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Discussion: What do you think.

Posted Discussion
Nov. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What do you think.
What percentage of seniors
does anyone think use end-loaded
or shaved bats?
I'll start by saying
5 per cent or less.
Nov. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's illegally end loaded
or shaved bats.
Still 5 per cent or less for me.
Nov. 27, 2009
taits
Men's 65
4344 posts
Some endloads are stock... Miken has at least two.
As for ratio...I doubt you can, but would venture a guess it's in\at all ages and levels.
Read the boards & web sites... Services are advertised on some of the most "reputable" ones out there.
Nov. 27, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, what are you basing that 5% statement on? It is easy just to speculate, what evidence do you have for that?

And by the way, even just 5% means at least one player in EVERY game is using one on average. That is not at all insignificant.
Nov. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary, you're starting to sound positive in the last two posts.
Way to go, really.
No reason, for me,
we can't get along.

I think it's less than 5 per cent
in fact, but even one on a team
is not enough to go to war for.
We just ratchet up the pressure
and consequences to police ourselves
like guys do about hitting the middle.
I hit a rocket through the box
unintentionally against MTC 50's last year in a local tournament
and Smokey 20 pulled me over and put me back in line.
We can police ourselves if we believe
we can and it's the best thing for the game and all of us.
The rush to change bats/balls/rules
et cetera is not the way to go
and to me, is the sign of other agendas
and interests.
Nov. 27, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Thanks, I think.

I have no idea what the percentage might be, not sure anyone really does.

Do you realize that the insistence on live bats and balls is changing the way the game has always been played. When we have to start taking the middle out of the game we are fundamentally changing it, and not for the better. And when we feel the need to "police" this we are ruining the experience for pitchers who want to, can, actually work at it, and enjoy playing defense. What pitcher worth his salt doesn't want the opportunity to help himself and his team by making plays up the middle?
Nov. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're completely right
and this will shock you.
I wish they never changed the game at all
just like you do.
Yet, if changes are going to be made
for whatever reasons
that invites challenges and alternatives
that might be better.
How do you like them apples?
We agree, after all.
Nov. 27, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
But, we always wanted and want
needed and will need
a lively bat/ball combo.
This is intrinsic to the enjoyment
of our game and I've never talked with one player who's told me different.
I think that would make it
a majority opinion.
Nov. 27, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
if it is just 1 player total it is 1 to many.its the reason the ball specs are being lowered(altered bats),insurance companys don't care how many,all it has to be is one and one lawsuit lost for them to start hollering.and with that they will raise rates for assoc's,and we get to pay for it with higher tourney fee's.
Nov. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Robert, you said ball specs
are being lowered because
of altered bats.
We've all noticed and experienced the lowering of the specs over the years
and the battle in the market place
to keep the balls from being too lively
by competitors.
Now we want to know why this was necessary at all and how and why
this should apply to senior softball.
Remember, Terry was so moved
influenced to trot out a 52x275 ball
in a TOC game and again
a 5 team tourney in California
with the promise of more "trials"
to come.
First, the actual number of altered bats
per age group would have to be assessed
to justify the lowering in my opinion.
And the lack of any control efforts,
the best control efforts would increase
the number of cheaters 100 fold so as not to be taken advantage of
in a tournament.
So if proper controls for bat cheaters
then we could tell how many bona fide
die in the wool cheaters
we're talkin' about.
Again, peer pressure is the best way
to do this and monster stiff penalties
for abusers would together go a long
way to keep the game the way
it was meant to be played.
A team's bat could be confiscated
after a tournament and tested
professionally and have that team
and all it's members banned
from playing for 5 years
and all it's tournament wins
and all worlds removed from it's players for a meaningful period of time.

Again, I think that changing the game
gives into cheating instead of standing
up to and against it for what it is.
The righteous act of defiance would unite the faithful of the community
who are in the majority I would hazard
just like in any real society
(the good are more and stronger
than the bad)
in a fight for definition and control
of the sport.
Figure out way to reward
or give discounts to guys and teams
who voluntarily give way to measure
to check/control bats.
Talk about the value of a real
true champion over those who cheat
to secure one.
Again, a players association
could go a long way to exert the right
control over it's membership
to insure that
cheating is thwarted
not rewarded (sounds like Johnny Cochrane when I say it).
If it doesn't hit
you must acquit.
Somebody stop me.
Nov. 28, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
Einstein you have to be the most passionate poster-perhaps senior player on here regarding the specs of the bats and balls!!
Suppose for some odd reason ultra 2's and other similar bats where not allowed and the balls were dumbed down across the board what percentage of senior players would cease playing in your estimation?
Nov. 28, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
altered bats are not the only reason,just one.bats are to hot now a days for the present ball,and past one.that is another reason,insurance companys don't want us using them as then they are more suspectable to haveing to pay out on claims.its like when they pushed for the seat belt law back in the day.

why do you think ASA has thier test on bats so that they never reach 98 mph when broke in.it used to be that a bat could test at 98 mph before it was broke in.

usssa has had thier test changed so that the whole barrell is tested not just the center of the barrell,which can be different than the sweet spot of the bat.usssa also tests thier bats at tourney's with a compression tester and if they compress to easy they are not allowed to be used.

senior bats use the old 1.2 test,which can be easily got around.

its like the car industry,we want fast cars,the auto makers make them,we buy them,but we have speed limits,so whats the use.also if we get tickets/have accidents, our insurance goes up.

stick i doubt that many would stop playing,i know i wouldn't.i play ASA ball,and like it,how dumbed down for equipment can you get.
Nov. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Stick my good man.
You ask great questions.

I know in California if the balls
went south and
because the leadership of the community would take the initiative and walk off,
the majority would, too.
Gary Tryhorn, the hands down leader
of our community is/has been adament
about TD's using good balls
and using our rules.
If he didn't attend,
we wouldn't either.

Also, NCSSA sanctions and
doesn't run tournaments.
So that means that the TD would not get a tournament to run next time
and then you could say
the number would be closer to
100 per cent for non participation.

I think players are much to used
to rolling over for whatever admnins.
care to do.
Once the TD's learn we are well defined
and will exert specific influence
things will change dramatically
and fast.
We invest a ton of money
to make these tournaments work
and if/when we get organized
we'd have a lot of power.
Again, John, from Powerhouse,
would be a terrific leader
to begin an association of
players and I would support him
all the way.
He's gracious, smart, loves the players
and the game, understands the game,
and has balls,
manly, good ones, I'm sure.
What else would you need?




Nov. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Stick, I didn't answer the question.
I think over a 2 year period
more than half the senior players
today would stop playing and investing
in a game that doesn't feel or play well.
They would look for alternatives
like we have in NorCal
or quit playing after all.
And by the way, NorCal tournaments
are not restricted to teams in Californis.
Hmmmmmm.
Again, there IS lawn bowling,
isn't there.
You, we, whoever, must use and promote
a lively bat/ball combo
to ensure the joy and ongoing
investment in senior ball.
The movement right now
is to drive the bat/ball combo
below a level that is satisfyingly fun
and we should oppose it.

Nov. 28, 2009
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
I think that any conversation regarding the elimination of senior bats should include a buy back. Just like the police have buybacks for guns, those that would eliminate dangerous senior bats would buy back such bats. SSUSA, SPA and others allow the 1.20 bats, therefore manufacturers make and stock these bats. What do you say to them? Perhaps we could "Grandfather" the senior bats for 10 years. I have enough to last me that long.
Nov. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right on Sal.
We're being spun by guys trying to sell us stuff which is American and certainly not a crime but we need
to get involved and exert some control
to keep from having to scrap
all our equipment to date
to buy the new bats and balls
that will be taking over
and then in 2 years
the new bats and balls
that will take over
and have to be bought, again
and again and again.
It's about us daring to define
ourselves and what we really want
and need to enjoy our game.
Again, look at NCSSA and LVSSA
to see how it can be done
if we, the players,
want and get to be involved.
Nov. 28, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I could not care less what bat and ball combination is used. Gray Ultras with Titleists. Wood bats with kapok-centered Harwoods. Makes no difference to me AS LONG AS no one wants to start putting in rules that change the fundamental way the game was meant to be played.

No PPRs. No screens. No silly threats of "middle wars". Let pitchers do what good pitchers enjoy, fielding the middle.
Nov. 28, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
i think the movement is to make the game safer(by assoc's),with bat and ball specs,not to take the enjoyment from the game.with the assoc doing this the TD's have to comply or lose out for running them.
your tunnel vision has you seeing your enjoyment and not the rest of the players,there are some who like to play D,who like the strategy of hitting behind the runner,playing at 225-250' in the outfield and going to get that bloop hit,instead of sitting 10' from the fence and watching the bloop fall in for a double.it is real boring just to stand there and watch balls go over the fence constantly when they shouldn't be.lets bring back real game play and get rid of hr derby.
Nov. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Safer based on what, Robert?
That everyone is cheating
seniors included?
That's not my experience
and the experience of most seniors
I would wager.
Cheating happens when guys feel they're
being cheated by not being able to have fun hitting good balls with good bats.
It's their insurance against having
a crappy time or making a crappy showing or getting shown up and beat
by guys who ARE using cheater bats.

When you can't put pace on a ball
the average hitter struggles
because now balls that should have gotten through holes, don't and balls
that should have gone into gaps,
don't and balls that should have been difficult to get in front of
aren't.
So it's the average hitters that don't do well and not the dinkers or the strongest guys when hitting this "safer" ball.

A ball that doesn't go well when center
struck is counter intuitive
to natural eye-hand coordination.
Clatta and other great hitters
say hitting the center of the ball
maximizes the oppty of getting on base.
Hitting a ball that doesn't go well
when center struck, for me,
would be so dissatisfying and painful
that it would teach me, stroke by stroke
over time,
that hitting a ball is not in fact
fun or efficient
and in a very short time
I could see myself not wanting
to play anymore.

I think playing defense is no less
important with good balls and bats
as with lesser ones.
Defense still wins championships
and big games, irrespective of the caliber of balls.

The best time had by seniors this year
on the majority was LVSSA where good balls and good bats prevailed,
HR's were singles, no PPR
and 5 run innings.
There was no equalizer but there could have been without taking away from the fun.
Nov. 28, 2009
Stretch14
Men's 50
185 posts
We need good balls and bats.
Nov. 29, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
Guys I am not a home run hitter,I have played several tournaments this year,Pasadena,Baytown,Dallas,San Antonio,Georgetown,Boerne,Austin,Corpus,the World in Phoenix and then the Winter World in Las Vegas.In "all" of these tournaments,I have yet to hit,find or see "any" bad balls.....What is the big deal.everybody hits the same ball....enough said !
Nov. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
If you haven't gone to tournaments,
6, in the last couple of years
where the balls have been meaningfully
"less than" what you wanted and
expected than you are lucky but not one of the majority of players
in my opinion.
Bat and Ball wars, threats of law suits,
"talk" of safety concerns,
TD's 'not so hidden' agendas
and perceived "regulations"
coming or about to come down the road
have combined to form a Juggernaut
that's been "moving" us toward
restricted flight/impact balls
that are not only unnecessary
but will kill our game.

If we were organized we would be able
to exert direct force and influence
against any such a movement
to keep from being rolled over and
ending up, "somewhere else."

John, send me your address
so I can send you my contribution
to get a senior player
association off the ground.
Nov. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Further, let it be known,
that I will have nothing to do
with running or administrating
any such union of players
and will participate only
as a member in good standing.
I will, however, do all I can
to help bring one into being.
Nov. 29, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
einsteim..if you read my above message...All I saying is the balls you always complain about.we have not seen all year.Every ball we have hit in every tournament, has been a good,period !
Nov. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I did read it 6
and just read it again.
It looks like we don't agree.
The balls this year have varied
from tournament to tournament,
company to company and change
often with the temperature.
In local tournaments I've found this the case.
Worth, to Demarini, to Baden, to Stote
with different levels
of compression and core
intended or otherwise.
Most of us,
as I have said MANY times
have witnessed the poorer performance of balls happening steadily over
the last couple of years
almost across the board.
Nov. 29, 2009
#6
Men's 60
1183 posts
einstein,that's what's good about this board......I have not had a problem with any balls all year long,or any member of my team.You say the balls have varied from tournament to tournament.......not for us,how can that be?Are you playing in a lot of different tournaments than our team?World in Phoenix,no problem,Winter World in Vegas, NO PROBLEM.Go figure.
Nov. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

If the ball is what causes bat cheating why were they doing it in the 70's and 80's when we were hitting blue dots, red dots, t-4000, and steele balls? This is why I for one diagree with your statements. Looking forward to your answer.
Nov. 29, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
JOE YOUR POST,MY ANSWERS IN CAPS SO TO BE SEEN.

Nov. 28, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
1566 posts
Safer based on what, Robert?
That everyone is cheating
seniors included?
That's not my experience
and the experience of most seniors
I would wager.

WELL JOE WHAT WOULD THE PROBLEM BE WITH USING ASA BAT SPECS THAN,IF SENIORS DON'T CHEAT.
Cheating happens when guys feel they're
being cheated by not being able to have fun hitting good balls with good bats.

NO CHEATING STARTS WHEN LESS TALENTED PLAYERS TRY TO GET AN EDGE,DOESN'T MATTER WHAT ASSOC YOU PLAY IN.

It's their insurance against having
a crappy time or making a crappy showing or getting shown up and beat
by guys who ARE using cheater bats.

IF THAT IS THEIR EXCUSE TO PLAY THAN THAT IS A POOR ONE.

When you can't put pace on a ball
the average hitter struggles
because now balls that should have gotten through holes, don't and balls
that should have gone into gaps,
don't and balls that should have been difficult to get in front of
aren't.

WHERE IS IT THAT THE AVG PLAYER SHOULD BE HITTING HR'S OR BANGING THE BALL OFF THE FENCE TO BEGIN WITH,OR SCARING A DEFENSIVE PLAYER FROM TRYING TO FIELD A HIT BALL,NONE.AN AVG PLAYER SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN AN ADVANTAGE WITH HOT EQUIPMENT.IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE BETTER PLAYER WHO DO THE WORK TO MAKE THEMSELVES BETTER THAN THE REST

So it's the average hitters that don't do well and not the dinkers or the strongest guys when hitting this "safer" ball.

OH WELL,THEY NEED TO WORK ON THIER GAME THAN,TO MAKE THEMSELEVES BETTER.THEY SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DO IT WITH A BAT OR BALL.ITS CALLED WORKING ON YOUR GAME,BP,FIELDING PRACTICE,ETC.

A ball that doesn't go well when center
struck is counter intuitive
to natural eye-hand coordination.
Clatta and other great hitters
say hitting the center of the ball
maximizes the oppty of getting on base.

A CENTER STRUCK BALL IS GONNA BE A KNUCKLEBALL(AND UNLESS YOU ARE A TRUE HR HITTER THESE WILL NOT GO OUT),HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD THIS.IF YOU WANT CARRY,YOU NEED TO HIT JUST BELOW CENTER TO GET BACKSPIN.IF YOU GO JUST ABOVE CENTER YOU GET THOSE TOP SPIN CRAZY BALLS.

Hitting a ball that doesn't go well
when center struck, for me,
would be so dissatisfying and painful
that it would teach me, stroke by stroke
over time,
that hitting a ball is not in fact
fun or efficient
and in a very short time
I could see myself not wanting
to play anymore.

OH WELL

I think playing defense is no less
important with good balls and bats
as with lesser ones.
Defense still wins championships
and big games, irrespective of the caliber of balls.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE IS NONE WITH HOT EQUIPMENT,UNLESS IT IS HIT STRAIGHT AT SOMEONE,AND THEN THE FIELDER BETTER BE CAREFUL IT DOESN'T TAKE A BAD BOUNCE AND GET SERIOUSLY INJURED.THERE IS NO MORE GOING INTO THE HOLE BY THE SS,OR AN OUTFIELDER RUNNING ONE DOWN.

The best time had by seniors this year
on the majority was LVSSA where good balls and good bats prevailed,
HR's were singles, no PPR
and 5 run innings.
There was no equalizer but there could have been without taking away from the fun.

I THINK WE CAN STILL HAVE FUN WITH ASA SPEC EQUIPMENT,WE DON'T NEED THE DANGEROUS HOT STUFF.
Nov. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Butch.
I'm curious.
How did guys cheat with bats
in the 70's and 80's
before double walls and composites?

Just like with speeding on a freeway.
If you post a speed limit
you have to enforce it or it's meaningless.
If we have bat standards
then we have to get up the courage
and caring to bust the cheaters.
It doesn't matter what era they come from for when cheating is not busted or moved against it makes the guys who don't cheat, suckers,
This situation is exacerbated
by us and our lack of rule enforcement
or human error
and not human nature.

It takes wanting to take a long hard look at cheating to come up with
what and who's driving it instead of
saying we're all cheaters which is not true and changing the game for everyone
which is unfair, uncalled for
and counterproductive in the long run.
Nov. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,

As I mentioned before When aluminum bats first came out there were no thin handled bats so players and even some managers took them to machine shops and had the handles turned down. Some of the players, used 35" and 36" bat length when 34" was legal limit. Later they started using things to end load the bat such as tennis balls.

So now why do you think they did it? I agree it doesnt matter why they did it but it sure wasnt because of the
philosphy of shitty balls so that is one excuse you can eliminate from your posts.

They did it to hit the ball harder and hit home runs period. Sound familiar.

Joe I'm assuming you didn't play much major ball when you were younger with that question. I do not know of any cheaters, would not accuse any one of cheating in senior ball. If any one does they will be discovered and what ever they get they deserve.

It takes wanting to take a long hard look at ego maniacism and put it in its proper place. Just my thoughts
Nov. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Also there was life before composites and double walls. LOL :)
Nov. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
As no one truly wants to be bad
Butch, and
no one really wants to cheat.
A true cheater would be ostracized
or punished by any real community.
People cheat for a reason
and it usually is because they think
others are cheating and they don't want to get punked.
The key is taking a deep breath
and rolling up our sleeves
and be willing to do whatever we can and is reasonable to stop/catch
cheaters just like speeders
on a freeway.
You don't keep making cars safer
and safer until they turn into
bubble tanks to deal with cheaters.
We don't change our whole game
and sacrifice the rightful enjoyment
of others to deal with cheaters.
It's not right, doesn't work
and in terms of senior softball
will back fire as more players
leave the game.

Nov. 29, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Joe,
I guess I have more faith in people because most of the people I know would not go out and shave their bat because they just played someone that beat them and they thought just because 8 of the 10 guys used the same bat or when a home run was needed they went to their bag and got a different bat out the bat may have been shaved.
If someone has that way of thinking and he gets his bat shaved he is a cheater and knows he is a cheater
If a guys hits a ball 450' and the other person only hits it 350' and he believes the other guy is using a shaved bat and goes and gets his bat shaved he is a cheater. In both examples they wanted to cheat because the bat didn't shave its self.
Once again get rid of the ego maniacs that would do any thing to win or hit the ball the farthest no matter who or what it may damage.
Joe my friend this is just softball. There are other aspects that are more important. Anyone that knows me will tell you I love to win as much as anyone but the friends we make and the times after and during the game is what we will have to remember long after softball is over.
I understand what you are saying but with the attitute I will not be punked under any circumstances doesnt belong in our game of softball.
So in my heart of hearts I believe there is very few cheaters in our game today.
Nov. 29, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, Butch.
I liked our conversation.
We need to move against bat cheaters
it will straighten everything out.
And I believe with you
that after some situational remedies
there are and will remain very few cheaters in our game
not enough to change bat/ball standards
and deprive the rest of us
of enjoying the game we love to play.
Nov. 30, 2009
Johnny Hose
Men's 50
71 posts
Joe,
Thanks for the promo, you're killin me.
On your discussion, I would like to add my Radical thoughts.
I am so against altered bats that I get really worked up about it. I think everyone should be held responsible for his/her actions... whereever. I hit a pitcher in league play from my batted ball into his eye orbit. It first hit his glove extended out above his head, then glanced to his face. Needless to say, he had major surgery the next day. Two weeks later, he called the sports office to find out what bat I had used.
I think that he was OK in asking, but two weeks late. I think if any question of my using an altered bat was raised it should be at the time of the incident. I would love to see umpires remove any doubt by comfiscating both the BAT and the BALL at the time of the injury. This would place the burden of the injury and the costs accrued on that individual that chooses to alter the equipment, including the ball manufacturer that chooses to juice up the balls. Also, I have in my posession a formula that was acquired on the internet, anyone can get it. I had it in my mind that I was going to catch one of these bats being used. It is almsost impossible to do without destroying the bat. In fact, the lable manufacturer for some of the MAJOR bat companies run thousands more lables than will be sold to the bat companies, just for internet sales to altered bat producers and/or anyone else that want to change the name on their bat.
In summation, You and I love the game, along with most of the people on this board. With healthy thoughts and discussions, the cheaters know we're on to them. Let it be known and just maybe we will steer someone into doing the right thing.
Have a great holiday, ya all.
Nov. 30, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey John.
John for president.
How's that for a promo
and tell me where to send my 20 bucks
so we can have some real representation.
Thanks, again, John for the oppty
to play in Vegas.
Nov. 30, 2009
Johnny Hose
Men's 50
71 posts
Joe,
Not just me, Burbank too.
Had a great time.
As far as the PA... it's too early and I try not to use this message board to promo it, as you can tell. I thank you for the support, but still need a feasability study with web site $ and other legalities like non profit corp and such. Should know by January.
Talk wit ya soon.
Nov. 30, 2009
Just -a-base Hitter
Men's 50
12 posts
There is no room for cheaters in senior softball.We are using the hot bats, best balls and if you need to cheat in senior softball something must be really wrong.The fence is still 300ft.
Dec. 2, 2009
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Just a Base Hitter,
There is no room for cheaters period. If they cheat at our game they will cheat at life in general.
IMO, we need to police the cheaters ourselves, if we know a team mate has a alter bat or even worse is using an enhancing substance we should address it from within. If the boot is necessary, so be it.
Dec. 2, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
One way to help curb cheating is have a bat compression machine on site and require every player to go thru a bat check before their first game. Also if a guy drills a pitcher the bat should be taken out and inspected by the director(s). If players know this going in they may think twice about cheater bats.
Dec. 2, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
stick, that is a horrible idea on so many levels.

One, why are pitchers valued anymore than any other position.

Two, at what point is it the fault of the fielder for getting hit? Didn't they have a glove? Aren't they the one who missed the ball?

Three, are you paying for the compression machine? I would not pay higher fees for one.

Four, only cheaters hit balls hard?

Sorry, but that just wasn't very well thought out.
Dec. 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Gary,
Slow down on the horrible.
You might not be aware that a word like that and saying his idea wasn't very well thought out can trigger a personal
reaction of self defense.
I don't prefer Sticks remedy
but I like his idea and that he's
thinking and contributing
to all of us.
I know you mean well, Gary
and that you're a good person
and want to help out.
I'm just trying to help out, too.
Dec. 2, 2009
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Fine. I wasn't trying to say stick is horrible, but I just don't like the idea.

As I have said, I don't care what equipment is used though you know I don't get why seniors need to have special bats. I just don't want to see anymore rule changes to accommodate them.
Dec. 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I would totally agree with you
Gary except for 2 reasons.
We've already bought the bats
and don't want to shell out new/more
money for different/new ones.
And second,
if they kept the balls good and lively
like the old Blue dots which were probably hotter than their specs
we could use any bat.
Ever hit a really good
old blue dot level ball
with a maple or hot wooden bat.
Goes like a bullet.
I think Gary,
there's a movement,
witting and unwitting,
to take the level of liveliness
in our bat/ball combo down below
where it's fun and enjoyable
for insufficient reasons.
Lively bat/ball combo forever
I always say.
Happy Holidays to you both,
Gary and Stick.
Dec. 2, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
Dirty, allow me to address your questions, which are all fair and legit. This is strictly from what I understand of the USSSA mind set:
1)I'm not certain if they value pitchers any more than other infielders because I saw a third baseman foolishly playing inside the bag and get drilled right in the chin. The ump took the bat away.
2)Yes the fielder has a glove & most times it's their fault they miss it.
3)Where we're at USSSA has paid for it
4)No
Let me illustrate an example of what this can do. In the fall I was umping a pretty high level house league game--mostly B and A players gettng ready for their world tourneys. A batter drilled this pitcher right in the kneecap. He was done for the night and as it turned out, the year. By our rule, I took the bat and gave it to my UIC for inspection. The process took two weeks because he sent it out of town to be tested. The bat passed the test so it was fine. In the interim not only the player but the whole league was wondering what was going to happen. It seemed as if everyone was questioning me about it. This is the idea, put it players minds that we have a process to get rid of cheaters. I will concede it has flaws and is not perfect but it's a step in the right direction. Since we'll have a machine on site next year for testing, the process won't be as time consuming.
Dec. 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Way to go Stick.
I have questions about the "machine"
but I praise and support you guys
doing something to deal with cheaters
rather than changing the game
for everyone.
Way to go, Bro.
Keep us posted on its progress.
Dec. 3, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
Will do Einstein.
BTW, do you know the difference between a car and a golf club?
Dec. 3, 2009
Paco13
364 posts
Stick, letís assume that the bat was shaved...whatever an altered bat. Now what happens to the player and perhaps the team gets suspended for a year or life...depending on the Asn. Nothing else the injured player will have a very difficult time getting any money from the hitter...I spoke with a good friend of mine (lawyer) and according to him...it is very difficult case to prove, because there is no intent to hurt somebody, the intent of the hitter is to hit the ball 500'. Without intent there is no case. (a regular bat can cause the same damage as in UR case) This is a very interesting issue; it will most likely be a landmark case that could go all the way to Supreme Court. That it is even if the hurt player was to die. The machine does not prove anything...a well broken in bat could have lost enough weight to be considered altered. I believe Trump spoke about this previously. I do also ump, and I personally do not remove a bat everybody that somebody hits a pitcher or somebody gets hurt with hit ball. You as the ump can not take somebodyís property without a warrant; however, you can ask for the bat and is up to the player to voluntarily give it to you. If he gives U the bat a proper chain of custody must be maintained through out the process once that chain is broken there goes the case. In general is not as simple as you guys might think. JMO
Dec. 3, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
Interesting points Paco13. In this case if the bat was found to be altered or shaved then the game is forfeited, if it's a tourney the team is booted out,if it's a league the team loses the game, I believe the manager is suspended for 1 year and the player is suspended for I believe 2 years for all USSSA sanctioned events. Your correct, it would be a tough case if the injured player filed lawsuit for the cost of injuries. But there are some pretty good slip and fall lawyers out there (I used to work for one) who could, if they choose to, make a go of it. That being said the company that makes the bat could press charges against the offending player. I do know easton has a clause that specifies if any of their bats are physically altered, shaved or tampered with they reserve the right to pursue legal action against the offending parties involved.
All the machine does is measure compression which the lower limit allowable in USSSA is 200 lbs. If a bat tests at 190 or even as low as 180 it's likely not altered or shaved & simply deemed illegal and not allowed--nothing happens to the player. Most likely it's a bat that has a lot of swings on it and well broken in. There was a player who drilled a pitcher in a local USSSA tourney and had his bat taken away. It tested at 140. In that case it raised a lot of red flags & the association cut the bat open and found it was completely shaved on the inside. He's gone for two years.
When you say umps cannot remove bats without a warrant you are technically correct. But I will tell you that is our house rule that we've adapted in our leagues and tournaments, it's not a national rule. Most players know that. Don't forget if the opposing team wants to protest a bat the ump can remove it from play and examine it and make determinations whether it warrants testing or not.
Dec. 3, 2009
Paco13
364 posts
Stick, Completely agree with U. Another very interesting point the protest usually cost money...not refundable...that is why there are not as many protests. Another point if the bat is open it could be ruined or not...who pays for it especially if it not altered...TD are not as willing to do it just because of the cost. Bottom line cheating should not be allowed, but cheaters will be cheaters as bad as it sounds is part of the game and we have to live with it. I truly hope our seniors that used to cheat do not do it anymore...
Dec. 3, 2009
tattooball
605 posts
If you ues the compression machine on a senior bat not 1 will pass after 25 swings. Every bat wether it was stock or altered would not pass.
Dec. 3, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
hey trumpball ,would you know where about a shaved bat would test at.
by the way where do the senior bats start at.
someone else also said that the big boys go past the GTG mark in about 50-75 swings on their u-trip bats that are stock.
about the senior bats testing no good after 25 hits mmm.
they had some BS at the usssa tourney(major's) this yr,that don d done to the team there(can't remember which one)that was playing his son's team,by useing the bat test during the game after a hr,it came back below specs(stock bat by the way)and he suspended the player for the rest of the tourney,so the team packed up and left.i had thought the bats were supposed to be tested before start of the tourney and be GTG for the rest of that tourney.he didn't test before hand.
Dec. 4, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
Correct Paco13. Different leagues and tournaments have differing fees. It used to be approx $300 (the cost of a bat) because if it was cut open and found to be OK then that money would go to the purchase of a new bat. If the bat was found to be altered I'm not sure if the fee was returned or not. Before the machine and our rule protesting bats didn't happen too often.
Dec. 4, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
Good point trumpball. I should have specified that I was referring to non-senior bats in this discussion. Obviously the criteria for determining an acceptable compression level on senior bats would be different. I'm not certain what that would be.
Dec. 4, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
stick8,

If you take the players bat and it takes 2 or 3 weeks to get results what is that player supposed to do for a bat?

Does he shell out another $200 and then finds out bat was legit does the league or tourney director reimburse him?

What if he can't afford a new bat when he has done nothing illegal? Does he have to quit playing or borrow someone elses bat which will lessen the life of his friends bat?


Just some thoughts.
Dec. 4, 2009
tattooball
605 posts
USSSA uses 1.20 bats, these bats are tested across the entire barrel, They also get tested after they are broken in to be certified. A well broken in USSSA is not allowed in play once it goes below 220 comp. Many stock bats reach 170 range before they break. These are completly stock bats that have been hit often. many get lower than that.

Shaved bats can get as low as 90. If the coralation between 1.20 and compression is 220 than you can see that bats break in way beyond the 1.20 bpf.

senior bats start around 260-270 but they only have to pass the test on one spot of the barrel. They are also not tested after any swings,0,nada. Senior bats very quickly get to a compression of 170, they also get to below 125,many below 110. So you think you are using a 1.20 bat because the label says it is but in reality they are well above 1.25 and many getting over 1.30.

Happy Holidays
Dec. 4, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
thanks kevin,i was wondering how lo they(senior and shaved bats)could get,i'm still a little skeptical about this test,i think it should be a touch lower,190 maybe.
Dec. 5, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
Butch17, fair and legit questions.
1)It may appear insensitive but what a player does for a bat while waiting 2 or 3 weeks is not our concern.
2)He certainly can buy another bat. If the protested bat passes the test he gets it back. He's not reimbursed for any bat he may have purchased in the interim.
3)Presuming your referring to the 2-3 week waiting period for the bat to be tested it's not conclusive that he did or didn't do anything illegal. If he can't afford a new bat that is not our concern. If he doesn't own a back up bat he would have to borrow someone elses bat. In the unlikely event he can't get anyone to loan him a bat I suppose he's SOL.
Dec. 5, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Thanks stick8,

If that is the case you need tester on site. You worked for one of those lawyers that may file suit for keeping a guy from playing because you have detained his equipment. lol
Dec. 6, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
Butch17, we will have a tester on site starting next year which I beleive USSSA has paid for. In fact it's being considered to have all players be required to have their bats checked before they play--like they used to do before world tournaments. Like anything that's introduced, I'm sure they'll be glitches & shortcomings in how this works but the main purpose is to put it players minds that we're taking extra steps to get rid of loaded bats and bat cheaters.
BTW, the questions you asked above can also apply to someone who simply breaks, dents or cracks their bat.
Dec. 6, 2009
butch17
Men's 55
415 posts
Stick8

There is a small difference between breaking denting or cracking ones own bat or giving it up to a stanger or organization. If someone uses my bat and cracks, dents, or breaks it they buy me a new one.

Dec. 6, 2009
LP
281 posts
about the balls here in texas we hit the trump 44--375 its a good all around ball, used it in vegas and phoenix. so i dont see or have a problem with SSUSA'S ball choice.
then theres the bat problem you all bring up. a cheater will get caught eventually then he should be done with senior ball. if someone is a cheater and even if his team wins its not a real victory. i know some guys have to boost there ego's but it would be a hollow win, because there would be no pride, or your own ability for a win .
Dec. 6, 2009
stick8
1275 posts
That's true Butch17. I should have referenced it to refer to the questions you asked -- "what if he can't afford a new bat and has done nothing illegal"? and "does he have to quit playing or borrow a friends bat that will lessen the life of his friends bat?"
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