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Discussion: What would you change in Senior Softball?

Posted Discussion
Jan. 6, 2008
Sisavic
138 posts
What would you change in Senior Softball?
Here's your chance to influence the game we all love!

I'm the NW Player Rep to the Senior Softball Summit meeting (January 12th) and would like to know what you'd change in Senior Softball.

The Summit is an annual meeting of all Senior Softball Associations originally organized to make rules and policies consistent across the various Associations. Although not 100% consistent, there has been a lot of progess including acceptance of the Ultra II, common pitch height, snow-bird policies, etc.

I read these postings and know none of you are shy about expressing your opinions, so please send me your recommendatins/suggestions and I'll present them at the next Summit.

If you'd rather contact me directly versus these postings, send me an email at fsisavic@hotmail.com

Thanks.

Mike Sisavic
Fastsigns or Oregon 65+
Jan. 6, 2008
Enviro-Vac
Men's 60
394 posts
The senior game is GTG as is.

Perhaps let Major+ players play with whomever and wherever...no restrictions. Not good to prohibit players from playing just cause' their great!
Jan. 6, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
Mike are there 2 meetings? The website shows 19th and 20th.
Jan. 6, 2008
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
Hey Mike, I love to play Senior softball--much more so than playing with the young whipper-snappers. My team is in the Birmingham, Al. area and we play SPA primarily.

I know I am probably in the minority, but I do not really care for the strike mat. For me, it limits the kind of breaking pitches thrown. Also, it takes the umpire out of the game. Calling balls and strikes is an integral aspect of the game, getting use to how he calls, etc.

Also, is the summit going to address the issue of intentional hitting at pitchers?.
Jan. 6, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
All assnís keep their tournament scorebooks, use them and develop a centralized database but for all assnís to use. Incorporate the teams, players and pickups, names and their playing stats, for everyone. If you feel this would be too hard to get them together, at least have each assn keep their own but have it open for viewing on their web site. If they do not have a site, make them available via fax.
This way, some concerns about a player playing where itís felt he should not be can be put to rest.

Have the rulebook available on web sites for viewing and also available at tournaments for purchasing.

I do not like the restriction of signing on for a team and leaving it up to the manager for releasing you, should there come a time to move on. A written letter from that player to the assn should suffice for his release.
That being said, I also feel thought to possible 3 teams in a year, max. Since most have to sign a roster in their first tournament, whatís to keep that team\mgr from not releasing you after that one, if it doesnít work out?
Jan. 6, 2008
allworld
Men's 50
19 posts
i think the general concept of senior softball is in good standing for the most part. Are there things that could change, yes, but you have to ask yourself how much impact,will that change make. As a whole i think the game is fair and being run as smooth as can be expected. I know I wouldn't want to be in Terrys' shoes for anything. I believe he trys to be fair to every team and player that plays the game, but when you have this many adult kids, it;s not always easy. As f ar as i'm concerned leave this game as it is, it seems to be working for the most part. Now if someone come up with an idea that will better the game, so be it, other wise let it stand as it is,
Jan. 6, 2008
stattad
Men's 65
168 posts
For seeding purposes in tournaments, the runs scored in the top of the last inning shouldn't be counted toward the home team's runs allowed if they don't hit in the same inning. In other words:

Visitor 000 000 7 -7
Home 101 114 x -8

Should count as 8-0 for seeding purposes because the home team didn't get to bat in the 7th. This is why so many teams choose to bat first when they win the flip. If they lose the game, they at least get extra runs to keep the margin close.
Jan. 6, 2008
william wallace
42 posts
The regional rules for major plus are bad. SSUSA should at least follow SPA on this.
Jan. 6, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What would I change in Senior Softball?
Hmmmmm.
Where would I begin?
Platooning for sure (unlimited defensive substitution).
Widen the mat.
1-1 count.
Consistently good balls.
No time restriction national tournament games in major plus
once doulble elimination begins (just like SPA)
Unlimiited home runs in Major plus.
No 5 run innings in Major plus.
Jan. 6, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
Mike, eliminate the AA division and divide the teams between AAA, Major and Major Plus.
Jan. 6, 2008
Oly
2 posts
I would add a 45+ Division. I feel like there is a big difference from your early 40s to your late 40s. Also, don't let anyone under 50 use the Senior bats. Most of these guys are still playing regular men's ball and hit the ball to hard with a good chance of hurting someone. I agree about expanding the mat especially with the corners and the deeper strike not being called. It is a great association.
Jan. 6, 2008
DCPete
234 posts
Using the 1 - 1 count is the single biggest improvement that could be made to the game in terms of speeding up the overall pace of the game, enabling more games to complete the full 7 innings within the time limits and giving the pitchers a little more opportunity to make the hitters swing at borderline pitches. There's NO good reason why 1 - 1 can't at least be used in pool play!!!!!
Jan. 6, 2008
Oly
2 posts
I would add a 45+ Division. I feel like there is a big difference from your early 40s to your late 40s. Also, don't let anyone under 50 use the Senior bats. Most of these guys are still playing regular men's ball and hit the ball to hard with a good chance of hurting someone. I agree about expanding the mat especially with the corners and the deeper strike not being called. It is a great association.
Jan. 6, 2008
umby44
48 posts
you eliminate aa division you lose a lot of players
Jan. 6, 2008
umby44
48 posts
1AND1 COUNT WOULD BE GREAT
Jan. 6, 2008
Sisavic
138 posts
Lecak,

My bad. The Summit meeting is Jan 19-20. Sorry about that.

Thanks.

Mike
Jan. 6, 2008
Bob50
Men's 60
240 posts
If I could suggest one change it would be to go to a 1 - 1 count to speed up the game. Don't give me the garbage about running in and out to save time.

Second, eliminate geographic restrictions for major plus.

As for the rest. Don't change it if its not broken.

Good timely thread idea Sisavic.
Jan. 6, 2008
Sisavic
138 posts
Southpaw,

How would you recommend the associations handle intentional hitting at pitchers?

How would you know it's intentional?

Some associations have this rule: it's an out if a batted ball hits a pitcher on a fly, intentional or not.

Mike
Jan. 6, 2008
pete88
Men's 50
46 posts
I've been playing senior softball in the AA division for Scrap Iron about a year. Having a ball. I play with a great bunch of guys. I'm a small guy(5'7", 155 lbs.), and have decent power. In AA we're only allowed 1 homerun, then an out. I read a lot of replies that if you want to hit more homeruns, move up. But I prefer to play with this group of guys that I have made a commitment to and have grown attached to. Our team is a decent AA team, but I think we're overmatched for AAA.(I hope my team doesn't mind me saying this). How come that second ball out can't be a single or even a foul ball? After the first one out I don't try to hit it out, just trying to hit it hard somewhere. Do I have any supporters out there? Either way, I'll always be ready to play.
Thanks,
Pete Ayotte
Scrap Iron 50's
Jan. 6, 2008
pete88
Men's 50
46 posts
or maybe one up on the other team, then maybe an out or a single or foul.
Jan. 6, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
1 and 1 count is a no brainer to speed up the game.
Combine Major/Major-plus and AAA/AA. Two divisions.
6 to 10 foot arc (USSSA height).
Expand the pitching mat 6" wider.
Rings are precious, everyone shouldn't have one.
Make a team win a national or two before getting bumped.
Jan. 7, 2008
T-REX
64 posts
Hmmmm...finally a forum that gets to the point! For Nationals,a more centralized location,being from the east coast,the cost and travel time is a problem.Stay with the mat,theres no doubt when a strike is a strike the umps have enough to do determining height etc. Change the age limits,for example what determines when a player begins to degress? Some 50 yr old players are better suited to play in the next age limit such as 50-57,instead of 55,especially on the less competitive classifications.Bats,I won't go there,nothing will ever change,it never has,some cheat most don't,I do believe its as much the management as it is the players.Get all associatons on the same page,work together toward uniying the game for the overall benefit of the sport.I played major for 6 years and made alot of friends throughout the country,but no longer play due to the politics of the game,yet will always be a fan...
Jan. 7, 2008
boston
299 posts
I would definitely go to a 1-1 count. Most batters are taking a strike anyway. I agree w/ Pete from Scrap Iron on the home run rule. I go to 50AA tourneys and get pissed when I hit a 350 ft shot and have to sit down because I'm out. I'm 5'11" and 175 lbs w/ great speed, but have been known to hit those type of shots. I play w/ a great bunch of guys AA. I've been told I should play AAA but enjoy the group I play with.
When I talk to AAA guys in my area they are always complaining about how few 50AAA teams there are at tourneys. In our league we play 1 up w/ everything being a single if the other team doesn't hit one.
Maybe after seeding games in a tournament AA teams that are hitting too many balls out should be moved to AAA for the double elimination. I know I have played teams like OTD and Just-For-Fun that have several players that launch the ball. Maybe, there in the same situation as some of us the team in general isn't good enough to move up but you enjoy playing w/ your friends. I don't know what the solution is but it would be nice if some recommendations could be made.
Jan. 7, 2008
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
Hey Sisavic, I do not have an answer to your question. Thought I would leave it to more learned people than me!

However, I have been conducting leagues and tournaments locally for 20 years, and it seems to me that more often than not, there is a difference between hitting up the middle and hitting at the pitcher. Attitude and arrogance are often easily observed in some batters. My experience is that with batters who know how to control the bat and direction of their hits, if a ball is directed between chest and ankles, dead on the pitcher, it seems obvious.

What I hear most often, especially if it is the young guys, is "he will not give me my pitch" or "guys, we are losing, we need to do something about it."

At the least, managers and umpires should stay in control of the game and the players; encouraging words and/or warnings should be abundantly available.
Jan. 7, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Keep the mat the way it is,
Keep the count start at 0-0
Enforce the batters box rule.
Use the one up rule for HR's. any more it's an out or walk.
Jan. 7, 2008
curty
Men's 60
103 posts
i agree with the 1-1 count and make the mat triangular -from the corner's of the plate go out to 1" wider per side - to help the curve etc. We tried doing 2 innings at a time, but it was not well accepted. The divisions are working as is , just look at the scores- usually pretty close! Perhaps upping the per inning runs to 7 for M & M+. Maybe a home run change, i.e. AAA 1 & 1up, after 4 Total per team they become outs, AA= 1, single, outs. We've seen more teams at the lower levels, and have added a " rec " division to our tourney's with only a 2 game guarantee, saturday only, for local league teams.Would like to see less courtesy runners allowed per inning, say a limit of 2 or 3. My thoughts.
Jan. 7, 2008
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
I do love to play Senior Softball, especially since my team does not win alot! Hopefully, that will change this year.

Anyway, on other subjects. USSSA is played a lot in Birmingham--I do think the 1 and 1 count is productive.

I also believe that every team has a homerun hitter or two, regardless of classification. I believe that even AA and AAA should be allowed at least 3 to 4 homeruns, then outs. In my open leagues, we have a wide array of teams, from church to C class. Allowing an equal number of homeruns seems to be a good compromise and makes it inclusive for the largest number of people.
Jan. 7, 2008
Dale
Men's 50
76 posts
Hey Southpaw,

Do you know if the Birmingham 55s (AA) are going to the Tournament of Champions next month??
Jan. 7, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
leave the hr rule as it is,except for m+ ,they should be unlimited.
make the mat a little bigger for ssusa(make it the same size as SPA's mat at least).
1-1 count ok

also last thing make einstien do something bout his hair :):):):)
Jan. 7, 2008
Hotcorner
Men's 65
20 posts
Hi all: A few sugestions: 1] Start with a 1-1 count; 2] Increase the mat size 2-3"; 3] eleminate the low illegal pitch in major & major+[ if the pitch hits the mat/plate, it's a strike. 4] 7 runs per inning; 5] a standard core/compression/size softball; 6] flexible regional rule to accommodate players that have nowhere to play within their regio Wlecome your comments. Bobby K
Jan. 7, 2008
jolly52
Men's 55
49 posts
1 & 1 count not in favor of it... I like to see a pitch or 2 to set my timming down, If they expand the strike zone advantage pitcher with the 1 & 1 count, expand the strike zone but leave the count at 0 & 0.
Boston, 50 AAA has always had the most turnout and been the most competitive division with almost any team capable of winning the tourny, your area is short on 50AAA teams?
Overall Senior Softball is working well except the player issues with Major +, let them play and drop the constictions about playing were they want.
I like playing Senior Ball got tired with playing with the younger guys with the ego's and the bad sportsmenship, don't tinker to much or it might just get broke! jmo
Jan. 7, 2008
doker
Men's 60
168 posts
YES I AGREE!!! THE SPA MAT IS BETTER AS IT GIVES THE PITCHER A CORNER OR TWO...A GAME CAN BE EXTENDED IF A PITCHER CAN'T GET THE BALL OVER AND ON A WINDY DAY ESPECIALLY!!! I THINK THE 1 AND 1 WUD HELP MOVE THE GAMES BECAUSE WE ARE AT THE UMPIRES MERCY AND HE CAN END THE GAME TOO SOON AS TIME GETS CLOSE. IT HAPPENED SEVERAL TIMES IN THE NATLS....I REALLY LIKE THE 5RUN RULE THOUGH..AS IT GIVES LESS TALENTED TEAMS A BETTER CHANCE AGAINST THE SANDBAGGERS OF THE WORLD..ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'VE WON A BIG TOURNEY AND HAVE TO MOVE UP TO THE NEXT DIVISION EVEN THOUGH YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN..NOONE LIKES TO GET POUNDED ALL THE TIME!!!!!
Jan. 7, 2008
doker
Men's 60
168 posts
STAYING COMPETITIVE AS WE GET OLDER HELPS KEEP SOME OF US GOING.....THAT'S WHAT MAKES SENIOR BALL THE BEST....BUT I AGREE LETS NOT GET TOO CARRIED AWAY WITH TOO MANY RULES..THE GAME IS GOOD AND ALOT OF FUN THE WAY IT IS NOW!!!!!
Jan. 7, 2008
Cliff 21
Men's 55
13 posts
The 1 & 1 count is the single biggest change that HAS to be made in our game. 3 to 4 inning games being ended by the time limit is absurd. My team (Travelodge)) played a total of 20 innings in the 5 games at Phoenix. The 1 & 1 is needed not just in pool play, but ESPECIALLY in elimination games.
Given the overwhelming advantage to the batter in senior SLOW pitch softball (can you say ULTRA's COMBATS, etc)
the 1 & 1 count would not only get more innings in, it would give the pitcher's chances a needed boost. Then instead of the frequent 6 or 7 pitch at-bat, a batter, after automatically "taking" a 1st strike like the majority of hitters do, might have to show some hitting ability & fight off a tough 2-strike pitcher's pitch just to get on base. The 1 & 1 could also result in team defense becoming a bit more of a factor as theoretically a few more balls stay in the park.
So there are several good reasons for going to the 1 & 1 but none more important than simply getting in full 7-inning games....not having to experience the rotten feeling that comes with losing a 3-or 4 inning game in which you know your team has the ability to come back & possibly win.Or for that matter the unrewarding feeling that might come after winning such a game.
We can't have unlimited runs per inning with a time limit, or even going to the 1 & 1 will not acheive 7-inning games.
We need to go to the 1 & 1, Mike, or guys (teams) will question whether 20 innings is worth it. ($$.)


Cliff Noble
(a non-pitcher)
Jan. 7, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Extend game time by 10 minutes. Would give another inning or two.
Games to start 5 minutes after previous one unless the first game of the day. No lollygagging in and out of the dugouts. Teams need to be ready to go.

doker: I played where the rules call for time delays in windy situations, Played in two tourneys where the wind was bad enough to call it, but never was even though teams were complaining.......If the pitcher can't hit the mat (as they are) in normal playing conditions, play catcher or DH.

It would be nice to have a standardized mat size they all used whatever it ends up being.
Jan. 7, 2008
southpaw
Men's 60
733 posts
Hey Dale, I do not know whether the Bham 55's will be playing in Feb.
Hopefully, they will participate in my practice tourney for Seniors on March 1 at Green Springs ( 2 weeks before Montgomery).
Is this Dale in Birmingham?
Jan. 7, 2008
Sisavic
138 posts
Taits - Good idea about using scorebooks, but which Associations use scorebooks?

SS USA has talked about using them in Nationals, but never has used them (as far as I know).

St George uses them, but the scorekeepers use them only to be sure the score is correct - no individual stats except runs scored.
Jan. 7, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1007 posts
Here is an idea how about having the 50 and 55 divisions when possible scheduled on separate weekends. I saw this in the LVSSA and especially in the major/major plus could increase the number of teams. Somebody from the Florida major plus team Hollis help me, your team was in both the 50 and 55 do you have 55 players on your 50 if so would you have had to make a choice if they were on the same weekend. Also I believe the Kelly 50 and 55 teams had crossover players. Out of probably 12-14 teams that would have been 2 less teams at least if they were on the same weekend. There are least 3-5 threads on here with 50 teams moving up to 55 and trying to create 2 teams if they were on separate weekends these teams could have their cake and eat it too. Also more money for the people running the tournies.
Jan. 7, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
Lecak, I played with Specialty Tank and All State Mike in Vegas in 2006. Having the 50 and 55 tournaments on different weekends made this possible. In 2007 I believe there were 4 or 5 of our 55 players that played in the 50 tournament the week before.
1-1 doesn't matter but I would think it would be better to do what Taits suggested, extend game times by 10 minutes. Have teams and umpires ready to play soon after the preceding game completes.
Jan. 7, 2008
the wood
1079 posts
Cliff:
It isn't totally fair to suggest that the 1-1 count would have radically improved the situation in Phoenix. We had the same '20 innings in 5 games' and didn't like it any better than you. But this was more a result of the time limits than the count.
To me, a 65 or 70 minute time limit in DE makes little sense. When you also remove the 'finish this inning plus one more' element it is not surprising that we average only 5 innings/game. There were no 'max run/inning' rules, which is fine. But, again, the two things work against each other (short time limit and open innings).
Five inning games were fair to both teams but it made for minimal tolerance for mistakes (offensive or defensive).
In SPA, we played w/o time limits (or max run/inning rules) and used 2 hour game slots... it ran over some but there were few complaints. This was true in SSWS as well. Since they used ASA equipment, less runs were scored... for the most part.
BW
Jan. 7, 2008
jolly52
Men's 55
49 posts
How much faster is it having a 1&1 pitch count or a 0&0 count...Ihave played with both and never thought it will speed up the game, to many other factors come into play, Have the teams ready to play, umpires should control this along with the team managers! It seems to me I play for the pure enjoyment of playing and I don't want this to turn into another thing that is condensed and pressured to be hurried thru instead of being enjoyed and played hard. Extend the time of a game by 10 minutes. How many tourny's do we wait for our field to finish when some fields stand empty?? TD's, have flexibility to move fields to save time..softball is made to play hard and enjoy!!
Jan. 7, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4365 posts
Jolly 52 roughly 1.5 minutes an inning.


I liked the two hour game time. Longest game I've ever played in was 1 hr 45 min. That was a u-trip game too with 7 innings.
With no run rulle. Go for 1 hr 20 min if you want a time limit. and the 7 run per inning is descent as well.
Jan. 7, 2008
Gary Heifner
248 posts
I would vote for the 1-1 count. I kept track over several seasons and you get about an additional 11 minutes per game which translates to at least one more inning. I would also like to see a 6 to 10 foot arc. Most umps could judge a 10 footer pretty well. There isn't an ump in the known free world who knows what a 12 foot arc is. Also, under the current rules a player who stays in great shape, works out and exceeds at a very high level gets pushed up to major plus is screwed. There should be NO boundries on major plus players. They deseve a right to play.
Jan. 7, 2008
grumpy55
Men's 60
102 posts
There are alot of good things in this post but the one thing I would like to see changed is the courtesy runner rule. It is abused by alot of teams. If a runner is needed he should come in right away or not at all. If a runner can go first to third there is no reason he should be replaced after a batter or two unless injured running. Want to help speed up game this is one way I would think would help.
Jan. 7, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
If more innings is the desired goal, the 1-1 count or the 0-0 count makes little if any difference. Speeding up the game and therefore getting more innings is a simple partnership between the umpires and the managers. 1. be on time and ready to play, early if the field is open. 2. hustle on and off the field. 3. limit or eliminate between innings infield and pitching warmups. and 4. have CR's ready to go ahead of time.

These 4 simple things, which have been posted here too may times already, are far more helpful in speeding up the game than depriving the batter of one or two pitches to choose from.
Jan. 8, 2008
Hotcorner
Men's 65
20 posts
Hi All: There is rarely a good reason for games to end in less that 7 innings.However. 3 basic things need to happen 1] player hustle 2] team organization re: CR etc 3] umpire controll. Regarding the 1-1 count and increasing the mat size, both will quicken the pace of the game and also save considerable down time. Will also help balance offence/defence. Your thoughts!
Jan. 8, 2008
Joncon
289 posts
1 and 1 count please!!!

It's not about the length of the game, it's about the PACE.

I'm not gettin any younger standing there waiting for you to hit the ball. LET'S GO!!
Jan. 8, 2008
Dillon1
12 posts
Please, give us the 1&1 count. At least experiment with it in 2008.
Jan. 8, 2008
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2650 posts
Joncon, Patience Grasshopper :)
I am a traditionalist when it comes to most softball rules. I can see why we need a second first base and a secnd home plate. I also like using the latest and greatest bat. I don't think the flow of the game needs to be changed. To speed up the game, would you play with only 2 outs per half inning? Not me. Keep the 0-0 count.
Jan. 8, 2008
Jawood
Men's 50
794 posts
Joncon makes a good point by stating that the pace of the game will improve if a 1 and 1 count is used. Maybe the length of a game is the same regardless the count, but would you rather have the ball in play all the time, or be standing around waiting until batters look at a couple of pitches? Get in the box and hit!
Jan. 9, 2008
AlleninGa
Men's 60
113 posts
Relax,enjoy the moment. Good defense is important (as it is in any sport), but let's face it, softball is about HITTING. IMO, the 1-1 count favors defense and is a distraction to the batter. 0-0 count...........KEEP IT.
Jan. 9, 2008
surf88
Men's 60
873 posts
Would like to see a regulation change allowing players who live in remote locations (ie: 7-8 hours away from closest city or team location) to be able to play on multiple rosters. reason for said change, gives the player the ability to play more ball if he/she is on the roster of a team that plays limited number of tournaments.

I believe a player with such a handicap should be given the flexibility to be able to play more ball. Players based in the cities, etc. have the ability to play on multiple leagues and play tournaments. Players based in small remote areas may not have the ability to play on leagues, etc. and drive time to get to activity is clearly a hardship (not an impossibility, but a hardship nonetheless).

Add to this the location of the player and the weather he/she lives in can be another factor. A player based in a mountainous region, for example, faces a serious limitation in the availability of playing time due to winter weather.

Thanks for taking a serious look at this topic. It does not apply to many players but it certainly does apply to a small group of us that love to play the game and spend a great deal of time and money trying to get to/from sponsored tournaments.
Jan. 9, 2008
hoover13
Men's 65
8 posts
I've always watched the first pitch, and therefore I absolutely hate the 1-1 count, but I do have to admit it defitely speeds the game up, so maybe it's time for me to change my approach to hitting?
Also, as a pitcher on windy days, it would make a lot of sense to have some extra inches on the width of the mat. I'm a 65+ pitcher, and in my many years of pitching have probably never walked more than 3 players in an entire season, but last year in a tournament, on a very windy day walked a total of 7 batters in one game. Does that slow down the game or what? Widen the mat!!!
As for hitting up the middle, and remember I'm a pitcher, I love it when teams try me, and why shouldn't they, I go up the middle myself. Just allow the pitcher to move back further, so he has time to defend himself.
Jan. 9, 2008
JohnBob
Men's 60
247 posts
Sisavic, I think all association should go to the wider matt like SPA. This alone will speed up the game. I am against the 1-1 count.
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