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Online now: 1 member: typhoons3; 14 anonymousDiscussion: Tournament winnings......????????
| Posted | Discussion |
| Feb. 25 elpbadboys 9 posts | It really is sad when you travel across two states....have to stay 2 or more nights in a hotel...have to pay $350.00 for entering these so-called "sanctioned" tournaments win or even come in 2nd place and recieve NOTHING....we just played in the Phoenix Gold Glove "sanctioned" Tournament...came in 2nd place and we have nothing to show. The 1st place team got maybe T-shirts ( probably the ones they we selling )and nothing more. Then Senior Softball wonders why no teams are entering these tournys. Senior Softball is getting alittle too greedy with tournament fees and giving nothing in return. I understand if alot of teams won't enter and you cannot give away alot of prizes to the winners, but nothing to 2nd place....where does my $350.00 go to? Just something for you all to think about...... |
| Feb. 25 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | Put one or more parts of that into a question form & i'll add it the poll. Chances are though, it would be up to the TD, and not the assn they affiliate through... still good point(s). I've seen these gives as awards; socks, watches,T's, bags, bat bags, hats, wind breakers, nothing & some others in the many tournament put on by the different ones out there. Some list the awards in flyers or postings and some its a surprise. |
| Feb. 25 LP 317 posts | we paid and played in the winter world in vegas, $450.00 entry won our division and only thing we go, was to buy our own rings nothing else to even say we were there. i know there is alot of expense in these tournaments but we all want to come earn something at these events. |
| Feb. 25 ShaneV Men's 55 393 posts | For $450 you could buy great shirts and have whatever you want screened like "Champion Message Board Complainer". For $450 you could put down a deposit on a premier ball park AND buy some advertising and take phone calls and emails for 3 months, at work, in your car, in bed, at dinner, arrange umpires, purchase great awards for every team and player, purchase balls, schedule games and brackets, reschedule games and brackets when teams drop or add at the last minute. And when you're all done, total up your $1.50 per hour wages and never do it again. Try it and see how it goes. If you're lucky enough to know somebody who would donate some cool awards, you might make $2.50 per hour! I'll grant that Sacramento seems to charge more than we locals but we all have to consider they have an office and a national organization to run. A portion of our player and team annual fees supports the office but I'm guessing a portion of the tournament fees is necessary to support the office and salaries and travel and web site and publications and rule books and... It's a business, and they are not a monopoly and plenty of us understand that and buy the product and are very happy with what we get. Beyond anything else, I am most happy that teams that do well enough in our division and age category are eventually re-rated, guaranteeing that if we improve we will have a chance to win. I'll grant you that some of the local tournament directors may insist on making more for their efforts. It's a free country and they are the one accepting all the risk and losing their own $ if teams don't show. Just my little rant for today... ShaneV |
| Feb. 25 ShaneV Men's 55 393 posts | And another thing... Being re-rated is tough sometimes for a team. It's also an honor to be told you are too good to continue playing in a classification. And every time a single team is re-rated, the potential of every other team in that classification is being protected! The first 10 years I played slowpitch, there were no ratings, and the teams I played on seldom had any real chance to win. When (unmentioned organizations) began rating teams, suddenly the world changed! I'm done... ShaneV |
| Feb. 26 elpbadboys 9 posts | I never said that running a tournament was easy....I know how hard it is to run a tourny..getting calls...emails..dropping, adding teams, etc,etc...but if you or anyone else volunteers...gets paid...or whatever....that's your JOB....not mine...you can't complain about what you or anyone else agreed to do...I sympathize with you ,but that doesn't answer where does our money go when various teams pay between $350 upwards to play and compete but get nothing for this kind of effort....t shirts are NOT expensive, plaques are even less...hats...come on we've all played enough years to know that something is wrong with the prizes given or should I say NOT given in these tournaments...just my rant for the day...God Bless All..... |
| Feb. 26 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts | ShaneV, I agree with your posts. Remember the Associations must make a profit. They do not do this for our benefit without a reward. Don't forget renting fields, maintaining fields, insurance costs, home office staff and operating costs. Now they also receive other revenue so I am not saying we should pass the hat around but cut them some slack. Rewards for second place? Go kiss your sister. |
| Feb. 26 titanhd Men's 60 640 posts | Bob 50.That's bit harsh. Don't forget about our "operating costs" ,it's costs us to go play as well.I think to attend tourney and pay all of "OUR" expenses we would in some form deserve more than a just a "Thanks for coming" and a handshake.It cuts both ways. |
| Feb. 26 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts | titanhd, Finishing second in a regional tournament is a nice accomplishment but I'm not aware of any associations that would present awards for a regional second place finish. However, if you were a finalist in a National then you will receive recognition and some award for that accomplishment. In additional a few of your players would be named to the All Amercian or All Tournament team but I think you know this. |
| Feb. 26 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | I always thought we were playing because we love the game. Not for some insignifigant prize or gift. Our prize is the win if we are lucky enough to earn it. We play to be called Champions, second place is nothing more then 1st loser. |
| Feb. 26 birdie Men's 70 802 posts | E4/E6, I would like to second that statement. Along time ago I played with a guy who would put his second place award in the trash. I had a lot of respect for him. We came in second at the TOC. It was good accomplishment but a big empty feeling inside. Thanks Harry |
| Feb. 26 SoCal'er 76 posts | Due you remember when you started in Senior softball ? I was told '5 game guarantee', I thought, wow! that's great. The young guys in our area pay that much for double elimination tourney's. My guess is if you wanted a 2 game guarantee, you'd get awards. Most players want to play more games instead of awards. We also get longer games than than they do. When they charge $450 + there making money. |
| Feb. 26 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | It seems, at times, we all forget SSUSA and all the rest are businesses. Step in the door to my business and guess what, I expect to make money for the work I do for you. As I recall its "What the market will bare" and as it stands now, the market, we players, choose to bare. I once asked this question on this site "Where can we go and get the same amount of entertainment doing something we enjoy so much for so little money." If you break down the tourney fee by the number of players on your team, then by the number of games played, it is almost embarrassing how little we pay to play. |
| Feb. 26 garyheifner 651 posts | I was a football coach and athletic director for 30 years. There are award catalogs out there that you can get very nice looking medals with ribbons for about $1 to $2 each. You can award a variety of medals for a very low cost. Most of the guys who play on the tour are not ring whores (you know, the guys who steal the best players from a variety of teams) but rather plain Joes who wouldn't mind passing on some awards to their grand children. A medal or ribbon for doing well in a tourney is not too much to ask. |
| Feb. 27 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | LP.....is not exactly correct.We did get a Miken Travel bag,I played on the same team with him. But I will agree with him, there we no Championship T-shirts , no pictures of anykind.Nothing to show you won the Winter World In Vegas ! It was like the tournament is over......GO HOME ! Not what I would expect from SSUSA AND ALL THE PLAYERS TRAVELING TO PLAY IN A "SO CALLED" WORLD TOURNAMENT ! |
| Feb. 27 salio2k Men's 60 547 posts | My team also received a travel bag, which I have used several times. We only had to beat another team 2 out of 3 for the championship. Nothing to brag about, so I didn't need a t-shirt. The second place winners recei ved hats. I am glad that they didn't give out medals like the senior olympics give out. Our team mom took pictures before handing out the orange slices. |
| Feb. 27 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts | garyheifner, Please expand on your comments because I'm not quite sure about the point you are making. Specifically "who play on the tour", "ring whores". "guys who steal the best players" (who owns them?) |
| Feb. 27 elpbadboys 9 posts | You all don't get the point....We go to "local" Senior Softball Tournaments...not "Qualifiers"...pay far less than those "qualifiers" ( between $200 to $250 per tournament)...good tournaments being run by local Senior Softball organizations and no matter how many teams show up 1st place usually get T-shirts and a plaque or trophy...2nd place t-shirts and caps and sometimes a plaque....now mind you these tournaments are being run by local senior softball leagues or players....now how can they "afford" to give prizes...while Senior Softball in Sacramento has these "Qualifiers" where upwards of $350 is being charged to teams entering....plus you have to register your team ($25) anually....pay around $15 per year per player to play in these events...(wonder how many players are worldwide.....)and yet no prizes?? think about it.....of course we play for the love of the game...but should we have to "Pay" for our love of the game.....this matter is a 2 way street...we as players are giving ....senior softball are receiving our monies, but not giving us anything in return...something is wrong with theis picture....maybe when a "qualifier" is taking our entry fee money they should post what the prizes are gonna be.....if no prizes are being given then we should have the option of withdrawing with no penalty and taking our money elsewhere....something to think about as well |
| Feb. 27 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | E4/E6 if i come into your shop with money i expect something in return tho,regardless of your price you charge.ss-usa seems to think a hat or a $5 t-shirt is good,when we can pay upwards to $50 per tourney just for the fee per person,not much in return.like someone else has said they also charge a team registration fee and a player fee.also that is not to count the money we have to spend for travel and food and rooms.ss-usa rooms are not the best priced i can tell you that. |
| Feb. 27 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts | I'm not going to debate the difference between local tournaments with volunteers and possibly volunteer umpires compared to SSUSA tournaments. All I can tell you is that in my mind, having played both over the past 12 years, there's a big difference in favor of SSUSA. The best part of being in the USA is that you have choices. There are other associations and you also you have your local tournaments. You make the choice. But if you are going into the SSUSA "store" ask about the merchandise before you buy it. If second place medals are important and they don't offer them take your business elsewhere. They decisde on the product and you have the choice to spend your money on SSUSA or take it elsewhere. There's a reason why their tournaments are normally the largest. |
| Feb. 27 Gary Heifner 248 posts | Bob-The purpose of the thread is that there are many teams out there that are just a bunch of guys, many have no chance of ever winning a ring, but when they do well in a qualifer, would like a small award of some type. It doesn,t have to be of great value, but something. Ring Whores- those teams who are only after RINGS. They have NO loyalty to their players and will drop friends that they have played with for years if they can talk top players from other teams into joining them. As you know, this pretty much destroyed the great Chicago Classic Organiztion. I have heard dozens of conversation at tournies as managers talk about who they want to try and pick up and who they will drop. Of those great Classics teams mine is the only one of two left. We are about 90 percent in tack from 6 years ago and our loyalty has produced a bunch of National and World titles even though our total talent hasn't matched many of our opponents. TDs, just find some type of award for the top teams at your tournies. |
| Feb. 27 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts | Gary, specifically to your wins--congratulations. I believe team chemistry is an important ingredient to win titles consistently. As to your opinion on why the Chicago Classics broke up I disagree. As a former member I have first hand knowledge of the reasons this occurred. It was not because players were drawn by other teams. It was because they were driven away by the politics and favored players who coached teams and made poor decisions. Those coaches were allowed to take players to the detriment of other teams in the orgainization. But the main reason they were driven away was how sponsor fees brought in by players from one team were required to share with all six teams. Do I regret the years I played with the Chicago Classics--definitely not. Did it ever dawn on you that teams are not drawn to win rings but have a strong desire and principal goal to win National Championships. You make it sound like a bad thing. My teammates and I also believe in playing the best competition in the country. We play at a high level and welcome competition from any 55's team in the country. We have played Major Plus for three years and would not consider playing down to win a ring or a National Championship when we feel we need to play Major Plus. Does that make me a "ring whore?" You tell me. |
| Feb. 28 elpbadboys 9 posts | Compare a local event to a SSUSA and there's a big difference.....come on other than the fields maybe being in better shape the officialsare the same...umpires the same...I don't know what local tournaments you might play in but around here they're not bad at all. Went to a local event last yr in a small town had over 14 teams in our brackett ( 50 AA ) prizes were good. 1st yr event....went last week to the Gold Glove "qualifier" there wasn't 12 teams in the 4 categories ( 50AA,50AAA,55AA,55AAA )so maybe where you come from the SSUSA events are bigger, but not down here....in 2005 we won the Gold Glove ...got embroidered top of the line pullover type jackets plus a plaque plus the 2nd place team got t shirts and a cap plus their plaque...there were teams from Chicago,Cali, Utah, Texas, N.M. Colorado....this yr 3 teams from El Paso, 1 from N.M., 1 from Utah...and the rest locals total teams entered was 12.....in the above mentioned categories for a SSUSA "qualifier"...don't tell me nothing's wrong ..teams are getting tired of playing and not getting anything to show for it...we play for fun in our leagues... |
| Feb. 28 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | elpbadboys, You don't mention where your from or where you play local, but I mostly agree with you. One thing I do not understand about SSUSA is they could at least take pictures of the winning and maybe the second place team,in Vegas all they mostly did was want us to get the hell out of there. The costs for us 17 players at about $1200-$1500 each.......Miken travel bag(which was nice) about $15-$20 each and a First place trophy $40.00. I live in Spicewood just outside of Austin and I have put on several tournaments.I give away awards for 1st-4th place.Also, MVP AND GOLDEN GLOVE TO EVERY TEAM.First and second place team individual awards(ranging from bat bags to shoes for (EVERY PLAYER).third place "real nice caps" and Fourth place "real nice t-shirts". Sold food and drink there as well. Paid umpires !I furnished all the balls !I hustled every source and sponsor I knew from Sporting good companies, ball companies, my screen man, food and drink companies, trophy companies and got ALL of the things I needed donated.My team did all the field prep (raked and water the fields after every game) We sent out flyers and drew a lot of teams.( this was not only senior ball) I charged $400.00 per team and had to shut it off at 20 teams. After I paid for "everything", my team cleared over $3000.00 for this one tournament. YOU GIVE AWAY GOOD AWARDS, AND THEY WILL COME.I have proved it !!Oh, and I paid for the fields as well. |
| Feb. 28 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Dog, I see where you are coming from. However SSUSA, SPA, ASA, NCSSA, SCSSA, and all other associations, even the PTA, all provide a service. We can try to compare organizing a local tourney near our homes to what a national organization puts together, but it is a far cry from what they actually have to do. I dont want to sound like I am defending anyone, but until something comes along thats better I will do just that. #6, how about coming to So Cal and putting on an event for our area, we can always use more local tournaments. |
| March 1 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | E,all i'm saying is"we put in a lot of money toward these tourneys(whether a local or national)and get very little in return,might as well as just stay home and play some pick up games.i've played in the east/west game 3 times and had the privilege of winning it twice,one time we got bat bags(and nothing i would use or buy anytime soon) that were being sold at the t-shirt stand,nothing on them to designate that we had won the national title game.the other yr we won we got a decent pullover.the yr we lost in,we got a tanel or miken hat with nothing denoting us playing in the game.so if ss-usa is gonna charge so much for their tourney they should at least give us player a little more in return. the prol i see is they are close to being a monopoly(being the big boys in town)and could care less about the player/prize returns.thank you for coming now leave. |
| March 1 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts | elpbadboys, Maybe I don't have all the facts and I am wrong. My question is "Did you start this thread because there were no awards for your second place finish in a three team bracket?" |
| March 1 lemons Men's 65 323 posts | Mad dog, You're absolutely correct about "thank you for coming, now leave. We were fortunate to win The Northern Championships and there was absolutely nothing on site for us except the chance to buy memoribilia. Later we got Miken travel bags and re-rated even though this was the first tournament we ever won. |
| March 1 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Bob, that is hilarious. And a GREAT question. |
| March 2 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | SSUSA Staff: When will each player receive his or her award for participation in every tournament they play in? Sounds a little like current day little league, where every kid is guaranteed playing time and receives a trophy at the end of the season. On those rare occasions when the team I play on wins a tournament, the most gratifing part is the Championship, there isnt any award that could be give out that compares with that feeling. Money will be spent and gone, a trophy will get thrown in the garage, never to be seen again. Bags, hats and shirts will wear out or be tossed out. However that feeling and that win, can never be taken away. I dont know about anyone else, but for me thats plenty. |
| March 2 elpbadboys 9 posts | Bob50 you all are missing the point I'm trying to make. We won the Gold Glove 5 yrs ago and got good prizes from 1st place thru 3rd place.....the went and won the Tucson Showdown and the same prizes 1st -3rd. Now they give t-shirts and nothing else , why? If nothing was given to anyone except 1st place then so be it.....but that wasn't the case before.....I'm just asking WHY? .....and 5 yrs ago we paid LESS than now.... |
| March 2 elpbadboys 9 posts | #6 we're from El Paso, would love to get and invite to your tournamnet....we've gone to the Boerne tourny the last 2 yr and will probably go to the Texas State championships in Dallas trying to get away from phx and tucson tournys just to play different teams |
| March 2 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts | elpbadboys, This will be my last post since I think we have walked around this dead horse and are now just kicking it. I don't know for sure--you do, whether there were more than 3 teams in the bracket where prizes were given out to your team previous to your last tournament? My point is why would you want a prize/award for finishing 2nd in a 3 team bracket? Was the Gold Glove a three team bracket for you? |
| March 3 elpbadboys 9 posts | Bob50 there were 16 teams in the bracket when we won the Gold Glove in 2005 |
| March 3 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | Bob50, sounds like he answered the question ! |
| March 3 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts | I wasn't asking about 2005. I was asking whether there were 3 teams in the bracket this year. Receiving a 2nd place prize (award) when there are 16 teams is more important than a 2nd place finish when there are only 3 teams. It also would make sense to provide more in terms of awards if an association receives tournament fees from 16 teams compared to only 3. |
| March 4 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts | I agree with that ! |
| March 5 halmany 16 posts | there was a company that offered nice champions packages for all winning team players but could not come to terms with ssusa management |
| March 5 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Boy, who wouldn't want to play in a tournament put on by #6?! It would be worth the $400 entry fee. But I agree with E4/E6. The real satisfaction is winning a tournament, particularly a tough one or one you weren't expected to win. For me, personally, I don't know what to do with trophies, watches, etc.. I'm happy with a T-shirt that I can wear during the week that says "Tournament Champions..." But like others, I sometimes wonder where all the money goes for an expensive tournament with poor prizes, compared to a less-expensive tourney with same umps, same balls, same fields, etc. |
| March 7 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | elpbadboys, hi! I know who you are, maybe you remember me? Living way out here in the sparse southwest we get used to 3 and 4 teams in our brackets.The same teams most of the time, but it is either this or travel quite a ways for tourneys.It does seem that prizes have dwindled, even in the bigger tourneys. However, I am totally thankful to be playing passably (debatable) at nearly 58, and I enjoy the competition and the comeraderie playing brings.I have 5 big boxes of trophies, plaques, etc in the attic. I have about 25 jackets from teams and tourneys and so many t-shirts they fill several drawers. At this point, prizes are secondary. I thank God for my health, the ability to still play, the teams I play with, and those that provide the venue to play this wonderful game. In 20 years, we won't remember the prizes. We will remember that we played, competed and sometimes won. |
| March 8 Wes Men's 65 335 posts | Ok help me out---I'm going to be TD for two new tournaments this summer--I'm starting to buy my First and Second place ????--If I get a trophie/plaque/etc where does it go---to the basement of the coach or the store room of the sponsor. Should first place be 18"-24"-30"-48" high--should the second place be 6"-12"-18" shorter than the first place. I have been playing for 5 years and I do not need any of it but I want elpbadboys to be happy and come back next year. I'm doing this because I want these two tournaments in my state. Team fees will not cover the cost of the tournament/etc. so it will come out of my pocket. I think each player on the winning team should get something to take home---I think, not sure yet, I will have a nice patch made that says first place----- that you could put on your coat that tells the rest of us you played on a winning team. Someone tell me what you think. |
| March 8 Jawood Men's 50 943 posts | NO! Not another patch! Unless it has some info on it. How many of those stupid generic patches does everyone have that doesn't say the tournament it was, date it was played or the division you were in. |
| March 9 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts | I agree Jawood! Patches would be fine if they would include date and tournament. The current generic patch won't mean as much in years to come. |
| March 9 jc24 96 posts | WES..regarding to "USING PATCHES"..call out to SSWC and talk to Fran, they do a real nice job on the PHOENIX PATCHES..got one from 2005, real nice. If she'll send u one or a picture, you could modify it to your tourney. Not sure if your talking about a L'ville tourney or here in Dayton, Ohio...let me know if u need some help on this patch... Jerry Carter gcarter2@woh.rr.com Dayton Legends -55 |
| March 9 titanhd Men's 60 640 posts | http://www.wilsontrophy.com/custompatches/customPatches.aspx |
| March 9 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | I'm at a loss for words. |
| March 9 Wes Men's 65 335 posts | I agree--- Must tell you a dark secret that I try not to tell--I'm a architect I design my own things. It is what we call around here UK blue--it has a gold edge around it--around the top half of the circle it says "River City Classic" on the bottom half of the circle it says " Fort Knox"---in big letters across the middle it says "WINNER" on top of the word winner is "2010" under the word winner it says "50's'I have one for each age group. under 50's in half size letters is saya "SPA" all in gold Wes |
| March 10 LP 317 posts | there was a tournament in clute,tx this past weekend, 6 teams in our 60's division $325 entry first place got a blank t-shirt,but with clute 2009 on the sleve.2nd got 4 all tourney windbreakers. i just think it can get much cheeser than that for awards. oh wait i for got about vegas word we got a tote bag for winning ha ha i guess it can get cheeser,and we paid even more ha ha |
| March 10 MikeC Men's 60 38 posts | Cost of a tournament: Yearly we run a number of Men’s ASA tournaments offering travel money for winners. I have broken down the cost of the tournament based on 24 teams with an entry fee of $150.00. Entry fee $150 X 24 teams $3,600.00 Hotel Motel money $1,000.00 ------------- Income $4,600.00 Each team plays 2 round robin games then a double elimination tournament begins. So a total of 71 games are played. Umpires @$20.00 a game X 71 games $1,420.00 Softballs @$3.60 each 100 used $ 360.00 Payouts based on 24 teams 1st place $1,000.00 2nd $725.00 3rd $475.00 4th $300.00 5th & 6th $150.@ Payout $2,800.00 Total expense of running tournament $4,580.00 Now this is a entry fee of $150.00 compared to say $600.00 per team – I fully understand that the different organizations are making a nice living off senior softball but if we can charge $150.00 supply softballs and pay umpires + have a prize fund of $2,800.00 can some one explain why senior softball cost so much to play. Then offer nothing for 1st or 2nd place usually – I got a hat for 2nd place at Winter Nationals one year. I do not know but am guessing the communities these national and regional tournaments are held at are also paying a large amount of money to the organizations for bringing these tournaments to town. I know this we bid on ASA State Tournaments each year and our Convention and Visitors Division helps pay a $7K bid to get a 35-40 team tournament to come and stay for one weekend. So you guess what they get for bringing 100+ teams to town. I too love playing Senior Softball but feel like we are getting held up each time we pay a entry fee. Mike |
| March 10 Ho 301 posts | Good points, Mike. But just a couple of other points..some tournaments do not ask for kickbacks from the hotels, rather they just pass the savings on to the teams. So the $1,000 you receive in kickback is not standard for the majority of tournaments. Unfortunately, we do not have free softball complexes like you do and we pay $3,000 for four field for five days plus grounds crew. we do not have the option of doing the ground work ourselves, due to city union contracts. Also our standard umpire fees are a little higher than yours and they are probably higher than ours in other areas of the country. Of course ours is only a small qualifier (AA/AA 60, 65, 70 and 75's)with no individual awards for second just individual awards for first place plus placques and placques for second. However, we must be doing something right with 50 plus teams attending. You are correct that for Regionals and Nationals, the organization receives a very substantial sum from the city (that is why we only have a qualifier, we won't pay the extra fee). Just pointing out this information because we don't want people to think those of us who run the qualifiers are retiring to Florida. If that was the case, I imagine all those who complain (not talking about you)about qualifiers would probably run the tournaments themselves, after all look at all the easy money to be had with little or no work or expenses. |
| March 10 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | MikeC You get off cheap, but the kicker or life saver in your case is the hotel AR income. You have no field or ins cost? I would have thought you would. Then your in the HOLE. Some other cost are not as obvious as those. Ins at about 7.20 a team, fields who knows. |
| March 10 Wes Men's 65 335 posts | Mike-Ho forgot-- water/ice/misc $400+/- and reason this all got started was someone did not go home with a award. We that do tournaments need a first and second place for 50-55-60-65-70-75 |
