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Discussion: Balls in general

Posted Discussion
Oct. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Balls in general
Don Clatterbaugh, one of the finest,
best hitters softball has ever seen
about to be inducted in San Diego
to the another softball hall of fame,
as well as some other monsters
featured on Bogie's new video
said that their approach is to hit
the ball dead center,
cutting it in half,
and that maximizes the speed on the ball
and gives it the best chance of not being caught, somewhere.
The new ball that we keep hearing about
that 275 x 52 sock that will be accepted in more and more associations
next year.
You know, the one that was never meant for seniors but was contracted to be tested a number of times by Terry
in SSUSA, and does not do well when center-struck.
We've been taught since little league
to hit the center of the ball.
It's intuitive and as Don pointed out
maximizes the speed-options of the ball
giving us the most/best chances
for getting on base.
That's all we really have to know,
isn't it?
Will a ball that is counter-intuitive,
goes against traditional teaching
and thousands of strokes of muscle memory, and just won't go as Bogie
said if you squash it dead center,
ever be or should ever be acceptable
to seniors???
Hell no.
I don't see how/why the younger groups
would put up with it, either.
It's a good idea tinkering with the ball
to get a better result but the ball
got's to be a good one
and not one with so many down sides.


Oct. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
don't know why i posted,wasn't finished,but here it is.

JOE,i do wish you would understand,ANY ball that is hit dead center will knuckle,thats just physics.you need to hit just below center to get any spin(especially the backspin needed for carry) regardless of what ball you hit.you can hit the old red dots(50 cor 600 comp) dead center and it will knuckle and not make it out at 300',unless your a gorilla.so please learn how to hit before you comment on what we need to do to hit or what ball we need.why do you think MLB'ers hit with a slightly downward swing,so the ball will get back spin and carry.
Oct. 26, 2009
turn2
484 posts
Joe,
You are right about Clatta. He had anothe great year for Turn Two. He will be the first one to tell our players if the ball is bad and not carrying to be sure to hit it down and go for the hit. Most big home run guys might not do that. He plays for the on base average and it it usually very high.
Sounds like you had fun in the 50's. See you next year.
Later
Donnie
Oct. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Dog
since this ball is usually not coming
in on the same plane as the swing
whether its hardball or especially
6-12 softball,
hitting the ball "fat" or square
will seldom result in a pure knuckleball.
It's the soft bats that catch the ball
like tennis racket that stops the spin of the ball and spits back out balls
with no spin, imho.
Oct. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
gump, why don't you let Don speak for himself regarding the ball instead of you just trying to drop his name to help your obsessed cause?
Oct. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
hhmmmm,maybe the plane of the ball is different from softball to baseball,but the swings are the same.do you drop your back shoulder to hit slowpitch(if you do i wanna pitch to you),no,you drive your front shoulder into the ball just like BB.that requires you waiting for the ball to drop down into your zone and swinging at it with a slightly downward swing to get your backspin to have the ball travel futher.
there is no way hitting the center of a ball with a straight thru swing gets anything but a knuckle ball off the bat.i do it all the time in bp.where i work on my swing.
Oct. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Just a word for any newcomers.
The most of us won't respond to malignant
naysayers like Dirty and whom Maddog seems to be becoming on this site.
They are welcome to contact me anytime
to discuss or start any argument
they might chose and they know it
but to waste time and energy
with them on this site is at best
a waste of a good man's time.
Oct. 26, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4316 posts
Dirty,
Consideration for a "new" ball might be in order. Up for thought & free trials, but you just have to go purchase.
Temperature has no effect on them, hot or cold weather. None.
Solid as you can find for any ball.
Known as the Croquet ball, some honing down on size is in order.
Nasty on bats. Don't count the swings, because it won't be many & use at your own risk for bat damage.
I doubt any GOOD ball will be GOOD (enough), in any temp or adverse condition. Just like bats, you give up durability for performance or visa versa, throw in cost factor and you have a 3rd factor. There is always something......


Oct. 26, 2009
titanhd
Men's 50
324 posts
hey mad dog.did you take the"soft bats"
that catch the ball like tennis rackets into consideration. lol!!!
Oct. 26, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
gump, would you like me to contact you by email so you can reply with some more of your filthy, vile, vulgar "words of wisdom"?

I recommend gump use Titleists if he has this juvenile need for maximum distance. As long as both sides use the same ball, I am happy.
Oct. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
titan,na i use the hardest string racket i can along with frozen tennis balls.LOL
so joe i'm now a naysayer,hey its not me crying about not being able to hit a ball 440' or farther.its not me saying some people are only trying to get more money out of us.its not me saying the senior org's are trying to dummy down the balls and/or bats.its not me saying your opinion don't count unless you put forth all your personal info for anone and all to maybe use against you.
so what am i naysaying all about.
also would you please learn to type more than 4 words a line.
Oct. 26, 2009
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
mad dog i drop my back shoulder.whats wrong with that.its called top spin.
Oct. 26, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
rik,if that is what you want to do,thats ok.but most of the hero's here want to hit the 400' hr and not be a base hitter.your way is suggested by ray demarini for all base hitters to keep the ball from going out to the OF for a fly out,the 180' hump back he calls them.you keep it up and most likely will have a way better avg than most that are looking to hit the ball out all the time.
Oct. 26, 2009
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
You are right Dirty , Gump will not let this die, He is so afraid that the balls might not be as hot next year and he will not be able to walk around with that chest stuck out. He says it is about having fun. Well you would think he could have fun think him hitting it 305 would be fun, not the GREAT Joe he has to hear the ball crack so he get his jollies on making people think he is the GREAT one. He actual makes a lot of people on my tea want to puke. I wish he woul take up golf and get off this board. Joe you are start to be an complete ass about this subject. So please shut up you little moaner
Oct. 26, 2009
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
Don't like the balls, play another sport.
Oct. 27, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Goodness...seems like more and more on this board are catching on to "the act"
Oct. 27, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
(think Cosell's voice)

Down goes Rinaldi! Down goes Rinaldi! Down goes Rinaldi!
Oct. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Th peanut gallery is at it again.
You guys are so cute
in your little disguises
trying to act/talk like
us big guys do.
Keep it up.
You always bring a smile to my face.

The best tournament this year
by far given the rank and file
of senior softball was LVSSA in Vegas.
The most players had the best time
hitting and driving good balls and
did any pitchers get crippled
by batted balls?
Terry, are you listening?
None.
You don't need to have a meeting
to figure out what most of us
want, expect and need from senior ball.
We're right here.
Ask us, poll us and we'll tell you.
You guys are on trial, Terry
when all is said and done.
I've talked with a lot of people
who are you giving you guys
one more try to get it right.
Poor Bill's face getting crushed
was an omen, Terry.
A sign that you guys are/were
off course with home runs as outs
and a useless PPR.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
Good bats and good balls
or the only tournaments we go to
next are are in Vegas and NorCal.
Oct. 27, 2009
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Spoken like a true upper division player
You are not speaking for the majority of players. Only the majority of upper class players.
The AA and AAA and some major players had rather have it were it is safer and not ever TOM, DICK and Gump can hit a homerun.

Why is it there is 10 times as many AA and AAA teams then there are Major and Major plus. Because not everbody lives to hit the homerun. They like to play softball the way it was intended to be played the smaller and average guys setting the table for the big boy to clean up the bases. Let the Majors hit homeruns for singles and watch the number of teams decrease. Joe you either adapt or go play golf. I am sure the masses want a good ball but not what you think is good you want the hottest ball so you can feel good about yourself. I am sure many people would rather see you less on the mesaage board and seeing you working out more so you can hit the so called dead ball better
AGAIN P U K E
Oct. 27, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
this pulled from your own post joe,"Poor Bill's face getting crushed
was an omen, Terry."
yep maybe it is,if the TD were using the safer ball,his face doesn't get the damage that he sustain from the hot ball.mmmm am i wrong please tell me so.you say lvssa there pitchers crippled,don't care all's it takes is one bad hop,or ball not seen,b/c of lighting,background,etc and we have a tragedy,do you wanna be the one,or have it be one of your friends,not me.i would rather play a more sane game,than"who can hit the most hr's,or fartherest one" type game.if your getting to old than maybe it is time for you to hang up the bat and glove and retire.i still personally like playing ASA ball even with thier "DUMMIED" down equipment,lots of D there and games decided by the best "team play" not who can hit the ball the fartherest.get over it and quit being a baby about your diminishing skills,learn to hit for singles and do a little running.
Oct. 27, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
gump, you are a "big guy" yet you had to have others tell you how good Macenko was?????

Yea, you were really clued in in the 70s and 80s. LOLOLOLOL

Garocket, great point. gump, how often do you lift?
Oct. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Dirty Gary Sommers is on your side?
That's all you need to know.
Let's get back to the basics.
Lively good balls and good bats
are a REQUIREMENT
to enjoying senior ball.
It's that simple and most of the players,
that is, the guys who really come
and play in National Tournaments and not just mouth off about them
agree with me.
It doesn't matter how loud or obnoxious
the small group of nay sayers
and malcontents get
it doesn't change a thing.
Good balls and good bats
and we don't need a summit
or convention or any arbitrary
committee to tell us what we want
and who we are.
We're being squeezed by profit guys
who are not primarily interested
in us or our sport
and if we don't stand against them
and for us
we'll wind up somewhere else.
Help is coming right around corner.
You'll see.
Oct. 27, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
a requirement,joe where in your mind,or anyone else's is there a requirement for the hottest equipment out there for anyone to enjoy playing softball.did you spend to much time in the haight-ashbury district as a youngen.
you never answer my question about bill,or who is doing all the skawking on this board.do you have your"we can only have fun with equipment that can kill people"on a copy and paste routine.yes there can be injuries in softball and i'm all well and fine with that,but lets not let it be life and death type ones out there.i'm thinking you would rather see someone get killed by a hot bat and ball combo than see all players survie as long as you can hit a ball 450'.to me your not worthy of playing a team sport of any kind.get over it and learn to play team ball,thats running,playing D,hitting behind the runner or open spaces on the field,and such.
you should open up your own league or assoc, and call it joe's hr league,points for the most and fartherest hr's hit.see how many will sign up for that.
your tirades about balls and bats get real tiresome and believe me when i say,that you don't have the majority on your side.
Oct. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Good balls and good bats, Dog.
The only way to go
and what the majority of seniors
want.
Why does almost every senior player
have/use an Ultra 2 or equivalent?
Why don't they use ASA bats
or USSSA bats if they don't care about
hitting balls hard, fast and well.
C'mon man.
Dirty Gary Sommers agrees with you
and Kevin.
That's the kiss of death, man.
Oct. 27, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
gump, please tell us what subject you taught, where, to what grades, for how long, and who in the world employed you?

The majority of senior players want to know.
Oct. 27, 2009
dj
32 posts
joe is the only one who stands up for the senoirs on this issue, if the ball makers and the td's have there way "no one" will be able to hit the ball over the fence, joe is only fighting for all of us
dj
Oct. 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe is the only one that stands up for some seniors. I know a lot of the same players as Joe and not all of them agree with him on the ball issue. They are not promoting the 50/275 ball but the stote ball. I have had a couple of the BEST pitchers in senior ball tell me if they had to play with the ball used in Vegas in all the tourneys they would retire. No one got crippled in Vegas but a few left with broken fingers and more than one knot and bruises on their bodies from being hit.

I have no agenda as we have played with all balls and bats this year but I would have to agree if I had to play with the x-rock all year I would have to consider other alternatives.

Butch
Oct. 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Being as Bill getting hit came up on the discussion, in Vegas with unlimited home runs and or over the limit singles why was the pitchers getting hit if that is the arguement to making them dead ball outs then pitchers will get hit. I seen pitchers hit and balls hit continually up the middle so that arguement to me is BS.
Oct. 27, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
I can hit the ball as far as most anyone, but have never seen the point to anything longer then 300'. I suppose going 400+ is like owning a Porche to a man with a little Penis, it looks good but is still only going to get you so far.
Oct. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
E4/E6.
The good ball isn't for the long ball hitters.
It's for the rest of the guys
who hit better with more pace on the ball
going through a hole or through a gap.
It's the "most" of players who benefit
from and enjoy the lively ball and not just the elite guys
who can hit a sock 300 feet.
That's what's behind the truth of the statement that MOST senior players
want to hit a lively ball.
Why does almost every senior player
own an Ultra 2???
The answer is obvious.
Oct. 27, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
The answer to the question why does almost every senior player own an Ultra 2 is that if you are competive you have to swing what everybody else is swinging. Our friend Mike Kelly said that to us a few years ago in Des Moines when we were having to swing TPS because they were our bat sponsor.
Swing what everybody else is swinging and you will be even more successful and he was right.
Oct. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're moving around the point,
Butch that the Ultra 2 hits most balls
better, harder, faster
than any other bat.
C'mon man.
And who doesn't like hitting balls
faster, harder, farther and better.
C'mon man.
Oct. 27, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Joe,

You have complimented me on a number of my posts in the past. I have found nothing worth writing about lately. I don't care to debate you on the ball issue but I need to at least state my opinion on this matter and then let everyone else comment and have their say, including you.

I am not a home run hitter. My teammates on Travelodge will confirm this is the case trust me. I try to hit line drives. I had not hit a home run in four years until Vegas. In Vegas I hit two. My first at bat cleared the 30' fence. I am certainly not bragging here because it is nothing to brag about. That ball--the "Rock" is too good to use with senior bats. Let's bring defense back into the game.

Now let's be practical here. Players bring their own bats to tournaments. If anything less than senior bats were allowed doctoring would become a major issue. As Butch pointed out earlier it makes no sense to put yourself at a disadvantage by using anything less that a U2 or Machenko Combat if they are allowed. However the ball can be controlled. It is supplied at our tournaments. The ball we used in Phoenix is still a good ball. Now, I understand in the heat, the ball does not perform as well but it is still a level playing field in that both teams have to hit the same ball. The heat is no more a factor than some sun in a hitter's eyes. We don't like it but it is the same for both teams. Consider it an act of God, if you will, that some balls will get softer in the heat.

Joe, unless you truly believe you speak for most players, lets move on from the ball issue. No offense intended. Is that a pun?

Bob Schulz
Oct. 27, 2009
JohnBob
Men's 60
246 posts
Hitting is only half the game,you still have 5 infielders trying to make plays and with the senior bats and a real lively ball its getting more dangerous every year as we age. Dalton,Ga was real bad because the infields are not cut very deep. The ball that was used in Phoenix the 1st weekend was great,the true homerun hitter's still hit HR's but balls hit on handle or end of bat were caught as they should be and the Pitcher and corner infielders had a good chance to make a play and feel like part of the defense. My 2 cents
Congrats Butch on you big win,we are getting closer.
Oct. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bob,
Great comments.
2 things.
First, I think I do speak
for most players.
Most players want to hit a good ball
with a good bat.
Doesn't have to be rocket balls
but have to good balls.
Second, the phenomenon driving the balls down has nothing to do with us the players
or the safety of the game.
It's coming from powerful financial
interests to engineer tournaments
for maximum participation/profit.
These are 2 very good reasons
to keep the argument and our needs
and wants up front
else we'll end up with shitty balls,
7 to 5 games, and generally less
fun than we want and deserve.
Oct. 27, 2009
JamesLG
297 posts

Guys:

The only way to know what the majority truly wants is to have every coach submit what they perfer. I believe most AAA teams with some power will vote for HR's as singles. This topic has been run through the mill far to many times and we will always have two sides. We have a choice to pay or not play. I was in Phoenix playing AAA last week and the balls were great. With the wind blowing out it went out quite easy, wind blowing in was a little different story. I will say something else that was a big factor is the umps let the pitchers get away with some very high arch. Keeping the ball in the park is not that hard but is that what most of us played this game 30+ years to be forced to do? How many of you had to watch a teammate come back to the dugout for accidentally hitting the ball square that went for a DBO?
Seniors should not feel like they failed for hitting a ball square period.

Thanks:

James
Oct. 27, 2009
bohack
13 posts
Why is it ,that every time they make ball changes or bat changes.Someone disides to make another change with no though what the rest of the seniors felt about it.But there is a way to combat this crap just don't go it works every time.this year Virgina used a good ball and the ultra bat or equal it was fun again. thank you R.B .
Oct. 28, 2009
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
JamesLG has a good point—let the managers/coaches vote. I believe that few would vote for a HR being a dead ball out. Especially heartbreaking when a teammate hits about one a year. Second, it is obvious that the PPR has done little to protect pitchers. A better solution would be a screen or...the ultimate decision is on the ball.

Since we probably won't be able to ban the Miken or its hot peers, then we have to dumb down the ball. I am playing on a major team this year, but usually have been on AAA teams. I know that my former managers and coaches would vote in a second to reduce the risk of serious injury by using a safer ball. And surprisingly, so would my coach on my major team this year.

Ban the hot bats or dumb down the ball. Bring back value to the skills of fielding, strategy, controlled hitting, smart base-running and all the other aspects of softball that are being lost with a trend toward home run derbies.
Oct. 28, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
The sad part is the clown with the wild, white hair really does think he speaks for everyone.

I have asked him before, but to no avail, how much does he work out to improve his bat and subsequent ball speed. And how much does he just really on some actual ability and a lot of R&D by others?

What ever happened to pride in actual self-accomplishment?
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You miss the point completely,
OK.
Why do seniors buy Ultra 2's?
Why won't they give them up?
Because they hit the ball better,
faster harder.
There is no doubt in my mind
and I've never talked to one player
who didn't want to use a good bat/ball.
Not one if he's telling the truth.
Why did major league ball players
go to maple bats
even though they are dangerous to players and fans???
Wake up and smell the coffee guys.
If you want to control the speed of the ball off the bat so much
try golf.
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Did pro hockey go with a softer puck
to keep the goalies from getting their faces destroyed?
Does professional football put foam rubber
on shoulder pads and helmets
to keep guys from getting severely injured
as they do?
If race car drivers had governors on their engines at 100 mph we'd really see
who the best drivers are
wouldn't we and guys wouldn't be in danger
like what happened to #3?
A big part of playing softball is the feeling of being men, real men.
Even Nancy, (hi Nancy)
says it's gotta be dangerous
or it just ain't softball.
Good balls and good bats,
lively ones, I mean,
are a must, a given to the great majority of players
and anything less is someone
trying to sell us something.
Oct. 28, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Now what is your workout routine?
Oct. 28, 2009
tattooball
604 posts
Why must you always speak about something you know nothing about.

Sorry I think they forgot to call you to let you know.

Maple bats were changed this year in MLB. The handle profile was changed to decrease the breakage. Now there is a rule and all maple bats must conform to the new MLB spec's for saftey.......

1. All bats must meet specific slope-of-grain wood-grading requirements that apply to the two-thirds length of the bat that constitutes the handle and tapered regions.

2. All manufacturers must place an ink dot on the face of the handle of sugar maple and yellow birch bats to allow easy viewing of the slope of grain of the wood. Sherwood says the flow of the ink allows a quick inspection of the capillary formation of the wood grain.

3. The orientation of the hitting surface on sugar maple and maple bats must be rotated 90 degrees (one-quarter turn of the bat). The edge grain in maple that is currently used as the hitting surface is the weaker of the two. The manufacturers must rotate the logos they place on these bats by 90 degrees.

4. Handles of sugar maple and yellow birch bats must be natural or have a clear finish to allow for grain inspection.

5. Manufacturers must apply serial numbers to each bat or use some other method of tracking each bat they supply. This is a well-known quality-tracking measure in the industry.

6. Bat manufacturers are required to participate in an MLB-sponsored workshop on the engineering properties and grading practices of wood as they relate to baseball bats.

7. MLB representatives will regularly visit manufacturers to check on the procedures.
8. Audits will be conducted randomly to monitor implementation of the procedures.

9. A third-party bat certification and quality control program will be established to certify new suppliers, approve new species of wood, provide training and education to bat manufactures and address issues of non-compliance.

The program will be funded through a higher administration fee that must be paid by companies that manufacture bats. Fees will rise from $5,000 to $10,000. So far, the research project has cost MLB approximately $500,000. Part of the motivation for the project has been financial. Liability insurance requirements for possible injuriescaused by a shattered bat have risen from $5 million to $10 million an incident
Oct. 28, 2009
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Hockey is still using the same puck as 30 years ago , Do you want to go back to the ball they used in the 80s the SB12,
Years ago suspension helments in football, now they have space age foam and air helments. Race cars do use restricter plates to slow them down. And the maple bat quote was kinda stupid.
Maple is still wood just a good wood
Just like CU31 is a good aluminum alloy but its not composites
Seniors going from CU31 to composites would be like Pros going from Maple to Aluminum . A HUGE GAME CHANGER
Joe you are losing the argument and looking more stupid everyday.

I would say dumb down the ball a little
Have HRs as singles and no PPR rule , just let the pitcher pitch from the rubber to six foot back and you would have a good game. SSUSA needs to have a bat testing equipemnt and not let the bats get any hotter than the present bats.
Cause if that is not kept in check they are just going to keep making them hotter and hotter
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Wow, Kevin.
It's about players going to maple
because maple hits better,
without all the smoke blowing
around regulation and control.
Given your experience in softball
it sounds like you'd have a market
in wood bat business to control, capture
and move around.
It's simple game we want to play
and we want to play it
with good bats and balls
irrespective of you
or anything you do.
GA-Rocket,
you don't even have the stones
to tell us who you are.
It's understandable you don't have the stones to play a real man's game
with good bats and balls.
Oct. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
JohnBob,

Thanks on the congrats. Just sad its over for the year. Good job to you guys for finishing 2nd. Tell everyone I said hey.

Butch
Oct. 28, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4316 posts
Butch17,
There is still Vegas in mid Nov.
Oct. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
taits,

Too close to Phx with us being from midwest and the cost. I wish we could play in vegas or Ft. Meyers.
Oct. 28, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
joe's post
Oct. 26, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
1400 posts
Just a word for any newcomers.
The most of us won't respond to malignant
naysayers like Dirty and whom Maddog seems to be becoming on this site.
They are welcome to contact me anytime
to discuss or start any argument
they might chose and they know it
but to waste time and energy
with them on this site is at best
a waste of a good man's time.

so i'm a naysayer,why,tell me.you don't have a clue do you joe,you really don't know, as to what i'm about,but you continue to call me names and feel that i'm on some agenda,but hey your not.hey lets go play paintball with 45's,m-16's, hand grenade's so we can satisfy your need for danger.
how about you start your own assoc and you wouldn't have to cry so much.you just pile the bodies to the side as they die from your hot shots,we can also put notches on your bat for everyone you can seriously injure or kill.
what i really like is that you bring in a nascar icon for your post and you don't know crap about it.do you think they go out there with the intention of dieing,they go out there to win and come back to thier love ones in one piece.please tell me different,as i know of no one who goes to do something with the intention of dieing or seriously injuring themselves.
i say you get some stones and advocate for us to play a safer game with out losing anyone b/c some blohard wants to hit a ball 450'.you say your doing this for the little guy,BS,you are the biggest blowhard i have ever seen.
Oct. 28, 2009
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Einstein I have more stones than you might think.
I am 55 and do still play, but when I do play I play with the ( as you might say the kids) We play Men's Class C, did play B until it seemed evrybody starting dropping down. Is my team great NO but we still hang in there and compete. And no we do not get to use the Senior bats but I do hit a long one on occassions. I try to make sure I am on base when the true homerun hitters come up.

I had my chance to play at the higher level in the 70s and played Major Industrial against teams like Pharr Yarn they have a few in the ASA Hall of Fame.
Combustion Engineering out of Tenn, Aetna Life insurance from NC and the old Riegel Rifles, Sikorsky Air, Pabst International so believe me I have been around the block just as much or more than you ever will. But I will say in the 70s and 80s that was when softball was real and it took men to hit a homerun NOT WITH PLASTIC STICKS.

I would say at best, I was average to above average but worked on my game everyday and had some success with the long ball. 4-5 each tournament it seemed. But I can say I never said we had to have hot balls and bats Just an old DCXX or later the Meathead and we could hit them just as far as we needed to.
So to say I have no Stones is an understatement. Cause I figure If I had to I would still outplay you old AZZ
Oct. 28, 2009
Rightrj
Men's 50
56 posts
Now Now Little boys, can you all just get along.....
Oct. 28, 2009
tattooball
604 posts
Maple does not hit better than ash or any other wood. The reason maple became so popular with major league players is that you can dry it much more than ash. A drier wood means lighter. So you are getting a bat that is 1.5 - 2 ounces lighter than a comparable ash bat, this means more bat speed. This also means the bat will explode. MLB has addressed the saftey issue of this just like every other sport has concerns in saftey.

On a side note USSSA approved the .52/275 ball for play on monday and will allow the use of .40/325 balls until they are gone. This goes into effect 4-1-2010
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Wouldn't you know, Kevin,
you'd have the angle on how/why
maple hits better.
The point I was making is that it hits
better and that's why players
gravitate toward it.
Because hitting better, swinging faster
with better results
are intrinsically satisfying
to hitters in general
and that includes softball players.
A side note about your pillow ball
275 x 52 pillow ball only shows
what PT Barnum said about Americans
and that a sucker is born every minute.

A side note, Kevin???
What are you smoking.
It's been you working behind the scenes
all along to get acceptance for your
invention, that 275 x 52 pillow
that the great majority of seniors
in Oakdale said stunk.
The one that doesn't sound good,
bounce good or hit good when center
struck.
A rep of MTC said to Terry
he would not attend another SSUSA
event if that ball was ever used.
But congratulations.
You're a magnificent salesman
and marketeer.
But our game ain't broken
and we don't need you to fix it
for us and you.
Oct. 28, 2009
tattooball
604 posts
On a side note facts are facts, except to egotistcial pigs like yourself. I bet when you were a kid playing in the neighborhood, if you didn't get your way you took your ball and went home to mommy.

By the way my profile is not filled out........
Oct. 28, 2009
Paco13
363 posts
I have played SS all my life at various levels up to occasional industrial B and my reflexes and quickness still very good I will say excellent without blowing my horn tooo much. The reality is that senior ball is extremely dangerous for infielders. In Phoenix I played 50 major and the few bullets that were hit through the IF by the time that I move the ball was already in the OF. We are taking the defense aspect of the game out of the equation, tell you the truth it is boring playing IF in seniors, no action at all...I prefer to play D/C with the kids than play senior, I still get ground balls that can be made into outs abd my life is not on jeopardy. I love hitting with the Grey combat...what a feeling when you hit it, but is the bat not me. Nothing going to change regardless if somebody gets hurt or not. Is all about the money, so we can argue back and forth and nothing is going to change. Einstein, yes we all like to hit the nice balls with nice bats but at what price. Personally lets use U trip bats and 44/375 ball, that will satisfy me. May GOD be with U all always.
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Congratulations, Maddog.
You're now with Dirty
and not worth the ink for me to respond
to you anymore on this site.
If you have anything to say to me
email me or let me know your email
address and we can take it off line.

Let's not get side tracked.
Most senior players want to play with
a lively bat/ball combo.
Anything else is plain ignorance,
snake oil or money talking.
It's that simple.
Oct. 28, 2009
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
391 posts
I have no idea how the new 52/275 ball will hit but IMO the ball / bat combination we have been using the last few years reults in to many home runs. On the other hand scores of 9/6 will chase away teams in a hurry as well.
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
LVSSA is the model for satisfying
senior ball.
The most players had the best time
of any of the tournaments I attended
this year.
That's all guys were saying
the whole tournament through.
Lively ball, good bats,
No PPR or DBO's for HR.
That should be the model for senior softball.
We can tone the ball down a bit
perhaps but only a tad
and seniors are right where
we want to be.
Make masks mandatory
or use pitching screens if you are
TRULY interested in safety
but let us have fun hitting
and playing our game.
Oct. 28, 2009
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
I have been biting my tongue for weeks about the trump balls. When we played in PHX in the 60 Major Plus{GSF} it was 102 degrees, the site directors and umpires had the balls sitting in the sun, or under a picnic table or in their rental cars.....thus making the ball's mush. That weekend, the guys that were supposed to hit homeruns hit them. Last weekend when I played in the 50's {CJ & S} it was only 85, and the directors and umpires kept the balls in a temp. controlled area. The umpires we had, most of them let the teams keep the balls in the shade and in the dugouts. The balls were flying out of the park, same ball!!! As far as the LVSSA ball, they were insane, guys that I have never seen hit hrs, hit them over the 30' net. now this was not right. If you just look at the directions on the trump ball box it tells you how to store the balls, all these guys have to do is read the box!!!
Oct. 28, 2009
Garocket
Men's 55
141 posts
Come on Einstein where are all your supporters for hot balls and bats. I have been noticing that almost nobody is with you on this subject

You say the vegas ball was perfect and more and more people are calling it an insane, crazy and not the norm. Balls flying out way to easy.

I am just waiting on some of your supporters, cause all I hear from you is you speak for the masses of senior players , Well it does not seem the masses are backing up up

As one poster said so nicely
Down goes Rinaldi, Down Goes Rinalda, Down goes Rinaldi

That sounds soooooo good
C,mon Joe you have to admit that is funny
Oct. 28, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
gump has NOOOOOO sense of humor, particularly the self-deprecating variety. I just wish he would tell us what his workout routine is to improve his bat speed and power instead of just relying on other's technology to do all the work for him.
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Most players don't comment on this board.
Most players, like me,
understand the game
simply and like to hit good balls
with good bats.
This is obvious and a no brainer.
We have no current representation
and TD's and manufacturers are a natural team to develop products to make
more money.
So, until we get representation
I guess I'm it to try and make sure
we don't get slamboozled this time
or sold solutions that truly
are not in our best interest.
The PPR and HR's as outs
as poor Bill Ruth's near tragic injury ironically showed
were not in our best interests
and MUST be changed for next year.
That much is a given and it doesn't matter who attends whatever meeting or convention.
Oct. 28, 2009
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Einstein is very sure that his opinions reflect the “vast majority” of all senior players. And that means his opinions on everything!

Let’s see if that is true. I agree with him that a home run being ruled a dead ball out is a loser rule. I agree with him that the PPR has been ineffective. I agree with him that softball is a risky sport and injuries will occur in all conditions. I agree with him that pitching screens are the future to protect the pitcher. And probably masks will become mandatory. I agree with him that a lot of guys get a charge out of hitting a ball farther than they ever could when they were young (loved Garocket’s term “with plastic sticks”).

But I don’t agree with him that most seniors like a hot bat/ball combo. Most seniors I talk to use a Miken or equivalent, but they would go back gladly to a double wall or even an aluminum if everyone else did. I don’t agree that most seniors are willing to sacrifice defense, strategy, base running, etc. for the possible pleasure of hitting a long HR over the fence. Most seniors I play with realize that a slower ball is an equal condition for both teams and that you just have to adjust when the homers are not flying, and so they are not looking for a return to the Red Dots of old. I don’t agree with him that slowing reflexes and weakening eyesight is not a big problem for seniors.

Since I disagree, einstein has said I am exhibiting “plain ignorance, snake oil, or money talking.”

As to ignorance of the game and other players, I am in my 60s and have played league and/or tournament ball every single year since I was 13. I know einstein can’t match that record of experience and knowledge. I have played with hundreds of teammates over that time. I think I know how most of them feel about things.

As to snake oil, this implies a hidden agenda or dishonesty. It’s a weak challenge, implying that he knows the motivation or perspective of all the many (majority?) who disagree with him. It’s also demeaning as it impugns the character of any objector.

As to money??? Where? How do all the objectors (Dirty, Garocket, mad dog, Bob50, JohnBob, #19, etc.) get any money out of wanting a return to older bats or safer balls or time-tested old-fashioned competitive softball marked by the rare home run? Am I missing something?
Oct. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe my friend,

You keep bringing up Bill Ruth I'm assuming to get a point across about hr being outs but what about the pitchers in Vegas that got hit or barely missed when there was unlimited hrs and in other divisions they were singles. Balls hit up the middle were a norm not an exception. So I as one do NOT think Vegas with their balls are the standard I would want. I will not speak for others as they need to voice their own opinions as should you voice only for yourself. Let others speak either against us or for us but not by us.

Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Definition and clarification
are fundamentally good things.
But I wouldn't be so quick
to decree that balls we seniors
say were a problem in your tournaments
will be used anyway.
The balls underachieved in the very hot weather and SSUSA needs to let seniors know they care about us by being open
to our observations and
a better solution.
The decree days are gone forever, boys.
Finality, you say?
That sounds awfully like an organization
that wants our business
and is closed to us and our best interests.
Not a good way to be.
Oct. 28, 2009
CRUSADERVB
Men's 65
272 posts
My final 2 cents worth;
#1 eliminate the homerun for an out rule, singles after your max hr limit.
#2 why should the 60's have a smaller limit on homeruns, all the major plus should be the same, whether it be 50, 55 or 60 or older.
#3 read the Trump box on how to store the trump balls, very simple!!!
#4 keep the Ultra's, Combats and Toxic
aka Launch 510
Oct. 28, 2009
jimjoes-gman
Men's 55
80 posts
Garocket talk to me .You brought back memories when you mentioned those Industrial teams.I played against most all of them and more.I played with GE Wacos (1978 ASA Major Industrial Champs) and (GE Local 761 ASA Class A Natl Industrial Champs). WHO WERE YOU WITH ?
Oct. 28, 2009
db14
90 posts
I have reserved my comments and wish to state that i truly understand the issues regarding the quality and performance of the current Senior ball. Much has to do with an individuals type of hitting. Many who typically are considered base hitters are not that passionate regarding a good, solid ball. HOWEVER...i personally hit several times a week AND included in our batting practice balls are several of the actual Trump .52/275 balls TESTED IN LAGUNA CA earlier this year.... FACT: the general consensus is that these balls are in actuality and pardon my expression garbage and very well could be considered a "limited flight" ball. Just another observation.
Oct. 28, 2009
tooslow
Men's 40
4 posts
Here’s my long winded 2 cents on this ball/bat/safety topic…

Back in around 2000 I used to kind of chuckle about guys hitting the ball 400+ft with obviously altered equipment when we were hitting 330+ft with stock USSSA/ASA approved bats and a good ball (47/525). I really didn’t care how far “the cheaters” hit it as 1 ft over the fence works as well as 100ft, but there’s nothing funny or fun about how the USSSA/ASA game has evolved since. Several guys that I’ve played with for years, and that have plenty of power, who would have never even thought about altering their equip were actually contemplating getting juiced bats last year because of the ball and the fact that they couldn’t compete with the cheaters… Unfortunately going to a softer ball rewarded the cheaters and enticed those who weren’t cheating to contemplate it…

So my conclusion is that going to a supposedly “safer”, softer ball, more guys will “cheat” as a result.

If you don’t believe me look at the crap going on in the kids game (at every level). Including the Major level…

I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to hit my share of HR’s in every decade I’ve played (80’s, 90’s, and now…) But I have to say that this past summer was one of the hardest. When the temps got above 100 in the Phoenix area the 40cor 300 ball that USSSA decided to use this year was none too lively. My struggles weren’t because of diminished skills, they were because the ball was a sock in those temps. However the guys who did have “Hot” bats we’re still hitting the ball hard/out so much so I actually considered getting one myself (glad I didn’t). USSSA made several ball changes over the past few years to address the bat problems and each time my personal performance has been penalized as a result. Frankly there’s nothing more frustrating to me personally to have my game negatively impacted simply because others are cheating. What makes it worse is that the cheating is obvious and yet still nothing is done… Why?? Because they’re not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

One bright spot in all this was that I could look forward to playing some Masters events where the playing field is somewhat leveled by allowing hot bats and decent balls. So we recently played the over 40 world tourney out at Grayhawk and were hitting (44/375’s). We hit some HR’s with our senior bats on fences which are 325 I believe in 100 degree heat. We didn’t hit any cheap HR’s for sure but balls that were well struck went… We saw some shots back through the box but in all honesty thought that if the ball was any mushier play would have been adversely affected. Unfortunately we did think there were some altered bats being used BUT we had a great time. It was also a confirmation that personally I could still hit comparatively speaking and that if I was willing to cheat I could do the same in the kids game. But then again I shouldn’t have to cheat to compete…

Anyway the above leads me to my recommendation which is that if you guys want to spend your energy on something, go implement a system that regulates and measures bat performance (real time). Eliminate the possibility to cheat first. If you don’t, you’ll eventually wind up where the other associations are now with crappy balls and paper thin bats. Heck you’d probably be surprised how many altered bats there are in the seniors game already. Those are the guys making the game truly unsafe. Once you get that problem solved then you can focus on what equipment provides the level of competition/safety/enjoyment you desire. May take some “out of the box” thinking like creating competitive and rec divisions where equip lists vary. But I will caveat this by saying you don’t see folks swarming to play wood bat leagues or single wall leagues so be careful that a few vocal folks in the minority don’t speak for the majority. Your game isn’t broken yet but it could be easily if you try to fix the symptoms rather than focus on solutions that address the real problem(s)… You all know the old saying “those who don’t remember the past are doomed to repeat it” could be very relevant here.

Also, with the technology advances (internet and ID cards) today it wouldn’t surprise me if you couldn’t vote on proposed equipment changes too… Why not let the silent majority (registered players) speak for themselves…

With respect to safety, My opinion is that as an adult you get a choice. You decide BEFORE you play if you’re willing to accept the inherent risks (balls, bats, fields, weather, etc) of the game. Hopefully you can make an informed choice and one aspect of being informed is knowing that whatever safety measures that are put in place are being adhered to (which includes the BPF)… And last but not least, I fully endorse wearing a mask on the hill. I have one and wear it when I pitch regardless of the competition level AND rest assured that I’m not worried about being called a sissy over it… ;)
Oct. 28, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Mandatory masks just to feed old men's egos? Absurd.

Pitching screens that will make the infield look like a miniature golf hole? Beyond absurd.

If you don't feel safe, don't play. Or go play co-ed. Or go play checkers.
Oct. 28, 2009
dj
32 posts
tooslow: that was the best post on this subject I have seen,
dj
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Too slow.
Excellent post.
The whole bat/ball thing got rolling
from TD's using cheaper/shitty balls.
A hot bat was an antidote for having a
shitty game/tournament/time.
The solution has to solve the problem
of guys getting cheated on their investment by having good balls and bats
as the standard.
That's why cheating in seniors
is not significant and won't be
as long as we use good bats and balls.
The minute the balls get dumb
the batters whip out the "good" bats
to insure having a good time.

Oct. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
If I'm not mistaken when I was younger playing A and Major ball there was home run limits, playing 35&over, 40&over, 45&over there was home run limits. I believe that I watched a softball game on tv between USA and Canada with some of the best players in the country and they had home run limits so what makes us so special that we feel the need not to use this rule? Remember this was before the senior bats. Maybe I'm just senile and dreamed all this. Just my .02
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
For safety, Butch.
Older guys are a little slower
and when you make HR's outs
big guys will drive the middle.
Oct. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
So if we change the rule and the big guys hit the middle are they out? I know of several pitchers hit several times in vegas and the home runs were not outs. Please explain. Thanks Joe.
Oct. 28, 2009
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
SSUSA staff . You are missing the point on the balls . A 44/375 ball is fine . Have no problem with those specs . But , it is not a 375 ball when it is over 80 degrees . This is the point you are missing and not addressing . The 44/375 microcell ball hits the same at 105 as it does at 70 . Told Hennesy this in Scottsdale and he said they had tested the ball in Sacto. and no one liked it . If this is the case , then it was not the same ball, either coincidentally or on purpose . If it is not being used because it is not Anaconda`s ball . Then have Anaconda make a microcell 44/375 . In my opinion , if you are specifying a 44/375 ball and are not concerned with it not being a 44/375 in hot weather . Then you are not sincerely interested in maintaing a 44/375 standard .
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
PPR is a joke and an embarrassment
for SSUSA.
I watched the best senior players
on the planet, the Mavericks
and Gekkle, play in Vegas
with BOTH pitchers, Mickey Hughes
and Mark Huber pitching almost exclusively
from the front of the rubber
and listen carefully, Butch,
not one ball went through either pitcher.
If Big Guys can go yard
they go and stay off the pitchers
unless there's an accident
or retaliation
which are still part of the game
we play and need to be.
Oct. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Foothills,
Great point.
Terry and Dave
are you listening?
Oct. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe now it is your turn to listen carefully, as YOU said we are olderand a little slower so we dont want or need your Vegas rocketball. It amazes me that you talk about safety when you mention home runs but talk another tune when it comes to balls and bats.

You have never answered me about all the balls hitting pitchers in Vegas but do mention terry's tourney so you must know that hennessy's ball is much safer than your vegas ball as you always ignore the questions you know you are wrong about. I dont use names but I will tell you one of the finest pitchers in the country said he was glad to get out of Vegas with only broken fingers and a few bruises and he also pitches Major+.
Oct. 28, 2009
Rocko
23 posts
I believe the trump rock micro ball is to dangerous as butch said. In vegas to many broken fingers in major division. We used this ball in the 50's league in St Louis with USSSA bat rules and the ball worked great. But the ball is to lively with the ultra 2 bats. So I believe if you want a good ball in the heat use this ball with usssa bat rules, and save someone's life.
















Oct. 28, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
I'm sorry Joe but I do not believe there was not one single ball hit in the middle of the diamond in a seven inning game.
Oct. 28, 2009
RIK56
Men's 50
120 posts
ok i have to throw my opinon in here also,i think a good ball is important for the senior game,the last thing i want to see is 6 to 4 games but the micro ball is just to much with the senior bats.i have hit the trump stote in the heat with a senior bat and it will go out of the park,i dont consider myself a homerun hitter but i can take one out now and then,with the micro rock i can not catch it solid and i will get it out with a senior bat.while i'm at it home runs for a out i hate that rule,ppr hate that also,screen for the pitcher nope dont like that either.keg on second base ok i will go for that.
Oct. 28, 2009
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
Peanuts anyone?
Oct. 28, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Butch maybe your division doesn't like each other I didn't see any middle stuff at all in Vegas, in the games I watched and played in. It's not Einstein's Vegas rockball either the club felt this was the ball that performed the best given the heat we have in Vegas. Joe is not a member of LVSSA and as far as I know did not have any input into the ball chosen. Is there a happy medium probably. LVSSA is not SPA nor SSUSA it is different I don't think it makes any claims otherwise. The guys work hard to put on a fun event in a great city. Maybe you guys in the midwest can put on a ISSA event (Indiana Senior softball association)
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Joe.
The Las Vegas tourney was, hands down,
the best tournament of the year
and the MOST players had a good time
due to the lively bat/ball combo
and rules most seniors want and need
to have a good time.
They put on a GREAT event and
I wouldn't miss any LVSSA event
next year and I offer to pitch
for any team that shows up.
And how many pitchers got crippled,
Butch?
None.
I got hit in the face in Phoenix
the year before with Trump Stote balls.
Me and Marko from the Northwest.
That's the trouble with you guys.
The stats don't show up.
When Terry Hennessey actually did
a safety study over the last 10 years
he found that players are not getting hurt any more regularly since the Ultra 2.
There's simple easy ways to make pitching safer, if that's what we want
to do without taking the balls out of the ball or us.
Masks are an easy solution.
Screens would work, too.
Giving the pitchers more angles,
height and depth would, too.
Butch.
The great majority of players
enjoy the game better and more
with lively bats and balls.
Of this, there is no doubt.
You're entitleld to your opinion
and you may have another angle on this
but you do NOT represent the majority
of players and the majority
is what SSUSA needs to access,
poll and listen to,
whether or not they attend
some meeting in Georgia.
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
As for not believing me,
Butch you weren't there
which is beginning to explain
why what you mostly say is groundless.
I watched the whole game,
Butch and one ball went to the left
of Mickey Hughes on the ground
and he didn't have to get out of the way.
Still don't believe me?
Then your not interested in the truth.
Oct. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Lecak,

The comment about pitching came from a Major+ pitcher from a complete different division than ours so I'm assuming only the 50 Major+ is the only division it didn't happen in.
As far as me saying Joe's ball it is what he has been promoting. Joe and I talk to a lot of the same people as he names some on his thread and he knows the x-rock is the most dangerous of all the balls we have been talking about. If that was a snide remark about the midwest Lecack I always thought you better than that. Even though the Vegas tourney has had and still does some serious problems. From time to time there have been both balls and bats banned in softball. T-2000 and grey ultra and there has been others. Joe you are right I wasn't there for the fifties but was for the fifty-fives and I know what I saw. As for you or I speaking for the masses Neither of us can. If you think you do then you don't realize that there are over 1 million softball players and that would not make you an Einstein so when you say you do even you could't really think that. This is why I have a hard time with you. I have finally found out what you are about and its Joe and not what is good for OUR game. Our game meaning over a MILLION players not just you and a few.
Unless you have over 500,001+ names we don't ever need to say we speak for the masses. Now who is groundless?
Oct. 29, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Butch was not meant to be slam on the midwest I know better than that, we have to play you guys. Please understand the thought and hard work that the ladies and gentlemen of LVSSA put in to make the two events go. I hit with these people every weekend and without these folks nothing happens. The membership picked the ball not Einstein, not Stoneman, not Trumpball. We were given a series of balls in the heat and told to hit them and give feedback. I agree with you on the LVSSA as to the problems, in defense of the membership it has improved dramatically and we Las Vegas are bringing on a series of new fields. Some of ratings SNAFU's are legendary hopefully that will get better. Butch I'm betting you've run tournaments I have also nothing worse than working your butt off and having unhappy customers. As to the "Vegas ball" from some of the long standing members in LVSSA tell me it has always been the philosphy to make it hitter friendly.
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Butch.
I think you're a good guy
and seriously interested in senior softball.
I think some ideas are fundamental
to the positive experience of our game
and though I haven't polled
all 100,000 of the players
I know how the majority of them
would feel on certain key issues.
I never met a player who said
he wants to play with a poorly performing bat/ball combo.
Not one.
Even though I haven't polled
the entire group
there's no doubt in my mind
this is a majority opinion
and there would be others, too.
Common sense, Butch.
Common sense.
If you want
we can take this off line at
joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
and continue.
I'm beginning to think the majority
of readers will not benefit
from you and I continuing to disagree
on such fundamental stuff.
Oct. 29, 2009
tattooball
604 posts
You're ASSUMING it is a majority opinion.
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Intellectually, speaking
you can't prove anything, Kevin,
any time or any place.
You can't even prove you're alive,
to Socrates.
That's sophomore logic and philosophy.
But common sense dictates
one can know things without having to check with everyone first.
For example,
I can't prove that everyone wants
and needs the same things deep down inside from life like
love, respect, positive sense of self
worth but
I know it's true without having to conduct a poll.
Almost every senior player,
the overwhelming majority
of senior players
want to hit a good ball
with a good bat.
I don't need to poll
to know this is true
or call a meeting or convention
to determine it's veracity.
Oct. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Lecack, I am sorry I took your comment out of context and I understand where you are coming from. Yes I have run tourneys and know the frustration.

Einstein you are right it does no one any good for our personal disagreements.
I enjoy and love the game of softball and I only want what is good for ALL of softball not a certain age group or a certain division. Most players do want to hit a decent ball but it does not have to be a ball like the X-Rock with its SI rating over 2700.( Lecack notice I didn't say Joe's vegas ball).
Oct. 29, 2009
tattooball
604 posts
Joe you can't prove anything other than what you have already proven to all, that if you don't get your way you are nothing more than a hot air wind bag.

I agree that every senior wants a good ball to hit, but not every senior agrees with you what that ball is. As you can see by the post's from your peers not all of them agree with you. Instead of participating in a logical and informative discussion about this topic you attack your peers for not laying down to your childish rant. Hell for the self appointed ruler of senior softball I don't think 50% of your peers in this thread agree with you. Kinda hard for you to play the majority card with that record Joe.....
Oct. 29, 2009
the wood
1075 posts
Let me throw my can of gasoline on this fire... :-)
I, too, received an email from Stoneman about the 44/375 Stote... more than one, in fact... I don't trust him around the women and kids :-) but the man does understand the science of bats and balls.
He did state that the high heat (100 degrees) compromises the Stote's compression down to the 200-225 range. He ALSO SAID that, at 50 degrees, the compression is up around 475-500. But this is not news because both Stoney and Kevin have stated this many times in the past. SSUSA has used this ball (almost exclusively) since 2005. We've used it under many different conditions. We KNOW this and, theoretically, we know the weather before going to their events. Why should we be surprised?
Under the 'all generations are false' category, in the 60 M+ division, I saw two pitchers get hit... one in LV and one in AZ... both batters had HRs available to them... both times it was accidental... stuff happens... neither was hurt badly.
Einstein, you mentioned 3 days ago (in a rebuke to Jim16) that the sole reason MTC hit the middle in the last inning was because the heat reduced the ball's effectiveness. Actually, one of the hitters in that inning had already hit 2 HRs in that game. MTC had 3 HRs left to hit w/o it being an out. The real reason was that the pitches were up in the sun. Don't lose sight of this.
LVSSA- a lot has been said about the 'ranking issues' and their choice of the balls. Has the ranking issue only been indigenous to LVSSA? I do not believe so. As Lecak stated, they have always tried to make it 'hitter friendly'... rules, choice of equipment, etc. We KNOW this before we go there.
There are 27,000 SSUSA card carrying members... at least, this was true 2 years ago. Roughly 2% of these people are active on this board... given this, can anyone really say that they represent a majority?
There were 311 teams in AZ over the past 2 weeks. To me, this equates to an impressive level of acceptance for SSUSA. Do I like all of their rules? No. Did all of the players on the 311 teams? No. Did they show up to play? Yes. I was/am impressed that LVSSA had 8 teams in our division.
Which event did I personally like best (LVSSA or SSUSA)? I liked parts of both and didn't agree with 100% of either. What I have grown to appreciate is the fact that we have choices... pick the one/ones that you like best and avoid the others.
In all cases, regardless of which assn you choose, there are many people that work behind the scenes to make their event worthwhile... we ought not lose sight of this.
BW
Oct. 29, 2009
the wood
1075 posts
Correction:
in the 8th line down... it should have read 'generalizations', not 'generations'...
BW
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Good comments, Bob.
Kevin.
You manipulate everything about us
into your program for sales.
That's what you are.
A manufacturer and seller of softball
equipment.
You have nothing to say that isn't
produced or tainted by your defined
self interest.
Stop trying to act like your one of us
or primarily interested in us
because you've shown repeatedly
you are not.
Make good balls and bats
and we'll buy 'em if they're good enough
and stop trying to re-engineer
OUR game, the one you don't play
or care about.
Oct. 29, 2009
tattooball
604 posts
Name 1 fact that has been manipulated.
I will be playing next november and carrying my card....
Oct. 29, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Woody, good post.
Oct. 29, 2009
the wood
1075 posts
Thanks... even a broken clock can be right twice/day...
:-)
Oct. 29, 2009
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
We all want good bats and good balls. We just have a different opinion on what those are. ASA and USSSA both have MAJOR bat problems, we in senior ball have MINOR bat problems. In ASA "If you dont cheat you will get beat". In USSSA you have to "cheat to compete". In senior softball you have to be the best to win and cheating doesnt get you there. We use the best bats, why would any sane person try to doctor their bat to hit it maybe one foot farther and risk law suits and banishment. We in senior ball have the bat issue pretty much solved.
The .52 Cor 275 pound ball is more about solving the bat issue, not the ball issue. The 52 plays the same hot as cold and there is only about a 3% difference in hitting a wood bat verses a senior bat. The ball almost solves the bat problem, does solve the temperature problem and the major players (By the way, Joe, you ain't one of the major players) actually voted almost unanimously that they preferred the .52 over the 44 375 ball. In the Canada VS USA game on ESPN BOTH teams voted that they wanted to use the .52 and not the 44 375. Joe, you are right we want good balls and good bats. The rest of what you have to say is showing your IGNORANCE. If you'd just smile, show up and play and SHUT UP you might even be appreciated.
Oct. 29, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2617 posts
I too want good balls. I want a ball to be good in high temps. I don't know if it means using the XRocks or just MCT's or other 44/375's.
As for XRocks, they use them here in the ASA leagues and I haven't heard one complaint. Didn't they also use them in the ISA Nationals in Gallatin?
Maybe with correct storage of the Stotes before and between games they will be good.
Oct. 29, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
yeah jim,basically what i've been saying about the 52-275 ball all along.the hr hitters will still be hitting it out,which is why joey boy doesn't want to use it,he won't be a hero anymore.i watch that usa-can game and they hit thier limit,well the usa did,canada was 1 or 2 short.
yes if asked i'll assume all senior players will say they want to hit the ball hard and far,but now ask those same players what they think about playing the field against senior bats and hot balls.they'll tell you it can be very dangerous to them,game shouldn't be that way,its rec ball,we are not getting paid to do this.
so get off "you wanna be a hero" crusade and come back to the real world.

wood you might be right about stoney LOL,a little squirlly but knows his stuff about the balls and bats.
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
My game and credentials speak for themselves, Jim, and your ignorance
separates you from a lot of my friends,
and those I've played against and for.
Suffice to say,
you and Kevin are working the same side
of the street and you guys
always seem to have all the answers.
Stats never lie and liars use
stats, I always say.
Snake oil salesmen always comes to mind
when I think of the 2 of you.
What are you selling us this week.
Dirty, is the only senior
I know with a worse earned name
and reputation in the game,
than you, Doctor Jim.
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You guys want to sell your goods
to us first, it defines who you
and Kevin are, and your acolytes.
I tried to explain to Kevin
a long time ago what a conflict of interest is and I'm still not sure
he wants to cop to it.

Our game ain't broken and you guys
wanna fix it for yourselves and your associates for years to come.
A loud, self serving, obnoxious and powerful few
not matter how rich or well organized
do not speak for the majority
of players who want to play with good bats and balls.
You guys have been trying to tell us
our game is out of hand with
doctored bats (something you sure
know something about, jim)
increased injuries which don't show up
and high scoring, boring softball games (not if you play in them)
all in the interest
of selling us the antidotes,
your new balls and bats
that will solve all our problems
and in some cases, for just a couple of dollars more.

We weren't born yesterday
and listen to this.
Most of the guys get me, what I'm saying
and what I'm all about.
I get a ton of support.
I'm not lobbying for any popularity contest or trying to sell them anything.
I like our game and want to keep
playing and enjoying it.

And yes Jim, you were right
when you said
it's all about money
and we both know what you meant.
Oct. 29, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
joe how about answering the questions that have been asked of you,instead of just bashing everyone that doesn't think like you,what no answers.
joe what do YOU think of steriod use in senior players.you seem to know everything else,why don't YOU tell us about that.
Oct. 29, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
gump, have you ever thought of posting less, or at least shorter, and using the extra time to workout and you might not need someone else's technology to enable you to have fun?
Oct. 29, 2009
tattooball
604 posts
Joe doesn't answer questions because he thinks it's his ball, now that you don't agree with him he is going to take it and go home to mommy.
He also doesn't answer questions because in every post he contradicts himself and if he actually answered some questions it would be so obvious that he reall doesn't have a clue.

The game isn't broken Joe, it's the equipment and rules that are. Why do they have to make new rules for the game every 12 months. Here's a list of some they are looking at this year. But of course you already know this.

PER me CONVER' w/ DAVE:: SOME POSSIBLE RULEs CHANGEs for 2010..

1.) THERE WILL b SOME CHANGE 2 THE PITCHERs RULE. BETTER CLARITY.

2.) OVER THE HR LIMIT 4 an OUT. THERE WILL STILL b SOME LIMIT.
Possibility's:
1.) 12 or 10, 4 ALL MAJOR PLUS.

2.) If, a TEAM is OUT of HOME RUNS, if, THE BATTER DOES NOT HAVE 2
STRIKEs on THEM, an OVER THE FENCE BALL, WILL b a FOUL BALL.
THIS MEANs THAT a PLAYER w/ no STRIKEs, COULD HIT 2 BALLs OVER THE
FENCE. EACH BALL, WOULD b a FOUL BALL.

3.) SS-USA, WILL LOOK INTO THE 44/ 375-400 MCT BALL. SS-USA, NOW
UNDERSTANDS, THAT AFTER 8-9 yrs, THE PROPER STORAGE of THE 44/375,
NON-MCT BALL.

4.) It APPEARs, THAT AFTER THE PAST 2 WKENDs & SEVERAL MESSAGE
BOARD POST, THAT SS-USA, WILL NEED 2 BETTER INSTRUCT THE FIELD
DIRECTORs & UMPs, on PROPER STORAGE of THE TRUMP-STOTE BALL.

SS-USA, UNDERSTANDs THAT THE PRESENT 44 cor BALL, HAS A RANGE of
495 comp @ 50 DEGREES & LESS THAN 200 comp, WHEN THE TEMP' is
OVER 100 DEGREES.

THE 325' FIELDS, WILL b USED by THE 40s, 50s, 55s, & 60s. AGAIN, EACH yr, MOST of THE AGE GROUPs WILL MOVE FROM COMPLEX 2 ANOTHER COMPLEX THE FOLLOW' yr.
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're an name calling, arrogant pig,
Kevin, who thinks he's smarter
than everyone else.
You don't play or like our game,
the senior game,
but you want to change it
so you and Doctor Jim
can make money off us.
And you don't think we get it.
We're on to you, Kevin.
That would be a majority opinion
including your business associates
at SSUSA whom you like to blame for
not buying all your crap.
Our game ain't broken, Kevin
and we certainly don't need
or want an outsider who doesn't play
or love our game to dictate who we are
and how we're supposed to play.
It's worth repeating,
you're an arrogant pig.
We had a great time in Vegas
with their balls and rules.
That was real fun
where the majority of players
had a great time
and no one got crippled or hurt.
We want good balls and bats
and our game back,
you self-centered prick.


Oct. 29, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Joe,
You are starting to cross the line. Keep it civil. One simple question. Do you have a problem with the Stote used in Phoenix if it properly stored prior to the game or do you believe everyone should use the Rock which was used in Vegas?
Oct. 29, 2009
JamesLG
297 posts

Guys:

What is the real issue with the balls? Is it safety or HR's? If it is HR's a major piece of the puzzle is when teams should be moved up and for some reason they are not.

Is it all about the mighty dollar?

Thanks:

James
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks for the concern, Bob.
I was just responding in kind.
I don't crap from people any more.
My doctor said it's bad for me.

I'm not sure that in the 103 degrees
of Phoenix the first weekend
it would have made a difference.
Kevin said those balls don't do well
in 100 degrees.
Kevin's microcell 44x400 ball
from what Stoneman explained to me
is probably the best ball
we can all compromise on.
It's the one that costs
2 more dollars a dozen.
Oct. 29, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Okay Joe. Now I know what you would prefer. Hopefully it will be taken into account in hot weather.
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
It's more fun hitting the hotter ball.
If pitchers wore masks
or screens were used
that would be the way to go.
Without mandating safety equipment
then I would go with the Phoenix level
ball as long as it didn't wilt in the sun
like it did the first weekend.

I would prefer the hotter ball
because it makes hitting more fun.
Oct. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
JamesLG,

For some it is safety for others it,s the 400' home run. This is my opinion only that the true home run hitter or great hitter can hit with any ball it,s the marginal hitter that has the problem with balls, heat and 325' fences. example from what I have been told is the x-rock will give you at least an extra 25 ft. over the stote ball. That would make a 280 foot hitter now become a home run hitter on 300' fences but increase the severity of damage if hit by 47%. I just question if it is all worth it just to hit a few more home runs but I only speak for myself.
Oct. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
I must say einstein can hit the ball 300' but would prefer to hit them 400'. So Joe this comment is about guys hitting home runs that are not supposed to be hitting them. It should be the ones that can should and the ones that cannot should not.
Oct. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Butch,
The more lively bat/ball combo
favors the majority of hitters
who are not home run hitters.
Most of the elite long ball hitters feel cheated that smaller guys
can now hit a ball over the fence.
Well, too bad for them, I say.
It's fun hitting a ball hard or
fast or far and shouldn't be denied
a less powerful hitter.

By picking up the pace of the ball
the singles/doubles guys
can hit gaps easier and
get it by players
and through holes easier, too.
Batting averages rise,
smiles increase,
chests swell,
atta-boys abound,
blood pressures drop,
guys buy bats and gloves
and bp balls
and look forward to the next
tournament or to next year.
I've always said the lively bat/ball
combo favors the most players
and it does.
So, I would opt for Las Vegas balls having met reasonable safety
concerns like mandatory masks
because more hitters/players
will have a better time.

It just takes one or two good shots
to make some hitters' weekend.
I wouldn't miss the tournaments in Vegas next year unless I'm dead.
We had a great time and it was not
by accident.

Oct. 30, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
guess your right kevin no answer to my question.maybe i hit a sore spot on steroid use,maybe.
another question is why should a singles hitter be trying to hit a hr to begin with.he should be setting the table for the big guy's.most of your single hitters are now hitting 280-290' pop-ups and making outs with the occasional hr,why.sounds like you want no defence in the game what so ever,just hit the ball out of the park for everyone.that sounds like a lot of fun.
Oct. 30, 2009
tattooball
604 posts
Joe you should be in politics, you never answer any real questions, fail to see any real problems.

This one really shows the truth about you.

"Most of the elite long ball hitters feel cheated that smaller guys
can now hit a ball over the fence.
Well, too bad for them"

This tells the world that is is all about you and others that don't work at the game just wanting to hit cheap home runs, sorry but that is not softball. I also love you thoughts on making the pitchers armour up so you can hit home runs. I guess this post really is all about hitting home runs at all risk to the defense. I've said it before why don't you just hold a home run derby.

Yes Joe now explain your thoughts differently to cover what you just wrote but the majority sees right through you.
Oct. 30, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
"You're an name calling, arrogant pig,
Kevin, who thinks he's smarter
than everyone else."

Anyone else see the blatant hypocrisy in gump's statement here? Does he think at all before he incessantly drones on?

"It's more fun hitting the hotter ball.
If pitchers wore masks
or screens were used
that would be the way to go."

gump, you want to have fun being a hero with the technology of others? Just take BP with Titleists. You want to make the field look like a miniature golf course? Start your own association.
Oct. 30, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The better bat/ball combo
favors MOST of the players
not just a few as I've said before.
It's the same idea as with Kevin's
pillow ball, it's not the long ball
hitters who suffer but the singles
and doubles guys
who aren't able to get enough pace
on a pillow ball to get their balls
through gaps and holes.
A dumber/restricted bat/ball combo
kills the fun of the largest group
of senior players
and that would be a majority, Kevin,
who would be disadvantaged by
your money making machine.
Also, Kevin why don't you tell
us what happened to all the competition
for your balls that used to be out there.
Dropped any dimes lately,
threatened anyone with any law suits,
create any safety commissions to scare
us with lately to capture the market placeand eliminate your competiton.
One of your associates told me
that one of your goals was to eliminate
the Ultra 2 from your competition.
Soft on soft, ball on bat,
would almost get that done.
As I've said numerous times
you're a magnificent and ruthless
business man and it 2009
sad to say that's not a crime
but you don't hold my
or our interests prominently.
You don't like or respect our game
as it is and you have said it before.
We are the means to your financial end.
Again, that's OK and not a crime.
Just don't try to pass yourself
off as our friend who's trying to help us save our sport.
What a crock.
There's nothing wrong with it
and as long a LVSSA stays alive
there'll be a place to go and some real fun playing our game.

Oct. 30, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Shut up and go lift a weight, gump!
Oct. 30, 2009
SSUSA Staff
1128 posts
This thread has exceeded its "120 pitch limit" and is somewhat less than desirable in content. THREAD CLOSED
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