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| June 22 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Infielder movement This one is especially for Einstein, but I guess reading the 'distraction' rule as written I would like a clarification. Sec 6.8 (2). I have always been an outfielder, but with injuries and age making it tougher to go 8 or 9 games, I find myself playing more and more infield. I have always tried to keep track of a hitters' tendencies and leaned or moved ahead of the pitch toward his strength when possible. With some hitters I move early trying to make them think about where they are hitting. With others I move, or take a small step and reset so they think I am going to move in a direction. Is this considered a distraction? At shortstop I realize I am squarely in the line of the batter's vision. At third it is less of a factor, but my intent is to make the batter think, or get away from his strength. Is this considered 'distracting' per the rule? I always considered it 'gamesmanship'. We have so few things we can do defensively against good hitters swinging these bats. |
| June 22 Gary19 Men's 50 2609 posts | r Webbie, go with gamesmanship. As long as batters continue using the special bats all should be fair defensively. If all they want to do is swing away let's create a home run derby circuit. |
| June 22 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | r There was one more thing. Back about 10-15 years ago we were a very overmatched team playing the best team in Albuquerque-a Class A team. Having almost no chance of even competing, I set up a defense I called Chaos. I had every defensive player moving before the pitch. I confused them so bad that they only scored 3 runs in the first 4 innings before they finally just started hitting and blew us out. Would that be legal in Senior ball? |
| June 22 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | r Hey Mark. Very interesting scenarios and well said. The rule is self explanatory regarding unsportsman like intent. If you're doing it intentionally to distract it's unsportsmanlike and shouldn't be proffered or allowed. What kind of player would do that? The same one looking to shave or load a bat if he thought he could get away with it? Yet, tradition and evolution create a buffer zone of acceptance just as in, you don't get busted for going 4 miles over the speed limit even though legally speaking, one is speeding. The situation of running behind the pitcher from SS is creative but would be called unsportsmanlike if I saw you do it a couple of times demonstrating it had nothing to do with any specific batter's tendency for hitting. Also, I have played the infield all my life and I move a lot but it's to gain an advantage to where I think the hitter might be going. That would be different, don't you think? The rule is about INTENTION and may be tough to talk about but more often than not you know it when you see it just like I did in Reno and some guys saw in Pinetop last weekend. We need umps and TD's who understand the rules, their fundamental character regarding ASA style pitching and who are not afraid to call an illegal pitch or even eject the offender as the rules direct which should give any ump all the power he needs to get any pitcher in compliance. |
| June 22 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | r And yes, the entire team moving at once is definitively unsportsmanlike and the ump could have ejected all of you on the spot which would have complemented the drama you guys had begun. Very interesting and creative, Mark. Great way to have a look at the character of the rule. Thanks. |
| June 22 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | r well webbie,you are a very smart man.i move constantly on the pitch when playing SS or 2b,also in the outfield at times.to me if you don't with this hot combo you are playing into the hands of the offense.i also move when pitching to get a jump on the ball to field it.why stand in one spot when ya know the ball is gonna be in another spot on the field.if ya don't move,your the dumbest player on this planet or the laziest. it seems like someone wants the defense to stay in one spot and not move till contact is made to make it easier for him to hit,well that is never gonna happen....please child....... |
| June 22 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | r Einstein-I already told you the intent was to get him thinking-not distract during a pitch. If he knows I am moving one way or the other, or going to move, he could use it, so I do switch which way I go, but not to distract, but to get a jump. As far as the chaos defense, it was not in any rule book that it was illegal back then. The umpires even congratulated us on something unique to tackle a team we had no place being on the field with. We have actually thought about it for our senior team, but never implemented it. Some teams, though, can just rip you up defensively and a change might just make a difference. Why do we have to just stand there with all of these gaping holes between us in the field, senior bats to rip line drives into those holes, and allow a good hitter to pick his spot? Why can a defensive team not move WITH THE PITCH-each man trying to guess where they will try to hit it? |
| June 22 Tim Millette 615 posts | r I am trying to figure out where in the rule book distraction and sportsmanship are in the same paragraph? If an infielder is moving he's trying to make the batter think about something other then hitting to ball so..... I would think according to Joes rules it's illegal. Is there a legel way, and an illegal way to distract? Maybe we need clarification? |
| June 22 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | r yep webbie again great post.i move on the pitch as much as i can to get to a spot i think the batter is going to hit the ball at,i see no prol with that,to me that is not distracting anyone,if it is distracting to a batter maybe they should stop playing and go to an easier game for them,maybe checkers........ |
| June 22 Pricer Men's 50 621 posts | r It's all about interpretation! Any umpire who would make this call as distraction would have to be baited by a opposing team first. I beleive that is what's happening here. Like it was said earlier, an umpire will make the call if & when it is needed. Just know up front, if your playing against Joe's team he has surely discussed this with the umpire. |
| June 22 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | r Tim-That's exactly why I bring it up. The way I read the rule, there could be quite a gray area as far as interpretation of the rule the way it is written. Any movement could be considered a distraction-umpires judgement. Personally, as a hitter, there isn't much a defense is going to do on the field that will distract me except run at me. Being an ex-pitcher, I have good peripheral vision and if I catch a second baseman moving early, I will hit it behind him. As an umpire, I would never call it unless extremely blatant. As far as every guy moving defensively----why not, as long as they are just 'anticipating' the hit? Einstein-you are sounding like you want everybody quiet, unmoving, and the pitcher to serve it up so you can crush it 500 feet with your senior bat--almost like a pro golfer. Is the next step to quiet the crowd, too? |
| June 22 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | r One more thing, Joe-you talk about running behind the pitcher. Running would be one thing, but why can't I move toward the center based on where the pitch is and possibly the batters previous hit up the middle in that game? And, if I do it more than once in an at bat, why would you argue? |
| June 22 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | r yep webbie,been there done all of it.had batters get me when i have moved and also have gotten fielders my self,thats the way it should be.let the cry babies go someplace else. |
| June 22 softball4b Men's 70 1250 posts | r I do not see any problem with an infielder moving. In every game you see fielders cheating to an area in an attempt to gain a fielding advantage. Now in Tim's case, in the old days. He would run toward toward the batter and in some instances be almost closer to the batter than the pitcher. He was playing first and I never saw him doing it on a left hand batter.Believe it or not, he is smarter than he looks. There were a number of right hand batters that would try and change their swing, just to take a shot at him. To the best of my recollection nobody ever got him, couple came close, but no cigar. |
| June 22 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | r Tim, Mark, Jeff, Robert and Mike. Thanks again Mark for the great question/scenarios. Tim, it has to do with unsportsmanlike intent and yes distraction, intention and unsportsman-like all appear in the same sentence in ASA and SSUSA Pitching Regulations, 6.8 Tradition, evolution, judgment and interpretation are all part of the equation, too which necessitates a discussion like the one we're having right now. The idea is to get as many of us as possible on the same page so we can avoid unnecessary conflict, confusion and resentment during a tournament from happening again. I think the interpretation/judgment by the ump is the key because the rule hinges on someone's intention which can only be sensed and felt by another irrespective of any specific behavior. It's like when the umps in baseball warn the pitcher/managers for throwing at a batter. The pitcher can always say it slipped and may be telling the truth but it's a judgement by the ump that is critical and final. If the team moves as a defensive strategy like in football then cool. The OLD A's when Larry Campbell coached them had signals for movement to cover the place they thought the ball would most likely go. That was the intention and it was obvious and not to distract the batter. But let's say the shortstop kicked the dirt up intentionally as he moved toward second on a shift. The ump may get he was doing trying to distract the batter directly and make the call. And remember the player, any player can be ejected for one infraction of unsportsmanlike distraction of the batter. That would give the control needed by the ump to maintain order in the game. Again, if I was umping in Reno during the Legends/Mavericks game I would have slowed Donny down to a crawl for his intention to me was obviously to distract the batter, being a pitcher, myself. Next SSUSA tournament for us in Western Worlds in Yolo County, California. Hope to got it dialed in by then. |
