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Discussion: Ratings on team in championship game

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Nov. 8, 2011
Crazy Joe
10 posts
Ratings on team in championship game
IF they make the winner move up why dont the team that came in second playing in the championship game move up also
Nov. 8, 2011
smooth01
Men's 50
122 posts
Because they placed second ! The second place team doesn't even get a T-Shirt or a hat. Why would you move up a team that does not win anything ?
Nov. 8, 2011
ShaneV
Men's 55
382 posts
2010 World Championships 50AAA Wolfpack Softball 2nd Place.

February 17, 2011 having done nothing else, re-rated 50Major. So it's not automatic like 1st place but it's certainly possible.

ShaneV
Nov. 9, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
personally,it think the top 3-4 teams in the world tournament should be moved up,it prolly is only a bit of luck that only one of them won the championship,and only one gets to win it.
Nov. 9, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1282 posts
SSUSA will be evaluating all of the teams that played on Sunday in Phoenix this year for purposes of possible rating adjustments, especially in the brackets of more than 16 teams. The Champions (except in Major+) have been raised in rating, but it is reasonable to assume there will be many others elevated, based on their performances at the World Championships.
Nov. 9, 2011
rightrj1
Men's 55
211 posts
Staff??.....What would the process be of moving teams that played on Sunday up to the higher divisions?? # of games played? Who they played? Scores of their games? I'm sure we all would like to know what your thinking is...If all the teams that made it to Sunday are being reevaluated & since you can at your desire change YOUR own RULES in regards to this, why don't you just say if you finish in the TOP 10 of a bracket that has more then 16 teams, all top 10 finishers will be moved up in division or better yet just DON't have a MAJOR + division! That way you would have had 40 teams in the 50 majors division & not just 6 Major+ teams.
Nov. 9, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1985 posts
I think what Staff means that if a team that made it to Sunday in a large division and has won a lot of tournaments, they may be moved on that basis, but I hardly think if a team made it to Sunday for the first or second time that they would move them. They try to take in the whole picture of the whole year and hopefully just move teams that warrant moving. Believe me, they take a lot of time and discussion when moving teams.
Nov. 9, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
rightrj1, There were actually 7 teams in the 50 Major-plus division, not 6, Plenty for a separate division ... NOT!!!!!!!!!!
Don't most teams make it to Sunday? You made some good points.
Nov. 10, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1985 posts
Jawood-We had 22 teams in our division and 8 made it to Sunday-and all were competitive. 55AAA was a very strong division That is the type of division I'm talking about.
Nov. 10, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1282 posts
There are four ways a team's rating may change -

• Winning the National or World Championship season-ending tournament of ISA, ISSA, SPA or SSUSA (automatic move up, except for Major+), with no appeal rights to be lowered for the following season;
• A move up due to roster composition for a team that has more than three players with out-of-rating history during the preceding two Seasons;
• A request by the team for an increase in their rating. This is rare, but actually happened yesterday in the case of an 80-AAA team asking to play 80-Major in Las Vegas. [A couple years ago, a team's players had pestered the manager into filing an Appeal to be moved down from Major to AAA. The manager filed and submitted the paperwork, and on the front page of the package was a Post-It sticky, upon which he had written and signed: "Please do NOT grant this appeal. We can and should play at the Major level."]; and
• Performance review. We strongly believe there is no better place than a large bracket of teams from across the country playing in the same tournament to evaluate them, both individually and as a group. Especially in the larger groups, a logical starting point would be to look to those teams that were playing on Sunday.

If you (rightrj1) presumed we are talking about raising any team that played on Sunday, that would be incorrect. It's just a logical starting point to look at the strongest teams. The Champions will get the increase as above, but there are other teams that should, and likely will, be increased in rating based on performance, including their overall record and run production/differential numbers. This is especially true in the historically larger groups: 50-Major (32), 50-AAA (29), 55-Major (19), 55-AAA (22) and 60-AAA (30). It wasn't all that long ago that the 'Final Four' in most larger brackets at the World Championships were moved up routinely.

Nov. 10, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Webbie, looks like you had a great tournament. If a division (Major-plus) can't get more than 7 teams for a World Tournament held in Arizona with great weather, then it's not worth even having it. The Western Nationals had 2 teams and the Eastern Nationals had zero! Have not seen anything that is going to improve the number of teams, especially since they raised the runs per inning and HR rule so high. What Major teams are going to want to play in that?
Nov. 10, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1985 posts
We've talked about that, Jawood. I don't know what the answer is. But, there is success here, too. Look at the 5 divisions with 19 or more teams. But, when they move the major teams to major plus they too often just break up. Do you think major teams are going to be any happier if they dissolve the major plus division into the major division?? How many major teams will break up then?? 50 and 55 major both had a tremendous turnout. A move to 3 divisions may affect that very negatively.

I wish there was an answer, but I don't see a good one yet.
Nov. 10, 2011
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Personally I really feel that there should be only 2 divisions. Upper and lower. Name them what you want. There would be less sand bagging. Either you're Good or your Bad. All this evaluating. Evaluating what?
I'm a man and you're a man, I'm 50 and your 50. Why should I or You get favoritism? Some of us put work in to be 700 plus hitters, while other sit on there A's and what things given to them. Stop crying. Get you butts out and PRACTICE. You will get better. If you don't, just quit! But stop looking for hand outs. All I hear is " Slow it down so I can Play" that sounds like something a girl would say.
Oh yea JMO
Nov. 10, 2011
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
LOL..Evaluating..PS I'm 60 and you're 60. Heck I'm 60 and you're 50, and I still won't cry about it.
COMON MAN!!
Nov. 10, 2011
billcoo
35 posts
What I dont understand..
aa and aaa combined..
aa win aaa second both teams go to toc.
aaa win aa second only winner goes..
Does this seem fair????
Nov. 10, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
My Lord does canljack make sense! =)

To use an old cliche, we all put our pants on one leg at a time. To break a relatively small group of men into four divisions and, what, six or seven age groups is just creating waaaaay too many brackets.

What he said is priceless. You are either good or you are bad. That is great!
Nov. 10, 2011
Fastsam
Men's 60
55 posts
I know some guys who work out everyday play in 3 rec leagues during the week and come out in senior tourneys and hit 550 -600 another guy on our team just plays in our tourneys about twice a month and hits 700-750 with some of the hardest shots you would want to see. I played pro ball for 5 yrs and I know a lot of players who worked harder then me in high school and never even got a college scholarship. Some people can workout everyday and never be great because of God Given Talent Born with the goods. Working out can only go so far. God given talent. That will tell the good from the bad.
Nov. 10, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
fastsam has really made the post of the day,some have it,some don't...i'm lucky as i have some talent,just wished i knew it as a youngster(more like lack of confidence in myself).i have helped guys and no matter what they did,they could only do so much,like sam says ya need talent to go along with the work.i think there should be 3 div's and the age groups are good to go as they are.as i have reach 60,i can see the big difference between when i was playing in the 50/55 groups.legs start to go real quick up at the 60 and over groups,just saying.....arms a tad weaker....reactions tiny bit slower...eyes changing.i'm fortunate enough to still be able to swing a bat real good,even the kids don't mind me playing with them b/c of it,but i get all the sun dial jokes when playing with them....

so no 50's should not be playing against the 60's.....would you say 15 yr olds should play against 18 yr olds,or 20 yr olds.... i know its the oppo of the older groups,but the same idea....

and yes i do drop down and play with the 55's on occasion,and was just asked to go to vegas with a team of 55's next week,wish i could of,but home things have to get done first...
Nov. 10, 2011
Duke
Men's 60
720 posts
I know not much will change, before I die, and nothing will be done, unless we try. I will throw my 2 cents worth in here. I think in most tournaments, there appears to be enough teams in all 4 levels of play in the 50's/55's. I now plan on playing again in the 60's. 4 levels of play might be good for the 50's and 55's. From playing in the 60's, 3 may be enough. My average 60 Major team gave some 60 Major Plus teams a go for their money. It did not seem that the Major plus teams were much better than my team. Could be the increase in age? I really do not know. Maybe go to 3 divisions in the 65's too. From 70 and above go to 2 divisions. The 75's already have only 2 divisions. I really do not know what the answer is here to make everyone happy or at least the majority.

I had someone call me today to see how my 60 Major Plus team was coming along. I told him that we are almost there, but need to get some responses from several maybes. In addition, the bordering rules have handcuffed our efforts for some 5 players now. With so few Major Plus teams in any age bracket, you would think that they would lift that rule in that division, if not all divisions. That is another issue.

JMHO,

Andy Smith,
55 Major/60 Major Plus

Nov. 10, 2011
Omar Khayyam
1000 posts
Fastsam is so right. We all know it—there are guys who are naturally gifted and stand out. They may or may not work out, take batting practice, etc., but they are the stars of every team they are on, and have been since grade school.

When I'm not in a game at a tournament, I usually go watch other teams play. Watch the Major+ teams play, no matter what their age group—smooth, crisp, power, speed, quick reactions. Add to that the good habits formed over years of playing, and they are superlative athletes.

I play with about 100 different guys every week in league play. Most of them could NEVER achieve that level of excellence. I admire those who work out, take batting practice, stay in shape, play a lot—they are maximizing what talent they do have. I'm in that category myself, but I have no illusions I could ever play at Major+ level—I'm not even a star on my Major team. Nope, I play for the enjoyment, the friendship, the athletic exercise, to win—probably in that order. I don't have any hope of being a Major+ player.

Not all such naturally gifted athletes play Major+. I know lots of them playing on a Major team, or even a AAA team for a variety of reasons. They are fun to watch. Some are even impact players on their teams. But hard work didn't get them there—they were always superior athletes.

So senior softball has to be a sport that accommodates the great majority (95%?) of aging athletes that want to play softball but will never be a Major+ level athlete. One way to do it is age rankings. Another way is different levels from AA to Major+. But if the needs of the majority aren't taken into account, senior softball will degenerate to a few barnstorming exhibition teams—fun to watch but not doing any thing for me.
Nov. 11, 2011
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
401 posts
Nice topic and well put Omar.
Nov. 11, 2011
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
Yea, Yea, Yea, I know a lot of Guys who are phyically God gift to the human race, but when they didn't use that god given talent, they lost it. And you are so right, some of us never did have it from the get go.
But I've never saw a person who did practice and didn't get better. They have always walked away better than when they first started out. Its not just getting out there and hitting the ball, it how you practice hitting the ball.
Comom Man!!!!!


So go to 3 divisions
1. Competetive A- Serious 50,55,60,65-75
2. Competetive B- Recreation 50,55.60,ect
3. Competetice C- Buddy league,see old friends have a few drinks talk about old times.Wannabees, any age, non competetive.

I know this is nothing but talk, so try and amuse your self. BUT IF.
Nov. 11, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
kennard,those guys who did have,get it back real quick tho when they start back up.as for the less talented guys who do practice,yes they do improve,but an AA player can practice all he wants,but will never be able to play up to the M+ status,just saying......

your divs not a bad idea,how about adding this,a higher age bracket can have 1 or 2 guys from the younger age bracket 1 bracket below them,as long as they are playing in the same level or lower.

for number 3,sounds good but i think you would need to have a little age bracket constraint ,maybe it could be the majority rules for age...aka team has 12 players(lets use this for a minimum as most teams are this big)5 are 60-64,4-55-59,1-65+,2-50-54,to me this would run as an 55 team for the 6 being under 60,or possibility it could run as a 60 team.we could also do this as the over the line people do,and add up the ages for div's,that way the separate the old guys from the youngens.
Nov. 11, 2011
Sweet P
Men's 60
169 posts
SSUSA Staff, why was the LVSSA World tournament (now part of SSUSA) excluded from the list of championship events which result in winning teams being automatically moved up? I would think any team winning a world tournament with more than 6-teams in a division would be moved up also!
Nov. 11, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1282 posts
Sweet P - That will be the case beginning with the 2012 event. It has not been previously because the LVSSA and the SSUSA had different roster composition rules. Those composition rules have now been conformed, and the combined LVSSA/SSUSA World Masters Winners (except for Major+) will receive the automatic rating increase in the future.

Nov. 11, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
15 year olds do compete against 18 year olds in many sports. It is called VARSITY athletics. Not a lot can, but two of my kids did, and no crying at all about an age difference. You just lace them up, go out, and play.
Nov. 11, 2011
Hippe
Men's 50
13 posts
Here`s one for ya, say a team wins just about every tourny they `re in but doesn`t win AZ or a TOC because they don`t want to,in fear they will be moved up, should they be moved up OR a team hits a hot streak and wins one tourny all year and its a major one should they be moved up ? My feelings are teams should be checked out all year how many HRs they hit how many runs they score and the level of the competition in the tourny. It might help out with the evaluation of a team
Nov. 12, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Hippe, you make a valid point. My question is who would even both to show up in those tourneys if they aren't trying to win? If you aren't there to win, no point to being there.
Nov. 12, 2011
Hippe
Men's 50
13 posts
Gary19 True but some teams may think 2nd place and staying in their division is better than winning and getting pushed up
Nov. 13, 2011
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
While all this discussion is heatlhy and many of everyone's ideas would be good for the game, I have come to the realization that the brass is going to do what the hell they want and it doesn't matter what we want. They have worn me down and I am getting tired of fighting it.

Gary19, it is mind blowing that a team would rather place second than win a championship to avoid being moved up, but there is something to be said about finishing third or fourth instead of second, that is how stupid it is to move a team up based on one tournament.

If you're not first, you're last!
Nov. 13, 2011
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Yep, when you are forcing guys to make those kinds of choices, as silly as that choice is, something does seem fundamentally wrong.
Nov. 14, 2011
canIjack
Men's 60
322 posts
I have come to the realization that the brass is going to do what the hell they want and it doesn't matter what we want. SO TRUE,JAYWOOD,SO TRUE.
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