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Discussion: RESPONSE TO MESSAGE THREADS REMOVED

Posted Discussion
Nov. 7, 2008
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
RESPONSE TO MESSAGE THREADS REMOVED
It's regrettable that the "removed" threads can't be examined for interested parties to see whether it was reasonable that they were removed.

I feel for the SSUSA STAFF who, probably thinking they were providing a valuable service to Senior Softball Players, instead have to police a chaotic war zone.

On the other hand, I have generally found Einstein's posts (though sometimes repetitious) to make sense.

If "repetitious" posts are a crime, I would think that Gary19/The Nex Generation/Dirty is the King of this offense. If "irrelevant" posts are a crime, I don't think I have ever seen such a post from Einstein.

I was surprised that SSUSA eliminated any possibility of direct response to their killing of threads when they forbade the opportunity to respond directly to their announcement (by killing that thread).

Please don't pee in the pool! And don't obstruct those who try to keep the water clean!

Thanks,
Jano23
Nov. 8, 2008
Fred Scerra
Men's 80
542 posts
As a long time member of this board IMO they were deserved. At times it gets to personnel between those two and they get carried away..
Nov. 8, 2008
tattooball
605 posts
Did you also find his self admitted slanderous post's against a great company of hard working americans sensable?
Nov. 8, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Trump, what in God's name are you referring to? And if you have the guts to answer this, try being specific.
Nov. 8, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Bravo Staff! Despite the comments of Jano23, almost all of which I believe are thoughtful, it's probably not up to us as members to take sides and debate if a thread should have been removed. I'm sure it's tough enough for them to 'flush the toilet' on an entire thread in the first place. I also like the apparent all or none situation it places us in.

This forum has a long history of a small number of people appearing to think the board is theirs and that any dissent from their positions is to be ridiculed. And that ridicule takes the form of both attacks on the actual opinions expressed and on those that express them. Enough is enough. I like the new approach. What will really be 'regrettable' is if the membership doesn't respond properly and more threads are flushed. Thank you.

Dirty- trumpball was referring to a specific series of posts by Mr. einstein that were harmful to the company trumpball works for. It's not about you this time.

Jano- Mr. einstein repetitive posts all of the time. One of his favorites was posted to, and removed from, almost every active thread here a couple dozen of times in the last week.
Nov. 8, 2008
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
DesertGuy
On further reflection, I can see the truth of what you are saying.
Jano
Nov. 8, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Thanks. My sincere apologies to Trumpball.
Nov. 8, 2008
Dbax
Men's 60
1265 posts
Waaaaaaa! Two guys ruined it for the rest of us. Waaaaaa!
Nov. 8, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Trumpball,
I made numerous points made while we were arguing
most of which are still valid regarding ball/bat combos,
trends, concerns that are shared by the majority of senior softball players
and further are undisturbed or opposed by the personal way our argument grew out.
If you want to reprise the arguments, here, once again
if you see that as valuable, let's do it.
You can also contact me anytime
as we have done before if you wish to speak with me more
about any concerns/opinions between us.
Nov. 8, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There are thousands of senior softball players
many of whom play, read, react and never post comments
who embody the soul of Senior softball.
They figure all this stuff out
who's who and what's what.
They can't be fooled by power plays and trouble makers.
These are the folks whose I'm talking to
this is the audience I care about most.

I agree completely with Jan's first post
about "thowing the baby out with the bathwater"
and have said as much to SSUSA staff.
Solutions must be accurate and more directly related
to the problems and/or the people who are fundamentally responsible.
The antagonist is traditionally the starter of trouble and conflict.
In all my conflict resolution experience
it is the antagonist that must be recognized and deal with
if there is to be any long lasting and fair resolution.
Look for the guy who "starts" stuff, the first one,
if you will, to cast a stone. and there's where the problem lies.
Nov. 8, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Fred,
GS and I are very different people
coming for 2 very different points of view
and you're facile and incorrect judgement
say more about you then either one of us.
I don't like people being fundamentally disrespectful
to me or anyone else in my group.
It never feels right or good.
People who call each other names like stupid,
or dumb I find disparaging and unacceptable
just like in the SSUSA standards
that Dave is always reminding us of
and the difficulty he experiences in deciding to apply these standards.

I won't name names, Fred,
but I will oppose anyone who's first to disrespect or violate
the dignity we as human beings need and deserve
whether on this site, on the field or anywhere else.

You can email me
as can anyone anytime if you want to discuss further any made points or concerns with me or comment more personally about anything I have to say.
Nov. 8, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Been a long, long time since I've seen the old "silent majority" ruse trotted out to rationalize questionable behavior. Almost 40 years ago I think since Richard Nixon tried that one on us to rally support for the Vietnam War. Didn't turn out too well for him as I recall.

But I think the best recent one I've seen is from the Swiss economist Gerhard Kocher. "The silent majority is silent, and that is best for everybody." By extension, maybe a bit more silence around here would be a good thing, too.

And also a hope that no one buys into the theory of it being OK to go after someone if they started it. If that were true, there wouldn't be any penalties in sports for the guy that smacks the other guy that did him wrong.

I still like the new approach. Peer pressure usually works (eventually) on those with a true conscience and a concern for bettering the community. We're all in this together, and that's a good thing.
Nov. 8, 2008
TOMAR77
Men's 55
197 posts
I agree with DesertGuy, SSUSA offers this board as a service, a venue to communicate our opinions about senior softball's well being. I trust SSUSA judgment in monitoring this board they have an inherent responsibility to maintain the integrity, and worthiness of this board. If your posts are approriate, useful, insightful and without ill-will I am certain your post will appear. I do believe it is unfortunate that a whole thread has to be removed because of someone's inappropirate post ! It create's a loss of many informative post's. If an individual is posting degoradory comments there by causing the removal of useful threads maybe that person should be supended.
tomar77
Nov. 8, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Thanks TOMAR77- I appreciate your thinking being along the same lines as mine on this one. I also don't like the entire thread going away, but I understand it. This seems to me to be about making everyone accountable (one or Mr. einsteins favorite words) for what happens here. If a trend develpps where there is a small, identifiable number of posters responsible for threads getting flushed, then one of two things should happen. Ssusa should 'flush' those posters and until they do, the rest of us should put peer pressure on them to conform. This is simple stuff, and I'm all for a happy forum community and against bickering and bullying from a very small minority. Joncon has it right when he says something along the lines of "lighten up, this is just a bonch of old men playing a girl's game!" He's right.
Nov. 8, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joey, do you EVER look in the mirror?
Nov. 8, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Any guy posting disparaging or belittling comments
should be dealt with directly by Dave or SSUSA.
Then no one is in danger of being chopped.
Why make a one step process in to a 2 or more one?
Find the troublemaker and lose him.
Nov. 8, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
DesertGuy,
If you expect a comment from me
you need to show up and sign in like many of us have.
And if you have any real questions or concerns
about my motivation or effect
step up and email me at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com.
Nov. 8, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
I'm here and I'm signed in. You asked for my 'softball ID' a while back, and it wss given to you. Check back on my posts if you need a memory refresher. As for the topic at hand:

"Find the troublemaker and lose him."

Would that be you at this point, Mr. einstein? You're the one leading the "threads killed" count by a 2 to 1 'score' over Dirty at the moment. It's simply not intellectually honest to be a pat of the the problem and insist that the other part of the problem be ousted.
Nov. 8, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I just checked back on your posts DG cause maybe I was wrong
but never saw a name.
What's you're name, again
in case I missed it?
Nov. 8, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Memory Refresher for Mr. Einstein:
_____________________________

Sept. 9, 2008
DesertGuy Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerrated

Mr. einstein- Not sure what you mean by "softball identity" but here goes. I am a registered ssusa player. I play for an Arizona based 60's team and live in southern Arizona. I play the infield. I use an Ultra II but seldom hit the ball out of the park unless it's foul. I play because I have for over 30 years and we have a great bunch of guys. I don't play in the major or major plus divisions. I bat right and throw right and most people say I field pretty well. Can't think of anything else that would be part of a softball ID,

Personally, although it's none of your business, I am almost retired. Have spent my entire career in education, am married and have a few kids. Just like 4x4, one of your possee (that's a southwest term I presume you understand) posted in the thread that went away, I am careful about how much information I release to the entire world here. That's why my birth name and my e-mail address remain items I give to people that have earned it. It also prevents receiving unsolicited e-mails on any topic of discussion.
Nov. 8, 2008
bigred3
38 posts
This is what helped kill softball in my area. Petty arguments, whining, fighting. It stopped being fun. I guess this is what you call a second childhood for some of you guys. Because you are acting like a bunch of spoiled little brats.
Nov. 8, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Mr. einstein- Now that we got over the "who are you? issue", let's revisit to the original question you deftly avoided:
________________

"Find the troublemaker and lose him."

Would that be you at this point, Mr. einstein? You're the one leading the "threads killed" count by a 2 to 1 'score' over Dirty at the moment. It's simply not intellectually honest to be a part of the the problem and insist that the other part of the problem be ousted.
________________

To the rest of the message board community: I apologize that this line of questioning was diverted by Mr. einstein originally by him shifting away from answering the question
into some other realm of supposed relevance.
Nov. 9, 2008
terrymac
46 posts
Gentlemen, We are so lucky to have this huge web site to exchange ideas. In one swift move it could be gone. Then what would you whine and cry about? We are at an age that just being able to play is a gift from God. Our whole country is in a state of flux. A lot of players next year will have to decide if they can afford to go on the road. Bickering and in fighting are not options. Senior Softball should be a gentlemans game, good sportsmanship and meeting players, maybe friends for life. We could end up without all this. In our area softball in the younger groups is almost gone. Umpires dont want to listen to all the complaining. Lets not go the way of bowling and fastpitch, lets keep strong and try to get along. It is up to us. Terry, Ohio Silverados
Nov. 9, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Hey, I still live bowling. :)
Nov. 9, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
^^^Should have been "like".^^^
Nov. 9, 2008
db14
91 posts
Hey Dirty....Bowling????????? How could you possibly like bowling? It used to be twenty-five cents a game and NOW it's sooooo costly! AND the balls have changed sooooo much. There are now made of high tech material which makes it easier for Seniors to knock down more pins..... Gee how can you possibly pay for someone elses R&D. I guess however maybe bowling tournaments have more or just as many teams as in the old days. Makes one wonder.
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
db14- That's about the funniest thing I've seen here in ages. Thanks for a good honest laugh, in a friendly manner, for a thread that could use one! Hysterical!
Nov. 9, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
I hope we don't get flushed...on these non softball posts...
But I can't help but wonder if he's using a ball with a Retractable Handle.
True, they have them...R & D on a larger ball. Some balls cost about as much as our bats we choose to use.
Nov. 9, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
DG
You're not fooling anyone.
No name, no game.
The rest of us know
what showing up looks like
and we they can't see or hear you.

The issue is fundamental right and wrong
with who and how to deal with troublemakers.
This was a piece of cake when I was teaching.
You confront/isolate the guy who's hogging up all the attention
and try to get him to adjust his behavior.
Much easier said than done a lot of times.
Then if he doesn't or can't
you remove him so the whole group can regain
functionality and direction
else you will eventually lose the respect and control of the entire group.
It's always the whole or the main of the group that you are most interested in.
Never a couple of few loud ones.
There's always some whining and discomfort
and removing one of the crowd
because group members tend to identify with one another
but this is where those in charge
must be firm and have the courage of their convictions
and execute a precise reaction directly at the trouble maker.
Any school teacher worth his or her weight in salt
would know exactly what I'm talking about.

Remember.
It's the one who truly starts the trouble
is the one who needs to be dealt with.
Anything less will bring unintended and collateral damage
up to and including "losing" control of the group.
And all for what?
One trouble-making attention freak.
Sound like anyone we know?
Nov. 9, 2008
terrymac
46 posts
einstein, It is obvious that you are intelligent. That said you could have a lot to offer softball. You just need to not write such long threads and realize that most players just have little problems and a very short attention span. That and most really dont care what the tournament directors do. If it turns out things are not to our liking everyone will just quit. There is a whole world out there without playing softball. Terry Ohio Silverados
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Mr. einstein- Actually sounds like two people we know, and you're half of them. There are a lot of differences among members here. All bring interesting viewpoints here. All should be respected. None should be ridiculed. Here are a few of the obvious differences I see between you and me.

I'm happy to have this free forum available - You appear to think you own it

I'm comfortable with the ssusa policy decisions - You can't stand them because they aren't yours

I respect other's opinions - You ridicule them if they don't fall into lock-step with yours

I'm not going to cause entire threads to disappear - You're the 'leader in the clubhouse' on that right now

I know I can't hit a ball as far as I used to because of natural aging - You can't because there is a global softball and bat sabotage campaign directed solely at you personally

I'm very real and stand by my posts - You dismiss them because they don't come with a 'posters license' like one needed to drive (even though your buddy 4x4 eloquently expressed the reasons why he doesn't provide the detail you crave - And it doesn't even touch the topic of what you having GS's e-mail address caused to accumulate in his in-box)

This list could go on for days, but won't.

Be respectful and tolerant Mr. einstein. For the benefit of the community.

P.S. - Last evening's 'question' remains unanswered
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertDave
Men's 60
74 posts
db14 That was too funny! Your TIMING was PERFECT too.

Joe R
I enjoy reading many of your posts. Many make us stop and think. However, I think you are letting this vendetta consume you.
Just take a breath and relax. Remember it is just softball, (a game)
Nov. 9, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
DG,
I would have a lot to say to you if you would let us know who you are.
I find this fundamental to any important human dialogue
and though we disagree
I find this website important and should be taken seriously
much more than some old men playing a girl's game.
A girl's game and you talk about respect?
Call me old fashioned but all these anonymous utterances
to most of us are so much sound signifying nothing.
Nov. 9, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
732 posts
Maybe we can create a skills contest between Gary and Joe.

We can have it in Ohio so Gary will not have to travel anywhere and we can take a collection so Joe won't have to pay.

1. Mound presence - ability to throw strikes while dodging pointed barbs or softballs whichever causes the most irritation and entertainment value.

2. Hitting - for distance and effect while typing a rambling or redundant theme or statement.

3. General overall appearance - Einstein may have an unfair advantage. I only wish I had that kind of hair, you can't buy a wig like that. Gary could have an advantage - the great unknown.....maybe he was the man behind the Bourne identity

4. Dugout demeanor - put them both in a dugout together and watch the action.....they could start and each end and charge eachother, seeing who would veer off at the last minute.

We could probably play a softball tournament at the same time and call it the the Message Board massacre or masquerade whichever.

Either way guys.......fun is fun and at this age we deserve the banner of grumpy old men, but it is getting annoying.
Nov. 9, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I still use the ball my grandmother bought me in junior high. Nice try, boys.
Nov. 9, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Mike,
That was brilliant and funny.
The idea of a true contest between Gary and I is
farcical and entertaining but I don't think
you could sell any tickets.
Nov. 9, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
DG, you cannot imagine the filth he filled my inbox with.
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertDave
Men's 60
74 posts
I would buy a ticket :)
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
1. Very fortunate for all of us:

"DG,
I would have a lot to say to you if you would let us know who you are..."

2. db14 and softball4b:

You two have the makings of a terrific comedy team! Hysterically funny on both posts.
Nov. 9, 2008
MaverickAH
59 posts
Pesonally, I think that it's much more important to focus on the validity of a person's message rather than worring about their identity.

I find it disingenuous to try to deflect & deflate a point of view just because you don't have a name, email & number.

So what if we don't know who DG is? I doesn't change one bit whether his words are valid or not.
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Thanks MaverickAH-

A while back, one of his loyalists, 4x4, posted a very eloquent statement why his personal information is guarded carefully on the internet. As far as I know, 4x4 hasn't been subjected to the same level of disrespect I have for taking the same position. Maybe it's because I'm not a major/major+ player. Who knows? He's been down this road with me before, in early September, and again last night when I re-posted my reply from then. No one is buying it this time either. I simply don't recall this forum having a rule that requires me to post my old Vietnam dog tags with name, rank and serial number.

Anyways, I can guess there are only two possibilities for him taking the 'no name/no address/no reply' position (sort of reminds me of no shirt/no shoes/no service deal!) Doing so prevents him from having to publicly admit that he has no rebuttal. Or doing so creates the illusion he has a higher moral ground than the rest of us. But the reality is he has painted himself into a corner and doesn't want to get wet paint on his feet walking out. Either way is a farce.

I let all of my posts stand on their own merit. I won't ever be a 'thread killer', something he can't say. Thank you for focusing on the real issue here.
Nov. 9, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Loyalists.
Wow.
DG has an axe to grind, eh?
Well if you really want to settle things with me
in any meaningful manner you can always do me the courtesy
of speaking with me personally via email and give everyone else a break.
You say you have the best interest of us all at heart
and don't want us bothered by "other" stuff then put up or shut up
and contact me and let's see what we can get done.
It's really a test of authentic concern or not, isn't it.
joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
and I'm Joe Rinaldi.

Maverick,
Many tests have been done to show what it takes to get men and women
to act responsibly and humanly to the conditions of others and these almost always necessitate that the individuals involved "show up" in full view of any others
in the mix.
People who need/want to stay anonymous can do/deliver responses
they wouldn't dream of if/when in the presence of related others
from the most subtle (a website) to the most dramatic(Holocaust).
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
'Thanks' but 'No Thanks' Mr. einstein. Not inerested in having, to use your word, a Holocast in my in-box like someone else here professes to have gotten from you in theirs. This is a nice, open environment. Nothing to hide, contrary to your theory. Type away whichever way you want to go, but don't change course now and actually head back to the issues I've asked you about. Remember, there's wet paint between your corner and the door to enlightenment!
Nov. 9, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
More than interestingly you chose to refer to me
as Einstein and not Joe.
Thanks.
This demonstrates my point, exactly.
Nov. 9, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Actually, it proves nothing. You, Joe, chose the user name einstein. Otherwise you would have chosen 'Joe', unless of course it was already taken. For example, I know who 'trumpball' is, but I don't use his first name. I know who a lot of people here are, but I use the names THEY gave themselves here out of respect. If you think I'm wrong in addressing you as 'einstein' please let me know. I always try to be respectful, hence adding the 'Mr.' before referring to you. In this case, readng between the lines reveals nothing but blank space. Oh, you can call me either DesertGuy or DG. I take no offense at either.
Nov. 9, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Maverick, Joey is simply a one-trick pony.
Nov. 9, 2008
bigred3
38 posts
Does einstein/joe actually play on a team? Does he last more than one tournament with a team? If so, he must play with some tolerant people.
Nov. 9, 2008
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
he plays for some of the best team out there.. mac's, kelly's, az mob.and a few others!
Nov. 9, 2008
4x4
Men's 65
595 posts
In response to bigred3

I know Joe - yes he plays tourney ball - being over 60 he is talented enough to play 50 - 55 - 60 at the Major Plus level. On a team he is a good team'mate. He is as fierce a competitor as you would want to run into. Besides playing senior ball he still plays "flat belly" ball as well.

You would find him cordial to talk to around the ball fields.

In softball he's not a pretender or scofflaw.
Nov. 9, 2008
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
SSUSA STAFF: Please accept my sincere apology for starting this thread. I literally don't know what I was thinking. You guys do a great job! Thanks for this cool website and message board.
Jano
Nov. 9, 2008
WOW
197 posts
You guys have WAY too much time on your hands. It used to be fun reading what was posted here. Now it is almost like a soap opera!! Same old crap-different day.
Nov. 10, 2008
Duke
Men's 60
702 posts
Jano,

You are just a trouble maker! LOL!

Andy :-)
Nov. 10, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Jan,
Thanks for all your concerned and involved posts.
There are a great many of us who will have trouble with this
kill all posts approach as opposed to dealing directly
with the instigator.
(in fact, there's only one)
It's bloody and involves punishing innocent bystanders.
Nov. 10, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Jano- No worries! We've come full circle on the thread it appears. Now we all know why Staff so wisely closed their announcement thread to further posts! We'll see how it works from here, but I'm still in favor of the full thread deletion approach. Creates much needed peer pressure on all of us. Also, it's certainly arguable there's only one problem here. Two would be the bare bones minimum, maybe more.
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