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Discussion: The Truth About Bats And Balls

Posted Discussion
July 5, 2004
Sam Lee
Men's 60
31 posts
The Truth About Bats And Balls
If the Catalyst is hotter than the U2 then why is the U2 banned and the Catalyst legal in all the same associations that banned the U2? You cannot tell me that the Catalyst has a batted ball speed(BBS) of 116 mph and the U2 has a BBS of 105 or 106, or whatever, and that the Catalyst is legal. In my opinion, this is just hype to sell bats. You take your 116BBS Catalyst to the park and I will take my 105BBS U2 and we will see.
It is pure hype/foolishness, in my opinion, to think that a bat with a BBS of 116mph is legal when the standard is 98mph and not to exceed 100mph.
What I get out of this is that the players would like to have their U2s back or some similar bat. So why don't we just refuse to play unless we can use or good bats!!!

July 5
Sam Lee
Division: Mens' 60
Posts: 3
I guarantee you that if every 60 team, or 15 or 20 teams from across the entire senior s/b spectrum told , for example, Ridge Hooks that we refuse to play SPA this year unless we can use our good bats(U2) then changes would be made.
These associations should be run for the benefit of the players and not the associations and the bat companies who are all in it just to make money at our expense.

And SSUSA needs to wake up to the fact that allowing the U2 and SCX2 is great but that is only half of the equasion. The other half is the ball. Balls lose about 5% compression for every 1 degree rise in heat above 72. At least that benchmark applies to Worth balls b/c they test at 72 degrees.

So a 375lb compression ball at 72 degrees is closer to a 175lb compression ball at 95 degrees.

So when you play SPA in the heat in Plano in September then that 47 cor , 525lb compression ball is really about 200 lbs LESS.
And you will hit a low performance bat-compared to the U2. About 5% less and that translates into 15 feet on a 300 ft park and that is a bunch.
Further, reduce the ball compression by 200lbs and you have been reduced by another 15 feet or so.
Think about it.
July 5, 2004
Sam Lee
Men's 60
31 posts
If the word that I got indirectly from Worth is correct, and and the ball loses 5% for every degree rise above 72 degrees, then method for determining the lbs of compression at a given temperature would be something like this: At 90 degrees subtract 72 for a difference of 18 and then multiply .95 times the ball compression (say, 525) 18 times.

If my math is correct then I get 208.5 lbs of compression at 90 degrees.

For a similar information with a slightly different result see the USSSA website http://www.usssa.com/sports/Home.asp?Sport=17 and click on 2004 Slow Pitch Balls.

Now , anyone who thinks that he is going to Gadsden to play NSA nationals (or Plano for SPA in Sept) and hit a 47 cor, high compression 525lb ball needs to check first with the weatherman.

Does it make you wonder if maybe us seniors should break out the 50 cor so we can have a little fun.

My 60 major team played SSUSA in Auburn a couple of weeks ago and, using the U2 and hitting a 44cor, 375lb compression ball, we hit no homeruns and none was hit against us. But the fields were great and the tourny was well run and it was nice and hot and we should have been hitting 47 cor , 535lb compression balls at minimum.

Who needs homerun rules for each divisions if power is nullified by the ball and the heat.

July 5, 2004
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
Sam-
Yours is a most interesting perspective - one that I've not seen explained so well.

Our team, the Houston Texans Major +, played in the ISF in Virginia a couple of weeks ago. We had a nice 9-home run limit with 1-up. We played 4 games and our team hit a TOTAL of 3 home runs. The ball was a Worth Gold Dot that I could not read even early in the game. It was supposed to be a 44 COR, 375 compression ball. RB Thomas told us the "good" balls did not get there in time for us to use them. One of our guys sent one of the game balls to be tested and it came back rated at 300 compression.

Like you say, Sam, I'm with you on using good bats OR good balls. Don't regulate out the differences in the classifications. I guarantee you, if we had played some of the A or B class teams rated below us in the tournament, we would have had a very difficult time beating them with our power negated by the balls. To me, that is the biggest difference in the classifications anyway - the power the higher rated teams supposedly have.

Your softball buddy, Larry Lopez
July 5, 2004
Sam Lee
Men's 60
31 posts
When it comes to banning $300 bats, I say control the game through the use of a $5 ball.

Obviously, it can be controlled that way as evidenced by our recent experience in Auburn and yours in Virginia. We were both using U2s.

Why have homerun limits for each division if no one even comes close to the limit?

As far safety, the game is inherently dangerous. Further, if the U2 were really dangerous then it would have been recalled. You recall dangerous products. But the U2 is still on the market as of today.

Were the associations fooled into approving the U2? Of course not. The U1 preceeded the U2. It was a shot across the bow. It rocked the softball world. So no one was surprised when the U2 came out and initially EVERYONE approved it. ASA put a stamp on it and collected a $1 royalty for each bat sold. What a scam!!! Then ASA changed the testing standard and banned even U2s bought BEFORE the new standard was announced.

Today, you can buy a U2 with an ASA stamp on it.

What happened, in my opinion, was that suddenly the aluminum bat manufacturers who had dominated the market for years were selling almost no bats in the men's slow pitch market. So they applied the pressure on the associations and the U2 got bannned.

I could go on and on but instead, I am going to lunch.

July 5, 2004
JoeHardy
11 posts
You are absolutely right!! I'm tired of having to buy a new bat every six months because they get banned. There is no question about it, someone is making a lot of money over the banning of bats. I suspect bat manufactures. Now, we have to contend with ball compessions,,,,,when is it going to stop. Hey, home runs are a part of the game. Come up with a standard and stick with it. The new scam now is to sells bats for low compression balls and high compression balls. Now they have us buying two bats instead of one, It's sad because we buy their bats because we are competitive and love the game,,,,,,,what will they think of next!!
July 5, 2004
Sam Lee
Men's 60
31 posts
In response to Larry's comments about the 300 lbs compression ball. Was it tested at room temperature(72) and found to be 300lbs of compression? If so, then imagine what the real compression was at 90 degrees or at whatever temperature you were playing.

Further, as long as the association furnishes the balls then there is no telling what they really are. A manufacturer can "customize" a ball for an association and stamp it as they please and then all you know is what the stamp says.

The only way to guarantee what ball you are hitting is to furnish your own. Let the association furnish the ball shaggers, if they want to do something consructive.

And maybe the associations' presidents and tourny directors should all sign a Ball Policy Statement and if we catch them cheating then all teams get a fee refund and --yes and- the association is banned from all softball for 2 years with no right to a hearing. Just presumed guiltly intent.

And the challenging manager will in charge of the ball and the testing. And there will be no consequences to the manager if the ball really is as stamped.

Did you think this would be adopted by the Summit?

July 5, 2004
Sam Lee
Men's 60
31 posts
Is there some way to spell check or edit these messages? My typing is not all that good.
July 5, 2004
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
Sam-
I don't know if the ball was tested at room temperature or not; I;ll ask my contact. In any event, in Virginia, the best bat we could use was the Freak, so you know we were sacrificing a lot on the bats and with the sock balls, there were a lot of complaints.

Interestingly, RB Thomas told Randy that he got more complaints from the older guys (65+ and up) about the balls because they could not get them through in infield!

On the spell-check issue, I think you are on your own!
July 5, 2004
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
Sam-
I love your idea of holding the assocations responsible for the balls being as marked! I think we should run this by our main man, Gary Tryhorn, to see if we can get it adopted by the Summit at the next meeting.

Then, in my next dream....
July 5, 2004
sjuhoops
123 posts
LL this hank from ny and vegas. how are you. we played in palm springs recently asa world series qualifier. 375 compression sock. three home runs the whole weekend. we played 10 gmes in two days. not a lot of fun. we have over two hundred seniors some over 75 years young that play here in vegas on tues and thur morning and almost everyone has the ultra ll. take that away from them and give them a sock to hit they cant reach the outfield. read bruce w. post about your 7-5 barn burner with sams team in manassas. must have enjojed that. would like to do something to get this changed. you need my help on anything let me know. hopefully i will see you in plano as i will be with ny in the 55's. say hello to pam
hank
July 6, 2004
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
Hank-Good to hear from you! Hope all is well with you and the family in Vegas!

Yeah, the stuff we've seen the last couple of year's is starting to take a lot of fun out of the game we love. I certainly don't mind using non-composite bats IF we get to hit decent balls. However, what they have now done - and I admit, Walk predicted it last year - is to give us balls that don't hold up for a game while, at the same time, dis-allowing the bats that got us to this situation.

We played in the USSSA in Blaine last year and the ball was a Dudley Heat that was no good. We are not a team that dinks the ball around and runs like the wind like some other teams can. So, for us, this is no fun. If we know in advance we will be using socks all year, we will change our team to allow us to be competitive.

To make a long story shorter, it would be nice if we knew up-front what the rules will be and the balls and bats not be changed during the year.

LL

July 6, 2004
Dale
Men's 50
76 posts
This whole bats and balls discussion is quite amusing.
Men, we are playing slow pitch softball. Remember, that's the game that was invented for people who could no longer play fast pitch softball or baseball.
The best teams have players who can play defense, run the bases, hit for average as well as hit the long ball. I'm the first to admit that the equipment technology has changed the game that I love. I still love the game and hope to play for many years to come, However, when I hit or mis-hit a mush ball, I chalk it up to the game not a defect in the equipment (ball or bat) I used.
True, slow pitch was invented for the offensive-minded, but HR's are not what this game was to be about, It was to keep the defense on it's toes and in the game as well. Fundamentals of the game are not taught or practiced as much as they used to be. I know that I'll be blasted on this site for my views 'cause I'm just speaking for the little guy who does the little things well. I guess, in essence, we're talking about 2 differnet kinds of slow pitch softball. I'm all for the HR, but I'd rather see someone make a diving catch in the outfield or see a team execute a perfect cut-off play to nail a runner trying to take an extra base. To me that's slow pitch softball.
July 6, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Dale: Thanks for your psot. I am not going to bash you for your opinion as i went down this road 25 years ago when we tried to introduce 1 piece poly core balls into our area. The bigger teams were all for it and the smaller teams hat wanted the sb12's and cork centered balls were all against it. That is kinda understandable. Problem is that sometimes the smaller teams will have to play the bigger teams and if the ball is not suited for decent flight, then it could get ugly. Please try to understand my point about guys who will attempt to go deep. They very seldom ever hit middle. The amount of time that they actually hit a home run might be at 1 in every 4 at bats with a couple of either mis hit balls or line drives that did not go up enough to go out. Maybe the answer for all is the 525 compression balls for upper play and a 375 compression for lower play. What do you think, maybe i am onto something there.
Thanks
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 6, 2004
Dale
Men's 50
76 posts
Possibly a solution. But give me a team of 10 players with gap power, who can run the bases and go get it on defense and I'll play anybody with any ball/bat.
No disrespect for the long ball, but those teams live and die by the long ball and if it's not leaving the park, then they say it's the fault of the equipment.
I don't want to get in a back and forth with anyone, I just wanted to state my opinion. Thanks for listening. I feel better. End of discussion.
July 6, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Well I will voice my opinion on this subject and the other two that are similar. Now before I say some things that may upset people please remember I am no expert and I am nobody. I have just been lucky enough to play on some of the best teams in the country both old and young and I have a few contacts that can help me out with questions.

First this idea that power hitters cry about the ball and the equipment when they cannot hit the ball out of the park. I do understand it seems to be that way but what is missing here is what Larry said about the ISF tournament and what the tournament director said to him. He said that the ones who complained the most were the 65 teams because „they could not hit the ball out of the infield.‰ Now what is wrong with that picture? If the ball is so bad that base hitters cannot hit the ball out of the infield then maybe it is not just all the power hitters who complain. You see when these TD go to these low compression softballs to cut out the home runs or to cut back on them they forget this is senior softball and the ripple affect also gets the older players who are base hitters.

This year my senior league here is town went to a really bad softball. The first night I was greeted with this statement „We have found a ball you cannot hit out of the park!‰ I replied „if I cannot hit it out of the park then explain how the rec. league will hit it out of the infield‰ Well 11 weeks later and the teams who have indicated that if the ball is not changed they will not be back are the base hitting rec. teams. 11 weeks later and the league is now looking at changing the ball. It never crossed their mind that the older guys would not be able to hit the ball out of the infield. In fact if you go watch some of their games it looks like there are 8 infielders with a pitchers and catcher. Ask those base hitters and they will tell you they want the better ball or at least the better bats.

Now for the ISF tournament and what happened there. I did take some of the softballs from the tournament and I always do. I like to collect the softballs used in world tournaments I play in. This time I decided to take an extra one to have tested. The reason why is because I have been testing some 300 compression softballs for a company to see how long they last and to me this felt like a 300 compression softball. I sent the ball off and it was tested in a perfect test environment. Which would be at the 72 degrees. It came back it was a 300 compression softball which meant that it would be a less than 200 compression softball in the weather we were playing in. Now the problem here is not that we used that ball but that the tournament was advertised as a tournament that was using 44/375. Now we or I should say Larry was told that the softballs order for the tournament did not arrive in time. I am not saying the TD lied but I do find that hard to believe since this tournament had been scheduled for over a year. In fact this is not the first time this TD has said this and I am sure it will not be the last. I also would question the fact that this was an ISF tournament, which means ISF bats where legal, and yet he decided to use the ASA bat standard something many players were not aware of until they arrived. Now why would that happen one should ask and so I tested a theory that I had and that was bats like the Synergy Plus and other 100 + bats would hit the ball better than the ASA bats. I used base hitters and home run hitters for the test with these balls and the conclusion was that yes they did, surprise, surprise. So I do believe things were done to cut down on the home runs. I also believe that if this stuff is knowingly done then the person doing this is no better than the player using a painted bat. The person using a painted bat is changing the game and so is the TD that uses softballs that are not as advertised. I don‚t buy this stuff about not getting the balls in time or this idea that it is ok to go less in compression.

As far as the bats go and why the U2 is illegal and is the Catalyst all hype and if not why is it legal. Ok the U2 was made illegal last year by USSSA because of the Ultra and the perception that Miken lied to the USSSA when it brought the Ultra out. I talked to Donald D about it and they felt betrayed and so they made a point. The U2 was no hotter than the Synergy SCX 2 March batch but in the eyes of USSSA they Miken had lied to them about the Ultra and Easton did not. It also helped that a sponsor who was a Easton team last year but that is another story for another time donated a large donation of money to the USSSA super program. The fact is one bat was banned and one was not and yet both were just as hot. On the other hand and you do not know how much this hurts to say this ASA because of the Worth law suit allowed the U2 and Synergy SCX 2 all of last year. Did they grandfather? No! Why? Well simply put neither bat company pushed for it. If they had filed a lawsuit then you might have seen it happened but they did not. Why is that? Well I have been told Miken settled this by coming out with the Freak and Easton settled this by coming out with the Synergy 2, which can no longer be made with the ASA stamp on it. In my opinion by doing this both companies made more money this way because they sold more bats to replace the bats you can no longer use. Now I will say this Easton will replace the Synergy SCX2 with a new Synergy 2 if you ask.

I am not saying that this stuff is planned but it is thought out very well. Right now we see the Freak Plus and the 98 mph Freak due to come out. Why does Miken need to bring out the 98 mph Freak when it has a 98 mph bat in the V2? Why is the Freak plus hotter than the Freak and legal? Well I believe it is to get us the consumers to buy more bats but once again that is another story for another time. So in the end who is getting screwed here with all these bat rules and changes? The Consumer. Is this about safety? Not really because if it were then the big four association would follow the lead of the senior programs and move the playing field back i.e. the pitchers box but no they don‚t do that. NSA moved its mound back 3 feet but why not have the box if we are really worried about safety? To me my friend said it best and that is this is not about safety. It is about home runs and money. My friend could be right.

Last but not least and I believe me I am apologetic for this being so long the altered bat problem. As I said earlier if the player can be banned for using an altered bat then a TD who lies about the softballs should be punished with that said though this altered bat problem is easy to solve. One guy on each team should step up and be responsible for making sure no altered bats are used in tournament games. We can police this ourselves. Also we need the bat companies to stop making factory bats for players. You don‚t know how many of those are in the game. We also need those who think a altered bat is being used to go to the player first or his team and not make a big production out of it. I understand that this happened in Reno. Will the player who is being accused get upset? Yes but if you do it right between you and him and no one else you might be surprised how easy it is to handle. Also just because someone hits a bomb does not mean he is using an altered bat. Make sure you are right before you accuse someone. I know I have a Synergy 2 right now I got back as a Warranty Return that seems to weigh more than 30 ounces to me. Is that my fault the bat company sent it to me? No! So there has to be a way to address that without accusing someone of using an altered bat. Remember one thing if you accuse someone and the bat goes all the way to the factory and it comes back clean (this really applies for the USSSA because the player must sit down until the bat comes back) then you, the TD, and the association can be sued for liable. I know this because I have checked with several lawyers about this to see what will happen and now signed paper will help here. So just make sure you are right. Last, if senior softball would settle on a core and compression that would be used by all summit members such as a 44/525 softball which is both safe and a good ball to hit then I believe you would see most of the altered bats disappear. Maybe that is wishful thinking but I do believe that.

I am not saying this because I am a home run hitter who is upset about the balls and bats. In fact if they listed the home run hitters of senior softball my name would be very low on the list if it was there at all. I am just saying this as a player who is watching the game die in many associations because of alternative motives.
Walk
55 Major Plus

PS I am sorry about the length of this post. I understand of some do not want to read it.
July 6, 2004
crusher
Men's 70
388 posts
I keep hearing a lot about home runs. I have played 50-55-and now 60 softball. The only time I have seen very many home runs was when we played a true major team like the Texas Legends of 3 or so years ago, NorCal Blue??? of a couple years ago.
The triple A and double A from Phoneix, LV, Penscola, Cullman, Plano, Kansas City, (name the tournament) does not seem (to me) to have the ability to hit many balls out of the park (if at all) using the 47/525. Yes the 47/525 core/compression ball.

I read in the SSUSA (was this SSWC) paper of people always complaining about everyone hitting homeruns by the dozens.
I have played all over the country the last 7 years and the only players I have seen that as a team could hit HR's on a regular basis was Major or Major+ teams.

We need to keep a decent ball.

Mike on someone said if the guys that can hit a long ball is prevented from doing so 'They will start going up the middle'....
That will be bad.
C
July 6, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Walk: You are in the top 10 of true home run hitters playing at any level of senior softball today. What i would not want to wish on anyone else is if you give up hitting home runs because of the balls and start becoming a serious base hitter. I will try this way to explain it better. A man with 400ft power like Bruce Walker sending missles through the infield would not be a pretty thing to watch. Like a time bomb waiting to go off, he would eventually hurt some one and that some one with could be any infielder because of the speed that Bruce could put on line drives and ground balls. The adult slowpitch game has turned to sour grapes because of the lack of home runs and the abundance of middle hitting. I say let the Major and Major players, the guys who really want the high scoring offensive shoot outs say what balls they want to use. We are paying members of these organazations yet they dont include us in on the decisions being made. What is that all about. They dictate to us like we are children or dont know what is good for us. I resent that and feel that they should listen to our concerns more. I have talked to SSUSA and NCSCS about using better balls at there world events, i will continue to push for that but could use some help here. If any other manager would call Terry Hennesy and Kenny Maas and voice there opinion, i think it would make a big difference. Terry's Number is (916) 326-5303, Kenny Maas for Des Moines number is (586) 791-2632.
Thanks for your post Walk.
See ya in Fl.
PS. Don't bring a bat as we are walking you every time. hahaha
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 6, 2004
Lecak
Men's 55
1005 posts
I was watching this discussion with much interest. I will have a team in the over 40 in Las Vegas in late Sept. The interesting part of this discussion for me is the fact that most of my team will be either 50 or nearing 50, most of us in 2 years. Most of the team has no exposure to the 50 and over divisions. We were looking forward to seeing what the future would bring. To get to my reason for writing the people I have been in contact with informed me of a Homerun limit. My original conversation was that there may not be. Apparently there was a game where a team won 38-0 and should have had a perfect game except for an error. So in order to keep the games competitive a HR limit is going to be imposed. I heard through the grapevine( I wasn't there hearsay only) there was not a HR limit in this game and although the score was lopsided no one got hurt. If there are teams entering these tournaments capable of having a perfect game tossed against them I can only imagine the damage that would be done when a small HR limit say 3 is imposed. It has been my experience that teams will stop running, stop putting the ball on the ground but most guys will not give up their good hacks even in a blowout. Tournament directors I would listen to these fellows they sound very wise to me. Thats my opinion only. Any good east coast 50 teams in Vegas there will probably be several guys on this team worth a look if their travel works out.
July 6, 2004
MK39
Men's 50
333 posts
Lecak: The team your refering to was called Mac Construction and they are the defending 40 and over ASA National champions from last year. They won the 40 division in reno and i witnessed some of the 38 to 0 game. That game is the perfect reason why we have different levels of play. I played in 6 different 40 and over nationals and can tell you those teams are tough. Great hitters and the top teams also have the great defense as well. It was a 3 home run limit then in the 40's and will continue to be in the future.
Now the 50's is a different story. You play at the highest level which is Major plus and you get to hit a bunch of home runs but so does the other team and when the conditions are favorable, i would say each team is capable of 5 to 10 jacks a game. Ole Bruce Walker alone hit 4 against our team last year in Des Moines. They hit at least 10 and we hit even more. That is the way we like to play the game = Power hitters game. No one ever gets hurt physically by a home run. Lesser teams get intimadated and teams with confidence fire back. Upper division play is exciting and scores are high. Now these teams can put on basehitting clinics as well and that makes me glad i am a catcher/dh. I think your going to love the 50's when it is your time , just make sure you get in at the level where you can best compete. Good luck in Vegas.
Mike Kelly Kelly's Sports 50+
July 6, 2004
Sam Lee
Men's 60
31 posts
If associations don't want homeruns then just make all of them illegal. Why bother to have limits per division if no team hits enough to matter?

Obviously, the players want to hit a good ball. So why don't the associations provide it?

Very few ,if any, senior players, or players at any level, refused to swing a U2. In fact, banning the U2 gave rise to all the painted bat stuff. So if they players want the U2 then what not let them swing it. If the other manufacturers can't compete then that is their problem . Worth, Easton, etc did not feel sorry for Miken 3 or 4 years ago when Miken could not compete.

I mean, whose interest should be protected? The players or the associations and manufacturers? If it weren't for players then the other two would not exist!!!!

So give the players what they want. Take a vote. I did on my teams. Guess what. On my tourny team it was 14-0 in favor of using the U2 and on my league team it was 11-0 in favor of the U2.

And the associations ban it? For whose benefit? The bat companies who support them who could not compete in the composite market. Just my opinion.
July 6, 2004
Sam Lee
Men's 60
31 posts
Walk-I really enjoy your comments.

Sam Lee
July 7, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Once again I am sorry my post was so long.

Mike you are very kind with the top ten placement. But your point about home run hitters hitting line drives is one I was trying to make. I am working on hitting line drives up the middle and hard through the infield. Not because I want to but because there is a chance we are going back to the ISSA and I will not have another tournament like the last one.

If the associations want to use these balls and want to cut down on the home runs then so be it. We will all become base hitters and as you said it will not be pretty.

Sam you are right about the associations not listening to the players. The SSUSA is keeping the U2 until 2006 but no one else is. The LVSSA was trying but the ASA umpires that work their games refuse to work the games if the U2 is allowed. Seems to me the brain washing of the ASA has worked. I find is amazing how everyone but the players influence the decision making of the associations.
Walk

July 7, 2004
sjuhoops
123 posts
good morning walk this is hank from vegas. loved your post. i totally agree. if so many players like the ull we should be able to use it. unfortunately here in vegas our club gave in to the nsa director and we will be using nsa approved bats only. any suggestions on how we can get our point across to the td's that this is what we the majority of the major and major plus players that we play with and against) want. if we all could use the ull then i dont care what altered bat anyone uses. the ball is the other issue. i have read all the posts and mike kelly and sam lee are right on. td's if you are listening and you care about the players help us enjoy our senior years of softball. walk ill see you in plano. hope something can be done
thanks for listening
hank
July 7, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Hey Hank how are you doing? I went all the way to Eddie C last year of the NSA and got nothing. Now the NSA is suppose to be the players association but it is not. They say it is the insurance company that is behind this and to a point they are right. I am helping a new softball association get started and the problem is the insurance company but with that said there is another choice.

Terry has an insurance company that seems to allow the bat and so it seems to me we need to get all the senior associations to come under that umbrella. Also we need to get umpires that are not associated with the NSA , USSA or ASA. Believe me it can be done. All you have to do is pay more than the other associations and they will come over in mass amounts.

Another thing that I think could work and that is for us senior players to make sure we let every association hear our voices this year at worlds. I don't about you guys but I am tired of carrying a bat for each association. Before long it will be like the softballs and we will have different colored bats for each association i.e. a blue bat for ASA, a red bat for USSSA,, a black bat for NSA, and a green one for ISA and that is not counting the other senior associations.

See you in Plano Hank.
Walk
July 7, 2004
crusher
Men's 70
388 posts
Hey Walk,
I hope you are successful in getting the new SB Assocation going. We need some stability. If the rules ar set up the way you and others seem to feel, we could have something good for senior ball. I would guess 50% of senior teams would join an assocation that has what the players want.
Keep after it.
July 7, 2004
Walk
192 posts
Thanks Crusher we are trying. They are testing this association in CA this year. We hope to expand and add seniors next year.

Now don't get me wrong I think the SSUSA is doing a great job as is the LVSSA but the rest need to rid themselves of the big four and listen to the players. Ridge really does try to do that but once again he is tied to the NSA and they of course limit what he can and can't do.

What the big four do not understand and never will is that we are senior players and our needs are different. They make us play under the younger umbrella and that does not work.
Walk
July 7, 2004
sjuhoops
123 posts
hey walk thanks for getting back to me. one bat for each organization is a bit much. i hope you can get your organization off the ground. i know our team would love to play with the miken. we will play in all of terry's tourneys that are available. hoping to get our club to train their own umpires so we can again use the ultra. maybe some sort of petition at all the worlds this year. as you said if its an insurance problem terrys ins. co has solved that problem and maybe the other organizations can look into terry's company as to their coverage etc. just hate to see the miken go away.hate seeing you or any other big guy hitting the ball up the middle. with that many peoploe changing their swing to go up the middle i can see pitches injuries jumping tremendously. please keep us posted about your organization.
thanks
hank
July 8, 2004
Sam Lee
Men's 60
31 posts
Walk--Keep after it.

Players want a good bat, to wit: Miken Ultra 1 or 2 or equivalent. I personally see no difference b/t them except the balance. Some may disagree. But that is my experience.

Players want a good ball on a hot day and I define hot as above 80 degrees.

If Terry has the guts to hang in then SSUSA will end up with most of the participation.

But it appears to me that Terry is caving in-for whatever reason.

In the long run, it appears that none of the current associations are willing to be guided by the demands of the players. Why, because we gripe but we send our money and keep playing.

A boycott of a major tourney would get the message across.

July 12, 2004
barko34
19 posts
Hank
Good to see you out here.
As far as RB saying the good balls were coming "later", we (Statesmen) beat Bell Corp/ Dans 7-6 in the ISF finals. Afterwards, Davide and I were talking and we counted a TOTAL of 12 homeruns in the 50 and 55 Major + in Manassas. Thermco, who won the 50's played 5 games averaging about 26 runs a game and hit a total of one, by Richter. The Statesmen, who were averaging about 5 a game, hit a total of 7 in the five games. We (Sam, John and I) confronted RB after the tourny to complain about the balls and his reply was that they had ordered 240 DOZEN of them and that's what they will be using. John was so po'd that he stormed into the parking lot and told me he was never going back to Mannasas again. In talking it over with the team, we've decided that we're not going back for the ISSA.
I agree totally with Bruce when he says that something has to be done, and I think it's we the players and teams that have to send a message to the TD's. If we have to start our own associations with our own standards, then so be it!
Give my regards to Sue and hopefully, I'll see you in Plano.

Barko
July 12, 2004
sjuhoops
123 posts
hey bark
nice to hear from you. how aare things. heard all about the balls in manassas from many sources. its a disgrace what happening. it would be great to start an organization for the players by the players. we played in palm springs 10 games using a freak and onlhy hit three home runs. most of the balls are dead after the first inning. the spa in plano,the two vegas tourneys are supposed to use 47 525's. ill be with you guys in plano. sam had told me they were upset with rb. he knows a year ahead of time when his tourney is. same weekend for how many years now. just dont get why the bats and the balls are being knocked down. even with the ultra's there werent that many hr's. you still have time limits and sometimes run limits per inning. i guess we could rantand rave about this till ????. have a great day and ill see you in plano if not in albany. are yuou going upstate
take care
hank
July 12, 2004
sjuhoops
123 posts
hey bark
sorry i meant syracuse
hank
July 13, 2004
barko34
19 posts
Hank
I think Mike Kelly hit the nail on the head with a previous answer. Let the lower classifications hit a lower compression ball and let the Majors and Major +'s hit a 525. At least you have some justification, then, for raising the classifications for the teams that should be raised. I must admit though, that being the traditionalist that I am, I miss the days of the 38 oz.Howards bats and the RF 80 balls. With those conditions, you knew the only guys that were hitting the homers were the guys who were supposed to. I guess I'm still trying to justify our Delaware tournament where Eddie Finigan hit 5 homers.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear you'll be coming to Syracuse with us. I'll definitely be there. Also Plano, if they don't screw around with the balls there. BTW, they brought in the same crap ball in Smithtown that they used in Manassas. We've got ONE homerun as a team, in 12 games. Yeah, it's been a real fun summer.
Steve
July 13, 2004
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
If Fisher-Price made a dangerous toy, would there be a recall and an attempt to buy back the toys? Would they continue to sell more? If General Motors had a dangerous part on one of their cars what would happen? The ASA, NSA, Easton, TPS, Wilson etc have tried hard to say that the Miken bats (also a few of their own models) are dangerous. They are selling that in everything they put out there. Can we still buy an Ultra II with the ASA stamp on it today? Something just doesn"t ring true. If the bat is dangerous I want the ASA to refund my money. If the bat isn't danderous I want to use it. Sounds to me like the ass'ns are having their cake and eating it too. Most injuries occurring from contact with the ball are from thrown balls. Lets pass rules against throwing that lethal object at players that way insurance companies can avoid underwriting injuries from the ball entirely. If the so called experts are ranting about the Miken bats being dangerous I can cetainly understand why an insurance co. wouldn't want to be on the hook. March in 10 ASA executives to testify that the bat is dangerous and the jury would probably believe them. But wait, Its the ASA saying its dangerous and there is the ASA stamp on the bat. I guess they want the royalty pretty darn bad.
July 14, 2004
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
Barko-I spoke with John yesterday afternoon and we both agree about what happened and what apparently will be happening in the ISSA. As RB said, they bought 240 DOZEN of those socks, so I'm sure they will be used in August as well. As I told John, in the USSSA last year in Blaine, MN we used Dudley Heat balls that were as bad BUT the USSSA has, apparently, learned the error of their ways, and, I am told, we will be using 525 compression balls in Panama City.
Anyway, congratulations to the Statesmen on a great win and hope to see you guys in Cullman!
LL
July 26, 2004
bohack
13 posts
what we all should do is stop going to asa sponserd tonuments and show them are disaprovel of the way the run things
July 26, 2004
bohack
13 posts
and by the way steve eddie can hit it out at anytime he just don't want to show up john and pete
July 27, 2004
DoubleL10
Men's 65
809 posts
The Houston Texans have decided not to return to defend our championships in the ISSA in Manassas and the ASA in Oregon. I don't expect it will make much difference to the associations, but puff ball softball is not our idea of something worth pouring our time and money into.
LL
July 27, 2004
bohack
13 posts
your wrong the statesmen are not going to R.B. TOURAMENTS untill he untill he gets rid of those 250 doz. balls he purchased so he says.then he says that it was a mistake by the ball company .I no better he screwed up
July 28, 2004
T.Burk
48 posts
Interesting thoughts on the bat/ball crisis. Might it not be time for a player's summit? If the associations continu to get closer together, the palyers will lose even moer ground. If that happens we will be back to wooden bats and cork center balls. Every time I ask the question about why, the answer always seems to come back insurence and fear of law suits. The fact is that most of the trouble and anxiety over injuries isn't senior related as much as it is under 40 softball, and that is a result of having homeruns be outs instead of asingle or a double. They also say that homeruns when not limited causes delays. If young ball and run limits per inning or homerun limits per inning, they could speed up play, keep the ball out of the middle, and have less impact on senior ball. Just a thought
Feb. 25, 2005
biggeorge
Men's 60
25 posts
How about if we hit the balls the other brings and he hits the ones we bring. Sounds like the solution. It worked in the seventies when you brought your own because the Dudley's got soft rather quickly. So evereyone hit their own so long as they were approved restricted flight balls. Same can surely work in the other direction. Now we don't have to worry so much about bats.
Feb. 26, 2005
Lefty
Men's 65
463 posts
Well if they want to use 375 44 core balls then
why don't they lower the stiches of the ball to get more distance.
March 2, 2005
biggeorge
Men's 60
25 posts
00 degrees with 98% humidity, not withstanding a water soaked ball. Conversly, cold, dry air is the most dense air and therefore affords much less travel distance for the ball. All the loss of compression is neglient because a rise in temperature negates any loss of distance. On top of all that, good hitters can hit a rolled up sock out with a branch.
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