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Discussion: What Do You Think

Posted Discussion
July 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
What Do You Think
Screens, extra players, bigger plates, masks, and not being able to hit a ball up the middle without guys wanting to fight or using safer equipment what makes more sense?
July 18, 2011
GaCMan
86 posts
screens (NO)
extra players(yes)
bigger plates (NO)
masks (YES if you want one)
middle hitting (YES part of the field)
hitting the PITCHER (NO not on purpose)

KEEP IT SIMPLE,PLAY FAIR,PLAY BALL, ACT LIKE GROWN MEN SHOULD,THERES ONLY SO MANY GAMES LEFT
July 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Lively bats and balls that don't kick
when fielding like Spalding rubber balls,
are essential
to the softball experience.

Everything else is situational and negotiable,
up to agreement and common sense.
Screens would work fine, especially for seniors.




July 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
We don't need all these gimmicks if you lose the ultra's and use just a little less lively ball.
July 18, 2011
GaCMan
86 posts
I could agree to the bat change if we go back to the hot balls of yesteryear.
I watched some young guys playing in local city tourney the other night using the 52/300 ball sounded like a mush ball contest.
Even so there were only 2 maybe 3 bats being used by either team recon they were doctered???
They were still mashing this ball but they were young,strong and fast.
If you loose the ultras and the balls boy howdy will that really change the game don't know if I would vote for that????
Still say let the players that are registered for senior ball vote and lets see where the chips fall.
KEEP IT SIMPLE,PLAY FAIR,ACT LIKE GROWN MEN SHOULD,THERES ONLY SO MANY GAMES LEFT!!!!!
July 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Less lively than a good 44 x 375 ball won't work
as with the 52 core 275 ball.
It's a sock and doesn't hit well enough to sustain enjoyable interest.
It's not fun, intuitive or rewarding enough for seniors
or anyone else for that matter.

All the talk I hear is let's go back to the blue dot and very good single wall bat standard
we used earlier with the likes of some DeMarini models and Easton Connections.

We have to use a lively bat/ball combo to be successful.
SSUSA knows that.
SPA, NCSSA, SPA, Huntsman and LVSSA know it, too.
July 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
I can already see where this thread is going. Sometimes when things get all muddied up and you can't find the right answer. Just go back to when these items were not an issue. Take the game back to its simplest form and then try to improve the game from that point. Right now it's like using a band-aid for an amputation. Sometimes you have to have some casualties before you can win the war.
July 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's what we were talking about, Jeff.
Before composites we were using good metal bats (single and double walls)
and good to very good balls and were having a blast.
A lower bat/ball standard than used at present
will kill interest and our game, dead as door nails.
Let's go back to the good ball/bat era before bat/ball entrepreneurs
and their lobbyists got involved.
July 18, 2011
perly
88 posts
Screens: Note crazy about the idea. We use a screen in our senior league and it's ok however the player level goes from Major + to non-tournament player.

Extra player: No

Bigger plate: No

Masks: Yes, watch the young guys who play the conference, most pitchers and some infielders wear masks.

Hitting the middle: Part of the field and part of the game. Nobody tries to hit a pitcher intentionally and if they do they're idiots.

Playing NSA this weekend and no Senior Bats allowed. We'll see how it goes. I prefer a good bat/ball combination but could live w/o senior bats if we hit a good ball.
July 18, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
Pricer, I like your answer. When did we last have a game without these issues? It was back in the single wall days (the deMarini and other double walls began the controversies of too short fences, pitcher safety, too expensive fragile bats, etc.). The composites only compounded the problem with the once singles-hitting players now hitting home runs, ground balls too fast for infielders' reflexes, balls so dangerous for pitchers they are armoring up, and even more fragile and expensive bats.

I don't know how einstein remembers the prevalence of the blue dots with wooden and single wall bats. I remember the blue dot lasting one year in league play before the rec department banned it because of injuries to infielders and pitchers. This ban by cities and rec departments was widespread: it certainly affected tournaments in Redwood City, Palo Alto, Burlingame, and Hayward in my recollection.

Nope, the era of the balanced game (offense, defense, base running, strategy) was threatened by the double wall/titanium bat and destroyed by the composite and a lively ball. Thus began the slide in number of players and the dissatisfaction of many such as myself, including large numbers who just dropped out, leaving the current "majority" (if it is) to the long ball hitters who like to hit the ball deep. And we wonder why healthy guys who loved and played softball for decades are dropping out of senior softball.
July 18, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
I guess it really depends on when you started playing the game. For most of this senior softball generation started playing with CN100's & Dudley SB12 cork center balls along with wooden bats. So that is why I have such a hard time understanding why folks are so quick to distance themselves from the true game of softall we all learned to play and loved.
July 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
The guys who hit the long ball will still be the power hitters but pitchers and third baseman will be safer.It's still the same game
but you will get more players.
July 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hitting a restricted flight ball
which is what a 52 x 275 ball essentially is,
is counter intuitive and will create more stress,
frustration and tension in the game.
You must be rewarded for going to the center of the ball which is the where natural eye-hand
coordination will lead you
and not discouraged.

Essentially as was said before here by many
with 275 by 52 core ball,
you will be penalized for hitting well
and rewarded for miss-hitting/underspinning it.
This cannot and will never be satisfying enough
go the great majority of players
to carry the enjoyment we have learned to have
playing with good to very good bats and balls.
And participation will drop dramatically.

There exists when the curtain is pulled back
a very few ardent supporters of a new ball and bat standard that will gain greatly
if and when it is ever adopted.
That's what we're up against.
That's all.

No team I sponsor, manage or play on
will ever play with restricted flight ball
i.e. one that doesn't carry as well as
the current good 44 x 375 standard.

July 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There's something else that's obviously true
to anyone who plays our game
about using a slower bat/ball combo.
It's the MOST of the players, not the elite ones but the average guy
who will be most disadvantaged
and discouraged.
Regular hitters as they get older
need "pace" on the ball to get it by an infielder
or through a hole or into a gap
to be and feel successful.
And a bigger sweet spot as with the Ultra 2
affords more room for mistakes.
When regular players can do well they are rewarded and want to continue
to play and invest.

There's no doubt in my mind that going to a lesser bat/ball combo than what we are using
today will kill senior softball
if not all of softball.

Outlaw/alternative/new leagues will become
the order of the day
as we effort to play our game and have fun,
one way or another.

July 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
I don't claim I know what other people think but I do know what make's sense and screens in the middle of the field and extra players and tinkering with the whole game is crazy when just to two simple changes will accomplish this.
July 18, 2011
GSWP001
Men's 60
73 posts
I agree with if you go to a lessor bat then lets bring back the better ball. I do enjoy hitting the ultra but I would be willing to get back to softball as we knew it. I think the only reason they restricted the ball in days of yore was because of cost.
July 18, 2011
UMBACH
33 posts
Iknow in our leagues we have gotten rid of the real hot bats and went to a asa ball, and we r starting to get a lot of players back
July 18, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
UMBACH, I'm sure your experience would not be unique. In our league, we restrict composites to the over-75 guys, and double walls to the over-70 players, and the result is that our league play and participation continues to grow. Guys like to play defense and they don't like to chase a ball to the fence on an average guy, only to see it go over.

I think einstein's comment above is telling as it represents the offense at any cost thinking. He is one who has stated he will no longer play if we go back to a less lively bat/ball combo (in otherwords, go back only to 2002).

Note he supports why "regular" older players should like the hot bat/ball combo because they can hit it past the infielders or into the gap in the outfield, things they couldn't do when they were younger! You could easily turn his argument around as follows:

"Regular fielders, as they get older, need less pace on the ball to defend as they used to before aging reflexes and weaker arms and slower legs lessened their enjoyment of the game. They want to get to a ball in the hole or stop a shot up the gap to be and feel successful."

We all got on base in the past with those kind of hits, but we earned them by hitting more precisely in the hole, not a 2-foot-away rocket by a third baseman who doesn't stick his glove out until the ball is past him.

Not sure the 275x52 ball is the answer since I've never played with it. Maybe it is a sock as einstein says, but something has to be done before we lose too many more players (both current senior and 40s who are disgusted with the change to offense and the bat-altering that seems to accompany it).
July 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
I am 67 years old and now play with 50 yr olds in league play. The reason I play now is because we went to ASA bats and I still have a chance to make a play at third and not get killed with a rocket of one of the hot bats that they played with before. People are getting hurt and the longer we wait the sooner some poor pitcher is going to get killed. Come on guys a screen in the middle of the diamond and if you hit the screen it's an out. WHAT KIND OF GAME IS THAT?
July 18, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Screens (I am no pitcher, so I have NO say)

Extra players (if you mean batting more than 11...yes)

Bigger Plates: NO, & NO Matt or plate for strike; you play 30 years w/o the stuff, why change when you become a Senior? It is not a safety issue like dbl first or dbl home plate; let the pitcher show his stuff; you got an ump back there!!! Why have an Ump behind the plate if the plate & matt are strikes, the score keeper can call the balls & strikes, put the Ump in the Infield.

Masks: your face; wear what you want.

Middle: Like Perly; I do not know of "ANY" senior players that would intentionally hit at the pitcher. I hit one @ Lawrenceville, Ga that missed the pitcher's head about 2' to the right of his head on the pitching side.... I about passed out. NO matter how great a hitter you are, you cannot control every swing or you'd bat a 1.000.

Bat/Ball: played since 99'; used the metal bats & good balls; had plenty of dbl plays; no RPInning & had a great time. Beat a lot of teams & got beat. Do not remember anyone getting seriously injured.
As far as cheaters!!!!! If rocket launchers were legal, they's figure a way to doctor that!!! A cheater is a cheater is a cheater & if you knowing play w/one & don't call him out, shame on you!!!

Tater50
July 18, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
well let first begin,whiney is going to quit softball as he is not going to play with a restricted flight ball,well dip stick what do you think all softballs are,duh they are all restricted flight.....like i have said before,please know your facts before you throw crap out there.......

omar the 52 ball is not a sock,in fact i would rather hit that ball on a 95 degree day than a trump stote.we could still use the senior bat with this ball with no prol,i say this as we use it for league with no prols what so ever,and we are not even using the senior bats,usssa and asa stamped bats only.the ball will bounce on occasion but not like whiney says it does,i have 30 games or more in with it and have seen 2 hi bounces with it.both of those were over my head on the mound.so if you really are looking into safety this ball will accomplish this.

oh so far our leagues have a waiting list to get into,unlike the other city that lets them play with the 44 ball and all the dirty bats.
July 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There you go talking about dirty bats again
with such authority and comfort, Robert.
I don't know one player who swings/has
a dirty bat.
Do you?
You have so much information about balls
and bats it seems.
What and who are your sources?

Screens work just fine for us
and for me hitting it would be dead ball strike
just like a foul ball.
Keeps the fun in the game and no one need be
overly worried about hurting pitchers
and brings the middle back into play for the big boys to try and take it deep over the middle.

The bat/ball combo cannot be compromised
regardless of the reason and keep our game
intact.
52 x 275 ball doesn't and will never
be satisfying enough to sustain commitment,
interest and investment.
Plus, it kicks greatly creating dangerous
bad hops that will cause more injuries
to fielders.





July 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
I am sorry but like I said before A screen in the middle of diamond
turns the game into a joke.
July 19, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Joe,there's no one on hear that's the real authority on anything including you or I. So while you blast other folks for being passionate about the game, take time to look in the mirror. We all want the same thing, just different paths on getting there.
July 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, Jeff.
You're right about the passion and I'm sure it shows
and we all have our opinions which is healthy and good.
When the 52 x 275 ball was brought to us for our endorsement
4 teams in NorCal were helping Terry decide about it.
It was billed as hitting as good and less dangerous.
Now, who wouldn't want to endorse a ball like that.
The fact of the matter is that is doesn't hit even close
to good enough for us to fundamentally enjoy ourselves
and want to continue to play and invest in our sport.
It's that simple.
It's counter intuitive and this is a defining aspect
of it's failure.
Ask Terry.
Ask MTC or the Old A's who were there one hot Saturday
in Elk Grove.
This is the sitting opinion by all the players that participate
and continue to play in SPA, NCSSA, LVSSA, SSUSA, Huntsman
and the Associations themselves.

It simply doesn't hit well enough to be a viable alternative.
It was a good idea to see if it would
but it doesn't.
Game, set and match.
I've got 12 of them and just aren't lively enough
and they kick WAY to much off any hard surface.

Now, it's America and there's a small lobby of folks
trying to get this ball passed because they think it's the answer.
They're not bad folks either.
They just made an investment but got it wrong about us,
who we are and how we want/need to play OUR game.

If you or Maddog or anyone else want to play with
said ball, knock yourselves out.
If it makes you truly happy, I'm happy for you.
But it doesn't make us, the most of us very happy at all
and we'll move to play our game where ever and when ever
we chose.

Screens would work and Jeff,
you and Saddy don't have to play
if you don't want to but don't think for a second
we're wrong about ourselves what we want
and are entitled to.
We are not killers or cheaters or
insecure in ourselves.
You need to leave us alone or
learn to leave to us alone to play our game.




July 19, 2011
perly
88 posts
Pricer, I think your statement "we all want the same thing, just different paths getting there" is one of the best comments I've read on this board. I think everyone wants a level playing field, rules that don't differ much from the game we played 30 years ago and an opputunity to play and be competitive.

Einstein, until someone has a better solution I believe you are in the majority when you say a good bat/ball combination is a must. I can't imagine anyone would rather play/watch a 10-9 game that a 25-24 game.

GaCMan, you've got it right bro "Keep it simple."

Tater 50, see you CMan at the Eastern NSA this weekend.

July 19, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joe,
If you want to play with a screen you have every right. The game in my view is more than trying hitting the ball as far as possible. Do you really think that a screen in the middle of the diamond is better than just toning down the bat and ball combo. If home runs are your thing why not bring in the fences and make the game safer. Why not have one Division that you can use any equipment you want and all the people that think like you can play in it then we could both be happy.
July 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We already have and play the game
we're interested in playing.
We are grounded, playing and in the majority.
If you want to play with lesser equipment, great.
Find and create tournaments to play and be in and
LEAVE US to play the game as we see fit.
We're NOT wrong, WIll defend ourselves
and RIGHTLY so.





July 19, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Joe, after reading some of the other posts & threads on this and similar subjects I think a number of folks on here don't care for your referring to almost every post as we or us. When someone else indicates this, it's always some of you or you'll call him or her out by name as being just a small group trying to hurt or dumb down our game. I think that pisses some folks off. You act as if you are speaking for the masses & everyone who disagrees with you are just one or two guys trying to ruin it for you & all the others.
July 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I will speak what I believe is true from my experience
and understanding, Jeff.
It's possible for any ONE of us to get what's going on.
"You don't need to be a Weatherman to know which way
the wind blows."
It's obvious we need a lively enough bat/ball combo
to play our game.
It just is amd is well evidenced.
I'm sorry if you or others can't see or get this
but it's not my/our fault, either.

July 19, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Joe, I was not indicating it was anyone's fault. I as you do not have any title before or after our names indicating we speak for the masses. You say you have a pulse on the entire senior softball player’s feelings and I say you don't. We won our second tourney this weekend in as many attempts. And talked to a lot of players and umpires. Joe, I'm telling you for a fact that the majority of the players don't feel the same way you do. They play because they love the camaraderie and the game. They play with the rules we have in place, but would welcome any rules that would make the game safer without all the gimmicks being used today to cosmetically on the surface make the game better. Also, I'm sorry that some players can't see past the end of their bat to make good, solid softball saving decisions. I'm just one guy trying to make a difference and hoping others smarter than I will continue to helping improve our game. Improve the game is the key word word here, not one part of it!
July 19, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Pricer ... You just don't get it ... Whinestein is the definitive source on this message board ... Always has been ... He speaks for the majority ... He will accept nothing less than being technology-aided ... Otherwise, he will quit the game ... He will take his composite bat, hot ball, enormous glove, and screen and go home if he doesn't get and maintain his way ... Just don't allow him to get your personal information.
July 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
well first off GARYC welcome back,i did see that you were jumped on were out the box tho by the usually person,don't worry he just doesn't get it.there are other people in this world,besides this buffoon.

#19 you get the door prize for hitting the nail on the head...........no it is not me playing for you so don't worry.....LOL.......
July 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
oh whinestein,i'm gonna call you an out right liar as you have already stated that you have used dirty bats in this very forum.so please be careful what you say,or at least remember it.

July 19, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Thank's mad dog nice to be back hope we will meet someday.
It's just beyond me to think a screen in the middle of the diamond is ok with most of the players in Senior Softball. I just played with a shortstop who now wears a mask because he saw an infielder in a tournament take a bad hop in the nose split the bone and probably end his career. Common sense and safety for all over are preferences on how we think the game should be played
July 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We disagree Jeff, loud and clear.
The majority of players and I'll say the great majority of players
want and need to play with a lively and satisfyingly so, bat/ball combo
not one iota less than the good 44 x 375 ball/senior bat standard.
I've not talked with one
NOT ONE PLAYER
in my lifetime who wants to hit with a lesser combo.
NOT ONE on the Blasters, MTC, Old A's, Kellys, Courtesy Auto, Rebels,
Stixx, ODB, Redwood City Reds, Old Dawgs, Barons, Longhorns,
East Bay Oldies, MOB, NorCal Merchants,
or any of the over 2000 players who make up NCSSA
where we use Baden Fire balls and Senior bats
successfully and happily.

Did you hear that SPA is going back to HRs as walks and equalizer HRs?
This is the direction we're going in and want to go
regarding hitting with lively bats and balls
and keeping our game fun/safe enough to invest in and want to play.

All the Associations have endorsed 44x 375 balls and Senior bats, Jeff.
How much more evidence do you need of our present condition and will.

Again, I think the idea of being safer has merit but not at the cost of neutering
the game we love, want, deserve and will play somewhere, one way or another.
Screens in my opinion would work fine with seniors.
I've heard no resistance to them in my conversations with the guys I play with
and against.


July 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sad Dog, Sponge Bob you're a pathetic loser and nothing either one of us says
is ever gonna change that.
I don't consider a dirty bat a rolled bat, Robert.
To me, it's just broken in.
Shoot me but I don't care as a pitcher, fielder or hitter.

A shaved or loaded bat would be a Dirty Bat to me
and I don't do 'em and don't know anyone who does or uses 'em.
What about you?
You say you know guys who are using them?
Who are they and how do you know?

PS
I don't swing or have a shaved, loaded or rolled bat
in my possession.
What about you?
July 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary C.
I'm an infielder by trade and I would rather field a less bouncy more predictable ball
like the 44 x 375 balls we use than a high bouncing and kicking 52 x 275 ball that's being
bandied about.
I believe I would have much more chance of a ball hitting me in the face or anywhere
with the bouncy, kicking 52 ball than the 44 x 375 ball.
I would prefer to field the 44 x 375 ball over the 52 ball, any day.
July 19, 2011
stick8
1265 posts
Here's what I think:
Screens: NO
Extra players: presuming you mean extra fielders: NO
Masks: OPTIONAL
Bigger plates: NO
Hitting middle: YES (but not with the intent to injure)
Safer Equipment: OPTIONAL



July 19, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joe
I thought you said you were a pitcher.I am a third baseman and I can tell you the faster the ball gets on you the harder it is to react
If people think we play with unsafe equipment we will not get new players and lose many we have.
July 19, 2011
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
I have been reading/particpating in this message board for some years. I am glad to see Einstein back, even though many people feel the need to fight against him. I am totally bummed out to see the anonymous trouble-instigator Gary C allowed back. As a freedom-loving American, I can see that it is righteous for him/her to be able to express his/her opinion. An obvious fact is that if the SSUSA rules do not suit his/her preferences, then he/she has the option to (please) go play in other tournaments which have rules which do satisfy his/her preferences. Omar and others, I don't know ANYONE who has expressed to me the desire to dumb down the bat/ball combo (which Omar has claimed is responsible for an alleged decline in senior softball membership - disregarding the record attendance at SSUSA tournaments) or anyone who has said that they quit senior softball because of the lack of the defensive part of the game.
Jano
July 20, 2011
Sunshine1949
Men's 60
32 posts
I feel the defensive players need to take advantage of the equipment available to protect them, if the senior nat is being used,I realize it is not the macho things to do, maybe it should be mandatory to some extent.
The other point I would like to make is to the senior bats. I played a game three weeeks ago in a rec. legue with the kids and hit a Miken MV out of the, probably went 340....someone in the stands brings me a Combat Cent. and next time up I hit that ball out probably went 330, a line drive. I was stunned by the velocity of the ball leaving the bat. I bought one and use it because it is legal in my league and I'm hitting over 900 with it but the velocity concerns me for the fielders, not as much in the rec. league because I'm playing against 20 yr. olds but more so with seniors, we don't have the same reflexes we once had.
The point is I think we need to keep the pace moving with a live ball so we can score runs....who wants watch or play a 6-5 game.
Maybe a USSSA/ASA bat is enough, for us as well.
Guys that hit HR with senior bats can still hit it out, if they hit it solid, isn't that the way it should be.
I will end with this since I got the senior bat, when I hit it out or drill a line drive it is no longer my ability, ITS THE BAT, in the opinion of others. They forget that I hit out with the Miken MV.
July 20, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Random Remarks:

#1. Northern California does not constitute a majority.

#2. Anyone who thinks that a 6-5 game or a 10-9 game is somehow less exciting than a 30-29 game knows very little about softball/baseball and appreciates it less.

#3. A rolled bat is an altered bat.

#4. Safe and neutered are not synonymous.

#5. Weathermen are wrong all too often.

July 20, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I played 3rd base/catcher in high school and college
but fell in love with pitching a couple of years ago
and it keeps me excited and motivated to play.

It's about lively enough for the bat/ball combo
and common sense rules as we have in NorCal to keep "hot" balls
off the pitcher.

The 52 ball I have hit and heard about from others
is not lively enough with any current bat
to sustain interest in playing our game
and it creates more injuries for it's "kicking" and unpredictability to field.

Try to kill the messenger all you want.
It won't work.

The movement to get rid of senior bats is political
and money oriented and has worked its way onto concerns
about the integrity of the game and safety.
There's virtually no difference between a senior bat
and a good broken in USSSA bat.
I've seen guys win open home run derbies with USSSA bats.
The hottest bat I ever swung was a broken in original Freak.

There are entrepreneurs/companies and new guys all the time
trying to make their bones with new companies
who want to eliminate/beat competition in the market place.
C'mon guys.
They been trying to kill Miken ever since they took over
with the Ultra and Ultra 2.
It's America and any lobbyists who are shrewd and self interested
can be wrong about what in fact is truly in OUR best interest especially when/if we're not paying attention.
They can work behind the scenes with Commissions,
lobby, introduce and support regulation and
help create regulatory agencies that will serve them
long down the road.

All to say.
We need lively bats and balls to play our game
satisfyingly.
Anything less is blindness or some form of self interest.
We don't need to bend or listen to anyone
who isn't of us and doesn't love, play with or know us.

Lively bats and balls forever
and if we need to go to screens
which isn't ideal
at least we'll have the joy and excitement of hitting
and the risk that is inherent and integral in most to all,
competitive sports.

July 20, 2011
gary c
411 posts

Jano{one of einstein's minions}

I have attacked no one on this thread and yet you take a shot at me.
It seems when you think you are starting to lose an argument you and Joe start to get personal. WHY?
If you think unless you score 25 or 30 runs it's not a good game then we can't discuss
the subject. You want screens and all your little quirks fine turn the game into carnival.
Just stop and think someone 49 years old is walking by and is thinking I wonder if I should
get into senior softball and he sees a screen in front of the pitcher 11 players and all the goofy
things you guys want he will just keep on walking and either stay at home or go play in the MSBL.

July 20, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You have no credibility with us, sir (or madam)
when you become personal in your assaults,
Gary, as long as you won't stand up and in with us.
You can think we respect bottle throwing anonymity
but, in fact, we don't and that would be an overwhelming
majority opinion.
It's not respectful or manly by the oldest and deepest
traditions of honor and accountability that are embedded
in our culture and you should and will be treated accordingly.

You are accountable for the volume of crap
you dumped in and on us as is SSUSA for allowing you to do it
and SHOULD BE called on it with or without their support.

You have demonstrated your insecurity by defining us and our threads
as about winning or losing.
We are playing, caring, informing, investing,
discussing, arguing, defending, teaching,
sharing with, understanding, experiencing, reporting and
learning from one another,
first and foremost.


July 20, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
see garyc,guess some people don't care,they'll attack just because.whiney has already stated he has swung a rolled bat which is illegal,which equals a dirty bat and gets all in a uproar when called out on it.i have told him he can check my bag any time he wants but still insists that i do.he says he doesn't know any one who does which is another lie as who did get the dirty bat to swing from,that equals that he knows a dirty bat player.from reading the other boards and such,the bay area where he lives is full of glass(dirty bats) and the reason a lot of leagues are going to metal only,no composites allowed.oh i know kids who swing dirty bats and i do get on them about it,asking why they use them,and here is what they say"if ya ain't cheating ,ya ain't competing",what kind of crap is that.if when pitching and i know for sure they are using a dirty bat i'll walk them by throwing completely unhitable pitches at them to hack them off,when they ask why,i tell them you play clean and i'll pitch to ya.

he asks why i know so much,well its called research,i don't sit around with my head in the sand and crying about the game being neutered,i go looking for answers on safety and such and find the 52 ball with any bat we use is the answer,no screens needed,hr will still be hit(by the real hr hitters),defense will come into play.
speaking of the present combo,our SS has been on the DL b/c of a bad hop from a 44 ball and it split his thumb and broke it.52 ball he still would be playing.

i'm also waiting on who is in this conspiracy that is trying to dumb down softball,and secondly where my money is coming from when this 52 ball goes into play,as it is in play already and i haven't seen one cent yet........
July 20, 2011
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
Sometimes, upon reflection, one regrets what one has impulsively posted. I apologize to gary c for name-calling.
July 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
No one is hiding info from anyone on here. The problem is if you don't fill out your personal info when you sign up (which I did not). It will not let you go back later to fill it in or edit it later.
July 20, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We disagree, Robert and that's OK.
We are in the majority and you are not.
That's OK too and no one's fault.
If you want to play a dumbed down game of softball
more power to you but
the great majority of us do not.
We are not monsters or cheaters or insecure
because we want/need to hit with a lively bat/ball combo.

I don't mind you disagreeing with any of this.
Knock yourself out but if you dish it out
you better be able to take it.

We don't need to be told by you how our game should be played.
We're telling you it's OK if you want/need a slowed down version of softball to feel safer
and happier.
God bless you
but we don't and like/want/need to play with lively equipment
which always makes it more fun.
July 20, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"We are in the majority and you are not."

Joe, just repeatedly saying it doesn't make it so. What empirical proof do you have that you are in the majority? No rhetoric please, just actual proof.


So using the 2011 bats that everyone under 50 uses is dumbing down the game, but mats, screens, hockey goalie equipment, run limits, and PPRs doesn't?
July 20, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
A lively bat and ball combo is essential to our game.
We need it for enjoyment, performance and adrenaline.
It trumps all the other concerns including being more safe.

First and foremost it's common sense
that using better equipment would yield a better experience.

I never met or talked with one PLAYER who wants
to hit with a lesser bat/ball combo
or thinks it's more fun.
Not one.
That would more than suggest a majority opinion
and by a great margin.

The Major Associations which serve senior ball
would have changed to the lesser ball if it was what they thought the majority wanted
to avoid losing participation through dissatisfaction including
SSUSA, NCSSA, Huntsman, LVSSA, SPA and others.

And lastly, in playing stick ball, through little league,
to whiffle ball home run, to softball, to back yard ball,
the bat/ball combo has always been significant to a positive player experience.
The satisfaction the comes from hitting a ball hard and well
is integral to the positive experience of playing our game.
Having pace on the ball makes for better hitting and higher batting averages and performance
which increases interest and participation.

Keep in mind.
We can't scientifically prove why bumble bees fly
but they do.

And lastly, we don't need to prove why what has evolved and is acceptable to us
is better or widely supported.
It just is.
It's the responsibility of any challenger to demonstrate how and why IT would be a better choice
which has not been the case with the 52 core ball as most reports of the experience of it
have been considerably less than satisfactory.

July 20, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
Jano, I don’t doubt that no one has admitted to you (or to einstein, for that matter) that they are dropping out of senior softball because of the hot bat/ball combo. The ones who are still playing, almost a decade after the composite, are for the most part, the ones who LIKE the hot combo.

I know lots of guys in their 30s and 40s (my son among them) who have left softball in disgust because of bat shaving and the game reverting to home run ball. Of course they don’t move up to senior ball once in their 50s because it is no longer the game they used to love (all the way back to their Little League days). The guys that move up are those who appreciate the senior bat, maybe because they no longer have to feel guilty swinging an altered bat. Their buddies brag over beers about the long balls they hit, and now they do it legally.

I’m not saying they all used altered bats, some were legitimate home run hitters and many refused to compromise their morals/ethics, my son among them. But lots of them are average guys who have become addicted to the long ball made possible by an altered bat or a senior bat, not their skill.

I don’t know many 50s or 55s that have left the sport because of the lively, less safe conditions, although I know a few. But among the 60s, I know a lot of guys that no longer play because of the overly hot conditions. And among the 65s and older, even among those still playing with senior bats, my discussions show a majority would prefer to return to the conditions of 2002, if not go back even to the single walls.

So the answer is not how many 50s like hot conditions or how many teams enter a tournament (down from previous years considering the demographics), the conclusion is that senior softball in general is down, across all age groups. We don’t have the numbers we should have compared to the number of older guys playing in the 1990s. And sadly, according to ASA statistics, the drop-off is even more pronounced among the 40s and younger, so we will see fewer guys moving up to senior ball. They liked balanced softball where their skill as a fielder, runner, base hitter was valued and contributed to the team, not offensive softball where only the slugger is hailed.
July 20, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
omar you are so right,you ask a hitter what he wants and it will always be to hit the hottest combo,just the nature of things.now ask them if they like the ball coming at them the way does on defense(aka pitchers,corner infielders),and it is another story,or ask the outfielder who has to chase this combo all over the place,and have to play so deep that singles are normally turned into doubles now b/c of having to play way back b/c this combo requires you to.
i play in a league that uses the 52 ball and it has a waiting list,the league that uses the 44 ball has open fields all of the nites of the week,b/c of the dirty bat situation,and the ego's of the composite hero's b/c the combo is so hot.
just seems to me maybe that majority that people say exists might be only in their own mind and not real.

also why is it when you ask this majority for their proof they have none?
July 20, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts

You guys have lectured me far and wide
for quitting softball if it goes to Sponge Ball,
Bob, right?
And now you quote we've lost all the true softball players because our game got too hot.
Which way do you want it, Bob, OK?
You don't get it both ways
or in this case, you don't get it, at all.

All the players who want and can play
are playing now and if you want to see
enrollment grow as it has in NCSSA every year
go with senior bats, good balls, HR's as walks
and equalizer at 1.
There's a zillion reasons why those who might
play don't.
Cable TV, Economy, Having to work,
Internet, Face Book,
Age of medication, just to name a few.

How do you account for the fact that SSUSA
broke attendance records right in the middle
of a down turning economy just a year or 2 ago?

You're just wrong about us,
who we are and need to be.
But that's not a crime.
it's a fact.

The Associations would jump if they thought
going with a 52 ball would pump up their attendance.
It not only doesn't it would kill senior ball
as we they know it, today
and outlaw, independent leagues would emerge
where we would play our game.
We've warned them and they get it
loud and clear boys,
rest assured.

SPA is coming back to HR's as singles
after an equalizer
which we've been saying all along
makes the game safer/funner
and we're right, again.

You guys are entitled to your opinion,
any opinion but in fact,
you're wrong about us
and the essence of our game.

Lively bats and balls are absolutely essential
to the enjoyment of the game we been playing all our lives, want, deserve and will play
one way or another.
Getting pace on the ball is more valuable
to the normal, regular hitter
than the elite or "slut" players.
July 20, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Jano
I accept your apology and thank you for it.
I will try to do better also.
Gary C
July 20, 2011
gary c
411 posts
As they saying goes
"IF B.S. WAS MUSIC THIS GUY WOULD HAVE A BAND"
I think we all know who that is
July 20, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Money, hot bat/ball combo! They're all relevant on why folks are leaving this sport. The problem is most of you want to blame one thing. Joe is all over the lively bats and balls are absolutely essential thing. He's problably right in his circle of friends. Mad dog, Gary
and others feel differently, as do I. But we're not gonna solve this here. I ask this question before, but now I'll go right to the horse mouth. Joe, how often did you clear the fences with wood or aluminum bats? But let's hear some details from everyone. What era was it when you start driving the ball out of the yard? This could indicate why some folks feel a need to proceed with the present day combo. Maybe some are feeling the joy of getting large in the batters box. Personaly I was hitting the ball out with wood and Hardwood CN100 on 285'-300' fields back in the day. Aluminum for me did not mean more homeruns, it just meant my bat lasted longer. It wasn't until the blue TPS that it went out more frequently. Let's hear your story? I post this as a new thread as well.
July 20, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
ncssa hasn't grown from the time i use to play in it,6 years back,still approx 105 teams every year,that doesn't sound like growth to me.if you were really growing you would close to a 150 teams bu now.not happening,see some of us actually do a little research on things instead of just running off with the mouth.

pricer posted in your new thread.lets see if the players will come on and actually say how and what.
July 20, 2011
Jano23
Men's 50
95 posts
gary c, thanks.
Jano
July 21, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
mad dog, you are absolutely right about NCSSA's supposed growth. The only reason there are 107 teams this year is that they changed the rule to allow guys to be on a roster of two teams! This resulted in a lot of new teams, but not necessarily many more new players.

Over this decade, NCSSA should be way up in numbers: more and more men entering the senior years; a growing population; better health care allowing men to play longer and recover from injuries/disease; better, more attractive facilities; better run tournaments. So what's happened?

And don't talk about money. Of course some guys are negatively affected by the down economy. But half of senior softball players are either retired or already set with pension plans, investments, homes nearly paid for, etc.

Senior softball is one of the most affordable sports there is. Tournaments run around $300—that's $20 bucks apiece for a 15 man team for a weekend of fun. Half of all tournaments are close enough to drive home each night and NCSSA scheduling guidelines favor the teams farther away with a late start in the morning. A glove, under $100, can last for years. Cheap shirt for a uniform, cleats that last a couple of years, what bargains. The only thing that is not inexpensive is the crazy composite bat—overpriced and fragile.

No, it is not money that is the major reason older guys are quitting softball, and none of einstein's list of a "zillion" reasons has really changed in the last ten years. We didn't have cable TV in 2000?! The only thing that's changed has been the introduction of the composite bat and the increase in altered bats as young bulls try to keep up with old bulls with their senior bats.
July 21, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There you go cherry picking your information about NCSSA.
Teams over enrollment.
You never countered SSUSA's record attendance over the last 5 years.
Slick thinking but just not true.
I'm gonna guess NCSSA has more per capita enrollment and participants this year than last and I don't know the answer but I'll find out.
What do you say, OK?
More enrollment in NCSSA or not
year after year over the last few years, yes or no.

You guys either intentionally or uncontrollably
miss the point and here it is.
It's the combo that needs to be lively enough to sustain interest.
This is DYNAMICALLY true
as there needs to be enough air in a basketball
for it bounce. shoot, pass, dribble and feel right
to sustain the interest of playing.

Look.
I have only one point and it's as true as flowers need rain.

Our game needs a lively enough bat/ball combo too sustain itself.
This is irrefutably evidential, now as before
and has never been in real question.

The 52 core ball and current bats are not lively enough.
This is easily evidenced plus
hitting the ball is counter intuitive which will create
more tension, stress and poor performance
driving more players from the game.
Plus, it kicks off a hard surface and will create more injuries
than the balls we're using today.

How come SPA is going to home run equalizer
and HRs as walks?
Do they have it wrong, too.
Are all of us who play senior ball now
everywhere all over the country immorally and intellectually wrong
and deceiving ourselves, guys?
Do you really hear yourselves?
Can you?

Professor OK.
Can you lead us a discussion of counter-intuitive dynamics
and how these might effect participation in our game
as with a more restricted flight ball like the 52?

This is fun, guys.
A real discussion with real arguments and almost real
participants.
Still, a good thing.




July 21, 2011
gary c
411 posts
AND THE BAND PLAYS ON!
July 21, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
But what sweet music!
And what would life be without music, OK?
Tell 'em what Nietzsche said before we became afraid
to quote anyone not born in America.
He said it would be unthinkable, didn't he.
July 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
mmm i think omar pointed out that ssusa was not growing like you say it is,in his posts from the past.so again quit just throwing crap out there hoping it will stick.we give you facts,you give nothing but hearsay and innuendo's to belittle a person's character.
July 21, 2011
Backstop man
17 posts
One of my fellow players in a ASA Senior League even complains about ASA bats getting dangerous. I told him, well lets get a wood bat league for seniors and you will find out who the true hitters are. No he did not want that he just wants to complain. I had a senior wood bat game a few years back and everyone had a grat time. Score 8-7.
There are senior wood bat leagues just search the internet.
July 21, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
OK.
I just spoke with a rep from NCSSA
and there's only 32 guys double rostered
out of the 117 teams.
Given simple math, that would show a sizable increase in participants from last year to this.
A new team, Oakland Oaks has just registered
this week with 15 more guys.

July 21, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
I wonder where einstein's rep got his statistics. That figure seems a bit low compared to all the guys I know that are double rostered, but maybe it is right. The rep probably got it from the webmaster, Bob Strand, who is very careful with his figures.

One might want to check the website of NCSSA at ncssa.info. There you will find the latest count as of 10 minutes ago. Here's the quote: "There are 1679 players on the 104 registered teams". How does einstein state there are 117 teams when the official count is 104 teams (which is DOWN from last year!)?

There are 117 teams that are "ranked" by NCSSA. Problem is that 9 of them have never played in a single tournament and 16 of them have only participated in one tournament. Obviously, 13 of the 25 never registered because there really isn't a team! The supposed roster was never turned in because guys joined other teams or just decided not to play. Even the remaining 12 might be teams that played once then disbanded because not enough guys were there—too many joined other teams or quit playing.

So at some point, 13 teams wanted to play, but never had enough of a team to register a roster. That's 156 guys at a minimum that have dropped out or joined other teams. And maybe half of the other 12 teams have had the same experience—that's another 78 guys. So maybe 100 to 200 men are no longer playing. Those are the ones that concern me when I state that senior softball is evidently shrinking.
July 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
omar quit going and getting facts as this is gonna go and confuse whiney,he doesn't like dealing with facts..........
July 21, 2011
gary c
411 posts
omar and mad dog
AND THE BAND PLAYS ON
July 21, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
Just to clarify einstein’s other concerns:

1. I have countered einstein’s dependence on SSUSA’s boast of the biggest TOC ever. Mad dog remembers it. When I supplied the facts, einstein dropped the argument. To repeat, the increase in the “largest ever” TOC was three teams! Less than 1% increase from the tournament from 2007 (before the recession). Yet with the population increase in senior men during that period, there should have been 10 more teams, just to stay even. Conclusion: SSUSA tournaments, like senior softball in general, is not growing as fast as the number of potentially eligible senior softball players.

2. I have never defended the 52 ball because I have never played with it. I would like to see a good ball, a safer ball, that still carries. Mad dog believes the 52 is the answer; I have no opinion at this point.

3. I agree with mad dog that the way to hit for more distance is to undercut the ball and thus it seems to still be possible to hit the long ball with the 52. I agree with einstein that it is counterintuitive to how we were taught to hit. I hit the ball square like einstein.

4. I have never defended home runs as outs. In fact, I have argued for unlimited home runs with those over a preset limit counted as walks, not outs. Seems a shame to hurt a man who hits a home run. But this only works, in my opinion, with a 1-up rule and limited number of runs each inning.

5. Don’t think it is immoral or intellectually wrong to want to play with a hot bat/ball combo. I have supported einstein’s desire to play under such conditions. There ought to be tournaments offering that option. In fact, why stop at the current hot bat—there are hotter!

My point is that most guys are not enthralled with “home run derby” and wish for a balanced game. Not seeing it in today’s softball, they are leaving the sport behind, some of whom have joyfully played for decades before the advent of the composite changed the game and some of whom are still in their 20s and 30s as ASA figures show. The demise of senior softball won’t likely happen before I am too old to play anymore, but it won’t be there to the extent it is now when the 50s are my age.
July 21, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
omar,it is not an undercut that i'm talking about,it is the normal swing we should have from day one,just need to hit the ball just south of the border on the ball,you can use a level swing to do this with also.any ball center hit will knuckle with no real carry on it,unless your are a gorilla.

all the things you see in the senior game participation,i'm seeing with the young guys,also.
July 21, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
sorry mad dog, wrong terminology, but same concept.
July 21, 2011
pitcher55
Men's 55
130 posts
guys,i had sai on a previous thread months back,send ssusa an email, and suggest we start playing safer. i did send an email that day. terry hennessy emailed me back the next day, and asked if he could run my letter in the latest edition of senior softball magazine( with a little editing). i said ok. my name is dennis wiley,check it out.
ssusa is listening and will make a change for the better,i believe. i am a pitcher( 40 years)and i think the majority believes as i do. it is rediculous to make us play at this level of danger. i'm no sissy and i'm not going to go play checkers, i pray before every game, that i won't be killed, as 10 other pitchers have in ssusa since 2002 FACT!!! if you want to return to a balanced and safer game,TELL IT TO SSUSA!!!
July 22, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Pitcher55:" ssusa is listening and will make a change for the better".

Maybe I am missing something; why can't "ALL" registered players be "Polled" & SSUSA receive ideas on what SSBP's want; then compile the questions together & allow "ALL" registered players to vote?

Do it over the winter months!! You vote via computer w/your SSUSA ID & you have a certain amount of days to respond; don't vote, then you can't comnplain. I do not like the SB's bat I swing them because that is what is used, but that is my vote; but that is just a small piece of the puzzle, I am 1/10000th (I think we have about that many members).

BTW: I never was polled for any of the present rules that are in place today!!!

The final results dictate what the "majority wants", then we will not have this constant feud on the board. I must say you guys are highly imaginative & intellectual in your verbiage; HaHa now!!!

I have played SSB since 99 every year & many have played more than that; we "ALL" pay to play & love to play, so should let our ideas be formulated into the game.

I dare say that 85+% still work & cannot take a few days to go to the SSB Summit; any days I get off, I do something with the family or work on my farm.

Tater50
July 22, 2011
saddlebrookrick
55 posts
I play left field and the junk bats and balls would make my playing much easier, but I like to have fun-should I say more fun- so I say keep the good bat and balls. Why mess with a good thing? You can get hurt driving to the field, probably more likely to.
July 22, 2011
perly
88 posts
Tater50

You've mentioned polling the players before but it seems nobody is listening. I suggest sending an email directly to the SSUSA with your ideas. I had questioned them on there tournement refund policy and they got back to me and were very professional.

Polling all registered players and giving the majority what the want should be satisfactory to all. There are maybe 10-20 guys on this board and sometimes they act like they speak for everyone.

Unlike you, I prefer the Senior Bats. However if the majority voted to use USSSA bats I would get me a USSSA bat and keep playing and must everybody else would do the same.
July 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
saddle,my left fielder thought that and came in,until balls were hit over his head,and into the wind,and not by the big boys.oh we were using the 52 ball and senior bats mmmmmmm......

perly a poll is an ok idea at best,but will always be on the batting side when voted on.i don't care what you say,it will not get any votes for a safer or defensive game b/c of the egos of the player who needs the technology to be able to play,oh i mean hit.they will not care that they will be putting people in real danger with this combo we use now.

why don't you just ask pitchers what they want in a poll and then go by what they vote in,you'll hear an uproar from all these guys who want to just blast away,as i feel the pitchers will want some way for them to throw real high,do fakes,make the strike area bigger and all this stuff that a pitcher can do to make it harder on a batter.would all the batters be willing to accept that,prolly not as we already have a couple crying about 1 pitcher who is trying to deceive batters now.

if we go back to the usssa bats and stay with the balls we have now,you will start getting the cheaters(and there are some in senior ball) on the move as they'll have to shave their bats to compete and try to make themselves look good,so just keep the senior bat and go to the 52 ball and everything will be even then.
July 22, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
What happens if the pitcher choose's not to sign a waiver?
July 22, 2011
saddlebrookrick
55 posts
Mad dog,I believe the 52ball speed when hit would be much slower and most balls hit in the gap would be caught,the whole game would be to slow and boring. Everyone's average would possibly drop 100-200pts and weaker hitters would suffer the most.I also think you over estimate the number of injuries from the good bats and balls and I think a wide majority like the game as is-so I hope the minority do not get their way by complaining all the time.
July 22, 2011
perly
88 posts
mad dog the idea of a poll is to see if the majority really wants the current bat/ball combo or something else, maybe the 52 core ball. I agree with you, most will want the current bat/ball combo. However if we're wrong and the majority wants something else so be it. Poll about everything, 5 run innings, time limits, HR limits, screens or no screens, etc. Gear the game to what the majority of players want.

Can't agree with polling only the pitchers. They are only 10% of the team. If a pitcher feels the position is to dangerous they shouldn't pitch. There are plenty of guys willing to take the risk.

You are correct about shaving bats. There are shaved bats that will out perform any senior bat and it's easy to find a guy to take your stock bat and turn it into a lightning rod.

July 22, 2011
pitcher55
Men's 55
130 posts
when you're a runner on 1st or 3rd,and a strong pull hitter is up,ever get nervous? you're at 60'. the pitcher is at 55' every pitch.many balls have been drilled close to me, that i had NO TIME to move my glove ONE INCH!! had any one of those hit my chest,HEART STOPS. face or head,lights out for good.any other part of the body unprotected,SHATTERED BONES.every pitch could be my last.
if you're a catcher or outfielder,you only have to worry when you're on 1st or 3rd.no need for you to want a change to a safer more balanced game like we played for years.
July 22, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
why not let the pitchers have a say in the way they want to pitch,you trying for the batters.let it be fair,let the pitchers pitch any way they want to,hell ya have a mat to see where the damn ball has to land for it to be a strike,and oh it is only coming in at less than 20 mph.if ya want tee-ball maybe ssusa can give ya that and you can go blast away.

oh by telling the pitchers if they don't like it to leave or play some where else on the field,is kind of asinine as that leaves you with no pitchers to toss you your cookies.so keep hitting middle with no hrs left,b/c your ego won't allow you to learn how to hit, but just blast away.if it is no big deal all the players on the team should be able to pitch.

if your batting avg is gonna drop b/c of the ball being used,mmmm maybe you should learn how to hit.i don't have a prol with it,11-13 in my tourney using the 52 ball,with a couple of 2b's and a 3b.....just saying if ya know how to hit the ball should not make any difference.
July 22, 2011
saddlebrookrick
55 posts
mad dog, I think I can hit as good as most players, but I can't complain as well as some on here who have their on agenda and you know what I mean. I try to give an opinion and you attack saying I can't hit-I'm done with you-not worth it!
July 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Rick, right on.
Sponge Bob?
Just keep talking.
You do all the work for me.
OK.
I never said anything about TOC
and have never gone.
I referred to overall SSUSA attendance in particular
Phoenix Worlds where I played one year with 28 teams
in 50 major where we used very good 44x375
Stote balls and Senior bats.
You've become inelegantly obvious in your cherry picking
desire to hear yourself talk and anal-yze at our expense.
You really make intellectuals look and sound bad.
And you agree with Sad Dog.
Wow.

Attendance in NCSSA where the balls and bats are hot
with home runs as singles has increased considerably
year over year which flies in the face
of your major argument and you just have nothing to say.


July 22, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
A not so hidden agenda, guys.
Get rid of ultras says Gary.
Not Combats or Toxics or Centenarians, mind you.
And let's use a less hot ball which would have to be the 52 core.
Same old story;
Same Sad song.

You want a slower game.
Find one and play it
and leave us to play our game.

July 22, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
einstein is a great player with a poor memory. Only a couple of years ago, when SSUSA was trumpeting "Largest TOC ever!" einstein was quoting that tournament as proof that the hot bat/ball combo was drawing players from everywhere. When I exposed the statistics, he dropped his argument then.

Attendance in NCSSA is up from ten years ago. The problem is that it is higher but falling farther and farther behind compared to per capita—in other words the softball players that are now old enough to play and are NO LONGER playing, even though some played all their life, and the softball players who used to play senior softball but quit, not from injuries or old age but from loss of interest in today's hot game.

NCSSA should have about 120 viable teams if they just kept pace with the growing number of senior age softball players. They have 104 teams, down from last year. Why are they leaving? Guys always left for injuries, finances, moving from area, other interests, poor health, etc. But the pace is increasing. What's changed? The composite bat, less than 10 years old in usage!
July 23, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joe
If anybody has an agenda it's you.You seem to know the higher ups in the
softball world and the people in the equipment part of the game.
Who knows you could be a bag man for the establishment.
Quit questioning peoples talent I have seen you play you can hit
but I know why you don't want defense back in the game.
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's a not so interesting quickstep, OK.
I have never personally commented on the TOC.
It was Phoenix Worlds I was always referring to
where the records were broken by SSUSA year over year.
And NCSSA enrollment is up considerably, year over year
regardless of the intellectual fluff you're quite fond
of providing us meaning you were/are wrong about
increased participation of seniors in senior ball as it is, today.

My agenda is that we were having fun playing with single/double
wall bats and good balls and something started to happen
for no apparent reason.
Balls got dumbed down and then Miken Ultra 2's were under siege.
I don't know the history well enough to know if this was the action
of those who tried to keep DeMarini out of the tournament/league softball but I suspect so.
DeMarini beat them back in court.

The result was we could no longer play with the equipment we liked
and were comfortable with and 52 core balls were introduced
as our panacea and Miken bats were made into the enemy of us all.

You bet I have an agenda.
And it's been loud and clear,
evidential and obvious from the jump.
WE want play with lively bats and balls just like always
and there's no reason why we shouldn't.
Everything else is sheer ignorance of who we are,
always were and need to be or
under and over the counter self interest
from within and without us.
July 23, 2011
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 55
65 posts
I'm not looking to get into any personal arguments but since the issues raised in this thread have a major impact on how the sport we love is played, I think it's appropriate for everyone to contribute their honest thoughts here.

SCREENS
No. I'm a pitcher, and would sorely miss the opportunity to make defensive plays. Screens are for batting practice.

EXTRA PLAYERS
I would not change the number of defensive players on the field because this would change the game too much. However, I would consider allowing an extra re-entry or two so defensive players can be rotated and rested throughout a game without having everyone on the bench in the line-up. The number of games we play in a 2 or 3 day tournament (especially in hot weather) really takes a toll, even on the best-conditioned seniors.

BIGGER PLATES
The mat had larger than standard dimesnions at the SPA Buckeye Classic, and didn't have a noticable impact. What I would like to see is starting with a 1-1 count. Standing around while as many as 6 pitches are thrown to a batter is not the most fun part of the game, but consumes a good chunk of our game time.

MASKS
Already optional. I wear one in Senior ball, but not in ASA leagues. I'm hesitant to make them mandatory (can't take the mound without a mask) because some pitchers would be in open revolt against such a rule, but to tell you the truth I would breathe a sigh of relief if they were mandatory. The other two pitchers on my team don't wear a mask, and I fear for their safety every time they take the mound. I always tell them "All it takes is once" (for a life-altering or ending event).

MIDDLE HITTING
Using the entire hitting field is part of the game. Unfortunately, so has intentionally going after the pitcher. I have contempt for anyone who would try to hurt another player, and I don't want my players taking retribition against the opposing pitcher if I've had some missiles come my way. It is (if intentional) the antithesis of good sportsmanship, and borders on criminal assault. The governing bodies have had a difficult time devising rules to protect the pitcher without detracting from the game. The current rule (up to the umpire to determine if it's intentional) leaves wide discretion for judgement. Before a player is ejected for hitting up the middle there should be a clear verbal warning to both benches, after which any ball hit through the pitchers box is an out with an ejection iof the pitcher is hit. As a hitter if you don't like having the middle taken away, then it's up to you and your teammates to be good sports and not let a situation escalate to the point where a verbal warning is issued.

It's pretty apparent that all the issues raised here are related to Senior bats that result in substantially increased velocity and distance. There are a lot of very strong hitters in my division (50AAA) but none of us are as fast or quick as we used to be. Does anyone disagree that this increases the likelihood of injury?

I like hitting with the Senior bats, but I also like hitting with my ASA bats. What I don't like -- and what I think detracts from the game -- is a player having to apologize for using up one of our 3 home runs with no one on base, or having it be an out for a player who rarely hits one. I understand the need for home run limits, because scoring most runs with over-the-fence blasts detracts from the game even more than trying to NOT hit home runs except when strategically advantageous.

But think about that ... does being put in the position of trying to NOT hit the ball as hard as you can add or detract from our sport? Yes, I know; you can hit the ball as hard as you can and still keep it in the park with good bat control. Nevertheless, we wouldn't be having this discussion if a lot of players did not see issues related to the increased velocity/distance with Senior bats.

Whether or not a player wants these bats allowed in Senior play, he is at a disadvantage if doesn't use one while the opposition does. And he spends more on bats because these things break much more frequently. For some players all the expenses of Senior ball (travel & hotel) are already hard to afford. But sales are good for the bat manufacturers.

Anyway, that's my two cents (more like a piggy bank full of change). I like playing no matter what bats or balls we use -- but I might have to reconsider Senior ball if screens or extra fielders changed the game too much.
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There are a zillion ways to make our game safer for pitchers
none of which have to do with killing the ball
and killing our game.
Raise the arc, 1 and 1 count, larger mat, rubber
HR's as singles keeping hot balls off the pitcher
and many, many more.

We fundamentally like our game and are tired
of being told something's wrong with our game.
Nothing's wrong with out game that one or two
small rule changes can't fix
but using lively bats and balls is SO important to our game
that yes, even screens would be better than dumbing down
them down.
It doesn't matter how many anonymous names are used
to trot out the same arguments.
Lively bats and balls are a must, here to stay
and there's other ways like masks/helmets
to skin the cat.

The 52 core ball is not lively
and will kill our game dead as a door nail.
It will change the scene and market place of senior softball
and all of softball which is why and how it's being lobbied for.
God bless America but we don't have to buy
what we don't want, need or believe in
and we won't.
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
"52 core ball is not lively ENOUGH"
sorry
July 23, 2011
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 55
65 posts
It would be interesting to see a comprehensive poll of all 50+ players on which bats they prefer and how many (if any) would quit playing in SSUSA tournaments if the hot bats weren't allowed. This poll would have to include players (if any) who already quit BECAUSE of the hot bats.

It's hard to believe that a lot of players would quit on account of not using bat technology that wasn't even available during most of their playing career, but I understand resistance to change and all of a sudden being reduced to warning track power.

I'll play either way, and I simply want what's best for the sport and its players. I don't claim to KNOW what's best, and I think we need input from more players to make that determination.

My guess is we'll leep the hot bats and the sport will be just fine.

One more thing:
I think the term "dumbing down" is bogus. Precision hitting and more defense could come into play, which is hardly "dumb."

July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Dumbing down is precisely the right term to use
because we'd be dumber than posts
to let anyone convince us that we are insecure,
warning track, immoral, uncaring or wrong
in our desire to use lively bats and balls
which we've been using and wanting to use since we was babies.

NCSSA uses lively bats and balls and we flourish,
support ourselves and have a blast when we play.
So do SPA, SSUSA, Huntsman and LVSSA just to name a few.

Sorry.
The movement to a dumber bat/ball combo
is wrong-headed and
doesn't survive the smell test
for self interest and sheer ignorance involving
us, who we are and have a right to be.

July 23, 2011
ChiPrimeMarty
Men's 55
65 posts
You have just defined "dumbing down" as letting anyone convince you that you are "insecure, warning track, immoral, uncaring or wrong in our desire to use lively bats and balls which we've been using and wanting to use since we was babies."

By that definition, you have nothing to worry about. Nobody will ever convince you of those things (though I doubt that baby einstein had those desires).

On the other hand -- by the same definition that defines "dumbing down" as letting someone convince you of something contrary to what you fervently believe -- "dumbing down" (to someone who opposes U2-level bats) would mean being convinced that lively bats & balls are absolutely necessary for Senior softball to thrive & survive.

Dumbing down thusly defined is in the mind of the beholder, and can be used to advance an argument on both sides of an issue.

However, that's not how I would define it. "Dumbing down" as applied to how our sport is played means reducing the level of strategy & skills required to win.

Now, you may certainly argue that hot bats enhance those aspects of the game.

But you haven't (at least not in your response to me).
July 23, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Marty
Thank you for your input. Joe always attacks when he is WRONG.
July 23, 2011
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
ChiPrimeMarty, Pitcher55, perly.....this discussion has been had before about the bats and balls. Some do come on this board wanting lesser bats and balls, but they are by no means the majority in SSUSA. When SPA had a survey in 2009, the results told us what the majority wanted. The ones that post on here believing that they are the majority in wanting lesser bats would not believe the results. Here is a post with some results. "SPA survey
The results of the 2009 SPA survey were issued this week & can be accessed thru their site.
There were nearly 1,600 players responding (don't know who or how they were selected).
For the question of "how satisfied are you with the current 1.2 bat spec (includes Ultra IIs)" 71% said they were somewhat or very satisfied while 7% said they were somewhat or very dissatisfied.As mad dog said, only the hitters would vote.
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I was actually riffing on the term
dumb and trying get multiple meanings
from it, guys.
Imagine that.
And old english teacher playing on words
and I do mean old.

Our game necessitates using lively bats
and balls.
Nothing can be said or raised
to counter this, ever.
It's given, obvious and must be.
We always want/need to hit with good balls and bats.

So the question is, is the bat/ball combo
hot enough as it exists, today?
And the answer as Sal pointed out, is
it IS a la SPA.
Is the bat/ball combo hot enough with a 52 core ball?
The answer is NO it is not given the whole of the evidence to date.

We're not arguing we need bazookas
to play.
We're arguing that hot bats insure
a hot enough bat/ball combo so we can enjoy
ourselves enough to want to continue to play.
It's that simple.

And we as a group have been denigrated,
abused, cajoled and disrespected because
we, ALL OF US, young and old
have been trying to make sure
we don't let cheap TDs or zealous
'new' ball entrepreneurs deprive us
of a successful and satisfying experience
playing softball.
It's that simple.

We are NOT criminals or insecure or unsportsmanlike or poor athletes or insensitive
or anything but interested in having a good
time and not being cheated.

That's who we are and that's whom
associations need to recognize and serve.
Those that do will receive our support
and those that don't, won't get it.
Get it?

July 23, 2011
gary c
411 posts
AND THE BAND PLAYS ON!
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
But the music is so sweet.
You boys have no so subtly made us feel
like we're wrong and have been wrong all along
when in fact it you who are in the minority
trying to foist your opinion on us,
the majority.
Not very American or sportsmanlike
or fair of you, I must say.

Lively bats and balls, forever,

July 23, 2011
gary c
411 posts

Comrade Joe
WHAT WOULD YOU KNOW ABOUT AMERICA?
You live in the Peoples Republic of Frisco
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That would be San Francisco,
home of the 2010 World Champion
San Francisco Giants and Legendary
NFL Champion 49ers,
cultural capital and
center of the Western United States.
I got here 31 years ago
and can't imagine a better place to live
in the whole world.
What a blessing and
what a beautiful city.
Tolerant, inclusive, intelligent, classy
and cultured.
Not for everyone as you help us realize, Gary,
but for anyone with spirit, intelligence, understanding, character and heart.
July 23, 2011
gary c
411 posts
As far as the Giants even a even a blind pig picks up an acorn along the road.
One since 1958 next one you will get 2063
I agree in Frisco you can have a coed team and it can be all guys.
nice streets You live in a roller coaster ride
FRISCO SUCKS! but you have a nice day Joe
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Keep talking you classless and gutless
'character'.
You are no one with nothing to say
to any of us.
July 23, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joey
you hurt me with your words
did they win a world series when i wasn't looking one in 52 yrs
and i don't think there is anything wrong that you play coed
do you use your ultra 2 when you play?
July 23, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're done with me and us,
Mr/Ms nobody of any concern or merit.
You're the responsibility of Dave and SSUSA now.
July 24, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Who is us? There is a big world out there not just Frisco.
30 bucks for a tournament must be a biggie
THANK YOU JOE HAVE A NICE DAY
July 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
and what makes you whiney anyone with something to say,not one bit,just a buffoon ,clown,snake oil pusher, who has no compassion for his fellow softballer ,as he could care less on whether they can be seriously injured or killed by this hot bat/ball combo we now use.so maybe your the gutless coward who won't stand up for his fellow softballer,oh unless they are about to be killed,then you'll stand there and watch,maybe that is your way of standing up...........
July 24, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
keep up the good work,
sad dog
July 24, 2011
gary c
411 posts
mad dog
joey is very upset you and Omar cheated and brought facts to the discussion. How about you bring 15 and I bring 15 and we can be in joeys big tournament.
July 24, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
620 posts
Hey fellas, on a lighter side, we got the Tigers who have won a couple series since '86 , the Pistons a couple in the 90's and the Red Wings have four cups in the last 12 years. Hey and what about those Dodgers? Cmon, boys let's keep to the subjects. This is computer MMA!!
July 24, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Pricer
Dodgers might be bad this year but they gave us Jackie Robinson
Giants gave us Barry Bonds. Pistons,Lakers no contest.Wings Kings you win hands down. Detroit LA i think i got ya.
Have a great day pal
July 24, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
don't let me go boston on you all, city of champs for the 2000's
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