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Discussion: Doctored Bat in Seattle?

Posted Discussion
Sept. 12, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Doctored Bat in Seattle?
I've learned that a bat was confiscated
in Seattle last weekend
in the Major Plus tournament
that was thought to be altered.

If this is found to be the case,
the player and his team
deserve major consequences
for the offense.

If illegal bats are bad because they create an unfair advantage and can hurt players
then this is a very serious situation
that needs to be dealt with openly
and directly
else,
there is and will be regard respect or sense
to any action regarding illegal bats in the future.

If the bat is altered or the player admits his guilt
SSUSA should take a stand and clear and well defined
stand and one that will help discourage
anyone from swinging a fixed bat in a National competition.
Sept. 12, 2006
pizzaboy
11 posts
Altered bats are popping up everywhere.Last weekend in a Church Tournament in Pittsburgh there was one.I play with my sons at the C-D level sometimes and it seems almost every tournament one turns up.It doesn't matter where your playing in the Mts.of WVa or a complex in Fla. they show up.How do you stop it???????Only solution is tournament supplies the bats for all teams but thats not practical.ITs a BIG problem thats getting worse.
Sept. 12, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Maybe because I'm a pitcher now
and have had 2 balls come at me so fast and hard
all I could make out was a flash of light
is the reason this one is biting me in the butt.

I recommend a 2 year suspension for the player,
1 year for the team and permanent removal from the Hall of Fame or consideration into the Hall,
if found to have used an advantageously altered bat.

There needs to be a precedent, an example
so the meaning is clear to all
that this cheating and ultimately dangerous activity
will not be tolerated.
Sept. 12, 2006
Gary Heifner
248 posts
Senior softball allows us to use the "U2". WHY DO YOU NEED ANYTHING MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!. If you are caught with an altered bat:

"LIFETIME SUSPENSION" from "ALL" senior softball in
"ALL" associations.

This is one step worse than "AA" teams that load up with major and major+ players and then tell their kids they won.
Sept. 12, 2006
Gary Heifner
248 posts
Post Script to my above thought. How many will use an altered bat if they know they will never play again???

Answer for those of you who are slow. Absolute "0" unless the player is brain dead!!!
Sept. 12, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
I believe there is a process that the bat mfg folks can add to their production process that would allow easy testing of wall thickness. I worked in a plastic bottling plant and we measured wall thickness with a micrometer and ball bearings. The bearings were magnetic and the micrometer would measure wall thickness within a miniscule tolerance. We produced for the big pharma so they had unbelievable standards. The bat manufacturers could introduce something magnetic that could be read by a micrometer at the parks to assess whether bats were altered. No one can convince me that this is not cost effective or can't be done efficiently.
Sept. 12, 2006
CAT
148 posts
If they find that someone is severely injured with an altered bat, then I believe that the batter should legally be up for consideration of assault and battery or attempted murder. Then as with any law suit, they throw in the bat mfg., organization; team mgr., etc. In this manner, everyone is a "watch dog" for everyone else. I believe that would stop the issue.
Also, being a pitcher, I have seen too many repeated shots up the middle. I feel that it should be at the umpire's discrepancy, that two shots up the middle by the same hitter, in one game, should constitute a warning and the next being an ejection for the next complete game.
Sept. 12, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Cat on the home page open the PDF under the 40's schedule in Seattle and scroll down where they describe some of the HR rules, you'll notice a blurb on hitting middle. I'm not sure but this possibly could be something SSUSA maybe testing for wider use later. This was used in Menifee in mid Aug and didn't cause much fuss.
Sept. 12, 2006
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
420 posts
Interesting rule on hitting the middle.

They refer to a line drive 3' to 6' high. I guess it's OK to hit the pitcher in the ankle or, if he's 6'4', to hit him on top of the head.

I don't want any pitchers getting hurt and wouldn't deliberately hit at a pitcher, but he is in fair territory and should field his position. If the equipment has gotten too hot for safety, we need to give up our UII's and other hot bats (and, yes, I just bought one).

Unless a player has exceptional bat control, this rule doesn't just take away a 2-3 foot slice of the infield, but a sizeable piece of center field, because the angle will widen out past the pitcher.

This is just one player's opinion, but I hope this doesn't get implemented in the other age groups.

Other thoughts?
Sept. 12, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I think getting the umpire involved is a good thing, too,
but it's the lethal speed of the hit ball that is the culprit in this case and anything, like an illegal bat,
that increases speed beyond what is deemed
acceptable, must be controlled,
And, having clear, severe consequences
will go a long way to "deterring" would be
violators.
Lifelong ban from all senior softball associations?
Perhaps.
What do YOU think?
Sept. 12, 2006
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
Wow. As a pitcher of many years, I think I will chime in on this up the middle stuff. I've been hit more times then I can count. Should I change positions? Slow reaction time? I've been hit in the knee in Nationals(in Plano) and had to have surgery. I am still pitching. Even got a few Defensive Player awards(while pitching). Not bragging but getting to a point. The bat may have had some influence in getting hit. But, think about the infields we play on. Batter hits a ball, one hopper, hit these cement infields, top spin takes off faster then when the ball was hit, and this reduces the reaction time of any one pitching. Would I prefer you not hit up the middle? Doesn't matter to me. I am part of the field. Its 50/50 I will get you out.
PS I would rather have a line drive then a one hopper. Just my two cents on a subject that has been beaten to death and can't be resolved.
Sept. 12, 2006
SLUGGERS13
35 posts
All of the replys on this subjuct have merit but please guys lets not put the cart before the horse all that has to be done to have a bat confiscated is to have one of the opposing managers pay the protest fee to have the bat tested so lets first wait and see if there is any merit to this before we nail this guy to the wall.
Sept. 12, 2006
SLUGGERS13
35 posts
Now having said that that if and only after the tests comes back and the bat has been altered then stern measures should be taken but in America you are innocent until proven guilty
Sept. 12, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
DOCTOR BATS & or ALTERED BATS:
It is one thing to paint a bat. It is another thing, to END load a bat; or KNOB loading.The 1st batch of Freaks, were found to weigh 1 to 2 oz. heavier. I have brought 27 oz. bats, that weight were 29 oz. I have also, brought a 27 oz. bat that weight was 25.4 oz. In ASA, placing a MUDCKAT, on the Knob, is an alter bat. Adding to much tape to a bat, is also an altered bat. A bat that is over 34 1/4 inch is illegal. A bat that weigh is over 32 oz. is illegal.
It's not nice to c some SENIOR, that want to ban a player 4 life. Some BATS come from the factory hot. Some players will buy a bat from a "friend." Some of these bats r hot. I know of players that have brought alter bats, from HOUSE OF POP, & these bats r still to this day crap.
LAST POINT: How many of the balls used in todays games r hot. B & N SPORTS, test balls all of the time. Over 50% of the balls tested were hot. As far as a pitcher's reaction time, @ 50 ft, any ball w/ a comp of over 410, will get back before 0.4 of a sec. The pitcher can not react
fast enough. HOW ABLE TEST' our DECKER 44 cor balls W/ a 375 comp. These r the best balls & a yr. later, I bet that these balls will test over 500. U're thoughts.
Sept. 12, 2006
BigLou
26 posts
I have some questions that maybe anyone can answer. I was not in Seattle so whose bat was taken? What team protested it? How much did it cost to protest? Can anyone protest or does it have to be the manager? How long do they have to test it? Could you take an entire team’s bats on the say so of an opposing manager- this done in the first game of a tournament might affect the outcome (some guys sponsors might be willing to spend a couple hundred bucks to get an advantage). How, where and when do they test it? Do they have to give the player a deposit so that if they tear the bat open and find it is legal he can get another bat? Are there written specified sanctions if it is found to be altered? Didn’t they allow U II’s in Seattle. What if it was a non U II altered to make it as hot as a U II- should there be a penalty then (no advantage)?
Maurice – the Doctor of Love
Sept. 13, 2006
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
Thanks for noting the 40 middle rule. I am not sure that I agree because I know that I always cringe when a batter has two strikes, and the pitcher throws an outside pitch because they always go right back to where they came from. Flat pitches are always suspect to come back at the pitcher also. For me, I guess that I think that intent is often easy to judge. If a batter apologizes, they did not do it on purpose. If they are talking trash about the middle and sometimes if they say nothing, they often did intend to hit it. My home park has a rule as of this year that if anyone talks about or threatens to hit up the middle that they are to be ejected. When we play small ball tournaments here, the pitcher belongs to the batting team to keep an opposing pitcher from being hit. I will not go into all the new issues that causes. I read once that most softball pitchers that are killed by a ball have it happen in batting practice. If this is true, I would guess that it would be because the pitcher is more relaxed than in a game, and batters hit pitches that they normally do not take. I was taught to hit up the middle; so I plead no contest.

I do not know what the solution is, but from an earlier note on this thread, I would rather that it be umpire's discretion, not discrepancy (Freudian slip?).
Sept. 13, 2006
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
I agree, Nancy, I don't pitch in tournaments anymore but do pitch in league. I have been hit twice in the last year, both in bp by my own teammates!
Sept. 13, 2006
Elmo
Men's 50
69 posts
Bruce, we were trying to hit you. Your such and easy target. Besides. your wife oaid us.
Sept. 13, 2006
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2664 posts
It only took me a couple of years to figure that out. Maybe the jersey with a bullseye on it should have given me a clue! :)
Sept. 13, 2006
Steinbrenner
Men's 55
27 posts
The person & bat in question played & used the bat in games against my team. Now remember, Senior Softball allows the use of Miken UII's. This person decided to use a Blue Easton Synergy which is ASA 98 approved. We played against him in 4 different games in Seattle. I would say that 80% of the balls he hit were home runs. Not your cheapy, barely clearing the fence home runs, but monster shots. One of the home runs hit the top of the light pole & the ball was still rising. They beat us 2 out of the 4 games. Thats life. There are a few guys on my team, including myself, that own the same bat. The bat, even broken in, doesn't compare with any UII that I have ever hit.
I hate losing any game! My team looks forward to playing any team on an equal playing field. Cheaters need to stay home! Anybody can contact me.
Manager of the California Thunder 50 Major + Softball Club Mark McDaniel mark00asa@aol.com
Oh Yeah, I have been an ASA Player Rep for 15 years, so I have been quite involved with bat testing issues.
Sept. 13, 2006
Steinbrenner
Men's 55
27 posts
The person & bat in question played & used the bat in games against my team. Now remember, Senior Softball allows the use of Miken UII's. This person decided to use a Blue Easton Synergy which is ASA 98 approved. We played against him in 4 different games in Seattle. I would say that 80% of the balls he hit were home runs. Not your cheapy, barely clearing the fence home runs, but monster shots. One of the home runs hit the top of the light pole & the ball was still rising. They beat us 2 out of the 4 games. Thats life. There are a few guys on my team, including myself, that own the same bat. The bat, even broken in, doesn't compare with any UII that I have ever hit.
I hate losing any game! My team looks forward to playing any team on an equal playing field. Cheaters need to stay home! Anybody can contact me.
Manager of the California Thunder 50 Major + Softball Club Mark McDaniel mark00asa@aol.com
Oh Yeah, I have been an ASA Player Rep for 15 years, so I have been quite involved with bat testing issues.
Sept. 13, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
That narrows it down based on the PDF schedule. Hope it's not true.
Sept. 13, 2006
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
So, if I read the scores right, that narrows it down to 1 team, the Northwest 50's (formerly the Oregon Masters) out of the Portland OR area.

I sincerely hope the bat turns out not to be altered. I've played against those cats a few times and they seem to be a bunch of good guys.
Sept. 13, 2006
Steinbrenner
Men's 55
27 posts
I wasn't going to mention names. Not my style. I can't fault the team. Only one person used the bat. I have been competing against those guys for years & years. They have always been a great bunch of guys.
Sept. 13, 2006
Steinbrenner
Men's 55
27 posts
I wasn't going to mention names. Not my style. I can't fault the team. Only one person used the bat. I have been competing against those guys for years & years. They have always been a great bunch of guys.
Sept. 13, 2006
Hit the gap
Men's 60
146 posts
So by giving the won/loss record against the team and the division in which you played, you are in essence, naming names. Why not? If 20 or more people are aware of the situation, it is public knowledge anyway.

I am certainly not painting the team with a broad brush. It is only one guy and as I say, I hope it turns out not to be an altered bat.

By making more people aware of this incident, I think maybe the bat cheaters will be less likely to use them. I for one hope they are all caught.

What is the proceedure once a bat has been confiscated?
Sept. 13, 2006
Stones 1B
Men's 55
52 posts
Seems like the Easton Blue Synergy is the Bat of Choice to buy and or have doctored.
I have seen many Compsotie bats in action that otherwise seem unusually high in performance.
Others with the same type of bat (model) don't quite get the same results that these "Doctored" bats.

Here in Hawaii 1 player has been caught using a doctored Blue Synergy. Sent bat to ASA HQ's and they did 2 different test and both results were positive (illegal/doctored). Banned from ASA play for 1 year.
Doctored bats outperform other bats, except maybe and yet sometimes it does outperform the U2.
In senoiors play what would drive someone to use a doctored bat and not a U2.
If bat is found to be illegal/altered for perfomance then I say life time, stop the Bull $h%t.
The game, the players and officials don't need to have to worry about illegal equipment.
Let's just play ball with legal equipment.
NO Mercy...
Sept. 14, 2006
BigLou
26 posts
Steinbrenner,
Thanks for answering some questions (it appears you protested the bat)- maybe you can help and answer a few of the others. I’ve played against teams where I suspected altered bats were used. How much did it cost to protest? Can anyone protest or does it have to be the manager? What is the procedure? Do you have to protests it immediately after the batter hit?How long do they have to test it? If it comes back altered does it change the outcome of the game it was used in?
Thanks,
Big Lou
Sept. 14, 2006
Steinbrenner
Men's 55
27 posts
Lou,
Actually it wasn't I that protested the questionable bat. My team was sitting in the stands with a representative of a bat manufacturer discussing how the ball flies off of that blue Sunergy CNT. He had watched our game & the championship game with the Mavericks & also marveled at how far tha ball flew off of a ASA legal bat. Not sure who protested it. The next thing that happenned is that a known bat doctor & the tournament director got together & took the bat. Each association has it's own fee structure for protesting bats & it is a pricey ordeal, as they don't want everybody protesting each others bats, just to get them out of the game. The team manager should be the person protesting the bat & then they usually send it back to the original manufacturer for them to check. Usually the only thing that happens after it is found to be altered, is that player faces suspension.
Sept. 14, 2006
softballer
Men's 55
560 posts
mmmmmmm i'm wondering if it's the same bat that was used in lake tahoe 40+ and over tounrament? a guy there had one (blue synergy)
and he hit it a ton! the fence was 320 to left and 10 ft high there was a pine tree about 60 ft tall and a good 35-45 ft behind it and he was hitting the top of it! i don't think so with a regurar bat . if he did congrads on it
Sept. 14, 2006
batter4u
Men's 65
76 posts
anyone that needs to use an altered bat in a game when you can use the u-II defenatly has an ego probblem or is compensating for some other self defeciency... myself, i aways thought that a good rule would be that if you hit the ball up the midle a second time, you have to pitch the next inning. bet that would stop alot of the guys from going up the at the pitcher midle consistantly..... play on...
Sept. 15, 2006
tattooball
620 posts
I was involved with the inspection of this bat and yes it is an altered bat. I wont go into the details and we will wait for the outcome from a lab that is testing the bat.
There was also a miken max load that was painted and used by a team on monday and that bat was also taken and proved to be illegal. There will be penalties handed down to these players in the near future.
Sept. 15, 2006
hitit
10 posts
Why is "Trumpball" (Anaconda bat rep) in charge of determining if a bat in queston (not an Anaconda bat, but a competators bat: Easton, Miken) appears to be altered? Isn't that the responsibility of the tournament director? It sure looks like conflicting interest here, especially if Anaconda reps had possesion of these bats before they were sent for independant inspection. The motive is obvious. If I am swinging anything other than what bat representatives are present, they can take my bat (do whatever they want to it) and send it in for inspection. If I don't give the bat it's an automatic 2 year suspension. What trust do I have in giving up my bat in the future. If it's a "good ole boys" club and they want to make an expample out of someone, you have no defense in the case. There whould be a way of protecting the player (if indeed the bat is un-altered) to ensure the bat is sealed in a container and shipped directly for inspection rather than have it float around in peoples posession that have no business touching the bat. I wonder, did these players: mark the bat in a way to prove it's their bat (sign the bat, take a picture of holding the bat with a characteristic mark, etc), get a receipt from the party taking the bat, etc? This deal in Seattle sounds like a givernment operation...."we're from the government and here to help you.....! This is a bad way to market the Anaconda bat.....strong-arm tactics. I'll stay with my U2.
Sept. 15, 2006
tattooball
620 posts
First off I was not in possesion of the bat, I made a professional opinion of a bat that used on the field. The bat has been sent off (not by me) to a test facility for testing. I sell every companies bat so your statements are very accuate. Just like the miken that was taken, it was verified by someone that is capable of making a decision like that. Then the bats are sent for testing to verify performance. If you feel that people should not be held accountable for their actions then there should be no performance standards at all, maybe you should just use a bazooka and load a ball into it and fire it over the fence.
Sept. 15, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Boy,
To use a line from Chris Rock. hitit,
"How did we get HERE?"

This is about using or not using an altered bat or bats,
in Seattle and not who figured it out or helped.
This is a huge thing and something that needs careful,
clear and appropriate treatment
by SSUSA.
If we have important rules like no altered/illegal bats
than we have to have the means and capability in place to enforce them, else,
SSUSA and the Senior Softball community
will lose the respect and prestige it needs and deserves.

It's time to step up.


Sept. 15, 2006
RedEye
Men's 60
92 posts
A bat was taken in June @ ISF, Manassas, VA & sent off for testing & to this date NO word about it has been said.

It is a shame that when you are allowed to use the U2 that someone would go & use an Altered/Shaved/Painted bat.

It is running WILD in all the Associations & someone is going to get hurt.

Hope no one I know ends up being the UnLucky one.

The players Need to stop this before it gets out of hand.
Sept. 15, 2006
Gene22
Men's 55
78 posts
Let's take this to the next level. Some people just don't get it. They think that using an altered bat is cool. Let's try to make them understand on another level..........Weather you know it or not, if you use an altered bat and you hurt someone, the TD, Association, Manager of the team and that person using and or owner of the altered bat at the time of the injury and the person who altered the bat will in all likelyhood be SUED. The associations know this and should do everything they can to "Stop Them At The Gate". at least have someone in the know inspect every bat that is to be used before the games begin, and put a mark or sticker on them. With this problem creeping up more and more, the Associations Insurance Policy will not stand behind them with the Associations just telling people in a printed matter"No Altered Bats". I hope this does not fall on deaf ears. What kind of person could get a thrill out of BLASTING on out, with what they know is an altered bat. I for one and I am sure many others get an even GREATER THRILL when we BLAST one out following the rules.

Gene D. Riddlebaugh
Ohio Silverados #22
Sept. 15, 2006
hitit
10 posts
Maybe I didn't get my point across. If there is obvious signs of alteration, pain flaking off, endcap mangled, etc. then by all means there is reason for necessary action if the TD deems it necessary. But, to have bat manufacturers the "experts" on site to flag bats that may or may not be altered, especially bats that are not made by their own company is going to get out of control. And, I just don't want to get all caught up in 50+ bat protest a tournament from overzealous players & coaches. Just as big a deal, I hope the first bat that comes back proven as non-altered, that the person that had the bat protested covers the cost of the player that may had to go out and buy a new bat while his was being inspected for 2-3 weeks or more. I saw a post elsewhere where this was the case.
Sept. 15, 2006
RedEye
Men's 60
92 posts
From the ISF/ISSA web site under RULES:

19. BATS:

All bats used in ISSA play must be official softball bats approved by the Amateur Softball Association (ASA) unless prior approval given by the tournament officials. Bats must have their original paint markings for complete identification. Tournament officials have the right to keep any bat suspected of being altered or otherwise illegal for a period of thirty (30) days to have it inspected and/or tested. Any bat found to be altered or illegal could result in the player and manager being disqualified from future participation in senior softball. Any team protesting a bat alleging it to be altered must post the Bat Protest Fee of $350.00.
Sept. 15, 2006
tattooball
620 posts
Hitit,
Maybe you didn't get your point across. I only looked at the bat and said it looked suspicious. It is being teated by an approved lab. The miken bat was looked at by miken at the field and was ruled to be illegal.
Who do you think should check the bats?
Other players
Players wives
Who
Come up with a real plan and be a part of ending this instead of comming on here and complaining that you don't think it is right that people that are in the industry and are capable of determining if a bat MAY HAVE BEEN ALTERED. Now a ruling will be made once the tests are returned to the association.
This has nothing to do with me or any others that were involved in this matter. The test will be the determining factor. Until then no one has been banned from the game.
Sept. 15, 2006
the wood
1085 posts
Quite frankly, I'd hate to see the ACLU get involved in this... so to speak. I respect the 'chain of evidence' and all and I respect the presumption of innocence. But, to me, the biggest issues here are the potetial safety of players and a level playing field. With this in mind, if we're not part of the solution then we're part of the problem.
Bob Woodroof
Sept. 15, 2006
50'sDaughter
1 posts
This situation is not one to take lightly by any means, but to go and punish the whole team. Where has it ever been stated that any other player new about the bat? There are sneaky people in this world who by any means necessary will try to better there performance. Nothing against the person whos bat it is, but sometimes people do things they should not do to be the best. That does not mean that the other players of that team are in the wrong. How about all those gentleman who are on that team to go out and play some real ball that follow the rules. Should they all be punished? Especially if there is the possibility that they did not know. Suspending the person who committed the act is the only necessary punishment. Punishing a whole team for one persons mistake is wrong. There are probably hundreds of ball players out there who use illegal bats and there teams my not know. So in the end for every illegal bat that is caught we are going to ban the team and eventually there will not be enough teams to even form leagues or tournaments. This is a problem that will consist no matter what is done. Like someone said above, the only way that this issue will be solved is if the tournaments provide the necessary bats. Either that or there needs to be more of a strenous check by the umpire who in turn gets more training into what to look for in an illegal bat. People need to lay off these poor gentleman and get back to the matter at hand. Trying to figure out a way to solve an epidemic in a way that does not hurt or punish the people who were not involved.
Sept. 15, 2006
Steinbrenner
Men's 55
27 posts
Hitit,
The bat did have every indication of being altered; loose cap, soft cap & the end of the bat was chipped. I have watched some great home run contests. Bryson Baker & Carl Rose squared off in a contest a few years ago in Concord. They weren't hitting the kind of shots that this guy was & he kept hitting them over & over. I know that Bryson & Carl use "factory supplied bats". I am not saying that this guys home runs are impossible to duplicate but in my opinion it is impossible to hit 350-400 foot shots over & over again with an ASA 98 approved Synergy CNT.
Sept. 15, 2006
BigLou
26 posts
I'm still interested in the who and how. Who protested the bat if not Steinbrenner? How did they go about it? Like I've said I've played against players that I thought were using an altered bat (No ultras were allowed) and I'ld like to know how you go about it? Or did the tournament director do this on his own? I heard the team was playing the Mavericks- did the Mavericks protest this? And if so how? Maybe someone from the Mavericks can enlighten me. And I may be naive but can you make a synergy hotter than an Ultra II?
Maurice the gangster of Love
Sept. 16, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Daughter,
I beg to differ with you on the team thing.
It's my experience that if a guy's using an illegal bat
then most to all of the players know about it.
And if they know about it, and do nothing
they deserve the consequences, too.
Just like in Lonesome Dove,
"When you ride with an outlaw,
you die with an outlaw."

Let's not get lost here in the myriad of players and perspectives.
This is about getting caught using dangerously and unfairly
altered bats which have already been made illegal.
If true, the crime is HUGE.
And the consequences must be in kind.
And,
all organizations, and players
not just SSUSA,
should stand up and be counted.

Sept. 16, 2006
breeze53
Men's 55
40 posts
if you take the u2s from senior ball, there will be a huge revolt. i know that the using alter bats is a big problem. but if everyone is concern about safety,mainly the pitcher, why not use a pitching net for the pitcher. if the ball hits the net the batter is out. it does not solve the problem with the bats but the pitchers will be happy.
Sept. 16, 2006
RochBob
53 posts
Yes, the bat was confiscated and the player is out for this year and next,

DAHHHHH nobody else on the team knew about it !!
Yet most of them were using it
Homer Simpson knew aout the illegal bat.


Not the first violation for this player

My feeling the penalty was not severe enough.

The team needs to be penalized.

That will fix the problems when the coach or manager and the team are penalized.
Sept. 16, 2006
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
Everyone is concerned for the pitcher. Guys, pitchers have been getting hit with balls for years. Why would anyone want to ruin the game by putting up a net? If a pitcher is concerned with getting hit there is plenty of equipment available to wear to protect yourself. I pitch and also hit the middle. Take that away and now I have to change my swing(that I 've had for years) and learn a different one at age 60. Why not just cancel tournaments and everyone stay home and play in their own leagues and make up whatever rules you want. The majority or responses I read are from Major Plus, add in some Major players about these suggestions. I hate to tell you but the majority of players are 2A and 3A. Look at the nationals going on in Seattle right now. 7 teams in Major Plus and 5 in Major. 17 in 3A and 16 in 2A(not exactly sure but these numbers are close). Til you get more 2A and 3A people to get into discussions how can anything ever be solved? More input then what is shown here is needed before any association is going to make changes. Again, just my two cents
Sept. 16, 2006
RochBob
53 posts
I do know the player! personally!!!!

I am sorry to say !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will avoid him in the future !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sept. 16, 2006
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
420 posts
Thanks for you post, GT. You're right about protective equipment.

There are too many who seem ready to change the fabric of the game to keep their bats.
Sept. 16, 2006
RochBob
53 posts
You can bet your last penny that the team was aware of this bat. The punishment is very light .
Not the first violation by this individual.
I am aware of who the player is and know him.
It should be dealt with more severly.
The answer he gave for having the bat
"Got it from some guy in the NAVY"
That is an insult to our people in the Navy.
Sept. 16, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey guys,
I think Dbax, 60 Bill, hitit and RochBob
are all the same guy who wants/needs
some attention.
What do you think, Dave Clark, aka Dbax?
Email me if you want to talk.

It also brings up what to do
when we have a clown/crasher in our midst
that tries to mess with our website
like he has.
Any suggestions?

Sept. 16, 2006
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
TT-Thanks. I believe you hit the nail on the head.
PS Tell Ed, I am running a one day tournament in Houston on Oct. 21st, if he is interested. Probably last one of year as some teams want to get some time in before Vegas. Otherwise, will have one end of Feb. 07.
Sept. 16, 2006
60 Bill
27 posts
FAT LADYS still singing your song einstein, and no we are not the same person.
Sept. 16, 2006
STONEMAN
Men's 50
535 posts
I hope that the follow' infro will end this discussion. I have been told by several M+ players, ,(that were @ Seattle), that a team or player on a team, went to the bat reps & asked the bat reps to watch this one player, used this 98 bat. Both reps did & then where asked to go w/ this concern player & talk to the tournament director about this bat & player. As I understand, T.H., was informed about the questionable illegal bat, by both bat reps & a certain team.(I DO NOT KNOW W/ TEAM MADE THE COMPLAIN.)

T.H., asked another team,(that was about to play this Or. team) & the winners of the winners bracket, had no problem w/ any bat being used. At this time, T.H., made the decission to take this bat that was in question @ the end of the Championship game.
Sept. 17, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bighitter,
You're right I feel to defend your teammate and friend but
you failed to realize that RochBob is a clown,
a crasher, a waste of a good man's time,
not to be taken seriously
and likes to mess with people.
He got you.

These guys sign on anonymously
so they can say whatever the feel like
to anyone they want, any time they want
and call it freedom of expression
without being accountable.
They're negative clowns at best
and Nazi's at worst.
Cowards, too,
who don't deserve your respect.
Sept. 18, 2006
tattooball
620 posts
Big hitter,
I did not get to the game until the 6th inning and you are right, I did not see anyone else swing the bat in the time that I was there. Yes Nate is a great hitter but in a tourny that you can hit a u-2 why would you swing a asa bat? Yes I know that Nate's other team is sponsored by easton but realaity is the u-2 is a much better bat and someone called his bat into question. It was looked at and deemed suspicious. I am not aware of the test results or if they even have them back yet, but time will tell.

(General statement)
Another thing is that many of the u-2 bats have the rods removed from the handle and that is also cheating, this is also being addressed so be careful. In an association that allows the u-2 why would anyone feel the need to cheat. What will eventually happen is they will have to fall in line with other associations to curb the cheating and than all of your mikens/combats and other senior only bats will dissappear so now every body gets punished.

Swing hard in case you hit it....
Sept. 19, 2006
SouthernLeather
22 posts
I've seen the many posts and discussions regarding penalties for hitting up the middle or injuries to pitchers.

It's true, its probably the most dangerous spot to play....but you can't stop batters from going up the middle, it eliminates too much of the field for fair play.

Ilegal bats, catch em, penalize em. But there should be no penalty for hitting up the middle.

I have pitched for 15 years both full and part-time and I have been hit numerous times...I have broken ribs diving for balls in play, cracked bones from being hit, you name it in regional and national tournaments at all levels. I have had the ball whiz by the ole cranium a few times as well....

There is protective equipment (cup, leg guards underneath the uniform, rib ) that helps. But the fact is you have to accept the risk, be able to field your position, increase your distance from the plate during the pitch, or have the reflexes to get out of the way. If you can't do this anymore, it's time to move to first or catcher.
Sept. 19, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I made a huge mistake
thinking RochBob was a heckling, inconsiderate
thread crasher and said things above
that do not apply to him, one iota.
To Bob, especially , and to everyone else,
I am sorry.

I spoke with Bob for about 1/2 an hour earlier
and he's simply a great guy
who's running a terrific SSUSA tournament
in Rochester, Minnesota in June of 2007.

Check it out.
I'd love to go.

Robert Adams
http://leaguelineup.com/smss

Sept. 19, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
Einstein thinks anyone that uses exclamation points is me!!!!!! What other mistakes have you made?

Anyways, just got back from Seattle. After talking with an umpire, on Saturday, he said there were two separate incidents. One must be the ASA 98, but the other was a painted original Ultra, the gray one. Don't know what division or what it was painted to resemble. According to him, both players received a one years suspension.

Should be lifetime.
Sept. 19, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Never too late to bury the ax, Bax.
How do you like that, we agree on something.
The more I think about it
the more lifetime ban seems appropriate.

Sept. 19, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
Einstein, remember my first e-mail to you that said, "let's be friends?"
Sept. 19, 2006
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Dbax from we heard the past weekend the painted ultra was done up like a UII. The graphics were supposed have been done crooked. Rain and all very well run tournament. Saw nothing unusual in the games I played except some really good hitters. UII + strong players in cool weather = long homeruns.
Sept. 19, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
I was there watching my lady in the womens 40's. They played at Starfire Complex. 285' fences. Saw probably 10 homeruns way out of the park! The balls were really flying. Why someone needed something better than an Ultra II is beyond me!
Some guys just need to cheat. Probably has been all his life, in softball and everyday life.
Sept. 20, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bax,
Looks like we've cleared the air between us
and no one died.
This is a good thing.
Hope to see you in Palm Springs or Vegas
so I can shake your hand, too.
I've heard stuff that 1 year suspensions have been handed out
to 2 players in Seattle.
SSUSA needs to let us know the basics as this topic
is very important to all of us.

I feel the crime, irrespective of the player is egregious
and like Dbax, a lifetime ban would be appropos.
I think a message needs to be sent to one and all
this is not to be attempted in the future
under any circumstances.

Sept. 20, 2006
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
A commentary only and not to be construed as containing FACTS for any future case:

Bashbro1 who lives across the street from Russell road and not far from all the designated venues taking 449 pictures during the two weeks the SSUSA gang was here, was on hand for some of the unfortunate goings on. I will not divulge names or faces in either of the two alleged altered bat incidents as discussed in the above threads; but suffice it to say, they both have rather unique and interesting circumstances surrounding them.

Incident 1: I call this one alleged illegal bat case #1. As noted above, it was of Easton manufacture. What drew the attention of officials and other on-lookers was that the freaking’ end-cap went flying off after the ball was struck! Hum? That might raise some suspicion even by a Great grandma in the stands. Most of us know that the doctoring of some bats like “rolling”, “shaving” or anything that increases the inside diameter of the bat by thinning the outer wall surfaces from the factory usually requires having to remove the end cap.

So, these bat docs being amateurs can have some difficulty in providing the same manufacturing bond of the end-cap to the inside barrel of the bat. Like others have mention previously… why use an altered bat like an Easton scxx when the Ultra2 is allowed?? I’m sure a case can be made for that but it does seem strange knowing the performance of a U2. Now having said all that, I do know that end-caps can come flying off from a poor manufacturing process and I’m in no way speculating what the case was here and I’ll let the official inspectors determine that.

Incident 2: I call this one alleged illegal bat case #2. Here was a case of not altering the performance of a bat but “masking” the appearance to conceal greater performance to gain an edge on your opponent and teammates as well I guess (I can hit further than you). Some have noted the bat was “painted” over but my guess is that it was just a decal graphics of a U2 and not a full fledge paint over because painting requires a very expensive proprietary machine that can paint on curved surfaces and in essence performs a sophisticated silk screening of numerous paint layers one after another that only manufactures have capability to do in doing the job.

The rumor on the street as to what “triggered” this incident was that the bat in question was observed time and time again being urgently and immediately ushered by a particular player back to a ‘safe’ location away from the dugout bat rack. This repetitive behavior is what piqued official interest and subsequently an inquiry was made.

Another really bazaar circumstance in case #2 is that it was also rumored that this alleged alter bat was being used on a team that Miken sponsored, of all things (understand that there are many Miken sponsored teams out there so stop trying to make a connection with a team name) and that the relationship may be severed upon any future negative findings yet to be researched.

Again the above verbiage was some eye witness account along with lots and lots of hearsay and speculation and no decisions about culpability should be culled from the above accounts. I will let these two scenarios play out in the proper courts.

Bashbro1 (Playing with the Arizona Avis SST in the LVSSA Masters end of Sept.)

Sept. 20, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
Bashbro1 you crack me up.
Sept. 20, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks for the observations and insights, Bash.
I didn't know the end cap actually came off
during a game.
What a picture!
But, as many have pointed out,
the users/abusers of illegal bats have became many and bold behind the absence of appropriate enforcement
policies.

I heard SSUSA is waiting for all the information
and testing results to come in before the
announce the findings which is understandable
but let not time dampen the importance
of clear and loud definitive action.
Sept. 20, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks for the observations and insights, Bash.
I didn't know the end cap actually came off
during a game.
What a picture!
But, as many have pointed out,
the users/abusers of illegal bats have became many and bold behind the absence of appropriate enforcement
policies.

I heard SSUSA is waiting for all the information
and testing results to come in before the
announce the findings which is understandable
but let not time dampen the importance
of clear and loud definitive action.
Sept. 20, 2006
Masters12
8 posts
This is Keith Bressman player/coach of the NW Masters. I usually do not come on this message board but felt a need to tell some history of the player and what I know of the incident in Seattle.
First off the team this year was made up of six guys from Washington, seven from Oregon and one from Idaho. We are spread out through the states and other than four of us from Oregon we only get together at the tournaments. The player involved in the incident is from Seattle.
I have played two years with the player involved. Last year we played 40+ & 45+ Worlds together. The team was partially sponsored by DeMarini, so the player last year swung a DeMarini EVO. At the ASA 40+ (38 teams) using the EVO the player was 3rd in the tournament in Home Runs and runner up to the batting champion in average. At the 45+ (same bat, 13 teams) the player was 2nd in Home Runs & the tournament Batting Champion. The EVO broke in BP during the off season.
This season, his first at 50+, the player started the year swinging a green Easton Stealth comp + (USSSA bat) and swung that through the SSUSA Western Worlds in Reno. At the end of our last game in Reno, in which we won, we moved our equipment out of the dugout to the grass area beside the dugout; at that time we all went to the tournament directors table to receive our awards and to get a few beers to celebrate. When we returned to our equipment the green Easton was gone. We asked the team (Stixx) in the dugout if one of them had picked it up by mistake and they had not. I have played with the Stixx team and believe they did not pick it up.
So the bat was gone (Stolen or missing whatever). We next played the USSSA tournament in Salem where the player hit one of my bats (Worth mayhem) and an old Easton Synergy of one of our other players until it cracked. The next tournament we played was in Seattle and he had the new Blue Synergy that was confiscated, he told me he had just got it from a friend. None of the rest of us had seen the bat before and no one but the player involved hit it in the tournament. To that point he had led the team in home runs 4 of our 6 tournaments using the three different bats and led the 40+ & 45+ team the previous year in home runs using the DeMarini. In the 8 years we have played against this player he always hit home runs, so no one including me thought anything of him hitting home runs with the blue Easton. The end cap did not come off of the bat as stated above. If the bat comes back from the lab altered then the player should serve the penalty set forth by the rules. If most of you don’t agree with the penalty rule then band together and get them changed to your satisfaction. The player was not allowed to play last weekend in the SSUSA 40+ Worlds.
For my part I have coached softball for 16 years, normally 2 to 3 teams each season as I did this season (40+, 45+, & 50+). I have around 50 players on the 3 teams and I do not have the time to check every players bats or other equipment and am probably not going to in the future. So if as the coach, I am to be lynched by all of you in the innocent masses then so be it. Just get on with it and have the associations send me a letter banning me for 1 year, 2 year, or life, so that I can make plans on my time and all of the money that I spend each year supporting these associations.

Keith Bressman
Sept. 20, 2006
Dbax
Men's 60
1280 posts
I guess I should clarify myself. When I said the player should be banned for life, I was referring to someone using an altered bat.
Sept. 20, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts

I played with Keith and against Keith for some time now
and I have met quite a few players in Senior softball
but none of them is a better person or teammate
than Keith.
I don't know either of the guys this post has been about
at all.
And I don't know why Bashbro and Keith have differing accounts about the cap falling off which bears some significance,
but I do know that altered and dangerous bat-using
is a very serious thing.
SSUSA needs to define, loud and clear
what our policy is going to be regarding
dangerous cheating with altered bats.
And I want it to be a meaningfully loud and clear
"Don't even think about it" type consequence.

I think lifetime ban with the option for re-instatement
deserves serious consideration.
I think the team as a team and not as its members
should be sanctioned because there's no doubt most to all of the guys on their respective teams knew what was going on.

We been talkin about it for a while
and now here's an opportunity
to do something about it
for those of us who like to do more
than talk.


Sept. 20, 2006
Masters12
8 posts
Thanks Einstein for the good words, I to have enjoyed you as a teammate and also an opponent. As it should be in America it doesn't look like we are always going to agree on all points of an issue. As I tend to be long winded I wrote the following before I read your last post, I do agree with the seriousness of the crime and stand by my words that follow.

Dbax I guess I should clarify myself. I agree that any player using an altered bat should be penalized to the utmost extent of the associations rule. Unfortunately for those that believe the ban should be for life on the first offense, the SSUSA rule 8.4(7) “Penalty for using an illegal or altered bat” states “If a bat is suspected of being altered to enhance performance, the tournament director or umpire will determine if the bat will continue in play or be held for inspection. If the player refuses to turn over the bat, the player will be banned for two years and the team will forfeit all games. If the player voluntarily releases the bat and the bat is found to be altered, the player will be suspended for one year. The second offense may result in a lifetime ban of the player.”

In the past I served 9 years as an ASA Player Rep and on several different softball associations’ advisory committees. So if you want to change the rules you have to step up into the softball political realm as a group and be heard. I don’t believe much will get changed by posting on a message board that a minority of the players actually read. Unless of course you get together and get on the advisory boards or go to the summit meetings to be heard.

My reference to lynching came from several of the posts above that want to penalize the whole team. I disagree as I do not believe, at least on my team it is not the truth, that most of the players know everything or anything about each other. Most of the players on my team live more than 50 miles apart and some hundreds of miles, and do not practice together, play league together, or do any personal events together. Their main connection is through me. We only get together to play softball at the tournaments. So in clarifying my above reference, this is what I meant, if the majority of you feel that more than the player with the bat should be penalized and the SSUSA agrees then I will take that penalty, but do not feel that any of the other players should be penalized. I do not believe that any of my other players knew anything about the bat. But I will leave those decisions to those that have the power to make them. I hope I have clarified myself.

Keith Bressman
Sept. 20, 2006
Masters12
8 posts
Thanks Einstein for the good words, I to have enjoyed you as a teammate and also an opponent. As it should be in America it doesn't look like we are always going to agree on all points of an issue. As I tend to be long winded I wrote the following before I read your last post, I do agree with the seriousness of the crime and stand by my words that follow.

Dbax I guess I should clarify myself. I agree that any player using an altered bat should be penalized to the utmost extent of the associations rule. Unfortunately for those that believe the ban should be for life on the first offense, the SSUSA rule 8.4(7) “Penalty for using an illegal or altered bat” states “If a bat is suspected of being altered to enhance performance, the tournament director or umpire will determine if the bat will continue in play or be held for inspection. If the player refuses to turn over the bat, the player will be banned for two years and the team will forfeit all games. If the player voluntarily releases the bat and the bat is found to be altered, the player will be suspended for one year. The second offense may result in a lifetime ban of the player.”

In the past I served 9 years as an ASA Player Rep and on several different softball associations’ advisory committees. So if you want to change the rules you have to step up into the softball political realm as a group and be heard. I don’t believe much will get changed by posting on a message board that a minority of the players actually read. Unless of course you get together and get on the advisory boards or go to the summit meetings to be heard.

My reference to lynching came from several of the posts above that want to penalize the whole team. I disagree as I do not believe, at least on my team it is not the truth, that most of the players know everything or anything about each other. Most of the players on my team live more than 50 miles apart and some hundreds of miles, and do not practice together, play league together, or do any personal events together. Their main connection is through me. We only get together to play softball at the tournaments. So in clarifying my above reference, this is what I meant, if the majority of you feel that more than the player with the bat should be penalized and the SSUSA agrees then I will take that penalty, but do not feel that any of the other players should be penalized. I do not believe that any of my other players knew anything about the bat. But I will leave those decisions to those that have the power to make them. I hope I have clarified myself.

Keith Bressman
Sept. 20, 2006
Masters12
8 posts
Thanks Einstein for the good words, I to have enjoyed you as a teammate and also an opponent. As it should be in America it doesn't look like we are always going to agree on all points of an issue. As I tend to be long winded I wrote the following before I read your last post, I do agree with the seriousness of the crime and stand by my words that follow.

Dbax I guess I should clarify myself. I agree that any player using an altered bat should be penalized to the utmost extent of the associations rule. Unfortunately for those that believe the ban should be for life on the first offense, the SSUSA rule 8.4(7) “Penalty for using an illegal or altered bat” states “If a bat is suspected of being altered to enhance performance, the tournament director or umpire will determine if the bat will continue in play or be held for inspection. If the player refuses to turn over the bat, the player will be banned for two years and the team will forfeit all games. If the player voluntarily releases the bat and the bat is found to be altered, the player will be suspended for one year. The second offense may result in a lifetime ban of the player.”

In the past I served 9 years as an ASA Player Rep and on several different softball associations’ advisory committees. So if you want to change the rules you have to step up into the softball political realm as a group and be heard. I don’t believe much will get changed by posting on a message board that a minority of the players actually read. Unless of course you get together and get on the advisory boards or go to the summit meetings to be heard.

My reference to lynching came from several of the posts above that want to penalize the whole team. I disagree as I do not believe, at least on my team it is not the truth, that most of the players know everything or anything about each other. Most of the players on my team live more than 50 miles apart and some hundreds of miles, and do not practice together, play league together, or do any personal events together. Their main connection is through me. We only get together to play softball at the tournaments. So in clarifying my above reference, this is what I meant, if the majority of you feel that more than the player with the bat should be penalized and the SSUSA agrees then I will take that penalty, but do not feel that any of the other players should be penalized. I do not believe that any of my other players knew anything about the bat. But I will leave those decisions to those that have the power to make them. I hope I have clarified myself.

Keith Bressman
Sept. 20, 2006
Masters12
8 posts
Sorry about the triple post of such a long message. I don't know what happened I only replied once.

Keith Bressman
Sept. 20, 2006
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Bash,
You got me, man.
I failed to realize in all that fluff
you qualified your remarks in the very first sentence
saying what you were about to talk about
doesn't contain any facts.
So you're not accountable for one thing you said,
inferred or meant.

The end cap never went flying.
Keith was right.

Your incredible, man.
Very creative.
Knock yourself out, dude.
Or maybe you already have.
Sept. 20, 2006
ScooterSC
2 posts
Hey einstein, Scooter from No Dice here. Can you please email me at sbeaston@sbcglobal.net. Thanks
Sept. 21, 2006
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
612 posts
I want to thank a few of you on this thread because it made me go out and look a little further on some things that I probably had not paid as much attention to as I should have. The umpire should always be the first line of defense with altered bats, but with so many new models coming out, it is sometimes much harder to do than in the good old days when all bats were known. I had not really looked at the changes for NSA this year which is the organization that most tournaments that I have been involved with are sanctioned as. There are some good points in the write-up of the use of altered bats or balls. The penalties for the first offense are between two and five years without the right of appeal, much of that depends on the willingness of the offender to cooperate and give up the equipment for test. The responsibility of the alteration rests with the user/owner without regard to prior knowledge of alteration. So I guess that this is a good plug for a reputable vendor. Of course situations that I have been involved in, everyone seems to be aware of a doctored bat.
I found the section on altered balls probably the most interesting as that has not been an issue here yet, but I have heard of situations where it was. So as an NSA umpire or player, if the ball feels colder than the outside temperature that I have an obligation to identify it, throw it out, and forfeit the game. Of course this was the most obvious of the altered ball examples given.
Sept. 22, 2006
observer
7 posts
testing post message
Sept. 29, 2006
Robo2
223 posts
Altered bats remain a real problem because unfortunately some individuals feel they need to get an edge. I heard in a league last week from a player on the opposing team that one can submit a bat for $100 (any kind) and it would be doctored and have more life than the Ultra II. This will not stop. Lets be real.

I say let the Ultra II be used in all associations and level the legal playing field. If safety is an issue for the pitcher, allow a screen and if one hits it, it is a live ball. Most ball players (at least the ones I know) do not want to hit the middle for fear of hurting another player.

If the UII is not made leagal, have all sanctioned tournaments (qualifiers and nationals) have bats supplied by bat manufacturers. Let them be individually marked for that tournament and no other bats be allowed. The bat manufacturers can sell them after the torunament to the participants.

Eliminate the Home Run rule and let the players hit as many as they can. That is the only way to really allow the best teams to move up and the other teams to play at a level of competition that is more even.
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