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Discussion: Senior Bats

Posted Discussion
July 28, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Senior Bats
Why I think Senior Bats will stay!!!

I did not vote for SBs; I would like a Player Poll to see if the majority want SBs; but that is "MY" opinion.

Why I do not like SBs.
1. No Warranty (if you play a lot of softball, you could & probably will spend $1000+ a year.) 30-40 cuts for $200 is a bad investment!!!
a. All Senior Bat Manufacturers do not want (in my opinion) SBs to be illegal; they are making a killing. In the past a player might spend $200 (w/warranty) on one bat per year; Now they spend 4-5 times that amount.
2. Everyone becomes a HR hitter.
3. Minimal Defense.

Your Gentlemanly opinion: Pros or Cons

Tater50
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror"
July 28, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
tater you could of put any better.....even tho i'm a lucky one that doesn't break a lot of bats,i think your dead on with all points.
July 28, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
ops should of been "couldn't"
July 28, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Somebody must be getting a cut if they go nuts if you say the hot bats should be outlawed. Must be a bag man for the bat manufactures. Guess who!
July 28, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
oh for your poll,i would change the ball,instead of doing away with the bats,easier to control,cheaters that way.but if it is only bat or no bat,guess i would go with no bat.
July 28, 2011
crusher
Men's 70
388 posts
The reason Senior Bats sell is they actually last for HUNDREDS of swings, say 3 or 5 years for 98% of the SENIORS that play Senior Softball.

YES if you can hit 400' shots the bats may not last you long, however, that is not important as there is very few who can and the ones that can seems to bitch all the time.

I have hit many at 325' to 350' and the Senior Bats just keep on performing.

Just back off your shots a little and you can will only have to buy a bat every 3 or 4 years. Just use some common sense, however, not many has the control necessary.

I love SENIOR BATS.

C
July 29, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Crusher: "The reason Senior Bats sell is they actually last for HUNDREDS of swings".

I have bought 3 SBs since 07' (broke one in BP in cool weather); so that is a good investment; but I do not play league ball. Most conversations that I hear is that they do not last. BTW: I am a decent power hitter.

According to Crusher & his info, they last!!

Good Poll question for this thread & board.

How many SBs have you broken in the last 2, 3 or 4 years? Are you a singles or HR Hitter?

Tater50
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror".
July 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Senior bats will stay so that old guys can continue to tell their grandkids "Pappy hit a home run last night!"

Of course, those kids don't know that a lot of the Pappys weren't hitting them 30 years ago, and probably wouldn't be now without the special bats.
July 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
621 posts
The reason senior bats sell are because SB's are the viagra of softball. Nobody wants to admit they use it use because they need it to perform.
July 29, 2011
Paco13
364 posts
This is hate love relationships. Personally I believe that Utrip bats is all what is needed. I love when I get a swing and I hit rockett...do not happen often but it does happens...Hate it when at SS and big guy is coming to hit...knowing that my life is on jeopardy...SB will stay around for ever, even though the game now is 80% offense and 20% defense...we like chicks like the long ball. The most exciting Puerto Rican on this board, drink dos XX, stay thirsty my friends.
July 29, 2011
perly
88 posts
Crusher, I think you're on to something. It would be interesting to see the percentage of guys that get a year or more out of a senior bat. It's probably the majority. I play league and there are guys that get 2/3 years out of a SB. However, I bet on my tournament team every guys has busted at least one bat this season.

The bat controversy may go on for years.

Do we go with USSSA-ASA bats that can be shaved and become even hotter than SB's or stay with SB's?

Do we keep SB's and dumb the ball down.

Gary19 and Pricer, is it a bad thing that Pappy can hit some bombs now even though he couldn't 30 years ago? Or is Viagra a bad thing? Golfers hit 300+ yard drives today, they didn't 30 years ago. Cars get 30+ mpg today, they didn't 30 years ago. And I can go on and on with how technology has improved the world. But for some reason there are guys who think softball should go back to where we were 30 years ago. I don't get it?
July 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
621 posts
"is it a bad thing that Pappy can hit some bombs now even though he couldn't 30 years ago?"
Not at all, but only if he's bigger, stronger and a better than he was back then. And at the expense of who?
"Or is Viagra a bad thing? Golfers hit 300+ yard drives today, they didn't 30 years ago. Cars get 30+ mpg today,"
These things here do not have risk to injury factors in them. So that would be comparing apples to oranges. Perly, I have no problem with technology. It's all about the risk versus the tecnology. Is it really nessesary. The key word is nessesary. Why is it so important for pappy to hit the long ball? Is it about impressing people?
July 29, 2011
perly
88 posts
Pricer, I'm with you, if senior bats have a real risk factor and there's proof of increased injuries then maybe the bats shouldn't be used. My question is "Where's the proof?" Are there numbers to back this up or is the risk factor issue just a bunch of guys opinion, like the good bat/ball combo versus dumbing down the game opinions?

I have to believe if the SSUSA, SPA, etc. really saw an increase in injuries caused by the bat/ball combo they would want to correct this for the benefit of the player and possible liability matters they may have to deal with. To date these organizations haven't taken any action to stop usnig SB's so I have to believe they don't have evidence of this "risk" people are talking about. Or do you think the organizations don't care about player safety?
July 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
621 posts
Perly, you could be right with your statement about an actual survey or injury report. But I have not been involved in senior ball very long. When did they start requiring waviers for the pitchers? Was it from the very start, in the very first game or did it come afterwards?
July 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
perly, many will tell you that current golf equipment is outpacing the courses, and that is not a good thing. Many will tell you that shot-making is suffering as guys just hit it 320 into anywhere and then scramble to get it onto the green.

But keep in mind that there are no associations or age groups in golf that allow certain clubs or balls that are outlawed in others. Senior softball does, we have our special bats that no one else can use.

And is doing now what guys couldn't in their 20s and 30s a bad thing? Yes, to the extent that we now have run limits, time limits, PPRs, halos, and pitchers looking like hockey goalies because of it.
July 29, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
621 posts
Perly, here a a few articles for the con side:
http://community.active.com/message/921192
http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/composite-softball-bat-revolution-why-pitcher-has-little-time-react-batted-ball
http://sportsfieldguide.com/sports/?p=170
http://onsports.wordpress.com/2009/06/22/composite-bats-should-be-banned-facemasks-for-fielders-required/
http://pip.sagepub.com/content/222/1/37.abstract
http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/21706/why-home-runs-are-way-down-at-cws

The pro side:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/105411-advantages-composite-baseball-bats/
http://baseballbatreviewsonline.com/baseball-bat-reviews-bbcor-approved-bats-composite-whhaaatt/
Not many studys telling folks about the advantages of composites.
July 29, 2011
Robo2
222 posts
the reason why I like to keep senior bats is that they become the equalizer to those the have cheater bats. I remember players passing the bat and the the balls coming off that one bat like it was shot out of a cannon and the sound was so different. Now at least an honest person can complete without cheating. That being said, some still manage or at least are thought to shave senior bats. Amazing!
July 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
The sad lack of pride amongst old guys. :(
July 29, 2011
perly
88 posts
Pricer, not sure about the waivers.

Gary19, like you I wish we didn't have run limits, time limits, et al. Do you think these things are due to the equipment or the organizations wanting to control things? I think it's more the organizations wanting to keep the scores close and keeping games times on schedule.

Unlike you, I think the pitcher, as well as some infielders, wearing protective equipment is a good thing. Go to "softballcenter.com" and look at some of the young guys slideshows from tournaments. Many of these kids wear the protecticve gear. They aren't swinging senior bats and they still have the quick reflexes. Also, most of the young guns "Conference" tournaments use the bat tester so cheater bats aren't easy to get by the tester.
July 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I do think it is because of the bats. With the added offense they create I think these whacky rules came into effect to prevent too high of scoring, too long of games.

As far as the protection, yes young guys do wear them but guys in their 20s and 30s should be hitting the ball MUCH harder than guys in their 50s and 60s. Plus, keep in mind they are still using pretty good bats, certainly good compared to what we were using before composites, and even before double walls.

The craziest rule is the 5-run per inning rule. As I have said, used to be you had to get three outs to earn your ups. Now you just have to be bad enough to give up five and you get to hit again.
July 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
will tell you right now,if there were no run limits the participation would go way down.with our ages there needs to be some limit,specially when we get put against higher rated teams,younger teams,etc,in the smaller tourneys.there are usually not enough teams till we get to a worlds or similar type tourney.

in the bigger ones your gonna have game times that will make a 3 day tourney into 4 days or longer.also do you seniors want to play at nite with some of this real bad lighting and our diminishing eyesight.

you guys do a lot of complaining,how about some ways to help the game.

robo there is cheating in senior ball already,go ask reebok international about their senior bats sent back b/c quote "they broke with only 50 swings",some of these bats had been shaved,so don't tell me it is only in kids ball this will happen.
you truely want to stop the cheater,and protect the pitcher,use the 52 ball..........
July 29, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Run/inning rules is just the dumbest thing. If that is the best they could come up with to reduce/control the lengths of games then perhaps the game isn't worth preserving.

Control the bats, and games will go quicker. Somehow we were able to play the game the right way when we were younger.
July 29, 2011
stick8
1266 posts
Tater50 understand some may view #2 and #3 to be pro's.
Personally I have no issues with senior bats as long as all things are equal. As far as the business we see more and more senior bats becoming available and more bat companies getting into that market. AFAIC let'em compete with each other because that's a good thing. I would guess the Ultra II is still the most popular choice and if the other bat companies are serious about senior bats they'll work to improve their product to try and get more sales. Word of mouth is the best advertiser . If people like the product and it performs well word will spread. Competition makes us all better whether be on the diamonds or in the real world. Just my $0.02
July 29, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
19 i have been playing with time limits since the mid 80's in leagues and tourney's,so how is this new.we also played with hr limits back then,depending on what div you were playing in.the bats are controlled,by the same test that was first brought out by ASA,it is still being used by senior assoc's,so nothing new there.the prol with senior ball is that for local tourney's(teams coming from a 200 mile radius,or less)you'll have to many different age groups and talent levels.you don't see E teams in kids play,playing C teams without an equalizer of runs,and a lot of times the D teams have to spot runs.so if you want to go back to the 70's maybe you should start your own softball assoc........
Aug. 2, 2011
Omar Khayyam
987 posts
Tater, I agree with all of your reasons. Everyone knows that the senior bats, especially the Miken Ultra 2s, are more fragile than metal bats of the past, even the double walls. And it seems to be getting worse.

And what is this about making a product for a specific use and then having no warranty on it? Could a car manufacturer get away with not warranting an axle on a new car when it breaks on normal freeway driving? Could a television manufacturer deny a replacement on a TV that goes out within a month of use on normal current? Could a knife manufacturer refuse to replace a knife that snapped in the first month while cutting an apple? Yet we tolerate bat manufacturers who do not stand behind their product with normal use.

I have no doubt that bat manufacturers greatly profit by making a high performance, but fragile bat, and then not warranting it.

I know men who have turned away from softball in disgust because normal hitters (like me) have become home run hitters (like me), solely because of senior bats.

I know even more men who have dropped out of softball because defensive skills are no longer valued as they once were. It isnít that we donít all applaud the great leaping catch of a line drive or the over-the-shoulder catch of a fly ball. It is that too many of these infielders were frozen at third base, unable to reach a ground ball that was routine the year before the advent of the composite. It is that too many outfielders are tired of gigantic fields and giving up doubles on what were once singles, and watching the pipsqueaks like me hit the ball over their head.

I would add the fear factor. Iím still playing, and maybe Iím an idiot because Iím a pitcher. My eyes arenít what they once were, my reflexes are slower, and the ball is coming faster! But a lot of pitchers, and a lot of infielders, believe it is not worth the risk with the missiles now coming at them, and they, too, have left senior softball.

The only positive is that my teamís batting average has been raised, and Iím not the only player who is now hitting the long ball. There is certainly a satisfaction in that, guilty as it may be. But Iíd give up that satisfaction any day to play the balanced game of only ten years ago. Like you, I do not like senior bats because they have changed the game we loved for decades.

As to Pricerís question on waivers that must be signed by pitchers unless they ďarmor upĒ, this is a very recent phenomenon and a tacit admission by SSUSA that the composites are more dangerous than previous bats.
Aug. 2, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
621 posts
Manufactures can not and will make the bats to last. Not cost effective.
Aug. 2, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
621 posts
Manufactures can NOT and will NOT make the bats to last. NOT cost effective.
Aug. 2, 2011
MaverickAH
59 posts
Why is it that SB's & UTrip bats essentially have the same exact performance standard yet SB's are considerably hotter???

The answer is that the testing for SB's is seriously flawed & therein lies the problem! As is stands now, most SB's with more than 50 hits will begin to perform above the standard set for it. There mfg's know of the loopholes in the testing & take advantage of it. This why they won't give a warranty. The bats are purposely designed to pass a flawed testing procedure & then get as hot as possible. This is why they blow up sooner.

There is iherently nothing wrong with having a "senior bat". Just lobby for the testing procedure to change to insure that they adhere to the established performance standards already set in place throughout the life of the bat.
Aug. 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
maverick,the answer is,that senior bats are tested the way the first test that ASA had,that is measure the barrel for its center point and shoot a ball at it(i think at 60 mph) and see how far it rebounds.the more it rebounds the higher the BPF rating,anything over the 1.20/1.21 is considered to hot,oh this also done one a non broke in bat.so since the COP is rarely the sweet spot now you can see how mfg'ers get away with these hot bats

now usssa has gone to using the same test in a different way,they go up and down the whole barrel of the bat and it has to pass on all spots.i think they use a non broken in bat,but don't quote me for that one.

now ASA takes a completely broken in bat and does the same(test the whole barrel)and their bats have to come with bat ball speeds of under 98 mph when broken in,don't know the formula they use to figure it out with,but thats how they check.

supposed all these hot bat guys couldn't give you the info........
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