http://www.seniorsoftballstore.com

 
SIGN IN:   Password     »Sign up

Message board   »Message Board home    »Sign-in or register to get started

Online now: 0 members ; 5 anonymous
Change topic:

Discussion: Phoenix Worlds

Posted Discussion
Oct. 30, 2011
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
Phoenix Worlds
I cannot speak for any division, except for the one that I played for in Phoenix. I am only commenting on the 55 Major Division. I thought the fields were good, and the grounds crew was excellent in keeping the fields in great shape. Happy to have cold water in the dugouts at every game. The Director was knowledgable, friendly, and always on top of any situation.

I was not thrilled with the umpiring, except for the 2 guys that umpired my first game on Sunday morning for the R & R game. I am only going to mention the pitching height. I know it is difficult to measure the exact height, but it was way out of control at the Phoenix Worlds this year. I was pretty much restricted to 5 1/2 to something around 8 feet. Maybe I got away with a 9-10 foot pitch from time to time, but it was not too often, especially with those Eastern teams crying "too high". I am not trying to criticize the Eastern teams, because I talked with several of them, and they are usually not used to pitches above 8 feet, because it is usually raining, snowing, or windy, so they have come to accept the maximum arc is 8 feet. The pitching arc limit is 12 feet guys, and 8 feet does not cut it at all. I can understand a pitch within a foot being called too high or a pitch a bit over 12 feet not being called too high, but not a 4 foot difference. That is not acceptible to me and I know I was not the only pitcher that got handcuffed.



Andy Smith,
55 Major/60 Major Plus
Oct. 30, 2011
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
BTW, despite what I wrote above, I had a great time playing and talking and meeting players from teams that I never had a chance to meet, and those that I knew. Gary, that was a great sandwich, thanks! Hey Bruce from Utah Coyotes, hope your injuries are getting now, and if I was trying to hit you with my pitch, I would not have missed. Just Kidding! LOL! BTW Bruce, you still hit the ball great with those injuries. Good to see you out there!

Andy Smith,
55 Major/60 Major Plus
Oct. 30, 2011
pushin60
Men's 60
63 posts
If they allowed 12 ft. you would throw it 14, and you know it. You won't even throw strikes in batting practice.
Oct. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
You guys complain-GI from CJ&S actually got one called on me that we both estimate was 15 feet easily. Any more, I don't care as much about exact height as I do consistency calling for both teams. I bet he was almost laughing over that one.
Oct. 30, 2011
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
Ken,

Maybe 15 to you! LOL! I do not like pitching BP, so now I do not have to do it much any more.

Webbie,

I agree that I want consistency, but some what closer than 4 feet. Also, I never seen a pitch that is too high. LOL!

Andy Smith,
55 Major/60 Major Plus
Oct. 30, 2011
FreeAgent10
43 posts
Duke, I totally agree with you on the height of pitches.
Oct. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
I know, Andy. I actually started laughing in the batters box, too, because GI and I have become good friends and I knew he was just going to walk me. The look on his face was sure surprise on that one being called a strike. Maybe the only way is some type of electric eye device you mount on the backstop at 10 or 12 feet, or whatever your limit is and it beeps when a pitch breaks the plane.
Oct. 30, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Why is it that so many players think they can tell pitch height so accurately and that no umps ever can? Just so foolish.

"and they are usually not used to pitches above 8 feet, because it is usually raining, snowing, or windy, so they have come to accept the maximum arc is 8 feet" Surely you jest with this comment. No one could possibly type that with a straight face. Exactly what "Eastern" are you referring to, Eastern Siberia? Wow..........
Oct. 30, 2011
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
G19, if you are 90 degrees to the line drawn between the pitcher and batter you can come up with a pretty close estimate of the height if you double the height of the pitch and superimpose that to below the apex of the pitch.
Once you've done that many times you begin to be able to estimate it from other angles. ;)
Use the same method for 8' pitchs.
Maybe this will become a skills competetion in the nationals some day!!
Oct. 30, 2011
garyheifner
361 posts
Duke, you are absolutely correct. Experienced the same thing in 65AAA. One lady ump had the arc under 10'. Several umps had 10' and a nudge at times. For Gary 19, how did I know this. Desert West has its 1st back stop cross bar at exactly 6 feet. The 2nd cross bar is at exactly an additional 6 feet. Unless my 30 years of teaching went to waste, 6' + 6' =s "12 feet". I made pitches that were well under the top cross bar called high. When I pointed out to the umps that the top cross bar was 12', I got one grunt and one WOW! I also started getting a higher arc. This leads to my point that maybe the Senior arc should be 6' to 10'. It might be easier for the ump to picture a yard stick and a little more on the pitchers head. Few umps in the world know what 12' is. Maybe by going to a 1-1 count, more pitchers will lay the 1st pitch in and not play around with the higher arcs thus solving the issue. However, other than the arc, enjoyed the tourney and the umps hustled and acted like they wanted to be there. Mostly professional.

P.S. Again for Gary 19. At every tourney, I check the height of the cross bars to get a referece point. Most fields have 6' stacked sections. Some have two stacked 8' sections and it is much harder to get a height reference point.
Oct. 30, 2011
GI
Men's 60
164 posts
Webbie lets be honest, I was amazed that pitch was a srike but maybe it was lower than the pitch before that was at least 16 feet. I did feel that in some games the pitcher could throw almost USSSA but as you say and I agree as long as calls are consistant I know what I can and cannot pitch for strikes. I try not to throw a legal pitch if I am way ahead on the count. Never know when the batter may swing not trusting an umpire.
Oct. 30, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
we ran the full range with our umps,10' to high to up to 12+ not being called to hi.it was basically the only thing that was bad for the tourney,very inconsistency in the heights of pitches being called.personally for me,if using a mat it should be unlimited,if it hits the mat you have a strike.
Oct. 30, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Perhaps, but it sounds like the popular opinion is that only players know these "techniques", and seldom/never the umps.

Do you guys really believe that? It sure seems that way by reading posts on here.
Oct. 30, 2011
DCPete
235 posts
The 1 & 1 count and Unlimited Arc would provide a faster-paced game with more emphasis on good pitching & defense since the hitters would have a harder time making consistent flush contact.
Really don't see any reasons Not to make these changes plus the umpires wouldn't have to deal with all the "too high" arguments.
Oct. 30, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Gary19-I did ask that ump about that particular strike he called and the ump told me that he used the brim of his cap. If the pitch went over it, it was illegal. All I could say was, really?
Oct. 31, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Good pitching makes for a faster paced game. Those rules will not necessarily make the pitching any better, you can either pitch well or you cannot. And the silly 1 & 1 count (what's the hurry?) will do nothing for "too high". How can it?

Webbie, that is fine. I can see your frustration. My only point is that it sounds like only the players have these ways to tell pitch height, and the umps have nothing and always get it "wrong". I think you should know how absurd that position is.
Oct. 31, 2011
southernson
261 posts
"Good pitching makes for a faster game"? Really?

Actually it makes for a slower game as the pitcher is less likely to throw a nut consistently. A good pitcher will throw more pitches as they snip at the corners deep and short. A good pitcher throws more purposeful garbage pitches as a setup for the next pitch. A good pitcher throws balls in a zone that he knows the batter doesn't tend to like.

That usually results in fewer actual swings per pitch.
Oct. 31, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Good pitchers will control the pace of the game, and not allow it to become slow and for their fielders to become bored and lose concentration. Good pitchers might "snip", but the good ones will hit those spots more than those who aren't. AND the swings the batters take will not be a many quality swings as against a bad pitcher, so the results will be more outs and quicker outs than the guy throwing meatballs will get.

Now is all of this absolute all the time? Of course not, as both levels of pitchers are still throwing a big ball moving slowly.

But good pitching keeps the game moving in a positive manner. They just do.
Oct. 31, 2011
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Once again, Gary19 is sure that pitchers can not accurately estimate the height of their pitches. For an experienced pitcher, that is unlikely. I've pitched more than 3000 games over the years, and counting batting practice, pitched more than 600,000 pitches. I think I can tell how high my pitches are.

I have calibrated them against backstops, against an actual pole stretched across two ladders, and against some very good umps.

That said, I agree with the other pitchers here and probably with Gary19. Once I get a sense of an ump's range, I want consistency and I'll stay within it (unless deliberately over or under it). I haven't had much experience with an ump who is terrible or who has a wrong idea of height, so I, too, would be ticked at an 8 foot top for a 12 foot tournament.
Nov. 1, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Omar, in most cases the umps are experienced too yet get little credit on here. I am willing to bet most umps have worked more games than the pitchers have pitched. Yet the guys on here seldom seem to think they know what they are doing.

The ump-bashing on this site for guys our ages is just really kind of sad.
Nov. 1, 2011
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
Gary, absolutely right about the umps' experience. Maybe not the younger guys, but older guys sometimes bring 30 years of experience at a pace of 5 or 6 days a week. That's a lot of games! Nonetheless, I'm sure you agree that for whatever reason, some umps have an unreasonably narrow height zone.
Nov. 1, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
The Senior Softball bashing on this message board by a few guys our ages is just realy kind of sad!!!

The amount of games one officiates does not automatically make one a good umpire. Many umpires are reluctant for whatever reason to call illegal pitches. Could it have to do with speeding up the games. For any official in any sport consistency is what the players want and deserve. Simple.
Nov. 1, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
What is REALLY sad on this board is the amount of umpire bashing that goes on by guys our ages. By guys who can't seem to accept after all these years that they make, on average, MANY more mistakes that might cost them games than the umpires do.

Correct, amount of games umped does not make an umpire a good one anymore than the number of games pitched makes a player any more capable of telling pitch height than the umps. Yet everyone seems to think they can tell height to the 1/2 inch (just slight exaggeration there) but the umps are completely clueless.

It is both very funny and very sad.

Nov. 1, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Umpire bashing takes place at all ages, and just not softball. It really isn't bashing here, it has been more a commentary on what happened in Phoenix. Gary (GI) and I got a mutual laugh during the game on that one pitch.In SSUSA we have amateur umpires and they are umpiring amateur games. We all have to realize that and give them as much slack as we give ourselves to make senior mistakes! On the other hand, there is a reason that baseball is so reluctant to go to more instant replays. I do agree with checking Home Runs when they happen. But going to further replay will make umpires almost unable to function. They will be checking every call on replay. I even think the networks should take the pitch trackers totally off the broadcasts. The tracker on the TBS stations in the LCS was not even accurate. Let the umpires umpire and live with the result. They all work their tails off to be the best they can be. Look at football. The Refs are so afraid of not calling something that is going to be on a camera, that we now have 30 and 40 flags a game. I hope baseball never gets to that point.
Gary-where do you get off saying we don't know 12 feet? A lot of us have actually set up a pole or Omar's Ladder or something in practice just to see what a true 12 is. Oh, yeah, it's just Gary being the contrary person that he is about EVERYTHING! Oh, yeah, you will probably come on now and say "Webbie, I'm not contrary about EVERYTHING!'
Nov. 1, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
On the contrary, what is REALLY sad is people like you twisting everything around to make your point. I never saw where anybody said umpires make more mistakes than players. It's a no brainer that players effect the outcome of any game.

What players want is consistency and umpires that hustle all the time.

Nobody but you has said umpires are clueless. What players want is consistency.

Players and umpires as well should and do know what 12 feet is. Again, what players want is consistency.

You Gary are both not funny and sad at the same time. One thing you are though is CONSISTENT.
Nov. 1, 2011
stick8
1299 posts
AI33, when you say this: "Many umpires are reluctant for whatever reason to call illegal pitches" could it partly be because at least some of the umps aren't used to calling "illegal" while the pitch is in the air?

Nov. 1, 2011
stick8
1299 posts
Omar, not trying to be picky with this but since you've done your share of pitching in your opinion could you tell the difference if your pitch is 11' 11" height as opposed 12' 1' height? If yes, clue me in as to how you can distinguish the difference because I can't!! Keep in mind that I'm not a pitcher.
Nov. 1, 2011
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
stick8, No doubt that could be a contributing factor. However one thing calling pitches will do is extend a game. Make it longer.

Nov. 1, 2011
stick8
1299 posts
Webbie your so right about major league baseball umpires. When I attend Detroit Tiger games I always make it a point to watch the umpires for a couple innings to see how they position themselves, where they go to on certain situations etc. I can tell you these guys are in the right position on every call, no hesitation no uncertainty, no confusion. While they may miss a call here and there (Galarraga's near perfect game 2 yrs ago comes to mind)it would be a shame to put replay in a similar manner as they do in football. All that hard work and training they go thru (and they go thru A LOT from what I understand) would be thrown out the window. I can't picture machines calling balls and strikes
Nov. 1, 2011
stick8
1299 posts
Good point AI33. Some players will still swing at those illegal pitches. I might swing at the flat ones because that's what I like the best!!
Nov. 1, 2011
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
stick8, nope, I can't tell the difference between 11'11" and 12 feet, nor the difference to 12'1". I'm probably accurate to about 3 inches. Nobody could be really precise. Are you saying there is an umpire somewhere who will claim he saw a pitch go 12'1'' and therefore called it illegal?

What would be an interesting skill challenge at a major tournament would be a laser-determined height contest. Pitcher would either pitch at 12 feet, 5 pitches in a row, and closest wins, or pitcher would call out height of each of 5 pitches and closest to his guesses wins.

Also, stick, I hope you aren't this hard on your own pitcher. :=) A lot of pitchers take their work seriously, not only as to varying heights but as to location, and even things like spin and knucklers. If you have one like that, don't razz him when he complains that the ump didn't give him a legal call because you say it might have been 12'1".

Nov. 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Keep reading the posts. The players can tell height, but the umps can't/won't. Just kind of silly.

And yes Webbie ump-bashing goes on at all ages, so that is telling me that Seniors are no more mature than 20 year olds. Just getting sadder.........

Complaining about A call is one thing. But to me "bashing" is a trend, often without merit or basis, that is really sad for guys in their 50s and 60s.
Nov. 2, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Gary19-If you ask my wife-she says I'm 8 yrs old. Mature?-doubt that, but there will always be criticism of something. It's human nature. You weren't there watching the pitching. How do you know it wasn't exactly as they say it was? And this is the forum to get it off your chest. Yet you, in your infinite wisdom, choose to bash the pitchers who brought it up with no real knowledge of what happened. If 'bashing is a trend, often without merit or basis', I suggest you look in the mirror. You bash Senior Softball in almost every post you make.
I sure hope when you start the GPSSA (Gary's Perfect Senior Softball Association) that you find GPU's (Gary's Perfect Umpires) so you never hear that, despite your best efforts, you got an umpire that didn't quite measure up.
Nov. 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Mark,I wasn't trying to bash any poster in particular. Whining about umps and their inability to decipher 11'11" from 12'1" has been going on here for a while.

Sure, in any particular case perhaps the players were correct and the umps were wrong. But that is subjective since no one there had any form of a measuring stick, so it is still just slanted opinion.

Do I bash senior softball? Perhaps, but mainly just the bastardization of the game using what I believe to be facts. No one factually knows exactly how high any pitch is, and to carte blanche blame the umps seemingly all the time if just a bit much.

Are umps perfect? Even they won't say they are. Do they make less mistakes than the players? Almost always. That just seems to be hard for many here to accept.
Nov. 2, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
to me its not the 12' pitch that is the problem,it is when a 10' pitch is called to hi,or the 14' pitch is considered legal.or just the oppo,the 4-5' pitch is considered legal and the 7' is to low......your all right in that an ump can't tell a couple of inches either side of 12',but please don't tell me they shouldn't be able to see a foot or better over/under 12'.also the 6' mark should be even easier,as most umps are around 6' tall,makes it real easy to see.i have been playing the game at 12'(yep an ASA'er here)since the 80's,so yes i think i can tell real close to what is and isn't 12',i have done the bar thing for 12',used a fence to throw over that was 6' tall for practice.


oh g19 you do bash everything you can about senior softball,so quit lieing about not doing it.
Nov. 2, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
6' is seldom called correctly, but it is what it is and pitchers just have to work with that. 6' is not very high at all for a pitch coming from 50 to 56 feet. But it almost always gets called too low.

That is just how it is. Doesn't stop me from throwing it. If the ump calls illegal, the batter might still swing (usually good for me). If he doesn't swing, it is just a "ball" and no big deal at all. It just sets up the next pitch.

I only "bash" what is easily bashable.
Nov. 3, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Gary-you said the following:
What is REALLY sad on this board is the amount of umpire bashing that goes on by guys our ages. By guys who can't seem to accept after all these years that they make, on average, MANY more mistakes that might cost them games than the umpires do.

Correct, amount of games umped does not make an umpire a good one anymore than the number of games pitched makes a player any more capable of telling pitch height than the umps. Yet everyone seems to think they can tell height to the 1/2 inch (just slight exaggeration there) but the umps are completely clueless.

It is both very funny and very sad.

Then you posted:
The players can tell height, but the umps can't/won't. Just kind of silly.

And finally:

6' is seldom called correctly, but it is what it is and pitchers just have to work with that. 6' is not very high at all for a pitch coming from 50 to 56 feet. But it almost always gets called too low.

That is just how it is. Doesn't stop me from throwing it. If the ump calls illegal, the batter might still swing (usually good for me). If he doesn't swing, it is just a "ball" and no big deal at all. It just sets up the next pitch.

I only "bash" what is easily bash-able.

If I read this right, it is not right for us to criticize umps that miss high pitches, but you can criticize umps that miss the low pitch.

Are you 'bashing the easily bash-able?'
Nov. 3, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Not criticizing at all. They probably miss some pitches at both ends, but I don't believe I have ever claimed any of those calls cost me anything.

My point was I cannot tell with any form of certainly how high a pitch is. But, for me at least, I think I can tell pitches at the low-end of the range a little better because I have my height and line of sight to compare them to. I can tell, again I think, when a pitch is clearly above my head and hence just about 6' or more much better than I can tell in open space if a pitch is above a backboard that is not there.
Nov. 3, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Gary-'I think I can tell..." --gee, so do some of us, Gary.
Nov. 3, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Except I only "think" it. Read the posts, many seem to know for 1000000000% certainty. Or they have themselves deluded into believing that.
Nov. 3, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
New math, Gary? I never realized there was more then 100% of anything. =)
But a nice try none the less.......

Nov. 3, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
What can I say, I was going for emphasis. =)

And didn't you ever get more than 100% on a test with extra credit? LOL
Nov. 4, 2011
stick8
1299 posts
Omar when I ump I have an eye for 10 ft because I officiate high school and college basketball. 6 ft is even easier because I'm 6 ft tall. Now 12 ft is a different story. I'm sure some umps believe they can tell 12' 1, but I truly cannot. Sometimes if I call a pitch too high I'll sarcastically say 10 ft 1 or 12 ft 1 and most pitchers are cool about it.
We on OKI Players are lucky that we have good pitcher. We were unlucky that he tore his hamstring muscle 3 weeks before Phoenix. He tried to give it a go in Phoenix but he just couldn't do it. Our pitcher sounds a lot like you--works the mat and adjusts the pitch height, curves and inshoots so I never question his style. Heck I take my hat off to anyone who pitches--you guys are like sitting targets on the mound!!
Nov. 4, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
stick i'm with you.no they might not be able to tell the difference between 11'6" - 12'6",per say,its the 13-14' and above,or the 4-5' pitch that they should be good at judging.i,like your pitcher use everything that the ump allows me to pitch with,and get real upset when my team mates start crying about hi and lo pitches,as i want the same ability to do the same with my pitches.i don't get to pitch much in senior ball,but do a lot with the kids,and sometimes ,i swear i need to bring out a dang sugar tit for these babies,and even in senior ball there can be a lot of whining.like i have said before,if we use a mat,make it no limits.if it hits the mat,call it a strike.........
Nov. 4, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
mad dog, if you want to do that, fine, but you better make the mat significantly smaller. Unlimited arc with those size mats will make the strike zone more of a joke than it is now.
Nov. 4, 2011
stick8
1299 posts
Mad Dog selfishly speaking I think unlimited arc is too high--too tough for me to hit!! lol. Heck, I think 12 ft is also too high of an arc. In my view the perfect pitching range for arc would be 6'-10', like NSA is. And as I understand it ASA went down from 12' to 10' this year. I can understand how some pitchers would like the higher/unlimited arc (more time to set yourself) but are there a significant number of leagues, associations and/or tournaments who allow the unlimited arc near where you live?
Nov. 4, 2011
Mr. Manassas
230 posts
I do think that some of the umps were letting the pitchers go a bit too high.(13-15) They were generally consistant and that is all you can ask for but I do think that a lot of the umps need to check out what 12 feet really is. I know that it is a tough job...having to call the pitch moments after it is released.
Nov. 4, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Just a thought. In those situations where you think (or think you know) that the ump is letting the pitches get too high, have your pitcher mix in the same pitch. If you think the height is a problem for your batters, maybe it would be one for theirs too.

Have your pitcher climb the ladder until the ump does call illegal, then you have set the limit for that game and everyone can proceed playing ball.
Sign-in to reply or add to a discussion or post your own message and start a new discussion. If you don't have a message board account, please register for a free nickname. It will only take a moment.
Senior Softball-USA
Phone: (916) 326-5303
Fax: (916) 326-5304
2701 K Street, Suite 101A
Sacramento, CA 95816
Send us e-mail
Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts International Softball Tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

Follow us on Facebook

Partners