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Discussion: Moving on up

Posted Discussion
Jan. 6, 2012
Dillon1
12 posts
Moving on up
This is in response to the NATIONAL RATINGS REVIEW • December, 2011 Actions & Decisions post. I play for the Fangrabbers 55's. A new team that has played one tournament,(Las Vegas Winter Worlds) as a major team. We placed 2nd in the tourney and got moved up to major-plus as a result. I wouldn't mind being moved except we'll be playing the same small number of teams over and over again because of the lack of major-plus teams. I have two questions: One, why wasn't the Nor Cal Reds moved up due to beating us to win the Las Vegas Winter Worlds? Two, if we play the Nor Cal Reds in a 2012 tourney because of a lack of major-plus teams, will we have to give them 5 runs? Best regards, Leon
Jan. 6, 2012
kbl
Men's 60
529 posts
Dillon1...i just looked at your results in Vegas....just wondering why ur team forfeited a game in the loser's bracket.
thanks, ken
Jan. 6, 2012
Dbax
Men's 60
1279 posts
KBL...if you look at the game they forfeited, it meant absolutely nothing to either team.
Jan. 7, 2012
kbl
Men's 60
529 posts
Dbax..with all due respect, i would never want my team to forfeit a game. thanks, ken
Jan. 7, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
So with no previous track record, and just one runner-up finish, you get moved up while the team that beat you didn't?

Things that make you go hmmmmm........
Jan. 7, 2012
tg69
307 posts
Just curious.How can you forfeit a game in the losers bracket and not be elimanated.Wouldnt that be your second loss?
Jan. 7, 2012
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2663 posts
Sounds like a triple elimination tournament, like the ISA Senior Worlds in Daytona last season.
Jan. 7, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
There has to be more to this that what we read.
Perhaps many players from another team 'requiring' the start at the 'major' level. When true new teams start at the 3A level.
My money is on too many players rostered at the M level to start in 3A.
As for the giving up the game, ie forfeiting, I feel you should have been eliminated as a 2nd loss and possible fined for not allowing the other team to play.
We do go there to play, not to stand around and watch.
But One T and a move up that in itself seems out of proportion from the assns own words on that but that is another reason I question all info provided here.
As for SSUSA's stand refer to info available in searches for this on here or in the senior softball newspaper.
But your right on the brackets not being very good in that M+ division. They too vary between where they are also.
Jan. 7, 2012
Dbax
Men's 60
1279 posts
kbl...I totally agree with you. Forfeiting a game is a joke, and they have made a rule against it. The triple elimination is nothing unusual. SSUSA has had it for years. Part of the five game guarantee. If you lose your first two in the elimination brackets you are still alive.
Jan. 7, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Try this on for a reason... HOME RUNS
Just how many did you score, make it easy an average per game. We know Majors are allowed 7...
Perhaps you know the Reds # as well since you played them twice.

Jan. 7, 2012
angus73
Men's 50
97 posts
As a member of the team that took third in the same bracket we played Fangrabbers twice in bracket play. Won the first game lost the second.

As far as Fangrabbers purposely forfeiting one of their bracket games, it is because you are guaranteed 5 games in bracket play (SSUSA) and playing that game @ 8:30 pm ment no difference except it saved them from playing the extra game. Which ment in my eyes they suffered nothing by losing.

SSUSA has stopped loop hole, as mentioned by Dbax, if you now purposely forfeit a game in bracket play you also forfeit the next game.

As far as being moved up, could it be the number of major+ players on the roster ? I know the number of allowable higher ranked players has dropped.
Jan. 7, 2012
pattontax
10 posts
We have 2 guys that played Major Plus within the last 2 years. We did hit our 7 home runs a game and so did the Nor Cal Reds. We also lost to California Energy in our first round robin game, and they hit plenty of home runs against us too. So we lost 2 games that counted. We forfeited our game on Saturday night that would have begun between 8 and 9. Win or lose we would played at 8 on Sunday morning, so we decided not to play. We did give the team we would have played Saturday night a least 2 hours notice that we were not going to play them. We the new rules we obviously won't do that again.

I don't have a problem moving up to Major Plus, but if we get moved up than the Nor Cal Reds should be moved and maybe the California Energy team. I played 50 Major Plus for 4 years and playing the same team the best 2 out of 3 on Sunday is not all that much fun. And spotting runs to teams like the Nor Cal Reds or California Energy is a joke.
Jan. 7, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
pattontax,
I agree w\your last paragraph but the for the joke part.
I believe you hr average was around 9 a game and the reds were probably about the same viewing the scores.
Am familiar with Wongs and CA Energy & think they both could hold their own in the plus arena, but only time will tell what where they go.
Jan. 7, 2012
jrhunch
96 posts
i dont care how many hrs a team hit they still lost.the issue should always be why didn't the champs move up?if there was a roster issue then they wouldn't have been playing at the major level in the first place.to solve this issue all we need is to have ssusa post the answer then we wouldn't have to guess.it looked like a great tourney with great teams.congrats to no. cal reds.we have played major plus teams in other assn. and have never been given 5 runs but when we playesd aaa teams we gave them 5 runs.keep hitting and stay safe
Jan. 7, 2012
FOFO
Men's 50
171 posts
My question would be the same as Leon's. How does any team take second in a tournament and get moved up and the team that wins does not. It makes no difference how many home runs they hit or anything else for that matter. The fact is they were beaten, took second, got moved up and the team that beat them did not.
The whole thing smells a little fishy if you ask me.
Jan. 7, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
FOFO is spot on. It would be a VERY sad day for this sport if home runs, or anything for that matter, takes precedence over winning.
Jan. 7, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Like taits said........."There has to be more to this that what we read."

Maybe someone thought that they were sand baggin?
Jan. 7, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
jrhunch,
I think you and I are on the same page and more likely a lot of others, as to winning a big T the teams should move up.
I am aware of a team that won many of the big ones last year and still at the same rating.Ę It's not the first time either.
Perhaps just one big one in a year is a fluke, but two, thats another story. Three, someone screwed up royally.
IMO
Jan. 7, 2012
Joncon
289 posts
Maybe Johhny Hose kicked dirt on the wrong shoes :)
Jan. 7, 2012
Johnny Hose
Men's 50
71 posts
I am delighted that you all have brought this to light. As the
coach of the Fan Grabber team, I have issues with the whole
process in which teams are rated... and always have. Maybe if my team was based in Sacramento, I would be left alone or at least a chance to build some sort of history. The teams we lost to, werevery good teams. Just as powerful as us in the HR department.With cold weather, hard balls, Mikens and fields with the wind blowing dead out every game, what do think we're going to do ? I witnessed our umpire giving OUR HR totals to an official after each game. My roster consists of TWO M Plus players, both playing in the 60 M Plus division. The rest are a bunch of great 56 year old MAJOR players. Again, it is not my intention to question the decision to move us up,but the fairness in it's process. The bottom line is we were the SECOND best team that played in that tournament.
My congratulations to the BEST team, the N/Cal Reds.
As for the forfiet, it was a team decision. Looking back, I
would do it again. But then again, I think too much about the health of my players. We had two or three muscle injuries and a 9PM game in a 40 degree, windy Las Vegas night, would have
given us no chance to play all those games on Sunday.
Thanks for your thoughts, and wish all of you health and happiness in your 2012 softball year.
Jan. 7, 2012
FOFO
Men's 50
171 posts
Well Johnny,the way this man see's it YOU GOT HOSED!
Jan. 8, 2012
Firz
1 posts
Following the recent posts and stating the most important fact...

The 55 Major FG team got beat TWICE in Vegas, finished 2nd and got bumped up to PLUS and the teams that beat us did not.

Yes - we did have two 60 Major + --- repeat 60 M+ players and one of them AH’d and only hit (2) HR’s the entire tourney. The balance of the team: three old T. Bandit major players, three old FG majors, 5 other assorted Major players including a midget playing third base.

Does this BUMP decision reflect previous rulings by management ?

Not to cause grief for old friends or the ire of SS management but, Rapid Erectors won 5 tourneys last year in 50 Major and are still 50 Major. FanGrabber LOSE one tourney and get bumped up….

We all expect transparency and fairness from SSUSA Management when they are called on for critical decisions. I can’t believe anyone protested to SSUSA about a LOSING SECOND place team…. So this edict moving FG to “PLUS” came out of the blue - what motive and reason is behind this …??

Is it possible to appeal this Rating Bump? The “Rating Guidelines" say teams are evaluated after (3) tourneys and ratings are reviewed. If a HOT team smokes the competition in Mar, Apr, May, they will then get bumped midseason or in Nov… but LOSE the FIRST tourney of the year and get Bumped ….

We will have to write and letter appealing the appeal process and appeal to the same folks who first made the decision … We can only hope time and fairness will prevail and the decision reversed.

Good Evening.

Jan. 9, 2012
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
The probable reason for the NorCal Reds not moving up next year . Is , that the #4 and #5 hitter, for that tournament, won in Vegas , will not be with the team in 2012 . Sacto. is aware of this .
Jan. 9, 2012
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
The probable reason for the NorCal Reds not moving up next year . Is , that the #4 and #5 hitter, for that tournament, won in Vegas , will not be with the team in 2012 . Sacto. is aware of this .
Jan. 9, 2012
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Foothills ... Is it really taken into consideration who may or may not be back on the team??? ... Sounds a bit suspect to me.
Jan. 9, 2012
DCPete
234 posts
You're absolutely right #19; EVERY team could make some kind of claim like that plus the Reds new? #4 & #5 hitters might be better than the guys they're replacing.
Jan. 9, 2012
ham24
24 posts
My team plays in 50AAA and were moved up, even though we finished 3rd in Phoenix. The team I play for is called Chicken Coop. We were surprised because we only played in 4 tourneys all summer. Two of those tournament were in K.C. where we played the same 4 or 5 teams. We won those tournaments but by no means did we dominate them in fact out of 10 games played we lost 3 of them and the rest were close games.We also plyed in Minn. and finish 3rd in a 5 team tourney were we lost to a 55 major and a 60 major. We feel we have unfinished buisness in 50 AAA. But now won't have the chance.
Jan. 9, 2012
jrhunch
96 posts
the tournie was a 2012 toc qualifier therefore it doesnt matter who the reds are missing.this post shouldnt be about the reds but why was fb moved up.why?why cant a ssusa official post the answer?is it a homeland security issue?we pay a registation fee so that ssusa looks out for our best interests.i am curious about fb's situation because as the saying goes "it could happen to you".what is the problem,fb doesn't even know why they are being moved up.i know curiosity killed the cat but i am still curious.
Jan. 9, 2012
udaplaya
91 posts
It was my understanding, from previous SSUSA posts, that 60 major+ players are considered equivalent to 55 Major players for rating purposes, so even those two guys should not be the reason for the bump.

Interested to hear the logic on this one.
Jan. 9, 2012
400
Men's 50
77 posts
Firz...Firz...FIRZ! Darnit man I told you to PUT THAT COFFE DOWN.
You absolutely have watched that 5 hour energy commercial way TOO many times. Must be a case of Cabin Fever setting in. (Deep breath and relax). Now look what you did, you went and got some of these guys all worked up on the 8TH day of the New Year!

I must admit though that you have an interesting point about Rapid Erectors. That many wins in a year should warrant moving somewhere. Wait a minute, I think I heard they are losing a few guys.
Jan. 9, 2012
400
Men's 50
77 posts
DILLION1 I knew that you could not keep yourself contained. Too much time on your hands in between tournaments. Keep the FAITH.
Jan. 9, 2012
400
Men's 50
77 posts
To the rest of you:
The decision that was made to forfeit a game was made well within the rules that existed in 2011. If you only knew how much debate went into that decision before it was made. Heck it was hard to get a word in edgewise above FIRZ. Did anyone mention that, in the game that didn't matter, we came back and played the same team Sunday morning.....

Per DBAX point that situation has been dealt with by the Rules committee and NOW is a moot point.

Happy New Year!
Jan. 9, 2012
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
DCPete . The two #4 and #5 hitters who are leaving were Major Plus rated , "the only two on the team ". They are being replaced with two Major rated players .
Jan. 9, 2012
jrhunch
96 posts
foothills,if 6 players are on the roster from a moveup team the team still has to moveup.if a 55major team moves up to 60's and have 6players from the previous years roster ,they have to moveup.i am not saying that they should be moved up ,i am saying the reasons you stated are not what the rules we follow state.again this should be why is a team getting moved up after playing 1 time together and didn't win.if they played in 3 tournies and came in second 3 times then at least they would have a track record and a moveup could at least be thought of as a possiblity.foothills when you win an important tournie you get moved up that is the price you pay for winning.not sure if this was a one of those tournies but the loser got moved up.every major team i have played against knows the price you pay for winning one and what would happen if all you had to do was keep switching major plus with major players after each victory.
Jan. 9, 2012
DCPete
234 posts
Foothills; fair enough except that the player ratings don't necessarily equate to an individual player's ability since All players on a Major Plus roster are rated as Major Plus players.
There are plenty of hitters playing on Major teams that are bona fide HR hitters capable of playing Major Plus and there are plenty of Major Plus players who are Not bona fide HR hitters.
Just saying . . .
Jan. 10, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
This is an interesting read, it does seem strange that a second place team gets bumped but the winning team doesn't????

As I see it.... You cannot know how a team stacks up with all the other teams from around the country untill you see how they compare at a World tourney.

Senior softball would save everyone a lot if headaches if they limited thier bumps to end of the season World finishes only.

They could use thier current ranking system for new teams based on the level the players were ranked the previous year.

Seems transparent and fair.
Jan. 10, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3936 posts
foothills it shouldn't matter whether they keep them or not,they won the tourney,second place team was moved up they should be also.if this is allowed i can see abuse coming,well we lost 2 of our big guys so we need to move down,or not move up.......

tim,i like the idea of players being rated by the team they play with,if they move down they need to keep that rating for 2 years.also any player who makes the impact player list should not be allowed to go lower than M....i also like what they are gonna do now by only allowing a certain amount of higher level players to move down to a team....
Jan. 10, 2012
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Exactly right mad dog ... an anticipated roster should have nothing to do with move-ups, move-downs, or status quo.
Jan. 10, 2012
jerseyboy
Men's 55
5 posts
I feel your pain HAM 24 Jan 9 Post: I play for Renda Roads 50 AAA. We finished 2nd in Phoenix. We played in 4 SSUSA 2011 Tournaments. Our best finish in any of the tournaments was 2nd. We didn't win one single SSUSA Tournament and we were moved up to 50 Majors. Half of our team is 55 and teams that beat us in the 4 tournaments are still at AAA. Go Figure. Thanks
Jan. 10, 2012
ham24
24 posts
Hi, jerseyboy I remember playing you guys. You got a class act of guys on your team. I am just surprised at being moved up after playing in 4 tournaments and playing the same 4-5 teams in two of them that they moved us. I am not saying we can't win any games at that level. But we haven't finished what we started. I am sure you feel the same. We are going to appeal but I heard it falls on deaf ears. Btw I was the leadoff batter for the coop,that was one hell of a game with you guys.
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