http://seniorsoftball.com/?page=12

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 2 members: DoubleDee27, mckenzie; 89 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: dead ball out

Posted Discussion
Oct. 28, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
dead ball out
There was MUCH controversy and rightly so this weekend
in Phoenix around the pitcher/dead ball out rule
and everyone got a chance to see it in action.
The most lethal shot I saw hit all weekend
just missed hitting a pitcher who had back straight up and out
of the box.
The rule wouldn't have covered him had the ball hit him
which isn't right.
Next, making it an out is NOT enough deterrent.
It should be ejection/suspension if we want to put some balls into it.
The rule should apply to hitting the pitcher anytime, anywhere
as long as he's not trying to use his body to block the ball
a la catcher/3rd base skills.
Period.

Also, with balls and bats being dumbed down all the time
which will change the game we've grown to love to something much less
we need to effect a change that will allow us to protect the pitcher
meaningfully while allowing hitters the fundamental enjoyment of being able to hit/
drive the ball well.
Masks?
Screens?
Don't laugh.
I played a game a week ago in town with the screen
and it might, practically speaking, be the way through this all.
Then,
we won't have to help continue to support those forces in and around our game
that will benefit the most from dumbing down our game.
Guys can hit away with new found freedom and enjoyment and pitchers won't need
to keep their health/life insurance premiums up to date.
Oct. 28, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Seriously, what ever happened to pitchers deterring batters by catching the ball? A pitcher should be his own best friend.

And what bats have been "dumbed down"?
Oct. 28, 2008
turn2
486 posts
Joe,
I like the idea of using a screen. It will protect the pitcher if he can stay behind it. Then we can move on to something else.
It will also protect when teams have to play down. We have played some 50 and 55 major plus teams and when our team is 60 we are a little slower than these other teams.
Each team needs to let these other guys that say they can pitch get up and face the real big power hiters. Then let them decide on the screen.
Later,
Donnie
Oct. 28, 2008
Cognac Lite
Men's 50
32 posts
Dr. Einstein,

I just read your post. I think playing with a screen would be ideal. If the ball hits the screen, it should be a dead ball. This may sound crazy but it could possibly be a ground ruled single or an out.

Dirty, this is senior ball. For obvious reasons, players reflexes have diminished. Yes, a picture should be able to field his or her position. We must be realistic too.
Oct. 28, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
i'm on both sides of the fence on this one(or screen).i do pitch (did huntsman in the 50 M bracket)and i'm 58,soon to be 59.i still pitch against the kids in u-trip and asa.i don't like the hitting the pitcher rule whats so ever.the prol so far i see is when an older team has to play a younger team,don't care if its M+ dropping down to play a M or even a AAA.the younger guys have the better reflexes and speed.our senior league had teams that range from 45 to 60(the 60 team was a major)most of the rest were AAA,and you could really see the diff in the play and speed compared to the younger guys.yes they could win but only about 50% time.so LD's quit matching the older guys against the younger ones.
Oct. 28, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
dang meant TD's
Oct. 28, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
if a screen is used make it a DB strike if it does hit it,and don't make the screen more than 2' wide.now with a throw hitting it what will we do for that,thats the proll i have with a screen.can it be a collapsable one,or hows about the easy one hopper the pitcher could of turned 2 on and is not allowed to by the ball hitting the screen.what about a pitcher who doesn't stay behind the screen and gets drilled.
guess there really isn't a good answer for this situation(using a screen).
Oct. 28, 2008
Cognac Lite
Men's 50
32 posts
Pitcher......I was teaching my english class while I be typing hahahaha
Oct. 28, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
i just thought was b/c of your name here :):):)
Oct. 28, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Joe what a pleasure, thanks for everything. Dirty I won't indulge you on the bats it is what it is. SSUSA had 323 teams, it is really simple I doubt the bats are a discussion point. That said I have had the pleasure this year to play against or see most of the top hitters in the country. What I have noticed is I'm not really sure the senior bats for the first 100 ft or so are that much different. I have two non senior bats that are excellent I don't use them because I'm not interested in explaining why I'm not swinging a senior bat. Dirty you really need to get away from your 100 Sq mile radius, your thoughts on the game itself are fine but there is no way you can render an opinion on hitters and situations you've never seen. I was on the diamond for the shot that Einstein referenced and believe what he is writing, the batter who hit it is very powerful and the bat would not have made a difference. He was also very shook up even though it was a near miss.
Oct. 28, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Joe remember our talk on the hockey goalie mask, mid 70's no goalie wore a mask, look at what is going on now it is an accepted part of the game.
Oct. 28, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
What happens when a throw inevitably hits the screen? Or a runner is safe because a fielder had to wait to move over to throw around it? Changing the game for the sake of the special bats is just silly.
Oct. 28, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
joe and joe,worth makes a real light mask helmit type that is specific for softball pitchers.has a metal cage with a hockey type helmit top.has air holes on top so as not to heat ya up.i've been thinking about it myself.runs $60.
Oct. 28, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Why would you need more than a mask? Who gets hit on the top of the head? And how would that occur?
Oct. 28, 2008
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
Sometimes the more you try to fix something with a rule, the more you keep bandaging it because of problems with it. The orange bag is another good example because it was designed for safety, but invariably an association changes part of their rules on it to where they all have different rules about various aspects of what could happen. While I have a lot of issues with the pitcher safety rule, its application seems to be very much an issue. It sounds like the umpires have made up their own interpretations which means that everyone has to hold their breath and see what happens next. I will say that I have never been involved with a senior game where the batters acted like they were trying to hit a pitcher; it is not so in the younger age groups, and they get much more emotional about it. Having been in situations where the pitcher was taken away in an ambulance because they were drilled in the face, I would advocate the use of a Gameface mask but not require it. A screen would definitely be a step in the wrong direction.

Now here are 2 things that are being done other places, neither of which I think helps either. ASA allows the pitcher to use a first baseman's mitt now for safety which I know would not make me feel any better if I was pitching. In small ball leagues and tournaments here, we make the pitcher come from the batting team, and the defense plays without a pitcher (pitcher bats first every inning). I will not even go into the odd things that happen in this instance, but it does keep anyone who intentionally goes to the middle out of it more since the middle is one of their own. Of course I read a few years ago that most pitcher deaths in softball occur in batting practice to their own team (pitcher is more relaxed, and batters hit pitches that they usually would not).

Simple and less complicated is the way to go always on rules.
Oct. 28, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Nancy, great post.
Oct. 28, 2008
RedEye
Men's 60
92 posts
Was in Phoenix this past weekend. 55 AAA.
I saw 5 pitchers get drilled while in the box & only 2 get called dead ball out. Another 2 were drilled out behind the box & no call. Base umpired made the call in each of them. We had a shot hit up the middle & never hit the pitcher but was in the box & ruled dead ball out.
Each umpire had a different opinion on how to call it or not call it. Not very consistence at all. Needs some work.
I say NO to a screen, only in BP.
Oct. 28, 2008
leftie
Men's 50
41 posts
The problem with the pitcher protection rule is the umpires interpretation.
I had an umpire tell me at Cesar Chavez that unless the pitcher was actually hit by the ball, he wouldn't enforce the rule. Furthermore, if the pitcher made any attempt to deflect the ball from his body while inside the pitchers box, the rule wouldn't be enforced....HuH?
Also, if SSUSA is going to have night games, They should put new balls in play.
...And finally, just a little fiction and fact...
Pitchers should wear face masks and a heart protector under their jerseys. It has been my experience that all
the so-called stud batters have zero bat control.
Oct. 28, 2008
CAT
148 posts
The "dead ball out" probably cost our team a chance to go to the finals in the winner's bracket. All of the umpires can NOT be on the same page with this type of ruling - too, too judgemental, It affected many teams, other than ours, in Phoenix this past weekend. I, as many other ball players, like using the high powered bats, but when we start changing the basis concept and rules of sofball, something else needs to be done.
Oct. 28, 2008
turn2
486 posts
I thought the ball had to hit the pitcher for it to be an out. I heard players say they were called out when it went to close to the pitcher.
Did the umps just decide to call whatever they wanted? Why have a rule if they do not go by it?
My 2 cents
Donnie
Oct. 28, 2008
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
Donnie, this is what is in the rulebook:
PITCHER SAFETY: Any batted ball striking the pitcher (except his arms while not in a protective or self-defense position) before hitting the ground will be a dead-ball out.

...but this is in the rule changes:
Rule Modification – Specific language will be published shortly, but the Pitcher’s Protection Rule will
apply only if the pitcher is in the Pitcher’s Box and, in the judgment of the umpire, the Pitcher has no
reasonable chance to make a defensive play on the ball. The component of the prior rule that limited its
application only to the ‘line drive’ batted ball will be removed.
Oct. 28, 2008
DoubleL10
Men's 65
834 posts
Donnie, I'm looking at the Senior Softball News and it specifically states that the Pitcher Protection Rule will apply only if the pitcher is hit while in the pitcher's box, AND, in the umpire's judgement, has no chance to make a defensive play on the ball.

I played with a 50s Major team this past weekend and never saw the call made in our games or any of the games on Sunday.

Are y'all playing in either of the WinterNationals? We are planning to go to Vegas.
Oct. 28, 2008
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
I played in the 55 majors last weekend, and in the 7 games we played, along with the many I watched, the umps didnt call anybody out for hitting in the pitchers box. Like Nancy said, the most dangerous time for anyone that is pitching seems to be during batting practice. You will go after bad pitches, screw up, and end up hitting one where you shouldnt. But the way this rule is written it will never be enforced correctly. Too much is left up to the umps discretion, and from what I read here, their discretion is all over the place. SSUSA needs to go back to the drawing board on this.
Oct. 28, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
We played 50 major in Phoenix this past week end and it didn't take 5 minutes of the top of the first inning before this rule was applied.Our pitcher was hit in the inside of his right angle, batter called out 8 am game not really loose yet.The following night our lead off hitter hit a ball up the middle that deflected off the pitchers glove and hit him in the mouth,hitter called out.Pitcher try to make a defensive play and ball deflected off glove than hit pitcher was that called corectly?We did not argue because of the injury it was not intentionally hit up the middle.Seen a number of other instances as well.I am also concerned about the bats and ball combination.DEADLY!In one of our games we had the apposing SS and 3rd baeman playing shallow left field after nearly getting their heads taken off.Too many home runs and standing around by defensive players watching balls fly over the fence.Game delays waiting for more balls.the cost of the extra balls.I think it needs a little tweeking to make it more authentic. more realistic.Hey Joe and Einstein good to see you guys again Rick as well.Now Joe I know you and Einstein are agaist dumbing down the equipment maybe just a little softer ball for the good of man kind.I realize that won't eliminate the problem because of the size of some of the players but it would help a little.Screen is just another obstacle to run into and injure a infielder or pitcher on loose balls on the infield. The reason I responded is because of a lot of what I seen this past weekend.Including the shot Einstein took.

LOL
Ray
Oct. 28, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
762 posts
We had it called against us twice in same game, both justified. One ball caught the pitcher in the foot and another went between the pitchers legs, clipping him in the shin. The foot deal was painful, but the one between his legs could have been really bad.

I had just hit one about 350 that the umpire called foul and the pitcher threw one that would have hit the front outside part of the plate. I probably should have let it go, but I did not want to go down 2 strikes and I thought I could hit it out to center. I was tired and not for enough up in the box, either way, very very scary for the pitcher.

This is a good rule, but it needs some tweaking, Our pitcher always pitched in the back of the box and probably had 10 balls go off his glove or whiz by him. By the rule no call. Who knows the answer.
Oct. 28, 2008
43MAC
3 posts
Being a pitcher myself and playing Major + in the 50's division and also being hit by a line drive at my knucklehead just reacting in the nick of time to save my grill and also being out of the so called safety box I take offense to this silly , dumb rule . No one in our division stands inside that box and pitches he is already ten feet out before the batter swings , so rule loses effect after pitch leaves hand . Having said that , I propose a rule of side retired ,next inning if you hit the pitcher period. Make the penalty worth having and deterring the batter from killing one of us.iIf Two outs already , start next inning with two outs . A penalty worth the batters staying out of the middle . Just my 2 cents worth . #43
Oct. 28, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Mikee,
Last I saw you, Charlie and RIcky
you were doing an OJ at the airport
going for the Gate D security check point
to make your plane, I thought.
I like your side out argument.
That's more than a dead ball out
and less than the ejection I was proposing
but like you, it's got balls.
And the pitcher's box
shouldn't mean a thing.
Hit the pitcher and your whole team gets a time out.
I like it.
Oct. 28, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Donnie,
I guess that means that if/when we move to the screen
that Clatter might make a comeback.
He told me the only way he'll go back to the mound
and pitch like he did in college
is with a screen.
How's Butchie doin'?
Oct. 29, 2008
turn2
486 posts
Joe,
Butch is doing better. Clatta might make a good pitcher with a screen. We tried him once and he threw 4 balls and walked off the mound.
Larry We will not be going to the winter worlds. I am out of vacation time and also I left all my money in Phoenix at the casinos. I would like to have gone to vegas to play and also would have had a lot of fun gambling.
Later,
Donnie
Oct. 30, 2008
JOHN BOB
Men's 60
76 posts
I agree with most to remove that pitcher has to be in box. If a pitcher can not back up 3 or 4 steps after pitching a ball 12 feet high then there are other position's he can play or AH. NO SCREENS PLEASE!!!!
Oct. 30, 2008
JOHN BOB
Men's 60
76 posts
softball4 was that laser you hit up the middle against us in finals of loser bracket 55 Major? Your right that was scary, I play 3rd base and your next time up you hit a line drive over my head that ate up our left fielder, thanks for not hitting that shot on the ground. Congratulation to NCI very good team sorry Jim & Joe's didn't give you a better game but we ran out of steam playing 8 games in 2 days 4 in a row Sunday and winning last 2 by 1 run. We had 2 great games with Old Dawgs they gave us our 1st loss 26-25 then we won 22-21 in semi finals of loser bracket.
Oct. 30, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
762 posts
Thanks, half of the team is moving on to 60's next year. Hopefully we can retool with good team chemistry. A couple of guys absolutely want to stay Major. I don't care where we are classified, as long as the team is made up of good people.

Yes that was me. That and one other was the only 2 balls I hit any where near the pitcher. When I was younger, I lived in the middle because I was not one of the "designated" HR hitters. Not anymore, everybody has to work the next day.

You guys played everybody tough, only reason we went off on you guys is we did not want to hear that whistle the whole game. We figured if we scored early and often it would not come out and for the most part it worked..
Oct. 30, 2008
JOHN BOB
Men's 60
76 posts
We are moving to 60's also, all but 5 out of 15 players can move up next year. I don't know where those whisle's came from.
Oct. 30, 2008
stick8
1301 posts
The way the rule was explained to us (Gekle) by the ump we had in our first play in game was misleading compared to what I've read here. Never mind that this wasn't a good umpire, he called it the "halo rule". From what I got out of him any ball that goes thru the pitching box, regardless whether it strikes a pitcher or not is an out.
The next day we were playing NW Legends. I led off the game by hitting a line drive slightly to the left of the pitcher outside the box. He stuck his glove out and the ball hit his wrist and carommed off--striking him in the mouth. The ump called dead ball out. I didn't argue and I rushed to the pitcher to see if he was OK. (turned out he got 13 stitches).
According to how our first ump explained the rule I wouldn't have been out because the ball first hit his wrist outside the pitching box. What's the proper ruling?
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners