6, 2007
DCPete
238 posts
All they have to do to make the game safer for Pitchers and eliminate all this nonsense hitting up the middle controversy is to bring back the unlimited arc. With the unlimited arc, a good pitcher can be close to 2nd base by the time the ball is hit making the middle a very poor place to hit it to.
June 6, 2007
breeze53
Men's 55
40 posts
DCPete, you are correct that unlimited arc would make it safer for the pitchers. Because nobody will be playing.
June 6, 2007
43MAC
3 posts
I am A pitcher and agree with my friend Joe about the apology thing . I won't even acknowledge you if you apologize I just grab the ball and move on . I was very lucky last weekend in Carson when the Pilchers team thought running up in the box and sending lazers through the middle was funny. Thank God I still have the reflexes to catch those rockets . But one particular middle swinger was aiming at me and took 5 steps towards the middle and sent the hardest fastest line drive at me that in 30+ years on the mound actually gave me a fright , my glove got in front of this missle as my hands shook to react. thats a serious injury blast off a Miken. But then again I took the liberty to hit one back at him and off his leg.And it was also an out cause the shortstop backed the play. Middle is and always will be part of ther game but when the intent is to harm then it is wrong. My response was to tell the umpire if he did not call him out for running out of the box then I would take him out .
June 7, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Mac,
Congratulations on winning against a stacked Pilcher's team.
We ran into those guys in Vegas last year and barely got by them.
I was proud of you and the boys playing as hard and well as you did
coming back after losing the first game
to win back to back for the championship.
What I saw of your games was the best and hardest played softball
I've seen this year.
L'il George, Big George, Artie, Roger, Jeff, Brad and the rest of the boys
did a job and made us all, in the Bay Area, proud.
Way to go.
You're one of the toughest guys around, Mac without being mean
or ill-tempered.
And you're right about what happened to you guys in Florida.
June 7, 2007
43MAC
3 posts
Thanks Joe , and they were stacked . But the better team prevailed. Florida still sits in my craw, It was and still is wrong and we will be vindicated . Terry said he was going to do a survey , ? wonder how long that will take ?Congrads to you and the Young 60's Old A's also. #43
June 9, 2007
bandylegs5
Men's 55
6 posts
Einstein, what is your definition of "the middle"?? Does that include 3'-6' off either side or is it directly at the pitcher??
June 10, 2007
Jetboy
62 posts
Does any league allow/require the pitchers to pitch from behind a screen? I'm thinking that if any ball to hit it would be called a foul ball it would not detract from the game too much.
June 10, 2007
Proudtex40
57 posts
Einstien, several weeks back my team played against Clatter's 60 team. Clatter hit TWO screemers within a foot of our pitcher ( who just happens to be a close friend of his) and Clatter was apologizing before he left the batter box. We all know that Clatter is without a doubt one of the best hitters in the game, but sometimes even Clatter doesn't hit exactly where he is trying to hit. My point is that hitting up the middle is a part of the game, but I certainly agree with those of you that wrote that hitting at the pitcher with the intent of actually hitting him is wrong. I definitely hit the middle a lot and unfortunately I've tagged a couple of pitchers in my life time, but I've also been clocked a couple of times myself during my short stints on the mound. I like the idea of allowing the pitcher 6 feet of freedom behind the rubber as they need all the space they can get with the bats and balls we're using. So with this said I certainly value your opinion (and of course your playing ability) but I would not hesitate to apologize to you if I hit the middle because that would be my true feeling. I have never and would never try to hurt another player (especially an old timer which I'm certainly one) intentionally. Hope to see you at the one of the tournaments this year. Take care and play on....
Steve Shannon
June 10, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hi Steve,
It's always great to hear from you,
the monster player and terrific human being that you are
and talking about Clatter helps me remember the joy
of playing with him and against him.
You're right about intentions but my point was
it doesn't matter whether you hit the middle intentionally or not.
The middle has just been opened by your guy.
And that's the way it is.
I think that's why pitcher's in baseball
retaliate when one of their players gets bonked by the other pitcher.
I understand the need for cooler heads to prevail but
I think that the tradition around and message sent when the middle
is hit are profound aspects of our sport.
Say hi to Clatter for me
and I look forward to seeing you soon.
June 20, 2007
Norq44
58 posts
I have thouroughly enjoyed reading all these posts about safety in softball and the hitting the middle issue, and all the other posts about the equipment we are now playing with. And I agree with Einstein, keep your apologies to yourself when I am on the mound. It would be best for you to apologize to your pitcher rather than me.That's how it works. There is adrenaline, and competitiveness inherent in this game. You do me, I do you. That's how it works. All that said, I truly enjoy pitching, been doing it for a very long time. All of us who are around 60 years old can remember playing with wood bats. In Minnesota the fences were only 275 and it took a pretty good sized man to reach that fence. The aluminum bat changed that. And obviously things are still changing. It has become dangerous to pitch now. Not so much at our age level, but try pitching against 20 to 30 year olds using the newest technologies. Especially now that the doctored bat thing is so prevalent. It is so bad here in Northern Florida that St. John's County recreation is going to do away with all aluminum and composite bats. They are going to wood bats only at all levels of play. Softball comes full circle. I don't think it will fly, I heard that most of the teams that are currently playing here are not going to sign up for this. Anyway, it will keep me playing against the young guys. I'm cautiously rather excited by the prospect. I'll keep the board posted on this, the new league starts in a month.
June 20, 2007
Norq44
58 posts
Gary19, I personally don't care if you hit the middle when I am pitching. There's only a few senior players that I would really worry about, and you aren't one of them. This whole discussion is about a player apologizing after he hits the middle. All I said was don't bother. And just for the record, I never hit the middle when I am swinging a MikenII, I swing for the left field fence.
June 20, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
ROSEY 19: U do not know Don, do u?? The young players r the ones that r & have been us' the illegal bats, just like SENIORS.

Personnal.... Rosey, just about everytime u write, U TURN it into becom' personnal. If, I hit a ball any where close to the middle, I say that I am sorry & I do not run hard to first.

It appears that u do not understand SPORTS. I will not even try to explain to u the reason' behind this think'. U just would not understand. GOOD SPORTSMENSHIP.

ROSEY..... "BE A MAN." How about this, u be the man & rethink that thoughtless statement. R u sure, that u want to start this fight? Yes, u r right about some Players, young & old will think & act badly.

The young men do not respect anyone includ' their ownself. Again, u r a jerk. U just do not seem to be able to understand what is be' written. Todays players r us' hot bats & do not care about anyones safety. It appears that get' a hit or hit' a Home Run @ any cost, is "what really matters."

Gary, I do not have any nice thing to say toward u. U're last post is off the wall. I wish that I could c where u r com' from. Don N, is one of the nicest persons on this planet. I hope that u, yes u Gary, have many friends like Don.

My Thoughts....... The STONEMAN.....
June 20, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
GARY 19: Thanks 4 u're reply. This is a great reply.

1) The middle, should be closed, 4 safety reasons. It does not matter which ball one uses. In the 1st 60 to 70 ft, the ball will go that 1st 60 to 70 ft, in less than .4 of a second.

2) @ night, it is very hard 4 infielders to pick up the ball. I have seen many young & older men that very lucky that the ball did not hit that player. Play' @ night is not agood idea 4 SENIORS.

3) I have watched & played in games in which both teams were go' after each teams pitcher. Yes, I have seen several pitcher hit several times in a game. I have even seen a pitcher high 5 his 1st base coach, after that pitcher or player drilled the other teams pitcher.

4) Again, I have watched & played in games in which the UMP, had to warn both teams about go' after each others pitcher.

5) Gary, when some of us state "go' middle", we mean try' to hit the pitcher or hit the ball up the middle & if, one hits the pitcher........well.... tuff sh..... Players do not care, if another player gets hurt. When players swing & let u know, that that player is try' to hurt a pitcher.

6) I will not play w/ a team that goes middle or even tries to hurt the other teams pitcher. In Carson City a few wks ago, on a Saturday night, I informed the team that picked me up; ODB, that if, anyone hit this pitcher, I would quit.....PERIOD...

7) Gary, it has gotten to the point, that players r try' to protect their pitcher. U hit the middle or my pitcher & I will go after u're pitcher. ( this think' is wrong!!) Yes, take it up w/ the jerk in the park' lot!! This is also, childish.

8) Say' that u did not try to hit a pitcher & not run' hard to 1st base, shows that pitcher & his team that u really did not go after that person. I hope that u understand this. Teams that go after pitchers, will run hard, etc, etc. That is when TASTE TALK' & threats get started.

9) Gary, some of this conversation was about 1 player hit' rope after rope up the middle & both pitchers get' hit, knocked down, etc.

10) Gary, say' that one is sorry, is one of the HARDEST THINGS 4 humans to another human. (Have u ever said this to a close friend or wife??)

11) Don, is not a coward. Don, has dropped his glove. I do get it & I am tired of watch' all of the clowns go' middle. Don, will more than likely confront one of these "clowns" & hit that jerk w/ a softball. POINT HERE..... Some of these players r hid' behind the City etc. SAD MATTER.

12) In this town, we have several pro softball players that play league & in a few of the small Tournaments. These young men, do not mind go' middle; even middle w/ their shaved bats & ZN balls.

It appears that the problem some of us have seen, may not be tak' place in the ball parks that u, Gary, r play' in.

THANKS & GOOD LUCK.....The STONEMAN
June 21, 2007
Norq44
58 posts
Gary 19 , I did not make it personal, you did. Your statement "Could it be because by doing that YOU wouldn't be able to hide behind YOUR Miken" was taken very personally! Gary, if you cannot see that pitching slow pitch softball has become dangerous in today's world, especially when participating with the young adults out there today, then you and I will never be able to come to an accord.
Let me attempt to set the record straight with you: I pitch, have been doing so for nearly 40 years. I still play with one of my sons in the young adult league. I have not hooked up with a senior team here in Florida yet, but I played senior softball for 8 years in Vegas until I moved. Ask anyone there who knows me, they will tell you that I don't "hide behind my Miken" .
I have a suggestion! If it's controversy you want and desire, there is another board you should start posting on. It's theoldscout.com message board. Honestly, you will fit right in there.
June 21, 2007
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
g-19 so your advocating punching the guy out instead of hitting middle on the pitcher if its done to the opposing pitcher.get real.
joe when you play for a bunch of middle hitting jerks thats what you get back.i have seen the old a's do it in the norcal tourney's,reason was they were practicing when hrs are out,hell they are singles in the upper divs why do it.

so personally, everyone STFU and pitch or get off the mound.i will still continue to say sorry if i get a pitcher as a common courtesy and to make sure he is alright.

oh i also pitch for the kids and tell them to hit where they need to,to get a hit.if they go middle,oh well.i can take care of myself and if need be can take it back up the middle to prove a point.
June 21, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I love the Bin Laden analogy, Gary,
for lots of reasons and you are and can help make this forum
a vibrant and dynamic place for us seniors to come,
read, react and learn about important issues
as you and we all are respectful and show respect for others.
Keep up the good work.

Softball comes from baseball, Gary.
Most if not all of the it's underpinnings, lore, traditions and protocol
come from the game most of grew up adoring.
America's pastime.
Pitchers protecting their hitters or retaliating against another pitcher
for being reckless was/is a fundamental part of the game
we have been playing all our lives
and it carries over to softball.

You hit our player.
I don't hit you.
I hit your player.
It's not about cowardice.
I don't know where you're getting this idea from.
It's logical but not founded in the lore of the game.

The most respected player I've ever played with
who will remain anonymous at this time
a monster of a man and player
told me in his days with the Steele's, Campbell's Carpets, Dan Smith et al
that the first time a ball went through the box
nothing had to be said to any of them
but they all would start whistling balls through and at the opposing pitcher.
And this guy didn't invent the phenomenon.

I wish we were in a perfect world where no one tried to endanger or hurt anyone,
or we didn't have to stand up and be ready to fight
to gain someone's respect
but I believe that mutuality and respect go hand in hand
and if you "endanger" or any of my teammates
then we must/will send you a message to maintain
the respect and mutuality that is necessary for any effective competition
to take place.
And the batters must do it because the pitchers can't put a ball
in someone's ear like they can in hardball.
You don't know how many times I wish we were playing hardball
when I've been on the mound and up comes a batter
who needs some behavior modification.

Gary.
It takes an effort for me to hit the ball anywhere near a pitcher.
And most of the guys I play with are the same.
We don't/won't hit the ball anywhere near the pitcher
because of his vulnerability given today's lethal bat/ball combinations
but if you don't protect my pitcher the same way I protect yours
then you get what's coming to you.

Fundamentally, in softball,
because batters have no fear of pitcher's retaliation
as they do in hardball
they can become licentious and reckless
regarding the most vulnerable player on the field,
hitting the ball whenever, where ever they feel like.
And if there is an act of cowardice somewhere in the equation
it is here when the batter takes advantage,
a cheap shot if you will
of an unarmed man
in this case, the pitcher,
who is unable to retaliate.
June 21, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
GARY 19: U still r not understand' this discussion. If, a player hits the ball 10 ft or so left or right of a pitcher, that is O.K. @ Carson City, that pitcher did not c the ball that I hit 10 to 15 ft to his right (S.S.). Yes, he was scared & so, I stated that I did not mean to hit a pitch @ night any where close to him (the pitcher).

We started w/ a 6'-5' to 6'-7" 230 lbs man hiting the pitcher 7 times in a row. 3 line drives, 2-3 one hop, 1 line drive that took the pitchers glove off, etc. The wind was 20 to 45 MPH blow' to R.C. or across the field. We r talk' about balls that travel 18' to 20' farther do to the fields elevation (4700 ft above Sea Level).

As far as the SENIOR BATS, I can not wait 4 this practice is stopped. Most power hitters that I have played against, do not need the U-2 or SENIOR COMBAT to hit Home Runs.

Gary, safety reasons, YES. R u listen'????? The 40 & 44 cor balls travel 3.57 MPH faster than a 47 or 50 cor ball. As far as balls, in the 1st 60 to 70ft, there is NO SAFE BALL. NO SAFE BALL to HIT!!! Balls will travel the 1st 60 to 70 ft in less than .4 of a second.

Gary, a single wall bat & a doulbe wall bat..... the double wall bat, allows a batter to hit the long ball MORE OFTEN. R U UNDERSTAND' THIS POINT??? A single wall bat can cause a softball to travel as far as a double wall bat!! The double wall bat will allow a batter to hit more long balls. NOT LONGER, but, more often!!!

Gary, I will not play w/ a team or in a game inwhich my team mates r go' after the other teams pitcher. Yes, I have waited & followed players into the park' lot. ENOUGH SAID..

I have seen games in which a teams pitcher has told his team mates to cut the crap. If, not, one of his team mate could pitch the rest of the game.

Also, in 4 games a player did not come close to the middle in 2 games. Then in the last 2 games, this batter, hits all 8-10 balls w/ in 5 ft or less of the other teams pitcher. 4 games & only 1 ball in the middle. Then in the last 2 games, a player hits middle in all of his @ bats......

GOOD LUCK......The STONEMAN
June 21, 2007
Mango
Men's 50
92 posts
I was playing ball a few years back and hit a missile to left that was knuckling as soon as it left the bat. It hit the LEFT FIELDER in the forehead. He needed stitches to close the gash in his forehead. I ran hard to second base and they stopped play. As he was being helped off the field I apologized. Another time I hit a ball that bounced up and hit the third baseman in the forearm and broke (fractured) his arm. I ran hard to first. He was one of my friends. I told him I was sorry. And still another time I was playing in a world series and some big country boy was on the mound and started verbally abusing one of our players. My teammate in front of me hit him in the shin and ran to first. Next I hit him in the thigh and the ball bounced off him out of play. I jogged to first. Neither of us apologized to him.

I think this thread started out about apologizing after hitting a pitcher. I donít see anything wrong with that if you werenít trying to hit him. In the first two cases above I was sorry. In the third case I wasnít and didnít say anything.

Iíve hit middle my whole career(it was never an issue in competitive siftball) as well as the 5/6 hole. Sometimes the shortstop cheats in the hole and I try and go 1/6. If I see the pitcher is falling off to cover 1/6 I try and go 1/4. Usually I donít try to hit the ball AT anyone. Iím not perfect and sometimes I miss and I either make an out or someone gets scared or hurt. If anyone (pitcher/ 3rd base/ 1st base) gets hurt and I didnít mean to hit him I say Iím sorry. I donít think itís disingenuous.
June 22, 2007
smooth01
Men's 50
123 posts
There is no sacred ground in softball,the whole field is in play, GET OVER IT!.
June 22, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
SMOOTHLESS 01: Bad post. I hope u do not pitch. GET OVER IT??? How many pitchers have u seen hit in the face or get hit & had broken bones??

What is u're lack of understand'??? This post was about 60 yr ol' men go' up the middle @ each teams pitcher. Both teams pitchers had several ropes hit @ each others. 1 teams pitcher was knocked down twice & the other teams pitchers knocked down several balls. 1 pitcher, had his glove knocked off.

R U ABLE TO COMPERHEND?? If, a player hits the middle, that's one thing. But, when 2 players hit every fair pitch w/ in a few ft. of a pitcher???

WHAT DO U NOT UNDERSTAND?? A player hit 3 straight line drives, several 1 hop, & 2 balls off of a pitcher, in just 2 games. This 1 player made 6 to 8 out, min', in 2 games.

No, I will not get over it. How about if, we ever play against each other, I will pitch to u & u can pitch to me??? U can hit the U-2 & I will hit my Miken 600 Series or Worth M-7.

SMOOTH-LESS... If, we play by u're think', than slide hard w/ steel spikes high. Alter any bat, use 60 cor 700 comp balls (like WSL). How about throw the ball around & if, u hit a base runner on a bag, u get a free lap dance, etc, etc??

I am glad that u r play' in Ohio. U r a true "heartless" SENIOR.. I hope that u never c a pitcher killed or hit in the face. I HAVE WASTED MY TIME W/ THIS POST TO U, SMOOTH 01....

The STONEMAN... wast' my time w/ u smooth 01....
June 23, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary,
What does swinging ultras and using good balls have to do with leaving the pitchers
alone.
The best hitters I know don't hit the ball anywhere near the pitcher
unless they mean to, regardless of what they're swinging.
It's the presence of this core value, to coin a political phrase,
that is key to the argument.
You either agree that real men in softball stay away from the pitcher as a rule
or you don't and adding my caveat, if you do you've opened up the middle
for your pitcher.
How come you know so much about Smooth?
What's your philosophy about guys or girls who use anonymity on this website
and have you or do you sometimes use aliases when making comments?
I'm growing weary of your one note answer to everything which seems to be
no.
Be careful.
You may be revealing more to us about who you are then you realize.
June 23, 2007
smooth01
Men's 50
123 posts
Stoneman-It seems no one "UNDERSTANDS," according to you. Gary 19 doesn't understand,Enviro-vac doesn't understand, Tate 22 doesn't understand, Wood doesn't understand,Smooth01 doesn't understand,and Rosey doesn't understand you,seems nobody on this board understands you. What I do understand is that there was 2 teams with some bad blood between them and they both tried to take it out on the pitcher, I do not think that was right and would not encourage that from my teamates,and should have been controled by the umpires if team members couldn't .Going middle like that seems like an isolated problem between those 2 teams. I was pitching against a young team and had a ball hit back at me intentionally, as the guy was a former teammate, luckily I got my glove up just as the ball hit my jaw and knocked me to the ground, the guy stood on first and jumped up and down in excitement.All my teamates were upset and wanted to retaliate,to keep everyone cool,I told them"It's part of the game, the whloe fields open."Was it bush? Hell yes, but when you get to age when you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
June 23, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary,
We disagree.
That's OK with me.
But you have a penchant for pushing an argument
to the personal and I'm not sure why
but I know it's confrontational
and causes the hair on my back to stand up.
And being Italian, that's a lot of hair.
So, I'm going to give you some free advice
and see if you get it.

Stay on the argument as you have one
and stay off being personal unless someone comes after you
or someone else.
Avoid words like coward and hypocrite as/if you truly care
about teaching and learning from a debate.
And if you don't or can't then like the guys
who go up the middle indiscriminantly
you'll have earned and deserve the lack of respect coming your way.
June 23, 2007
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
GARY.. U R ROSEY from now on. U 2 r just simple Smart Mouths... Any further answering to either of u're post is a waste of time.

Good Luck & maybe, u do c thingd in a better light!!

So..........long, boys...
June 23, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary,
We're done talking on this board.
You don't get or want to get what I'm talking about
and it will be at best a waste of my time
to continue on this discussion.
I spent years teaching high school
and am familiar with the kind of stonewalling you are doing.

Email me at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
if you want to continue this discussion and we can make it as
personal as you'd like.
June 24, 2007
Norq44
58 posts
Einstein and Stoneman, you men came to the same conclusion that I did. I decided that any further attempts at communicating with Gary 19 were a complete waste of my time. Therfore I stopped. But you guys keep up the good work. I enjoy reading your posts.!
June 25, 2007
Norq44
58 posts
Gary 19, that last post is going to cost you! You know how you have been advocating the confront the person who has offended? Well, I am Don Norquist. I live in St. Augustine Florida, I am not currently affiliated with any Senior Softball team at the moment, but I will be soon. If you are the man that you think you are, you will post your name and the team you play for. I am sure that somewhere sometime our paths will cross. Then you and I can have our face to face meeting and I will show you how much of a "Wuss" I am. The only post from you that I will ever respond to is your name, your team, and your city.
Sincerely,
Don Norquist
Norq44
June 25, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Don,
Your frustration is recognized and understood.
There's no place for cowardice, unwarranted sarcasm or cruelty
in our association or any other association of real men and women.
Some people never get it until it lands on them with both feet.
You're the kind of person that makes us all look good.
Stay with us.
We're with you and good luck
team hunting.
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