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Discussion: Old Spice Presents: You Make The Call

Posted Discussion
March 2, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Old Spice Presents: You Make The Call
This actually happened:
Bottom of the 7th, tie score, man on third, 2 outs. After a defensive conference on the mound concludes the pitcher announces to the ump that they want to intentionally walk the next two batters (so they can set up a force at any base.) The batter due up runs directly to second and the on-deck batter runs directly to first. Then the next batter gets in the box ready to hit and the ump announces "play". The pitcher then appeals the runner on second missed first. He throws the ball to the firstbaseman who steps on first. What's the call?
March 2, 2011
JohnBob
Men's 60
248 posts
Safe,the appeal would have to be made before walking the 2rd batter.
March 2, 2011
curveball
Men's 65
404 posts
Runner on 2nd is out for missing 1st base. Pitcher appealed at the 1st moment play was resumed after dead ball time out. Can't appeal during time out, must wait for ump signal to "play".
March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The pitcher could have waited for time to be in, made the appeal, then motioned the next batter to first. Doesn't sound like it was done that way.
March 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
this has been brought up before and there is no outs to be had here.doesn't matter when or how you appeal,from what was said.
March 2, 2011
pete13ia
Men's 50
16 posts
There should be no appeal on this play. It appears to be umpire error The rule reads:
1.2 BASE ON BALLS
If the pitcher desires to walk a batter
intentionally, he may do so by notifying the plate umpire who
shall award the batter first base. Only one batter at a time can be
intentionally walked.

By allowing this to be done incorrectly as soon as the 2nd runner gets to first and the ump says play all bets are off.
He canít call the 1st runner out because of his mistake.
The best the umpire can do is call both players back and do the play over/correctly. Or to save time just say my bad everyone is safe lets play.
This is just my take on how I read the rule.

March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I guess the correct way to look at this might be for every other rule that is bastardized in senior ball why nitpick this one?
March 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
not only senior ball,most of the assoc's do it this way now for the double walk.
March 2, 2011
hitman
Men's 65
307 posts
This isn't a bastardized Senior Rule, it's the same regardless of what age group is playing.
The umpire should not being calling anyone out if he did the base awards at the same time.

The Hitman
March 2, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1302 posts
SSUSA 2010 Rule Book at ß8.1 B (at page 55) governs this exact factual situation. If the umpire mistakenly awards two intentional walks simultaneously, there is no appeal on the first runner who goes directly to 2nd base without touching 1st base. The umpire is NOT supposed to acknowledge and issue the second intentional walk until the first one has been properly handled. In this game, correct call should have been: tie score, bases loaded and two out in the bottom of the 7th inning, batter up!
March 2, 2011
pete13ia
Men's 50
16 posts
That is exactly the way the rule reads in the ASA rule book for ALL slow-pitch levels. Obviously not a rule bastartized just for Senior Softball.
March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I agree hitman, this one isn't. My point was for all of the other whacky rules this seemed like much ado about nothing.
March 2, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Some interesting answers. JohnBob is actually correct the way the rule was intended years ago--not necessarily written. You can't ask for an appeal on a play two batters later. That being said SSUSA Staff's response is actually the way it's handled today. The result of this scenario was the ump didn't know what to call and called over the park UIC. The UIC ruled it to be a correctable situation and had the first batter get back in the box, go to first while the next batter followed by doing the same thing.
March 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
stick, what exactly was the UIC "correcting"? Didn't everyone just wind up where they were anyway?

I understand the way it was done was not textbook, but I don't see that in the end anything changed other than some time was wasted.
March 3, 2011
Joncon
289 posts
Simple.

Bases loaded, 2 outs, tie score and the pitcher is ejected and banned for life for being a doosh.
March 3, 2011
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
Joncon, I had a similar reaction, but I think lifetime is too long. Give him a warning and ban him for a month or until other teams in the league/tournament vote for his return.
March 3, 2011
garyheifner
367 posts
What do we do when a guy hits a Hr and there are men on base? We all move up "1" base and go to the dugout to expidite the game. In this case the rule should read when mutiple batters are walked at the same time to set up additional force out posibilities, batters simply run to the bases. We have done this a number of times (walked two) with a man on 3rd and 2 outs). I can't remember a single time that the 1st man walked touched 1B and then went to 2nd. They always drop their bats and go right to 2nd. We would never try and argue a cheap out like that. Bush league.
March 4, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
gary, great point. As I said before, with all the whacky rules we not play under why pick on this one?
March 4, 2011
tg69
310 posts
Sometimes that can backfire on you.Saw a team do that very same thing in the TOC to get a force at any base and their pitcher couldnt throw a strike,walked in the winning run.Would have been better to walk just one to set up a force at first or second.
March 4, 2011
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
tg69, saw the same thing in league play at the end of year tournament. Pitcher is doing O.K. but his team is not hitting well. Bottom of the 7th, tie game, first two batters retired, but third batter gets to third on combo of single and error. Manager tells the pitcher to walk the next two batters to get the force at any base. Pitcher waves him off, but manager insists. Bases loaded, pitcher walks the next batter on four straight pitches, none of them close to the plate. Pitcher knew his own pressure threshold, but manager evidently didn't.
March 4, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Sure, any and every move can backfire. The pitcher should probably have only put the first batter on, unless that first batter is an absolute terrible hitter.

What they probably should have done, again not knowing the batters in particular but just the situation, is to just walk the first batter. That still creates a force at second, and if that is not enough to make the play and end the inning then the team on the field might not have deserved the win.

Then again, if the pitcher walks in the winning run perhaps he did not deserve the win either. No one is entitled to a win, you have to usually earn them.
March 4, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Gary19 to answer your question, yes everyone ended up where they were. When the pitcher made the appeal the ump suddenly figured he might have made a mistake by telling the first batter to go to second and the second batter to go to first. Even though everyone there knew the runner on second never touched first there's no way the ump could call him out for something that he instructed him to do. If he did, I have no idea how he or anyone else could explain that!! I suppose that's why he called the complex UIC over and why it was corrected. This happened in the mid 80's and as SSUSA staff and others on this thread have pointed out rules have been put in as to being handled differently today.
March 4, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Garyheifner you make a fair point about hr's with runners on. I would ask if your going to just touch one base why not touch them all? Isn't that the way it used to be done?
However, I do understand time limit and if that is the sole reason then it should be hit and sit.
March 4, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Thanks stick! In that case, the 'correction' just seems like a silly waste of time.

Guys who hit homers don't have to touch second, third, or even home for the runs to count. So why should anyone care if in this case the first batter touches first?
March 4, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Then let's abolish time limits. And if that is due to the offense these days, and we all know what contributes to that, well then..................
March 6, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
Looking back it was Gary19. I think that UIC used it as a teaching lesson to the umpire.
I never understood having to touch a base when you hit a hr. Either hit and sit or touch them all.
I can live with time limits during play-in games but the bracket games should be no time limit.
March 7, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Awwwwww, c'mon stick-getting too old to run all the way around the bases on a home run. Umpires will be calling delay of the game on me! Even at full speed.
March 7, 2011
stick8
1318 posts
LOL I understand Webbie. Hit and sit is the way to go.
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