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Discussion: WHY SEVEN RUNS PER INNING?

Posted Discussion
July 31, 2014
DD
Men's 60
75 posts
WHY SEVEN RUNS PER INNING?
Coming down to my last weekend on vacation in San Diego...and with way too much time on my hands...I find myself asking, "Why seven runs per inning in Major Plus?"

I've played assorted major plus divisions since 2009. Lots of games. Maybe hundreds. If major plus hitters are so damn good to need 7 runs per inning (instead of the more appropriate five) shouldn't tournament game scores reflect higher run totals?

Let's see...seven runs per inning x six or seven innings (one of them open) should routinely generate game scores with both teams in the high 30's and 40s, at least...maybe even breaking 50 once in awhile.

They don't. Most major plus game scores are in the same range as many other divisions...you can look it up.

What seven runs per inning does do, however, is eliminate the possibility of a seven inning game.

It's time to end the silliness...bring back 5 runs per inning and seven inning games to Major Plus. And while we're at it, drop the homerun limit to 6. Rarely does any team hit 9 out, anyway.

Thank you.
July 31, 2014
Dbax
Men's 60
1294 posts
Have to agree with all of this.
Aug. 1, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1305 posts
Then you both with be "at odds" with the Major+ players who proposed, and strongly advocated, 7 Runs per inning because (paraphrasing) "...With only 5 runs per inning, just when you get in the groove, the inning ends. Seven runs is better for us since we can score so easily and so often..." ... This change was made at the Major+ players' request ...
Aug. 1, 2014
softball4b
Men's 60
765 posts
Now that Webbie is playing with you, I expect that is worth 7 run an at bat.
Aug. 1, 2014
DD
Men's 60
75 posts
El Staffo---at odds....???...decidely so.

Those players who proposed and advocated seven runs per inning no doubt had the best of intentions, but the empirical data just doesn't support their contention,

Even at 5 runs per inning and an open, Major Plus games should feature scores with both teams routinely in the 30s...do the math.

But, they don't. Look it up.

So much for "groove" theory.

Aug. 1, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1305 posts
It was "their theory", maybe one not supported by the facts when the benefit of 20-20 hindsight is employed ... Which is also "at odds" with the 40-Masters Division history that has ALWAYS played 5 runs per ˝-inning at bat, with a total complaint department incident count of zero since the inception of their program ... Rule changes are made at the Convention, so we'll certainly listen to whatever this year's popular theory might be ...
Aug. 1, 2014
Mango
Men's 50
92 posts
SSUSA- Thanks for listening!

The higher the runs per inning the more important defense becomes. Anyone that has played at the plus level for any period of time would probably agree. A couple years ago it was 9 runs an inning and I would like to see it go back to that. We had a player boot a double play ball that ended up costing us 9 runs. We lost by 3 runs. Had there been a 5 run limit we would have won the game. We still don’t speak that player’s name :-)

As far as the run totals. Run totals are a product of a number of things (home runs being one of the things that was changed this year to perhaps depress run totals) but one of the most important factors is the amount of time you have to score runs. 99% of the games have time limits and this is a big factor in how many runs you can score.

And can someone explain to me the thought process where one thinks they are getting to play more softball because they play 7 innings. If you have played a 7 inning game in 55 minute and a 5 inning game in 70 minutes-who has played more softball?
Aug. 1, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1305 posts
Mango ... The principal "detail point" in the debate surrounding the decision to increase the number of runs per ˝-inning at-bat, up from the five played by other divisions, was the stated desire by the Major+ players to maximize individual player at-bats, as opposed to innings, in any given game ... The thrust of the argument was that an extra couple of runs per at-bat met that desire rather than the 5th run prematurely killing the inning and lessening aggregate at-bats ... Whether or not that is in fact true is irrelevant, but it did convince a majority of the Rules Committee that it was a meritorious argument ...

Aug. 1, 2014
Mango
Men's 50
92 posts
SSUSA Staff- Right!!!! I agree with that point as well! More runs per inning should result in more aggregate at bats. I was merely pointing out an additional benefit of 7 vs 5,the added importance of defense. Again-Thanks for listening to Plus Players and letting them have a voice in shaping the game they play.
Aug. 1, 2014
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1006 posts
I find it interesting that DD points out how Major plus doesn't score that much on one account and then says how we don't get in enough innings... So which is it? ;-)
Aug. 2, 2014
stick8
1318 posts
Mango was that you that booted that double play ball? lol Sorry, couldn't resist that one.
How've you been?
Aug. 2, 2014
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
Swing...
My money would be on neither of those. but rather it would be;
1st; TIME alloted per game,
2nd; runs,
3rd; innings
Aug. 3, 2014
Mango
Men's 50
92 posts
Hey Stick,
I'm doing well, thanks. How about you? Who are you playing with this year and will you be coming to Vegas?
Also do you know of any 50 Major Plus teams from back in your area who will be coming out? Please encourage them all-it should be a good World Series.
Aug. 3, 2014
stick8
1318 posts
Mango, things are well. I'm still with OKI and yes we plan on playing in Vegas. There is another pretty strong 50 major plus team from the our area, DLB Purchasing, that will be in Vegas as well. Two of our guys traveled to California and played a couple tournaments with God Sports earlier this year. They said the competition was pretty strong so it should be a good tournament. Do you know which complex they will use for the 50 major plus?
Aug. 4, 2014
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Dennis-on this one I have to disagree with you. I know the scores aren't that much higher, but defenses are better. Having the 7 run per inning allowance in major plus does put more of a premium on defense. The fact that there are not as many 7 run innings as you might expect give you a more realistic score for the games, as not as many innings are stopped before there are 3 outs. And, keep in mind there is a large difference between 50 M+ and 60 M+. The 9 hrs and 7 runs is a bigger factor in 50 M+. I have advocated an extra 10 minutes playing time in bracket play for major plus. There really are not that many M+ teams and it does not add that much time.
Mike-c'mon-one guy does not make that much difference! LOL
Aug. 4, 2014
DD
Men's 60
75 posts
As I said starting this thread, I've been on vacation and unable to get to the computer to respond. Thanks to those who take issue with my premise. Let me reply.

First, to Rich (Swing 4 etc): I don't mean to say we NEVER score seven runs in an inning...we do occasionally...my 65 team scored 4 of them in a row in Reno in the title game. So it does happen...but only as often as to essentially ruin most games by shortening them to 6 or even 5 innings. Since the expansion of runs allowed (first 9 and then 7) fewer than 10% of all non-championship games in Major Plus go seven innings. At over $120/game, that's unacceptable.

Now, to Dave (Mango): Defense is important at any level, not just major plus. As you'll see later, the argument that Major Plus teams play better defense does not hold water, either. As for using the 7 runs per inning mechanism to get more at bats...well, what is so sacred about getting 4 ABs in a game? Wouldn't 5 or 6 plate appearances be better? And, as for who plays more softball, let me ask you the same question---games that go 5 innings in 70 minutes...or games that go 7 innings in 90 minutes?
SSUSA proved a few years ago when they raised the time limits by a mere 5 minutes that 7 innings were quite reachable---WITH A 5 RUN LIMIT. They should go back to that standard.

And, my good friend, Mark (Webbie): You know my passion for the defensive side of the game. I would love to believe your contention...however...I can't. Nobody plays better defense than those 40 year olds we saw at Reno...simply stupendous plays left and right---ahhhhh, young legs. But, their average game score in Reno was 23-18 (41 total runs) in 48 games played. By contrast, the average 50 Major plus score was 25-17 (42 total runs) in 25 games; the average 55 Major Plus score was 26-18 (44 total runs) in only 12 played; and the average 60 Major Plus score was 19-14 (33 total runs) in 12 played.

The 40 Masters with 5 runs per inning have game scores commensurate with the highest levels of older division play. The only way for older Major Plus division teams to score more runs is to let them play seven innings.

Reducing the number of runs allowed per inning from seven to five will enable them to do that.
Aug. 5, 2014
Tim Millette
499 posts
Why I think it should be five.....

The main reason there is any inning run total in any division is to try to keep game scores close when two teams of unequal abilities play each other.

Since Plus ball has the same talent spread as every other Division, all the seven instead of five runs does is widen the scoring difference at the end of the game.

Since there are more then a couple experienced senior players and SSUSA staff on the thread...how about on other rule to consider....

Since the seeding games set a ranking of all teams in the tourney...why not....in an attempt to keep the lower ranked teams from getting badly blown out....the higher ranked team is always home team...ie...does NOT get to bat in the open inning unless they are tied or behind and....once they go ahead by one run...the game is over..
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