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Discussion: Exemptions:

Posted Discussion
Dec. 12, 2004
Older Than Dirt
Men's 50
28 posts
Exemptions:
Does anyone out there know if the NSA is going to allow any exemptions on the geographic restrictions in 2005? Any help would be appreciated.
Dec. 13, 2004
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
the way I read the rule they will allow one player outside your area. It should be the same as the SPA . I know of a player from GA. going to play with Pine Knob team, a major + in Minn. I don't know if they call this a exemption or a Hardship. But it will benifit teams with the big money that can bring player in and play. Some people say that one player does not make a team but I guess we will see. I feel if you have a good team and bring a real strong position player in give you that little push your team over the top. I would like to hear other people take on this new rule.
Dec. 13, 2004
turn2
484 posts
is pine knob a 50 or 55 team? there is not a lot of major plus teams out there ,so some players do not have a lot of choice of teams to play with. is there a 50 or 55 plus team from ga? why not go with this team if you have a better chance to win? just my opinion.
thanks,
donnie
Dec. 13, 2004
Older Than Dirt
Men's 50
28 posts
Thank you JAH#4. Where do you find these rules? I would like to be as informed as possible about such things. Does the out of area allowance only apply if there isn't a team of the same class registered out of your home area, or is it wide open?

My own opinion is that there is no right or wrong of it, there is only the rule, and we have to live by it. Many have said that the rule was changed in ISSA & ISF this year because of a personal agenda by the head of that organization, but the rule is, nevertheless changed, so we all have to deal with it. My understanding is that the ASA has also eliminated the allowance, at the suggestion of this same individual. I'm just trying to find out what is what. Thanks for your help, and good luck in 05.
Dec. 13, 2004
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
donnie
Pine Knob is a 50 team. a real good team with good people on it there is a couple of 50's teams in the GA. area. I don't blame a player going where all your expense are paid. I just hope it stays a hardship cases.and does not open it up for all the player. It just husts the little teams that the players pay their own way because they love the game and the fellowship they build playing in tourney around the country. There is some great players out there, that would open up some bidding wars for them to come and play for a team i hope it don't hurt senior softball as a hold.
Don
Dec. 13, 2004
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
older than dirt
The rule only applies in the Major plus division. not in the others.
Don
Dec. 13, 2004
Older Than Dirt
Men's 50
28 posts
Don (jah#4) what do you mean by hardship cases? Does this mean that if there is a major plus team in Georgia, then the Georgia player cannot go to play for the Michigan major plus team unless he can show some type of hardship that prevents him from playing on the Georgia team? Maybe I'm thick, but I don't get it. Could you please tell me where I can view the different rules for NSA. Thanks in advance
Dec. 15, 2004
turn2
484 posts
don, is there anymore associations other than spa,nsa,and usssa that have the exemption rule? trying to make plans for next year.
thanks, donnie
Dec. 15, 2004
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
Donnie
Mike MK39 just about said it all. With RB, Ridge , Terry in agreement. that is everyone. The ISA and the USSSA already has the rule. Hopr to see you next year have a good winter and a Merry Christmas.
Don
Dec. 15, 2004
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
MK39
Hey Mike I see the ASA is in NC next year that will the only touney I will get to see you at unless you go and see Ridge in July. Hope you have a Merry Christmas and hope Santa brings you a new Bat and Glove under the tree.
Don
Dec. 15, 2004
Older Than Dirt
Men's 50
28 posts
MK39...thanks for the update on the exemption thing....are players from Cal. anf FL protected from being picked up from neighboring states? It would only make sense that if those states can't pick up players then their players shouldn't be able to be picked up?

Who are these teams with the illegal bats that you keep mentioning. It sounds as if you've got a serious axe to grind.
Dec. 15, 2004
T-REX
64 posts
To Begin...Happy Hoildays to all...I was checking out the new exemptions,it doesn't surprise me in the least,it is always about $ on any level,never for the benefit of the game.I can only speak for Damons Grill of Maryland,we'll play you anytime,anyplace and we're going to play hard and fair,despite the outcome.If you need to cheat to gain an edge,then your a loser,if you need to be paid to play,get a real job.And to the heads of all the organizations,you didn't invent the game,stick by the rules in all situations,it ain't broke so quit trying to fix it,just do what you say in the first place and the game will long out last us all....merry xmas,Thom Lord
p.s. Mike MK39...find me a job and i'll move to cally,its to cold here!!!!
Dec. 16, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
T-REX:
Happy Holidays to you and yours as well.

PS jah#4 was refering to the other T-Rex (Terrel Stokes) out of Ga. as the player going over to Pine Knob.

Pine Knob ae legit players with legit equipment and we was real fortunate to win the SSUSA over them by 1 run in the bottom of the 7th. Terrel makes them a much better squad as he is a great overall player and i look forward to seeing them in 2005 as well as damons.

I have never too much cared who the other team has as long as i have who i want. I also need a world class pitcher and he was on the ropes awaiting the outcome of this new rule allowing 1 player and now at least for us it won't happen.

I am getting to the point where i cant stand the guys who pretend to run our game and claim they run it for us.

You got the aint broke dont fix it thing right on the button here, but how about what is good for the goose is good for the gander. All i want is the same chance that every body elses gets, to exclude anyone from this new rule is unfair. I dont doubt that the Fl. Crush is close to folding up. They had a real good team in Panama City Beach this year with USSSA allowing bordering states and 1 players as well for all states but that was there best team no doubt with Charles Wright, Terrel and 1 other guy from outside of Fl.

It is cold out here to my man, down to 50 degrees at by 6pm hahahaha

Snowbird rule will be used more and more in the future and is the only way for guys who want to play with a Ca. or Fl team to do so by having a home in those states as well as another state but choosing to play in one or the other. Working here for me is not enuff, you actually have to have a resididense and be registered to vote to pick your state.

Very complicated stuff here for something that should be so easy. I told my players to sit back and let me handle everything so they can just concentrate on playing and man this is wearing me out fast.

See ya in Des Moines and do you know if Damons is going to the USSSA in hutchinson Ks yet??

Take Care Thom Lord

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+

Dec. 16, 2004
turn2
484 posts
jah#4 are you sure that isa has the exemption. i was told last week that they did not. can anyone confirm this? thanks,
donnie
Dec. 16, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Mike I have got to tell you bro you have a passion for the game brother.

I tried to tell you long ago things are not right in Denmark when the heads of the associations have their own teams playing. I am one of the few guys who live in an area where there are no Major or Major plus teams anywhere. I have been an exempt player for a long time and I thought this system worked out well but only if you have nothing around you. Now we are going to what at first was a system that I thought would help build the Major Plus level but witht he restrictions to CA and FL it will do more harm than good.

I will play in the SSWS, LVSSA, and something else with my Major Plus 50+ team and then possible play with one of the AAA teams around here in the SSWC at the 55+ level because as I have said there is nothing here in Missouri. Now is that fair to the AAA teams?

Well I have vented long enough and it looks like to me the SSWS, LVSSA, and the USSSA will have plenty of teams this year so I hope everyone has a great Christmas season and Mike keep the faith and keep the passion brother.
Walk
Dec. 16, 2004
Walk
192 posts
PS
Maybe what we should all be talking about is to why this took place? The reason is simple a certain association leader and another part owner decided to change the rules to help their causes in the future because a CA team beat them at the ASA worlds last year using by the rules agreed upon by all one exempt player.

Now one of these guys has 25+ world titles and who knows how many the other guy has and because a new team came in and barely won the games they played against these two teams (by 1 run each game) and knocked them out of the title (they finished second and third) they got mad and installed this new rule to hurt the CA and FL teams.

Now I don't know about anyone else but to me the game is played between the lines not in some room where shattered ego's are allowed to make rules up to curve their rivals. We live with this type of stuff in our senior league (more like a good old boys league) here in KC. I never thought National association leader would restore to this.

I even heard the statement was made that if the CA and FL teams did not like it they could not play. Now that sounds like a fix to me.
Dec. 16, 2004
turn2
484 posts
hey mike,
just talked to r.b. thomas and he said he willlll nottttt have the exemption rule for his 2 tournaments. just thought everyone would want to know.
would still like to find out about the ISA EXEMPTION?
thanks,
donnie
Dec. 16, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Walk;
Sounds like your talking about the Ca. Bandits 60 Major Plus team. First year team like us, they pull off a couple of worlds like us. They Beat RB's and Bill Ruths Team a couple of times and all of a sudden Ca. has too much.
I did not go after an exemption player for SSSUA and barely won it anyway, and the Bandits ended up winning it even without there 1 exemption player.
Damm it is a shame that TD's want to play in there own events and then make rules for others as well to enhance there chances of winning.
This whole thing is a bad joke and i now understand why Dan Smith walked away from all this BS years ago.
Thanks Walk and good luck at the worlds next year, any team you play on is better because of it.
Happy Holidays
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 16, 2004
turn2
484 posts
MK39
i helped coach countrywide 55 major plus last year. we will be back this year but with diff. sponsor.we will be based out of virginia .i'm glad we dont have to play these strong 50 teams. it seem like you guys are loaded. hope to see your team in kansas.thanks for the info.
donnie
Dec. 16, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
turn2:
Donnie, i will without a doubt be in Kansas for the USSSA. Please look me up #39 on the Kelly's Sports team.

I had the priveledge of playing for Winky and Ed Rose in the 1999 USSSA 45 + in Cocoa. You are in great company there.

Hope you get your answers on the ISA .
Have a great year in 2005
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 17, 2004
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2584 posts
I just received this from ISSA.


"There has recently been some misinformation circulating throughout senior
softball regarding the geographic restrictions for players on a team's roster.
The rule in ISSA is the State and bordering states with Florida and California
as stand alone states. The ISSA will not allow the "one player exception" for
Major Plus teams. I have been advised by Ridge Hooks and Terry Hennessy that
SPA and SSWC will allow such an exception in 2005.

This is not a "Summit Rule" as only individual associations can establish their
roster requirements per their code. Last year some organizations tried the
"player exception rule" for the Major Plus division. As Chairman of the Senior
Summit Classification Committee that "approved" the requests I was only aware of
four teams that used the rule and all four were top teams in their age division.
The ISSA has chosen not to use the rule because in our opinion it will only
widen the gap in competition levels among the participating teams. The top
teams will search the country for an impact player and will surely make their
team stronger. In my opinion the rule has nothing to do with "providing a
player a place to play." The result of this rule will mean fewer teams playing
at the Major Plus level and be very unfair to those Major teams that are being
moved up to Major Plus as a result of winning a National tournament in 2004.

Under the current rating system there were an insufficient number of teams
entering most of the National tournaments at the Major and Major Plus divisions
in most age classifications in 2004. In fact, there are not enough teams rated
Major and Major Plus to hold competition in both divisions at this time. The
Summit rating system to be fair must work for all member associations and create
competitive tournaments for the majority of the senior teams while providing a
quality event. If you agree that teams prefer a National tournament with at
least eight (8) teams playing in a division, you will have to agree that we need
a better approach for the benefit of all players, teams and sanctioning
organizations.

This issue will undoubtedly be a topic of discussion at the Senior Summit in January. "


I will have to agree with RB, if only the top Major Plus teams use the exemption rule, it seems that by doing away with the rule that there would be more parity among the teams.
What do you think?
Dec. 17, 2004
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2584 posts
Mike, you are right, I wish Terrell would play with us. I don't think it is fair that fully sponsored teams should play in the same division as a nonsponsored team. What you will end up with is one or two teams dominating the division and no incentive for the other teams.
I agree that players like Walk should be able to play on a Major Plus team out of his region but not players that have a team locally.
As for using state boarders, I don't think that is the answer. I just don't have the answer about how to divide the areas.
Dec. 17, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Here is how I see it and I know I am looking at it through rose colored glasses. The way it is now is not good. The only reason RB says these things is because he does not see them at his tournaments. But all he has to do is look in the mirror to see where the problem lies.

Why not make an exempt player list? Each team is allowed one or two but no more at the Major Plus level. Then take region by region and look at the availability of players to draw from. For instance Hanks 60+ teams is in need of players so why not let him pick up players? If you want this division to exist then something like this has to be done. USSSA does this with their Major Player list and team list. It is not hard to do.

There should be no states barred from this that is not fair. I bet you that the leaders to be have no clue how many Major Plus players there are in CA or FL they are just using the numbers of senior signed up.

The problem is there are players out there but they are restricted and not allowed to play so that just don't play. If the powers to be would just listen and test it for a year they might find out there are more teams or there would be more teams. But then again that would mean the 25 world championship team might not win as much.
Walk
Dec. 17, 2004
Walk
192 posts
PS Also lets not forget one thing here the LVSSA and the SSWS have not changed their rules and those associations should be rewarded for this by us attending their tournaments.
Dec. 17, 2004
T-REX
64 posts
Hey Guys....The tournament that should be the model for all softball is....THE WORLD SERIES,simply because,it works.It is centrally located,the fields were excellent,good bats and balls,great competition.The state touching state rule,and the big 3 not being able to draw from outside the state was put in for a reason,Dan Smith.Perhaps the teams should boycott,all those that choose to allow teams to add a player from another state,also the use of illegal bats and unsafe palying conditions.The amount of money spent on travel etc. by the sponsors damn sure deserves a better fate then they are receiving.I am glad to have a sponsor willing to give myself and my team mates the opportunity to compete on the highest level,and all he asks for is a fair shake,for all.Why should we allow the associations the leeway to dictate to us,what is fair,we are paying them,therefore that makes "the teams" the boss,no teams no money.Perhaps we need a players union,afterall we do we pay membership for,oh and do the math $25 times the amountof seniors playing ball,somebody is getting rich...and it ain't the teams
Dec. 17, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Walk:
Late october is no good for me. Early Ocyober is.
Let me know a concrete date asap as i am making plans right now.

Thanks
Mike
Dec. 17, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
BruceinGa

Thanks for your honesty and now i see your dilema.

The attitude of a Open Player is that he welcomes the competition and enjoys his chance at beating the best there is. Might not always happen that way but you build from it until you het a solid team that can compete.

Dont ever think just because they have a sponser that they have the better team. Softball is a funny game and it is about who is going to have the better weekend that weekend. It could be your team if you give yourself the chance and dont think your beat before it is ever played.
I dont have all the answers but i do know that no one should volenteer for major plus unless they are sure that that is where they really want to be.

I feel your confusion here but we all pull our pants up the same and any of us can be beat by good teams if they play good.
JMO
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 17, 2004
sjuhoops
123 posts
thanks bruce for mentioning our 60 major plus team. we now have a total of 5 guys from vegas and 3 from arizona+ 3 55's from arizona to give us a total of 10. now we have to play 55 with 7 60's. i have been fortunate to major ball my whole life since 1962 in college. now i have to play aaa or major in a younger age bracket because 3 people who represent us in senior ball make the rules with out any of our input. guys this is not cut and dry. smaller states dont have the numbers especially major plus where we want to play. i think mike kelly has covered this area a few times. with this rule we will never be able to play in our own age bracket at the major plus level without at least being able to draw for a state that has major plus players, to the best of my knowledge the states we draw from idaho,oregon and utah arent exactly softball meccas as far as major plus players go.
thanks guys keep up the fight and if i can do anything let us in vegas and arizona know.
Dec. 18, 2004
T-REX
64 posts
okay i have another brain storm of an idea...if there is NO super major team in your state,then you can go to another state to play,however,if there is a team in your state,you either have to olay for them or none,of course you have to make the team and if you don't then your not a major player anyway.There is a problem that does need to be addressed,sandbagging teams,teams have to be moved up,but it won't happen.our team has moved 3 levels in 3 years,voluntarily,how rare is that.The hot stove league is heating up,and soon the rest of my bunch is going to reply,as soon as they learn to turn there computers on....fa la la la la
Dec. 20, 2004
andy25
Men's 50
17 posts
MK39
You had a great team this year, enjoyed playing against your team, enjoyed talking to your players. In reading all the posts recently about borders and exemptions I can understand your frustration. But making accusations about using cheater super freak bats is is unfounded. There are only 2 major plus 50 teams in my area (NJ), NY/CT/MA and Maryland, so our options are limited, besides the fact there probably aren't enough major plus 50 players in those 3 states to form more than one team. I understand your frustation but please take it out on the people who created this situation, not the players who are trying to play softball at it's highest level. Stick to facts, you have a class organization, it's a pleasure competing, have a safe and joyful holiday.
Andy
Dec. 20, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
andy25:

ps happy holidays to you as well.

I dont have a problem with you and if you want to talk, call me on my toll free number tuesday at 888 448 2919 and i will tell you what i know and maybe you can tell me why you think i am wrong but maybe you should hear direct from me first.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 21, 2004
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
Mike
one thing I have to say you really get a rise out of some players out there. But I have to agree that all states should be able to draw players from states next to them. As far as T-Rex he is one of the best position players in senior softball that I have seen play, and I would have played with Pineknob also if they have asked, they are a great team made better picking up T-REX. He had played with them before and seem to good fit with there team. I wish both good luck in 2005. Look forward to seeing you and the T-REX in the coming year both of you are true assests to senior softball. I love to see that battle of Kelly Sports and Pineknob bottom of 7th 2 outs Mike Kelly batting TREX pitching tied up, full count, and see who wins that one.
Don
Dec. 21, 2004
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
MK39, hello & merry christmas.

Changes are difficult when the people you are dealing with are the Owners. They are there to make money.
No doubt though they do like SB.

This is just a thought and not meant to be controversial.
Dec. 21, 2004
Buffalo
8 posts
MK39
In regard to your above statement to Andy25:

There was a time in my life that I was absolutely, positively sure that there was a Santa Claus, an Easter Bunny, and a Tooth Fairy. Whenever someone else would say to me that they did not believe that these things existed, I would say to them,

"Thats up to you but i change my mind for no man when i know i am right."

After all weren't the toys under the tree, the basket full of candy, and the quarter under my pillow undeniable proof that I was right.

And when more people said to me, "You are all wrong. How can you keep saying that without any proof?" I would simply tell them:

"Thats up to you but i change my mind for no man when i know i am right."

My point is this. Just because you believe something to be true with every fiber of your being, in no way makes it fact.

The danger here as I see it is that if someone says something loud enough and long enough, people will automatically start to believe it.

Adolph Hitler would be an extreme example of this premise. I'm sure that he believed in the superiority of the Aryan people. I'm also sure that:

he would change his mind for no man when he KNEW that he was right.

To all those senior players who read this board:

Be careful what you listen to. You wouldn't want it to become your belief based on someone else's opinion no matter how strongly they voice it.

GOD'S BLESSINGS TO ALL AT THIS WONDROUS TIME OF YEAR

and remember always

GOOD WIILL TOWARD ALL MEN
Buffalo33
Dec. 21, 2004
fran44
Men's 55
40 posts
AMEN buffalo33. This message board is not the proper venue for allegations of this nature. There are rules and procedures that provide for the resolution of these type of allegations. So no matter how much you believe in what you say, go and prove it to back up any allegations. After all, in the USA we are all innocent until proven guitly. Don't just be loud and opinated, do it right and protest any equipment through the associations.
Dec. 21, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Buffalo:

I will be the first to admit that i can sometimes be a very stubborn guy but damm that is a Brutal Comparison that you are ng here.

OK let me try it again, in regards to andy25 simply asking me to stop or anything else is not quite enough. I have sent an email to there sponser who i am going to try and get this all sorted out. If he wants to have a civl consersation and listen to what i believe happened and wants to look into it then i would greatly appreciate it. I have already tried there manager who has been very insulting and i will no longer bother with him.

Seems to me that if some one was saying these thing about a few guys on my team then i would grill those guys hard to see if there is any truth to it.

I do know bats, it is what i do for a living and will go through a blindfold test any day to prove it, just using my ears only and i can tell a lot. You hit a freak and an ultra 2 with the same ball and i will every time get it right, no doubt blindfolded.

I believe in the end of your post and will re post it with the same meaning that you did.

GOD'S BLESSINGS TO ALL AT THIS WONDROUS TIME OF YEAR and remember always GOOD WIILL TOWARD ALL MEN

Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 21, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
fran44:

We beat you 24 to 4 and the bat in question was not used it the game agaisnt us, it was used in games against other teams in the event. I will be glad to protest it next year if is used in a game agaisnt my team. I gave fair warning to your team before the game and that is why it was not used. I talked to one of your players today who called me on my toll free number that i posted and he confimed that he was given the warning by one of your players prior to the game and wondered was it was all about. That player is not one of the players that i accused of using a funny bat.

From this point on, i am only going to commuincate with your sponsor or any of your players but never with you again as you have remained hostile through this entire sequence of events and instead of saying these simple words all along = We are innocent, you keep yelling at me to prove it. It would have been proven had you used it against me. I had the TD waiting behind the fence for my call.
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 21, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
jah#4:

I will probably have to settle for being 1 for 1 agaisnt the legendary T-REX. I got that hit while playing with the Ca, Rebels last year in Mn.

I play very little with my team and concentrate more on Managing the team. Found out that it is very hard to do both and to do it right and seeing how i want things to be run my way, instead of a puppet manager, i do the whole thing myself. I have a coach coming in for next year to help some but i will still be more involved with managing then playing.

I Have my special rewards from the last 25 years as a player and they started long before Senior Ball.

Going to have to let one of my hired guns deal with T-REX bottom of the 7th, tied and hope for the best.

Happy Holidays and see ya next year.
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 21, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
crusher:

I think you hit it right on the head with your comment = They are there to make money.

Problem with this new rule is that it is one sided, descriminates unfairly and seems to be intended to give and undue advantage to every one else except ca. and fl.

I talked with the Fl. crush manager yesterday and he is not sure he can even field a major plus team next year. So how is making one more Major plus team dis-appear supposed to help our division????? It only helps certain teams get stronger.

Happy Holidays Crusher to you and yours.

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 21, 2004
Buffalo
8 posts
MK39
I did not mean to compare you to Hitler. I only used that as an extreme case of what can happen when people start to believe something because it is thrown at them over and over with no rebuttal from the other side. You have thrown it out there again as if it was fact in your answer to Fran44. Then you say you will have nothing to do with him because he has taken an adversarial point of view. You have accused his team of cheating. Why would he not be hostile toward you. It is easy to say, long after the fact, that the bat in question was not used against you, and that you would have protested it, had it been used. Again, with nothing but you say so about the validity of your statements. I have no vested interest in either side in this dispute, but I'm beginning to wonder if maybe you aren't ad libbing this as you go along to make your case seem stronger.
One thing is obvious. Your mimicking of my closing of "GOOD WILL TOWARD ALL MEN" would certainly appear to be a case of someone "talking the talk" with no intention of "walking the walk", with those who are in disagreement with him. Take a moment or two to reflect upon the damage that you might be doing with all of this. These men are your brothers in softball let alone that we are all God's children. Buffalo33
Dec. 21, 2004
Buffalo
8 posts
MK39
I did not mean to compare you to Hitler. I only used that as an extreme case of what can happen when people start to believe something because it is thrown at them over and over with no rebuttal from the other side. You have thrown it out there again as if it was fact in your answer to Fran44. Then you say you will have nothing to do with him because he has taken an adversarial point of view. You have accused his team of cheating. Why would he not be hostile toward you. It is easy to say, long after the fact, that the bat in question was not used against you, and that you would have protested it, had it been used. Again, with nothing but you say so about the validity of your statements. I have no vested interest in either side in this dispute, but I'm beginning to wonder if maybe you aren't ad libbing this as you go along to make your case seem stronger.
One thing is obvious. Your mimicking of my closing of "GOOD WILL TOWARD ALL MEN" would certainly appear to be a case of someone "talking the talk" with no intention of "walking the walk", with those who are in disagreement with him. Take a moment or two to reflect upon the damage that you might be doing with all of this. These men are your brothers in softball let alone that we are all God's children. Buffalo33
Dec. 21, 2004
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
BUFFALO: U need to have played SENIOR BALL over the last couple of yrs. IN MY 1st WORLD, the ump did not keep track of home runs & the winning tem when way over the limit & did not tell the Ump the truth. The team that I played on lost & the other team CHEATED, PERIOD. U-trip had a worlds in Salem. A certain team was using PST's. the sound of these bats were not the same as anyone other PST's. Mike K. & several Major Plus players were in the stands, sitting together. That was the yr., that the the Ultras was banned, just before game time. At this time, there were a lot of bat doctors. This past yr., over 60 bats were banned in a U-trip World in Fl. This yr., in Reno, people thought that I was using an illegal bat. Guest, what, I have not played in Reno, in 4 yrs. In Vegas, a 'friend' came to my apt, got my Gray Ultra. I have never seen this bat again. I have gone on line and seen Miken's 4 sale on EBAY, 4 $ 500. I have seen & heard of Tx. ,Cal., & Fl. persons that w/ fix any bat, paint any bat, or install another bats decals 4 $ 200 or so.
One in a 100 swings, I can hit a ball over 400'. When men that r not Home Run hitters, crush a ball over 400', what do u think? When, 8-9 players on a team picks up one bat & use that bat, what do u think?
Mike K., is a good man. Mike, is quite awear of what is going on? These men that have a need to cheat, bend the rules, etc. have caused a great deal of pain, etc. CHEATING IS CHEATING. BUFF, what do u not understand? Many SENIORS do not like to pay $ 600 & miss a days w/o pay to play w/ men that r using illegal bats.
Most SENIORS do not play 3-4 times a wk, & hit balls 3-4 times a wk. Mike, goes & test bats. BUFF, there r several mgrs & players that have told teams not to use a certain bat because that bat was illegal. Tell me something BUFF, w/ the ULTRA 11's legal, why, would a player hit a VIPER 14? or use a VELOCT-11? Metal bats make a certain sound & composite bats make a certain sound. I broke 14 GRAY ULTRAS in 1 yr. . Every time I hit the ball well, it sounded as if, I broke the bat or hit a wet dipper. Why, do teams sandbag, cheat, etc. Yes, BUFF, I do know men that have & use illegal bats in the 50, 55, & 60's. I also, know players that have told other players not to use a certain bats if, that player wants to keep playing. BUFF, GROW UP. SENIOR's do cheat. In the past players have played before they were old enough. Players play outside their regions, lie about the address, etc., etc.
Dec. 21, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Buffalo

The reason that i would rather talk straight to the sponser of the team now instead of the manager is becuase i find the sponser to be more level headed and more like to look into the matter seeing how it is his reputation at stake.

I dont ad lib, i simply told it like it went down and was honest about it.

I am not mocking you or your religious beliefs.

Besides you dont even have a stake in this thing anyway, do you.

Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 21, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
STONEMAN

You said it all there brother. Some of us have been around this way too much. It seems to be the current state of softball. Bat doctors are the fastest growing industry now. They have websites, they sell on ebay, they are all over the US and until manufactures make tamper proof bats, Bat doctors will continue to prosper.

All in favor of Tamper proff bats, say I. I

Thanks STONEMAN for your views, and i see a whole lot of truth in what you said.

Happy Holidays to you and yours and i really mean it.

Thanks
Mike
Dec. 21, 2004
Buffalo
8 posts
MK39
I took no offense. I only was hoping that you might see that this is not a matter that should be sent out over the net. Especially getting specific with the allegations. I hope that you can resolve your issues without anyone suffering needlessly.
God bless
Buffalo33
Dec. 21, 2004
Buffalo
8 posts
STONEMAN:
In your post to me you said "CHEATING IS CHEATING. BUFF, what do u not understand"

Did my posts lead you to believe that I am so naieve as to think that no one cheats. Not so, I faced a team full of shaved PST's at the u-trip B worlds in 2002 when we faced a Worth sponsored team. We got the first guy out in the top of the first, and 19 runs later we got the 2nd out. The tinnnng is still ringing in my ears.

It is admirable that you stick up for your friend, and he is lucky to have friends like you.

My aim has never been to demean MK or anyone else, but only to warn others to cast a wary eye on looking at what is said by someone on this board, regardless of his credentials, as being gospel, when it is only that person's opinion.

As regards your advice to me of:
"BUFF, GROW UP", I thank you. I try to grow as a person, at least a little, every day. I'm not sure that I'll ever make it to "UP", but progress is the goal, and trying to stay on the right path is often difficult.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Buffalo33
Dec. 21, 2004
T-REX
64 posts
OK ..Alright already,this forum is about exemptions not cheating.I know for a fact that it is possible that we may be losing one of our players to our nemsis here in the north east,it was a rumor started in Vegas in Sept.H
Dec. 21, 2004
T-REX
64 posts
OK ..Alright already,this forum is about exemptions not cheating.I know for a fact that it is possible that we may be losing one of our players to our nemsis here in the north east,it was a rumor started in Vegas in Sept.H
Dec. 21, 2004
T-REX
64 posts
OK ..Alright already,this forum is about exemptions not illegal bats,that is a whole different can of worms,and as I quoted earlier on this message board,'YOUR A LOSER IF YOU HAVE TO CHEAT".I have come to the conclusion that some players want to get paid to play,and some sponsors on all levels are willing to do that to win,(see the above mentioned quote for it still applies) why would guidelines be set up on location if they are to be amended to suit a few?Money,plain and simple.So why have any rules at all,lets just let anything go,and I'll bring back my titanium,we can play on inadequate fields with bad lighting,umpires that don't know the rules,and schedules that are constantly changing .I have been considering just hoping on the harley and going fishing,but this year makes 50 consecutive years of playing baseball or softball for me,what would I do with my glove if i left the game now......peace my brothers,have a safe and prosperous new year
Dec. 22, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Buffalo:

Just curios. Is this the game your refering to from the 2002 USSSSA B Worlds

t&r stucco/millpress/worth 41 Thermco/Alfies/Easton 11

I also noticed that you beat my local buddies calssic glass in a 1 run game.

More amazing was that 2 mizuno teams finished 1 and 2.

Thanks
Mike Kelly Kellys Sports 50+
Dec. 22, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
T-REX:

I hear you and i am ready to stop as soon as i am allowed to but as long as the questions get asked or comments continue to be made, then i feel obligated to respond.

Except for travel, hotel and cars and an occasional team dinner, i pay no one to play amateur softball. That is getting ridiculous amd shows that for some they will do anything to win. By the way it is illegal to pay someone to play softball as it is under the table cash flow and untraceable through the irs. This new rule will show if certain players have any loyaltys left to there current teams or is it all about the bucks.

Please let me know how that turns out with your player as time goes on and decisions are made.

Thanks and happy holidays to all.

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 22, 2004
Buffalo
8 posts
MK39
It was TR stucco, but they ended up beating us 34 to 19. I played for Aquart that year.

I didn't realize that I was prolonging this whole thing with my comments.

I will have no more to say.
Buffalo33
Dec. 22, 2004
Buffalo
8 posts
Now "I've" gone and done the same thing. I humbly apologize to all the players on Stucco for naming them on this board. I have no proof that their bats were shaved. My only excuse is that I just awoke and didn't have my full faculties working yet. Please accept my apology. That's what I meant about it being difficult to stay on the path, but I'll keep striving.
Buffalo33
Dec. 22, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Well I thought I posted a long reply but I guess it did not take. This one will be much shorter.

Buffalo you did not prolong anything and if you knew Mike like I know Mike he is not upset with you (well maybe the Hilter thing:)) Mike has a great passion for this game and only asks for a fair playing field. He wants the best for senior softball and a better friend could not be found. But today what Mike asks for no longer exists. When TD's can change to rules to hurt some teams but help their own then the fair playing field vanished.

Now as far as the bat thing goes all I can say is welcome to my world. I have been assused of using illegal bats all my life (never by anyone on this board but by many others) Mike and I talked about this and while he and I disagrees with me about shaving bats and endloading bats we do agree on painted bats.

I look at it this way if someone wants to spend $300 for a bat then another $200 to have it shaved and then watch it break in 200 swings for a 3 to 5% gain in distance the so be it. But if someone has to paint a bat that is a different story. That is wrong and I just hope those who do that never hit a ball that hits someone and hurts them. That would be a fate worst than death in my opinion.

I hope everyone has a great Holiday season. I hope to see a few of you next year and I hope that between now and Jan 7th the powers to be rethink this stupid ruling. But alas I hold no faith in that and I can see a bunch of Major plus Players playing AAA next year which in the end will be a far worst thing than allowing everyone the right to a fair playing field.


Walk
PS MK I hope you and yours have a great Christmas bro.
Dec. 22, 2004
BillyMac
Men's 55
91 posts
Mike..Don't bother contacting me...I stand behind my manager Stu Bookstein one hundred ten percent...I have copies of all the communications between you and Stu...and it was you, not him who was rude..He is a person of unquestionable integrity, and you should be ashamed of yourself for some of your comments to him... I have spoken with my players, and we are innocent of any wrongdoing...I believe them, not you...your smear tactics are pathetic as far as I'm concerned, and I could give a rat's ass what you think... From everything that I read and hear, anyone who doesn't kow tow to the great Mike Kelly is either a self serving stooge or a cheater. I'm proud to say that we will be a fully sponsored EASTON team this coming year, so we will be swinging Synergys. let's see what you can do with that after we pound you like we did in the if game in Florida. Oh yea Florida, where you told Red that you wouldn't pitch to Clatter again after you heard the sound of his bat. Now it's Red, Joe, and Chip who are the cheaters. Who's next. In Des Moines you were mouthing off about Damon's bats(behind their backs of course).
TALK TO THE HAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bill McCluskey
Sponsor
Thermco/CT Sportsplex

Dec. 22, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
BillyMac:

So much for trying to talk to the level headed one. Seems you have grown a new head since your last email to me but that is ok.

As far as what you will do to us on a ball field next year, you got the easy part done already which is talking about it. Next comes the harder part which will be getting it done.

Clatter was never walked by me this year and was 19 for 20 agaisnt us, if i chose to walk him i doubt anyone even him would think less of me for it. You should never put any of your players in the same class with that man as it is an unfair comparison to your players. He is now and always has been one of the best hitters in the nation with any bat unlike some i know. I am not sure where you got your info on that subject but it is incorrect and you are now using a smear tatic yourself which does not suprise me.

Bottom line is that no further communications will come from me to you or any one on your team and i would appreciate that same from you and yours.

Funny thing is that i am kinda relieved now knowing how you really feel and i can move right on by all this now.

In regards to your fully easton sponsership, good for you, i will be fully sponsered by Miken and arent we lucky. I will have my kellys sports logo on all my bats just like this year and wil pick the miken bats out of a regular shipment so they wont be anything special and i will again take 100% full responsibility for them and they will never leave my possesion during the season.

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 22, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Buffalo:

That was kind of how it went with me too. i mentioned funny bats and was asked who used them and said who it was and the rest is history.

Sorry if i anything to do with your statement but one thing is for sure here. You are not as sure about what you said even though by re reading it, i could feel your pain like it was something that really happened and something that you believed really happened.

Walk is right and i aint mad at you, hell you sounded like a victim and a person i could relate to with a similar experience.

Anyway no hard feelings and the best of luck to you in 2005.

Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
Dec. 22, 2004
Wes
Men's 65
306 posts
I have played SS for the last 2 yr. to get in shape. Im ready to move up and was trying to find out how to do so. I read this complete log. It sounds like you guys have a real big problem. It seams to me if you know a person is using a bad batt you play him different. If he hit's over the fence is there not a home rum rull. My goal is to batt 1,000, not hit home rums. I use wood batts, I make my own, to spec. Real player play with wood batts.
Here's my ?? I work out of town,
M-F I'm in one state, S-S I'm at home in another state. Where can I play Maj. SS???
gwes
Dec. 22, 2004
BillyMac
Men's 55
91 posts
Except for travel, hotels, cars and an occasional team dinner, Sal Candelora from the CT Sportsplex and I pay no one to play amateur softball.

That is one of the reasons that I got out of regular men's softball, where players, even at the "B" level were looking to get paid to play, with some sponsors being perectly willing to do so. It had become ridiculous.

If having your weekend expenses (other than your food and off field activities) taken care of by your sonsors isn't enough for you, then you need to find another sport to play.

There is no room in senior softball for pay to play.

So far I have found every single one of our players to be very appreciative of the opportunity that they have been provided by Sal & me. No one has ever even asked for food money, let alone some amount of cash.

Billy Mac
Thermco / CT Sportsplex / Easton
Dec. 23, 2004
Steve
Men's 55
24 posts
Good for you Bill. The best to you over the holidays
Dec. 23, 2004
BillyMac
Men's 55
91 posts
Thanks Steve,,,The same to you and Judy...Merry Christmas, and a safe New Year...The USSSA rings have been ordered, and they are mint...When they arrive, we'll have a party to celebratea tremendous season. You guys really came through...way beyond my expectations...I also found some really nice jackets for you guys...I should have them by the party as well. I'm having the SPA rings shipped directly to you guys, and I will let you know when to start looking for them. Molly & I look forward to seeing both of you soon.
peace
Dec. 25, 2004
Older Than Dirt
Men's 50
28 posts
Billy Mac, Andy25, Fran44, Steve, and the rest of the Thermco team:

I just returned from a business junket to find the string of messages about the bats.

I am so sorry that I asked MK39 to name the teams that he was talking about. From his previous posts in this string and others, I was sure that it was a number of different teams that he was referring to.

having had the misfortune of having to play you guys a number of times this year, there was no way that I would have thought he would name you.

You guys have a great team, with strong hitters right through the lineup. You beat us over and over by base hitting us to death, and the long ball really wasn't a big part of your game.

Please accept my heartfelt apology for asking the question that started this mess. My Bad!!

I can't say that I look forward to playing you again in the upcoming season, unless of course a bunch of your players have retired or moved up to the 55's.

Happy Holidays to you and all the other senior softballers. The season will be here before you know it, and we can all return to the diamonds that are a man's best friend, See ya then.
Dec. 25, 2004
Older Than Dirt
Men's 50
28 posts
JAH#4:
Don, I am still unable to find the location of the NSA rules for the seniors. Is there somewhere on line that I might be able to access them? Thanks in advance.
Dec. 25, 2004
crusher
Men's 70
380 posts
Hello O.T.D.
Not sure if this what you need but here is the address
http://www.playnsa.com/
see page 58-62 in Rulebook.
Hope this helps.
Looking fwd to next season.
Good tidings.
Dec. 25, 2004
Older Than Dirt
Men's 50
28 posts
Thanks Crusher,
I have visited the site and viewed the rule as stated in the 2004 rule book. I also viewed the section titled , 2005 rule changes.

I do not see anything that talks about an exception to the touching states rule for any division, including Major Plus.

In the second message in this string, JAH#4 says that he believes that there is such an exception, and in the 6th message he says that it applies only to the major plus division.

I'm wondering where he got this info so that I might verify it.

Thanks again for the help, & Happy Holidays!
Jan. 17, 2005
william wallace
42 posts
Give me a call I will answer any questions I can 1-203-596-29Thanks Dan

Mike wrote:

I am willing to pay up to 4 miken bats , new in the wrapper with warranty
with a value of well over $1,000.00 for proof that you sent to any one of
the Thermco guys out of Ct. any altered bats at all. I do know they had the
worlds hottest freak in 2 worlds that we played them and i suspect it was a
decaled ultra, we also suspect that they had altered synergy plus bats and
pst bats in another.

I dont plan to go public with this info , i only plan to show the sponsors
of that team what there players did this past year in the hopes that they
would then do some in house cleaning so that we can get a fair game out of
them this coming year. kinda rough to travel 3000 miles and take 2nd place
and feel that they used altered bats to beat you.

I will keep you out of this and only the sponsor would need to see the
eveidence that only you can supply me with. i will make that sponsor
understand that he is not to tell the player or players where he got the
info, just that he got it and believes it.

This is a huge personal issue with me and i have no problem with you at
all. Grown men make there own decisisions right or wrong and these guys
should have used the bats in bp and home run contest but not in actual world
competition.

Please advise as to if you are able to help me out on this.

Thanks Mike Kelly
Iheard this wasbrought up at the summit so here is what came down.
William
Jan. 17, 2005
BillyMac
Men's 55
91 posts
What you didn't have was the bat doctor's response to Mike Kelly's request.

It read as follows:
To whom it may concern I just called Mike Kelley from kelly sports to tell him that I did not want any part of his bribes to lie and tell the Thermco sponsors that I altered their players softball bats. I Daniel ****** at no time altered any softball equipment for any member of the Thermco team, further I was told from Mike Kelley that I had very generous offers and that I should have taken them but since I did not I will have to go down with the Thermco team. Mike Kelley also made it a point that he has many connections and was going to drag the thermco team through the mud. I asked Mike Kelley to stop trying to contact me by telephone and email because I did not want any part of this.
Thank You
Dan ******

William...How about coming out from behind your board name, and letting us know who you really are and what team you play for, sincve you want to be a bomb tosser.
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