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Discussion: check this out!

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July 24, 2011
bbullet
15 posts
check this out!
How dumb can this organization get? Pool play must have a whole new relevance. While we have done OK in pool play -- here are the real tournament game results.

We go 0 - 3 in Reno in regular bracket play -- Just went 0 - 2 in SPA bracket play losing our first game 18 - 3. 1-2 in Quad Cities.

Win the Midwest by beating a team from Michigan by 1 run (twice - one run in the first game of bracket play) This was in 100 degree plus heat in KC -- and the Michigan guys admirably played three games in a row!

AND WE ARE THE ONLY 60 TEAM BUMPED TO MAJOR PLUS!?!?!?!?
July 24, 2011
bbullet
15 posts
We certainly, as a team, don't feel good about our play in tournaments this year...does anyone know of a team that has been bumped up in the middle of the year - to Major Plus of all things - "based on performance" with this kind of performance?

July 24, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
You qualified for the TOC.
You were the #1 seed for this tournament.
Your record was 5 wins and 1 loss.
In pool play you lost 15-14
In pool play you won 23-11 and 24-11.
In bracket play you went undefeated, winning three straight.
You won 16-11, 22-8 and 17-16.

Pretty nice tournament.

Been in your shoes. The price for winning is getting moved up. Now you just have to prove you do or don't belong in order to get moved back down. Good luck.
July 24, 2011
bbullet
15 posts
So did many other teams qualify for the TOC. Reno, southwest, eastern, atlantic coast, texas, northwest,......there are many TOC qualifying tournaments. Reno had a bunch of teams.

By what I saw no one else got moved up. Unless you know more - there is no rule that says if you win a TOC - you are moved up automatically during the year. Otherwise, where are the other winners?

The price for winning a national tournament - no doubt should be moved up.

I am glad you had a chance to be in my shoes. I hope you had a chance to win a national tournament before you got moved up. Most people do.

July 24, 2011
berger
Men's 60
41 posts
You are correct bbullett (unless I'm missing something). If you look at the 5 teams -- on http://seniorsoftball.com/wc/wc2011/TOC-Invites-2012.pdf -- that have already qualified for the 2012 TOC (other than your KC Kids team)........

Double LL Roofing (FL) [SNC]
Master Collision (CO) [SWC]
Northern Virginia Force [WNC]
Robson.com (AZ) [SW]
SGC Runner Blue (UT) [WWC]

......I don't see any of them already listed as Major+, or having been bumped up to Major+ as a result of this recent rerating update.
July 24, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1223 posts
berger: "...unless I'm missing something..." hits it right on the sweet spot ... The ONLY tournaments which result in an automatic rating increase for the winners (except Major+), are:

The SSUSA World Championships in Phoenix
The SPA National Championships in Dalton, GA
The ISSA National Championships in Manassas; and
The ISA Senior Worlds (this year in Cocoa Beach, FL)

The single most consistent mis-conception by the vast majority of posters here remains the false belief that a team winning any TOC Qualifier event, or the TOC itself, will result in an automatic rating increase for that team. Other than those four 'automatics' listed above, the ONLY other reason a team is re-rated, either up or down, is based on a review of that team's performance over time, independently through periodic scoring database review, or in conjunction with that team filing a timely Appeal of it's current rating.

In a rare exception this time, one team requested that their rating be raised. That request was granted.

For more specific information, readers may wish to take a look at the posting near the top of the Message Board titled TEAM RATINGS Guidelines & Procedures, which has been there for over six months. Despite over 2,100 hits on that page, the mis-conception thrives, almost automatically!

July Rating Changes Recap

15 - Teams moved down based upon performance review
15 - Teams moved down based upon a granted Appeal
23 - Teams moved up based on performance review
1 - Team moved up based upon Team's request

July 24, 2011
turn2
484 posts
Is this the same Double LL Roofing the same team that won the 60 major last year at the SPA? There was also a Double L Roofing playing 60 major at SPA this year. Was this the same team?
Maybe not because I thought if you won a big event you got moved up to the next level.
Donnie
July 25, 2011
birdie
Men's 60
681 posts
Donnie, I believe that the SPA tourney last year went to a one pitch tourney because of the weather. The winners were not moved because of the altered format. Thanks Harry
July 25, 2011
birdie
Men's 60
681 posts
Donnie, My mistake it was the ISA that went to one pitch. Double LL Roofing I believe drop players from the Dalton roster and were re rated to Major because they only had 5 players from the winning roster in Dalton. Anybody can correct me if I am wrong but please be gentle because I am very sensitive. Thanks Harry
July 25, 2011
DoubleL10
Men's 65
821 posts
Donnie/Harry, Yes, DoubleL Roofing did win the 60 Majors last year. They did temporarily get moved up to M+. Harry, you are correct, they stayed Major because a number of their players moved up to 65 this year.
July 25, 2011
turn2
484 posts
Larry and Harry,
Thanks for the info. I thought it was one of 2 things. I was just wondering why they were not bumped.
Well maybe some of this years winners will be moved up to the next division.
See you guys in Manassas,
Donnie
July 25, 2011
Brock
Men's 65
46 posts
I think I can give you the facts. Double Edge from California won the 60 major worlds last fall and were moved up to major plus. About two weeks later they folded the team. I believe Double L Roofing is a Florida team. I play for Master Collision in Colorado. We were beaten by Double Edge in the finals of the winner's bracket and ended up third in the Worlds behind Double Edge and the KC Kids. For bbullet, I've been scratching my head trying to figure why you were moved up also.
July 25, 2011
Brock
Men's 65
46 posts
Just reviewed again. Appears we have two teams, one in the SS USA Worlds and one in SPA that have kind of done the same thing after winning automatic move up tournaments.
July 26, 2011
berger
Men's 60
41 posts
Hey Brock, if you, or anyone you talk to, ever figure it out (i.e., why / how the Kids were, justifiably, moved up), please let all of us know. Other than Al33 (who posted above), and those who oviously made this decision, I have yet to find anyone who has the answer.
July 26, 2011
bbullet
15 posts
Brock thanks for responding and at least stating that you had to scratch your head trying to figure this one out. When I first heard we got moved up in mid-year -- of all things -- I thought - oh well - because of all the hub bub on major - major plus teams they must have moved up at least a half dozen teams and we were just one of them.

But when I saw we were the only ones -- WOW -- based on performance?!!?!? We are not having a good year. There are are whole bunch of teams having a lot better performance years than we are. Your team is one of them -- and by no means --- I want to state -- make it clear -- that I think your team should be moved up -- especially in the middle of the year.

You guys won Reno two years in a row -- we finished second last year and went 0 and 3 in bracket play this year! You've won a TOC -- and done well in other major tournaments this year and last. (East - west nationals last year???)

We went 0 -2 in bracket play at SPA this year! Our major accomplishment this year is to win a 4 team Midwest tournament by one run in the championship game and the Minnesota teams did not attend.

The other thing that got to me was the organization referring to our record and run production in pool play!!! Does anyone think that is important? Some of the teams we played don't have their best players playing in pool play. As posted on this site (on other threads) some teams look at pool play as a warm-up or practice. And of course, when playing a Major Plus team they have to give up 5 runs and can only hit 5 home runs.

Our history THIS YEAR certainly points to the fact that pool play can't mean that much. -- we won a couple of games in pool play in two of the biggest tournaments of the year and were given the #1 seed -- should have meant something?!?!?! We preceded to go 0 and 5 after that. That's dominating the division!!! Move those losers up to Major Plus.
July 26, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
berger if this is the only tourney they did anything in,then why wasn't the hawaii masters who basically ran thru a 23 team div in 60 AAA in the rocking reno not get moved up,it is a TOC tourney.there always seems to be discrepancy's.
July 26, 2011
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
bbullet; just to clarify we have not won a TOC. We attended this year for the first time and did poorly. I too however scratch my head how you guys got bumped up this year.
Jack #30 Master Collision
July 27, 2011
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
bbullet,count me in on not understanding this move. Will your team be in St Louis Aug 20-21th ?
July 27, 2011
berger
Men's 60
41 posts
JonnBob, we play the SPA Eisenhower Mid-American Natinals this coming weekend.....which is when we plan to discuss the future of the KC Kids (short-term, and also long-term). The St. Louis tournament was on our 2011 tournament schedule, but the news of us being bumped to Major+ has sent shockwaves through our team --- to the extent that this coming weekend's tournament may be out last.
July 28, 2011
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
I understand the shockwaves we won ISA world a few years ago in St Louis had 5 teams 2 were aaa and spend half the following year in M+. I feel your pain, you all have a very good Major team but probably like us don't have the payroll to go against the M+ teams. I would like to see this Tourney do good being its so close hope your team comes.
Staff why not poll the other 60M teams that have played the KC Kids this year and get their say on this mid season move-up ?
Aug. 8, 2011
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
bbullet we are now a member of your club. Master Collision was just moved up to Major Plus to join you guys. I think the timing was a bit unusual as it was after the "FINAL RATINGS" were out. I would imagine in was in response to some whining from other teams but who knows. We had won a number of tournaments however several were only attended by a few teams and they were not won in a dominating way.
That said my biggest complaint is that we will be stuck in a division where there are very few competing teams. Hopefully at some point the "powers that be" wake up and address this situation. We will not be playing in events that historically have had 2 or 3 teams compete so that will limit us to about 4 tournaments.
While I feel SSUSA overall is a good association I cannot for the life of me figure out why they continue to ignore the high number of comments related to this issue.
Jack Davis #30 Master Collision
Aug. 8, 2011
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
bbullet we are now a member of your club. Master Collision was just moved up to Major Plus to join you guys. I think the timing was a bit unusual as it was after the "FINAL RATINGS" were out. I would imagine in was in response to some whining from other teams but who knows. We had won a number of tournaments however several were only attended by a few teams and they were not won in a dominating way.
That said my biggest complaint is that we will be stuck in a division where there are very few competing teams. Hopefully at some point the "powers that be" wake up and address this situation. We will not be playing in events that historically have had 2 or 3 teams compete so that will limit us to about 4 tournaments.
While I feel SSUSA overall is a good association I cannot for the life of me figure out why they continue to ignore the high number of comments related to this issue.
Jack Davis #30 Master Collision
Aug. 9, 2011
berger
Men's 60
41 posts
JLD930, I guess I'll have to take some of the blame for you getting moved up.....since I did mention your team's name in my July 24th message above. However, doing as well as Master Collision has done over the past 2 years, it makes more sense you being there than the KC Kids being rated Major+. Guess we my be seeing you again then, going forward.......if we stay together after this season, and continue to play SSUSA tournaments.
Aug. 9, 2011
goforit
97 posts
Berger,
It wasen't just your comments, i'm sure there were others out there behind the scenes that were crying on Terry's shoulder about us not being moved up. To be honest with you i look forward to Major + just to see what we can do. If you look at our scores you will see that we do not score as many runs as other teams in the Major division but we play good defense (which keeps the score down). I'm not sure that is going to carry over as well to the Major + division but we will see. The one thing that you mentioned at the end of your comment is what bothers me the most. Unlike KC Kids and some other 60 Major teams we have more guys closer to playing in the 65 or 70 age backet then the 60 bracket so i also wonder about us staying together. That to me is the hardest part of this, we have such a great bunch of guys and i've had so much fun playing with them over the last year and a half that it will be hard when decisions are made at the end of the year. One thing i can say is, we will play hard and have fun and whatever happens happens.

John Giesler
Master Collision
Aug. 9, 2011
JLD930
Men's 55
67 posts
Berger, while your comments may have caused others to complain about us I can assure you we were on the watch list. The pressure may have increased do the the comments on the message board. It is disappointing to be moved up without winning a world championship but it is what it is. One of our other players made a good point. Good teams might be better off playing only one qualifier and the world championships each year as it would reduce the number of tournaments won. Unfortunately if teams took that approach it would significantly reduce participation in most tournaments; and the lack of teams is already a problem in the Major and M+ levels. As John mentioned we do have an "old" 60's team (maybe an oxymoron)We have 6 players who could be playing 65's this year and we lost one of our better players earlier this year.
But as John also said we will look forward to competing at the M+ level. Hopefully we see you in Phoenix
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