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Discussion: Somebody needs to say it!

Posted Discussion
Feb. 2, 2009
audieh
Men's 60
241 posts
Somebody needs to say it!
Somebody needs to say it!

First off, my brother Curt and I would like to thank SS-USA for this message board which allows the players at least an opportunity to be heard. We think that says a lot for SS-USA and their intentions and we really appreciate this organization. There has been a lot of discussion regarding the recent rule changes. However, since we are only 56 and 52 years old and relative :pups; in senior softball, we know we are deficient regarding the historical aspects of senior softball. However, we want to express our opinions on a number of items.

1) Few major plus players comment on things that affect AA, AAA, or Major players. Most posts by major plus players are about rules/regulations affecting their game. However, there appears to be many posts and negative comments by players that are not playing on the major plus level about major plus issues. Why? Why do you care so much about major plus when you do not play on that level? Let the major plus players and the owners of the associations figure out what they want. We do not desire or need your input. So please quit your whining!

2) Apparently there has been a recent decline in Major Plus teams after several years of increased teams. New rules were recently adopted, to in theory, increase the teams in the major plus division through reducing the strengths of major plus teams, thus allowing more major teams to move up into this division. Unfortunately, many strong major teams would rather stay down and beat up on lesser major teams then attempt to compete with the big boys. What are you guys afraid of, a little competition? The answer is yes. Sure, you have your excuses. :We just want to play with our buddies,; or :why should we be forced up.; You don・t seem to mind changing team names and a few roster spots to stay down in major and whip up on lesser teams. Why don・t you grow some gonads and move up. Any major team that wins a major tournament such as SSUSA Worlds, or SPA, or Vegas when you have more than 8 teams in your bracket should be automatically moved up for the following year. If you can・t compete after a year it will be obvious and the rating committee will send you packing. But, hey, at least you tried. Damn girlie men! Those Hall of Fame points you are earning should be Hall of Shame points!

3) Now listen, we really understand that not everyone was made or has practiced enough to play on the major plus level. However, there is a level of softball available for anyone that wants to play. We personally understand that on the top level there will be limited competition as a simple bell curve would demonstrate. Just like at the lowest level there are just a few truly, terrible teams. But that is the way it is in life so get over it and quit the complaining.

On the flip side, to you big bad major plus players, you・ve developed your teams to play at the top level and have recruited almost all of the top homerun hitters, so bear in mind that there will be little competition in your area. Sure, each region of the country should be able to field one and maybe two teams, but that is it. Get over it. Sure, you have to play the same teams in the nationals. Why? Because you want to play the best and you have the drive for competition and the ego to match. Be thankful there are other similar minded seniors in every region of the country. That is what playing at the top level is about. Our senior rules allow territories to keep the dominant open :Dan Smith type teams; from taking over and ensure a relatively level playing field. However, don・t expect that there are going to be 8 strong major plus teams coming out of Florida, or Texas, or California, or Michigan. There are just not enough players on that level. You say you want to play the best so shut the heck up and play!

4) Right or wrong we believe that the :Major Plus; division was originally created to keep the one or two "Super" teams, such as the Dan Smith team, away from the major teams. So it seems to me, this is a major policy shift 180 degrees back in the other direction and there will be numerous blowouts. So, how do you prevent that? Simple, you dumb down, yes I said dumb down, the rules and thus throw true competition out the window. With the limited homeruns and limited runs per inning it now becomes not a game of who is the best, but a game of chance which boils down in many cases to who has the best open inning. Why even play the other innings? Let・s just play one open inning and leave it at that. It would be quicker games, you could pay umpires less, things would run on time, etc, etc. These rules make a farce out of true softball and determining who is best. But, you・re continued complaining in major plus has resulted in this plight.

5) We suggest that the highest level of senior softball that should be highly regulated by the senior associations is the Major Division. Maybe regulated is not the right word, but in other words, the highest level a team could be forced to move up would be to the Major division unless that team has won a number of tournaments or shows true dominance. Then, that team of egos (now don・t get mad at us but if you are continually beating weaker teams and you chose to stay there then it is all about your ego and not competition) would be moved up no matter how much they complain. We suggest having a Major Plus Division that is basically voluntary as it has been in the past. Granted there would be fewer teams in the major plus division. This voluntary division should be almost unrestricted in rules and play under the old :open; type rules that softball used to be played under when :we grew up in; the 1970s. That was before the current politically correct crowd took over and has shielded us from competition, or should we say reality!

6) We think that the recent rules proposed by the task force for major plus would work if given the chance and we shouldn・t assume that the reduction in major plus teams is due to limited competition, but to economic difficulties, etc. Also, major plus teams have to understand that there is little competition, so if you chose to attend a minor national tournament, there will be few teams. However, have enough guts to show up at the big tournaments like the SPA, Vegas, Phoenix Worlds, SSUSA Spring, and Winter nationals and show us what you have. Keeping a voluntary major plus division would move some of the most talented players out of the major division and would help create a level playing field for teams that would be moved up to the new :Major Division;. Where do you think most major plus players come from? Two sources, the first is name players who are just coming eligible that are snapped up immediately, and secondly, from scouting major teams and word of mouth from AA and AAA players and coaches. Granted, some players of great talent prefer to play with their buddies at a lower level. There is nothing wrong with that. But, play under the rules which have been dumbed down to lessen competition and be happy. We suggest further limits on home runs in these divisions which should, in effect, force the better home run hitters to move into the major plus division. No homeruns for AA, one for AAA and two for Major. That should drive the big hitters to the major plus division. That is our only input to the lower divisions and we will say no further on this as we do not play in those divisions.

The teams that volunteered to play in major plus would be off the associations back because they would return to the old major plus rules or the rules suggested by the task force.

7)Whether you・re playing in your local league or tournament ball, one thing is common, the most talented teams always only have one or two teams capable of playing with them on a consistent basis. If you put the top 10 major plus teams in the country in one tournament there will be a couple who have no chance and a couple who would be the favorites. The other six would be in the middle and that is the way true competition works. If you don・t like where you finished then go out and recruit better, practice more, get better coachingK but don・t try to change the rules to :make it fair!; It already is fair. Compete or shut up. Don・t whine about wanting to be dropped back to major so you can win a tournament against lesser teams so that :I can make the Hall of Fame!;

8)Further, some of you major plus teams using players from outside your areas should be ashamed of yourselves. Play by the rules or lobby to change them, but quit your cowardly cheating. The same could be said of cheater bats and rolling bats. If you need more help than a senior bat you should drop down a division or two and quit being a girlie man!

9) Regarding the :dead ball out; pitching rule, which is an artificial rule that is not tangible. It is only a feel good solution for those creating the rules and an attempt to limit their liability. This will not keep balls from striking pitchers. A pitching screen, which is tangible, would prevent the pitcher from being hit. By the way, we are not for the pitching screen or the DBO but understand the reasoning and think it would solve a number of problems. We think the extra home plate and extra first base have prevented numerous injuries and certainly, for safety・s sake, a small screen can be tolerated as we have to, in all good common sense concede that good balls, coupled with senior bats and older reflexes, are a disaster waiting to happen.

10) Regarding the over limit home run as an outK. What a joke! Do not take the home run out of the game. SSUSA, you need to quit caving on this and get on board with a vast majority of the players on every level. Suck up your pride and just change the dang thing. When there are restricted home runs, make the over homeruns walks. That is enough of a penalty and will keep shots from going up the middle. I don・t care what the rules are in flat belly ball. We are seniors, and between the players and the associations can make our own rules and play the game the way we want to. Don・t keep telling me what the young guys do. Heck, we sired many of them and quit playing that game just because of the overly restricted rules!

11) Now, let・s make a few comments on using good balls and bats. I think the market has shown that senior bats are here to stay. Taking that as a given, the only option to control the game is the ball. We played in the SPA last year, and during the hot part of the day, the balls we were using were mush. No one seemed to appreciate the bad ball and it forced even the best hitters to shoot for singles, and most seemed to go right up the middle. The major plus teams playing early or late and on fields with the wind blowing out were able to hit OK. However, very strong teams during the heat and in no wind or moderate wind in the face, struggled to hit the long ball. For most of us Neanderthal, egotistical thugs, it took the fun out of the game and created a safety hazard for the pitchers. Therefore, I strongly encourage any and all senior organizations to allow a good ball and bat combination. If not, your tournaments will not be well attended as some of the organizations have found out, and have thankfully amended their bat rules.

12) Also, this new ball that requires us to back spin it to hit out will not be acceptable. We have each played over 30 years without having to chop the ball so why would you want us to change our swings to accommodate this ball? That is not going to happen. We・ll play a different association or coach our 12 grandkids before we do that.

In summary, from a player's prospective, if you are not playing on a level that is being discussed then keep your comments to yourself. We don・t need a 135 pound punching Judy trying to dictate the rules in major plus. On the flip side we don・t need a one dimensional; 300 pound clown dictating what rules should be played in AA or AAA. If you・re playing at the highest level, don't complain about the limited number of teams. Expect to play the same guys over and over again. From the associations prospective, you・ll have a safer league, less griping from the major plus guys because of the new rules, and less griping from the teams that had to move up because now they won・t have to play the strongest teams. If a strong team elects to stay in major, then they have accepted the watered down rules which creates a level playing field for the teams moving into the division. However, after a certain number of wins you need to be moved up and earn your wins. Repeating ourselves, you major teams that win at SPA or SSUSA Worlds or the big tournament in Vegas need to move up. To win you・ve beaten the best in your division and you need to respect the game, your fellow competitors and take the next step up. Mandate a pitching screen for safety and change the over the limit homeruns to a walk. Use a good ball and bat combination, and above all, remain open to the opinions of the people who are your customers. Hey, that・s our opinions and we・re entitled to them!

Ok, squirrels, start chirping!
Feb. 2, 2009
softball4b
Men's 60
732 posts
Amen
Feb. 2, 2009
BMC13
Men's 50
35 posts
I have been playing ast the Major Plus level since starting senior softball and I have to agree with AUdie and Curt on almomst every point made!! We play Major+ for a rerason and if we wanted to play the lower level rules we would be playing in the lower levels!! Homeruns for outs is terrible!! To be penalized for hitting a ball 300+ is terrible! Just let us play the gamewe all love to play without the handcuffs...
Feb. 2, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2634 posts
Wow Audie, I think you've won the award for the longest post since its inception!
I too, agree with most of what you've stated.
The bottom line is we need to find a happy medium to bring more top notch major teams up to the major plus level, but let's not dumb down the major plus to achieve this.
Feb. 2, 2009
Bob50
Men's 60
239 posts
Audie,

You sure spoke your mind. It was good to hear. I agree with almost all of what you wrote.

Bob Schulz
Feb. 2, 2009
hitt2
354 posts
Audie

One great post. I'm not a major player, but I think you hit all areas of concern for senior softball. Your voice on the board is being heard.

Hitts AA/AAA 55
Feb. 2, 2009
F.O.G.
Men's 40
105 posts
I see some points made...some I do not.

Out of curiosity, I counted the 50 Major+ teams...16 listed...3 on the west coast. I immediately know of 2 which are sponsored. If the 50 Major & Major+ divisions are mixed at some point, you will have more competition and regardless of your level, I can't see why you'd be satisfied with the same dance every tourney.

Whether I agree or not, I did appreciate reading your post.
Feb. 2, 2009
jah#4
Men's 55
551 posts
Audie
Well said hope the powers to be will read this post. I will be in Dallas this week with SPA and will share this post with the board. If SSUSA does not come around maybe Ridge will. We have about 12 thing to talk about in Major and Major + divisions and this will help. Will email you when I get back and let you know what is said.
Don Ward
Kittrell softball
Feb. 2, 2009
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2634 posts
I think Ridge will, check out the results of his survey on their website.
Feb. 2, 2009
Player25
Men's 55
51 posts
audieh, read your post with interest. Agree for the most part. To me the problem started with the major + teams complaining about not having enough teams to play at each tourney. The response in an effort to make more teams competitive were the rule changes. It would surprise me if most people would have a problem with the major + division having whatever rules they want/desire. The problem becomes when teams are moved up. As long as it is voluntary to play major +, do as you want. I do disagree that a team should be moved up from major by winning one of the tourneys you listed. Particularly if they are winning by one or two runs, or from the losers bracket. As most players know, anyone can beat anyone on a given day but that does not mean they can compete for the long haul. Now if a team is truly dominate and beating everyone by a considerable difference that is a different story. Many teams do not have the financial ability to compete in tourneys outside their region. Therefore this could lead one to believe they may be a dominate team but they are playing the same teams at each tourney. If they were to play outside their region the results would/could be different.
I personnally believe the bat/ball combination is too lively. I agree the bat is here to stay but I believe something needs to be done with the ball. One, to make it respond the same regardless of the temperature and two, to allow for more defense. I do not believe that a senior player should be able to hit the ball harder and farther then when in their prime. I also do not believe a ball hit within 3 or so feet of an infielder should go for a hit. The combo should be such that a ball needs to be hit in the "hole" not just so hard the fielder can not react. I have always questioned the need to be able to hit a ball 400' or more when the fence is generally 300'. It does not count anymore runs. I do appreciate how hard players work to stay in shape and to hone their talents but height and weight are a great advantage for hitting the ball hard and long. I am not advocating putting restricted rules in major + as long as the team/s for which I play are not required to play major +. It was interesting to read a post awhile back concerning the number of homeruns some of the Gekle players hit in one tourney. If memory serves me (and it may not) one player hit 29 balls out of the park in 31 at bats. This is more homeruns then any of our players hit all year. (6-8 tourneys) I enjoy competition but not standing on the field watching ball after ball go out of the park. I did not enjoy playing with the T4000 ball in my prime and I do not enjoy the combination today. It would seem to me that the "true" (insert the word you want) homerun hitters would want the bat/ball combination to be such that they would be in an elite group. Currently, it seems that most anyone(50, 55 ages) can hit the ball out of the park on occasion. There are generally accept ideas concerning the loss of muscle, reaction time, etc. as we age. Why should we want/desire technology to make us better then we were in our prime?
Feb. 2, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Audie and Curt,
Great job.
Great post.
Way to show up, care and get involved.
You guys have fielded some of the best
teams I've had the experience of playing against.
I agree with almost everything you've put forth.

I don't mind equalizing homeruns
and runs per inning limits.
The cream will always go to the top.
I agree that the ball bat combo needs to stay good
and that over the limit HRs should be walks.
Significantly slowing down the ball
or making guys "change" their swings
and approaches at the plate is absurd
and has never worked in my experience.

We, at NCSSA, have tried to dumb down
the game and the bat/ball combo
and it has NEVER worked.
Did I say never?
Yes, I did.
All it's going to do is make for unsatisfying tournaments like SPA was last year
and cause significant no shows and deserters
going forward.
I hope SSUSA figures it out before 2009
gets going.


Feb. 2, 2009
notretiredyet555
Men's 55
30 posts
Audie & Curt, great post! Looking forward to seeing some of those bombs hit at "Classic Spring Training" in a couple of weeks. Keep the pressure on SSUSA. I've worked a lot the last couple of years at hitting the ball hard and will not be happy if it goes over the fence, being called out, and killing the inning for my team.
David
Feb. 2, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
after reading a post of this quality,you have to ask yourself are we as a organization really useing all our resources.lets think about this.in M+ there are 16 teams,that would total about 250 players and coaches.represented by a small few who make the rules and another small group who get on the message board (like myself) and complain about it.leaving the other couple hundred to churn in the wash.how hard would it be to pole 16 coaches in M+ for example(seeings how this is were the trouble seems to lie) and ask their teams opinion before putting it in ink.not saying that ssusa would be bound in anyway to results but could take advantage of some valuble insight from their customers.i believe that an organazation is only as strong as it's members ,we are talking about judges,lawyers,teachers,principals,bussinessmen,corp.execs.small bussiness owners,cops,blue collar guys,preachers and on and on.i know of one person who has taken it upon his self to help start a crusade to try to organize the M+ teams to show up at a select few tournys together this is the kind of things we need like communication remember the customer is always right.
Feb. 2, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
did i say pole,i mean poll
Feb. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Ray,
I'm surprised you can type so much and well
given how cold your hands can get from making
all those snowballs.
(couldn't help myself, Ray)
We're really blessed out here in California.
Yes.
Actions speak louder than words
and polls and surveys
as to what the main of the players want
and need would be right up our alley.

The customer is always right.
I like that.
Feb. 3, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Einstein ,we are just about to get started practicing for 09.Did I say practice,were talking about practice,Sorry couldn't resist A.I. ref.We will start hitting indoors soon as far as defence,we don't play any so we don't pratice it.Looking at another 60 days before we can get outside and than it will be touch and go.But we did pick up a couple more wooly mammouths for this year.
good luck buddy
Ray
Feb. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
An argument is made that if you leave homerun
hitting teams in with singles hitting teams
that the singles hitting teams can't compete.
If you emphasize pitching and defense,
make one or two minor modifications to pitching
to give the pitcher and the defense
more to do,
a good singles hitting team with effective "D"
can play with a homer-dome team
any day.
I hate bringing this up cause it destroys the illusion
I like to indulge in that I'm the best pitcher
in the universe.
Sad but true.
Bill, who pitched for Evolution last year,
the Mavericks the year before
and Joe Lecak's new team
is the best pitcher in ASA rule
senior ball.
He does more to throw and keep hitters
off balance than anyone I've seen or hit against.
And what he's doing almost all the time
is to get a big powerful batter to change his
swing meaningfully if slightly
and pop up, hit the ball down, hit it to the warning track.
He's the best I've ever seen at this
and if good pitching and defense get more emphasized and support
you don't have to worry so much
about the long ball.



Feb. 3, 2009
the wood
1076 posts
Ray, you make a good point about what the M+ players/teams really do want (phase 1). But this was done 6 months ago (M+ Task Force)at which time the M+ mgrs were polled for their input.
SSUSA followed the task force's recommendations and made changes to 8 of the 9 issues that were on the table. For what it's worth, the lone ranger (the point not heeded) was the PPR. The task force results on that point was totally neutral.
However, because there was a minimal turn out in Phoenix (Oct '08)in a couple of M+ divisions and because of the 'potential influx of M teams' into the M+ division, the rules were changed back to the present ones. I agree with Audie in stating that the economy had more to do with the reduced number of teams than the rules (the ones that the M+ mgrs wanted). In the 60 M+ portion, there were 2 teams that didn't go due to injuries and this was true in Nebraska as well. How we got from that set of rules to the present ones, IMO, has more to do with personal whims and profitability.
SSUSA had a spike year in 2007 (as it relates to the M+ division)when the 55 M+ had 7 teams... and this was similar to the 50 and 60 divisions. This became the yardstick by which all subsequent events were measured. In 2001, only 3 teams (50 M+) showed up in LV. Why? Well, this took place 3-4 days after 9/11. So we should look at seemingly unrelated considerations before throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Again, Ray, your point is well taken but WE need to have a better follow through (phase 2) once we obtain the information (M+ mgr's input). There are other assns that do understand the uniqueness of the M+ level and make every effort to provide the opportunity for us to play the game the way we want. One way to improve phase 2 is to communicate with our opponents/peers and make certain that we congregate together at the same events, as Lecak as been doing... the 60 M+ level is working toward this as well.
Here is the $64K question... how can the other assns provide this (w/o all of the dumbing down elements) if SSUSA cannot?
BW
Feb. 3, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Wood i realize they had a task force discuss these matters last year that affected M+.At which time we were a major team so we had no input at that time.In the mean time we got moved up to M+ thats fine we think we were a better fit in M+ because we were a more power oriented team good pitching shakey defence(how much D can you play with 9 catchers)but because of the extra home runs in M+ we thought that it would suit us better.Now with 12 hr limit we could be done in the first couple innings.We have been beaten bad by some good single hitting teams AKA Coors Lite on a regular basis.So really there is not a good fit for us anywhere,so what now rebuild team or bail? IMO i would like to see unlimited HRS, 7 run per inning last inning unlimited.Like Vegas last year.PPR is not needed im M+.With unlimited HRS.Thanks for feed back Wood,i feel it's speak now or forever hold your peace.so i'm making my plea.
Feb. 3, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Hi Joe Billy did not come with us he is playing 55 I think with Don Newhard's team. We are waiting to see how the ratings play out. What we have done is take a look at the schedules and attempted to maximize our enjoyment factor. Alot of our tournies are centered around getting some work before what we consider the events where we should see the maximum amount of teams. The tournies for us our Mesquite, Reno, hopefully Chicago, Salt Lake, LVSSA and Phoenix. What I believe will help the 50 major plus on the west coast is the explosion of interest in the 40's. Take for example Mesquite it is quite possible this division will have 10-12 teams and the 50 major plus teams have in the past opted to play in the 40's. It is a big advantage for us because it dramatically increases the number of teams available to compete against and also provides a good test to stay sharp when we play against teams our own age. Wood I believe you are starting to take a look at competing in the 55 major division for much the same reasons if I'm speaking out of turn correct me. The two major plus teams in SOCAL have a very close tie in to most of the 40 teams in SOCAL and Nevada. We are included in alot of the plans of these 6-8 teams.
Feb. 3, 2009
zatta
Men's 60
12 posts
1 question, how can a defensive team catch a home run?
Feb. 3, 2009
the wood
1076 posts
By all means, your voice is a necessity since your team has been put in 'no man's land' by virtue of the rules. Those of us that speak often don't have the impact that someone like you will have.
BTW, isn't there a 10 HR limit in your division?
BW
Feb. 3, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
after you have hit your quota you don't have to catch them they will be outs anyway.after which time you will see a bunch of three hundred pounders driving balls thru the infield,still think this is a good idea.ask a couple of infielders we played last year,not fun not safe.
Feb. 3, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Wood looking at the new rule book on-line it shows 12 HRS for M+ this year.
Feb. 3, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Hi Audie there are a number of teams built along the same line as the one I am playing on. It is a combo of two major teams due to aging up of half of the rosters. This is fact only we did not win anything and our roster currently has the requisite number of players to satisfy being a major roster. I saw at least 3 teams and possibly a 4th in the Vegas winter worlds constructed exactly like ours. Why us not them? When confronted you get the UM, YOU KNOW, IT's DIFFERENT FOR US, ETC. ETC. WTF who is kidding who here, I don't see any volunteering from these teams. I lost some respect for some of these players. We will be fine I'm sure we'll take some serious lumps but I would bet we give some too.
Feb. 3, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Hey Joe did you get the contact info i sent you?You have to know that these guys are not going up without a fight, for someone to call ssusa and ask to be moved up,not happening.I don't think we would have come right out and requested a move up,but did not blink when ask to do so by ssusa.none of what i'm griping about has any thing to do with being moved up,it appears that the hr limit for M+ was put in to place to level the playing field for major teams moving up.it worked to the contrary for us,i think.hope to see you guys in july and we will be out west at least twice this year.
Feb. 3, 2009
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Wood you are right it is a 10 hr limit after looking again at the on-line rule book it is a 2008 edition.so it's worse than i thought it was!Thanks for the correction.
Feb. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
SSUSA cannot be dumb to the vulnerability
to infielders and pitchers that HR's as outs
means.
They obviously have another agenda, Ray.
After making HR's outs
the big guys are now hitting missiles
through, to the infield and it's another
"reasonable" jump to saying the balls are too hot.
Follow the money, the sponsors, the lobbying
those who want to make money off us
to figure out who's zooming who.


Feb. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There's an influential and powerful elite group of
players, admins and marketeers
who've decided our ball is too hot, Ray.
None of the records show
that there are more injuries
since going to good balls and 1.2 bats
but that doesn't seem to deter them at all.
They seem to have a lot to say
but they don't represent
the majority of us
and there lies our dilemma.
Most of us prefer a good bat ball combo
and will not be pleased or satisfied
by the trend to "dumb it" all down.
Feb. 3, 2009
Walk
192 posts
The name of this thread is "Somebody Needs To Say It."
Well that is just what I intend to do. I agree with the most of the posts and I would also say this I would love for things to be as they were but THEY ARE Not AND WILL NOT BE ANYTIME SOON. So it looks like to me we have three choices.

One, boycott this association which is not going to happen. No matter who says what everyone will still show up and play. Some because it is all they have and the others because to play ball. A few will not play SSUSA but the majority will.

Two, come on here and be hard headed old men about what we want and don't want. Cry and complain about who is behind this and what is the real intent. Joe I understand your point of view but I would suggest to you that like the record you refer to that shows there are no more injuries with the current bat/ball combo there is no record to prove the powerful elite group of players admins and marketeers are behind this.

Is it true that the Major + group wants more teams? yes and they should watch what they wish for but are they behind the homerun rule change, bat/ball combo change, and the dbo? I doubt it. It would not be in their best interests. I would suggest it has more to do with the SSUSA wanting the number of teams to go up (SSUSA staff you should really consider this before you do it. It did not work for the USSSA and they assume they are as strong as you and yet their numbers are declining in slowpitch), the insurance carrier, and the threat of lawsuits in this lawsuit happy world that we live in.

Three, stop bastardizing the game and just admit what has to happen for us to have the game the way it was. We want these bats. We do not want the ASA bats or the USSSA bats. No we want our own bats (I like them too). So if we want the bats we so desire and we want the game to go back to the way it was then we are going to have to change the ball. I know it is not popular but rather we like it or not this change is coming so lets just do it, stop complaining about it and everything else, practice a little more, and get the game back to the way it was.

BOTTOMLINE if ASA, and USSSA are changing the ball standard (which they are) and we do not then when someone sues this association or any other senior association they will win in court because ASA and USSSA are changing for safety concerns and thus that will trump the we prefer a good bat and ball combo every time.

If we do not change the ball to that which is coming then we will be stuck with these rules forever and yes they suck. So I say change the rules back SSUSA, keep the senior bats, and go to the 52/275 ball that you will be going to before long. Lets stop bastardizing the game, complaining and just play ball the way it use to be.

I know I will get flamed over this but that is ok. Someone had to say it.
Walk
Feb. 3, 2009
Walk
192 posts
PS the ball is not that bad. We have hit it here in KC with every bat you can think of in every weather condition you can think of and everyone seems to like it that has hit with us. All would perfer to hit this ball and take them game back to the way it was than to do what we are doing now.
Feb. 3, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
Walk why is having more teams, (I would think 8-12 more nationally would do the trick 50's only) something I should be careful wishing for? I've certainly been on that side of the argument of more teams. To me not having the teams now would lead to almost my whole senior playings days not having a representative field and possibly not playing very much. My current team is M+ and we're clearly not anything but scrappy. Not much power, pretty good D, run well, why us and not a few more teams. I'm not lobbying for anything I'm looking in the mirror and see a guy who was given last rites a few years ago, had some heart issues and has a shoulder held together with spit and staples. If this thing is so elite how did I and my team get invited. I feel like Rush Limbaugh at an exclusive White House function. Of the 16 fifty teams listed I would guess 10 of them are actually active. (leaving their region) that is hard to fathom. 150 men age 50-54 capable of playing major plus, Walk is that possible?
Feb. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Walk,
I remember Mike Kelly saying how bad
he wanted you to play with us on Kelly's.
I remember you hitting the ball way the heck out
every AB in a National when you played against us.
I remember you saying you were helping Kevin S
from Anaconda in a semi-formal capacity
not long ago.
I remember you as a upstanding and valuable
member of the softball community.
However,
I know that the long ball guys
will actually fair better with the "new" ball
that Kevin has been developing than the majority of senior players who are not monster long ball threats like yourself.
It's not having the power to hit/spin a ball 350 feet.
It's about what happens when the "new" ball
is struck hard, flat and firm.
This hitting the ball hard and in the middle,
"Cut the ball in half", is fundamental to all the learning that goes into at little league to
high school, to college to softball hitting fundamentals.
Spinning the ball instead of squashing the ball
is counter intuitive to using our best athletic
and animal instincts to strike a ball/anything
dead center like any target, or a jaw
or a nail head and on and on.

Also, the majority of seniors aren't long ball hitters
and won't fair as well trying to get pace on the ball
going through a hole or by defenders.

It's a terrific idea as ideas go
but despite all the investment and hoopla
and influence over a powerful few
it's not going to work.
Hitting a good ball, hitting the ball hard and well
are just too intrinsic to the fundamental joy and experience of playing senior softball.
And we seniors have created a game
that's fun enough to bring 26 teams
to Phoenix last year
in the most competitive tournament
I have experienced in my career.
If it ain't broken, why fix it
and at what cost.


Feb. 3, 2009
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
DBO's just aint the way its meant to be. I like pitching but when the HR is an out, I DO NOT want to be on the mound in M+. We would have more teams in M+ if we didnt glorify winning a national title in AA. Major plus players know you've got it right (Curt and Audie) but the rules arent made for us. The rules are made for the masses because the masses pay the bills. Major plus is not a profitable division in softball. Its the same reason no one ever holds an "A" tournament in the flat belly world, Who would show up? If we could get the best players to show up and play major ball we could have the rules the way they are supposed to be. Until then DBO's and PPR's will be in the game.
Feb. 3, 2009
JamesLG
299 posts

Audieh:

You have many very good points in your post but your #1 issue of AA, AAA and major teams staying away from M+ issues is off base. Didn't all the rule changes start with the M+ task force? The results changed the rules for all of us who play under SSUSA rules. You guys are fun to watch but not all of us are 225lb+ people who can hit it a mile. There is nothing wrong with a 330' HR. If I am off base on the rule change I do apologize but from what I have seen on the board it all started with the best of the best.
Thank You:
James
Feb. 3, 2009
the wood
1076 posts
James:
It actually started last January (2008) when SSUSA came out with similar rules as these... albeit with higher HR limits... but the changes were only limited to M+... hence the M+ Task Force.
The task force was not initiated until June of 2008 and was an effort by SSUSA to determine what M+ players (age 50-60) wanted (not what would make M teams want to play M+). The task force delivered as asked and SSUSA modified their rules accordingly. However, the latter didn't occur until mid-summer and many M+ teams had already planned their schedules.
Still, Audie's point about confining this discussion to the players that will be playing in M+ is valid. No, not everyone is a HR hitter and this is why there are several levels of play. For what it's worth, not all M+ players hit HRs, contrary to popular belief.
Unlike the 2008 rule changes, the current changes DO impact all levels in some manner. But M+ players' opinions about what is best for AA-M are equally unnecessary.
BW
Feb. 3, 2009
WOW
197 posts
With all due respect, would it not be easier for you M+ [and possibly the M] players to "do your own thing", "form your own assn." or "organization".
I read all your posts and its obvious most of you guys are NOT happy with the way things are. Thats OK! You guys have some good ideas and if the assns. involved are to restrictive, relieve the burden of having to play within their rules and just "do your own thing.
Feb. 3, 2009
the wood
1076 posts
Wow, you offer good advice but it's just easier to just play where the 'M+ nests' already exist.
But if the teams are not satisfied, they will ultimately gravitate away from the things that they don't like.
BW
Feb. 3, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
audie,great post.i no longer play in the upper div(no team in my area),i play 55 AAA for now.i for one don't mind the limits on the lower levels,but do agree the top div should not be limited,thats why they are the top.

now for you joe(einstein),if you hit the ball dead center you are going to be hitting a knuckleball.very few people i know can hit a knuckleball 300',so hitting a ball with some backspin should be what you are trying to do in the first place.so why do you need to keep complaining about having to put backspin on the ball,its what you should be doing anyways.so this cutting of the ball(putting backspin on it)should be no big deal.
well thats my rant,good luck to all the big boys and hope you can get the changes you want.
Feb. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Jim,
Good to hear from you
and I respect someone who will show up
for his activities and beliefs.
Aren't you also, a business associate of Kevin at Anaconda?
Terrific company and very,
very smart business people.

Dumbing down our equipment and DBO's will not be satisfying or enjoyable enough for us senior softball players.
It's a great idea that just isn't going to work
as most of us who play our game
will attest to and discover.


Feb. 3, 2009
DCPete
234 posts
You should only try to put backspin on the ball if you're trying to hit a fly ball HR. Otherwise, some of the best hitters will put topspin on the ball enabling them to hit line drives over the IFs and in front of and/or between the OFs.
Can't remember ever seeing or hearing of a coach at any level instructing their hitters to hit the ball with backspin.
Feb. 3, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Dog,
Always good to read your posts.
I want to pitch and so would any good pitcher
to anyone who's trying to cut a ball.
Short pitches are almost impossible to cut.
I would think up and outside would be tough,
also.
Anything deep on the back shoulder
would be difficult.
Get where I'm going?
And that's just off the top of my head.
If I can fool you with a pitch you'll probably revert
to what's innate and try to hit it dead center
whether you wanted to or not.
And a good knuckleball with some wind
with late breaking, unpredictable movement
and good luck trying to cut anything
but wind.
What a field day for good pitchers.


Feb. 3, 2009
mad dog
Men's 60
3929 posts
pete,yes and no.yes if you are wanting to hit a long ball backspin is perferable,and most all coaches have you doing a slight downward swing at contact to hit botton half of ball to do it(and that is all types of ball).no,if you are going for 180-200' base hits you hit the top half of the ball to get top spin.so no matter what,you are looking for some spin on the ball,be it top or back.
Feb. 4, 2009
Walk
192 posts
Joe what we found is that if you hit the ball flat and not up you will get a nice linedrive base hit. I believe if you hit this ball you would be surprised. But my point is not to promote the ball my point is to say I would rather go back to the way the game was played (with the senior bats) and if that means using this ball now then so be it. We will be using this ball or a ball like it very soon so lets stop changing the game and go to the ball.

Lecak, point about watching what you wish for is also simple. I played Major Plus when Smith had his team and everyone hated him (why we have regional rules the real problem with the number of major plus teams but no one wants to admit it). So they changed the rules to get rid of teams like that.

Now add these new rules to increase teams which it may and what do you think will happen if the old guard starts losing again? I expect another rule change would be in order.

I for one am tired of yearly rule changes but then again what can one expect from a privately owned association. Truth is we can bitch all we want this is a private association and they will do as they please.
Feb. 4, 2009
hitit
10 posts
Why does "Walk" speak in the authoritative position on the new ball...."we will be using this bll or a ball like it....." Is this a fact? Is he in a decision making process? I've heard that 2009 will be the same as 2008.....but will 2010 be using a different ball?

I've witnessed upper level play for years and have seen how the Major teams (in the open program) aren't just HR hitters. They are great hitters. They can go either side and hit missles up the middle.....the opposite side of where the 5-man is playing. And, when going middle, the difference of reaction time (50 feet away) is so small, at the senior level.....a pitcher isn't going to be saved by it. If it's in your face & chest area you will make a play. If it's at your ankles or knee, you won't have time to get it if it's struck real well by a power hitter. So, if you think this new ball will give pitchers a sense of security, you are wrong!

And, this is the very reason it is NOT GOOD for Major+ teams to be playing Major teams with HR restrictions. Pitchers are going to get hurt! Mark my word. There is the biggest classification difference between Major+ & Major. Most Major+ teams are well recruited and are fully sponsored very similar to comparing a Major team to an A team in the open program. Sure, they live with HR restictions, and the Major teams light up the middle so hard and hit pitchers...there are usually a few serious injury's and fights on the fields. Is this what the senior program wants? If I were a pitcher on a Major team and a Major+ player did the "California shuffle" and directly slammed the ball up the middle with intention, I would have somehting to say. If another player did it (a second time)or I got hurt, off come the gloves! I wouldn't stand for it to be a "target" for some Major+ player "just trying to get a hit".

Major+ teams know what they are trying to do when they put these teams together. They are the best of the best, and I congratulate them. But, they must understand that Major teams may have a few players of their caliber, but that does not make a Major+ TEAM! Teams that are un-voluntary moved up to be "whipping boys" will soon depart from play. Major teams should be the highest classification. And, if you want to play up, get loads of sponsors, get the best of the best...then have at it...but, know that you are going into a very elite selective classification and you may not have near the numbers of teams to play against.

As many people have mentioned.....this is OUR association and all paying card members, coaches & sponsors should be involved in the rule changing decision process. If not, then.,....again...as others have said....there is many other areas to play or change your recreation to other sporting activities.

Thanks for the opportunity to share an opinion.
Feb. 4, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You speak very comfortably about the ball
and "what WE'VE found out..."
That's your WE.

MY we, Walk, are the players who comprise and have been playing senior softball and I speak for the majority of players
when I say we want good bat/ball combos
and HR's as singles/walks or we'll find/create
associations like NCSSA where we can play
the game like it was intended, to have fun.

Walk, when you talk about the game as it was
I remember 47x525 worth blue dots
and single wall bats.
The standard you represent with the new ball
falls well below that bat/ball combo
as evidenced by all including Kevin
and that is just unacceptable.

Sorry Walk.
You're a legendary hitter and a great guy
but I disagree with you as do/will most of the players who play senior softball.
You can say it's a privately owned association
all you want and thanks for making it clear to the rest of us where the disconnect is coming from regarding administration and player standards
but I've seen what happens when the bat/ball combo goes south and the fun's gone out of the game and it just won't fly with the main of us.
So did Nancy.
Hi Nancy.

It's possible the powers that be
or the "WE" you were referring to
are looking past us
to the next generation of players
and are willing to take the loss, our loss
to establish a standard that will benefit them
without being challenged.
Good luck.
The kids will figure it out soon enough.
If it's not fun enough, they won't come,
just like the most of us.
I think the answer is
it's our game
all our game
and that would mean all of us
asking, working, compromising together
to help keep the us and the game well
going on into the future.
The "WE" you refer to would do well
to remember it's our game, too.



Feb. 4, 2009
Lecak
Men's 55
1006 posts
hitit I'm sure I sound like a broken record but on the west coast there are three 50 major plus teams. That would be about 45 men. In the states that these teams can draw from there are 60 million people. Two of the teams most of the players came from two 40 year old teams from a number of years ago and I believe the WA team was formed from some old friendships. Doesn't sound like a major recruiting effort on the part of these three teams. The numbers and logic don't add up. 2 of the three teams have no sponsorship whatsoever. My wife is about ready to kill me. We'll make do but my point is these major teams you speak of would not be whipping boys. Also on my team we grabbed two players that had never played senior ball before and put them on our roster (neighborhood guys by the way not from far reaches of the west coast and certainly not recruited). They didn't know any better and had a blast. I wonder what their opinion would be if they were indoctrinated into what major plus is really all about, would the same guys have made a big fuss. It's just softball.
Feb. 4, 2009
hitit
10 posts
Hello Lecak,

I'm not sure where you are coming from on this last post....so, I'll try to respond. Maybe these three teams on the West Coast ARE NOT Major+ teams according to what you have said. Maybe they are just "the best of the Major classification" and I am OK with that. Move back down, play by the Major rules. If indeed they don't have the budget, players aren't recruited, etc. I am sure nobody will complain unless they are winning nearly every tourney you play in. Then, it would signify a move up. If the lower 1/4 of the Major division can't compete, then allow to move down to AAA...but, you have to play to those lower rules as well. And, many of the upper senior players don't want to play down too far and lose their ability to hit HR's & such. Do you really think a very good Major team would want to go down to AAA or AA and win every tourney with those rules? I've played "A" ball for years and didn't find any fun in beating up on C teams in equalizer tournaments, no fun at all. So, let the Major+ teams (as few as they are) have their "own" division & classification. And, they will have to expect fewer teams to play. It's just that simple. And, only move up (to the wolves) a Major team that is purely DOMINATING their division. By only able to score 5 runs an inning, I just don't see a big difference in teams within Major division. I think it's all very close. Again, thanks for allowing the availability to share an opinion.
Feb. 4, 2009
Walk
192 posts
Hitit I am not in an authoritative position but if I am wrong then I will come on here and admit it but if I am right will you come on here and admit I am right about the ball change? It is coming. It was not really being thought of before but it is now.

Joe once again you miss the point or you just do not want to see the forest for the trees. First of all the WE is the 100+ seniors that tested the ball here in the midwest and who would rather go to that ball and THE SENIOR BATS (I have only said that in every post) than to have the rules changed every year and some years twice. This We is also a group of senior out west that believe we should go to this ball.


The WE is also the 100+ none senior players who know that this is the wave of the future (some being this year) and would rather use this ball and any 1.20 bat instead of having to buy many different ones. So Joe this WE IS NOT JUST ME!!!!!!

Last but not least what it really comes down to is this one fact. This is a PRIVATE ASSOCIATION that is owned by two people. They will make the rules as they see fit and do as they see fit my playing status is a great case in point. So in my opinion I see it this way the only way to get rid of the homerun rules you don't like, the DBO rule you don't like and keep the bats you and most everyone does like is to be willing to go to a ball that all the associations will be using or considering by 2010 before then we try to broker a deal that the game goes back to the old rules and YET KEEP THE SENIOR BATS.

I was talking to someone today from the west coast who informed me that I believed this message board was about trying to get things done, talk softball, and just connect but the fact is this is really just a board to complain about rules and do nothing to improve the game. He was right. Audieh and Curt I am sorry for voicing my opinion and doing my best to wake people up to what is really coming. I probably ruin the thread.

I am out. Have fun and good luck to all this year.
Feb. 4, 2009
Dbax
Men's 60
1264 posts
Hitit, your last post is right on the money. A team should not move up after winning one tournament. When they strt dominating, then move them up.
Feb. 4, 2009
DCPete
234 posts
Can anyone explain why the ball needs to be changed in order to continue using the Senior bats? Or to put it another way, what exactly is the problem with the current game that requires this new ball to be implemented?
What would happen, or not happen, if the new ball isn't used?
Just curious since it's not very clear.
Feb. 5, 2009
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
DC PETE: Pete, the 40 & 44 cor balls travel over 3 MPH faster thru the infield, compaired to the 47 & 50 cor ball.

The lighter bats, 24, 25, 26, 27, & 28 oz bats, have caused an 8% increase in Batted Ball Speed. BBS= faster speed of the ball off a bat.

THE LIGHTER BATS ARE HERE TO STAY. THESE BATS DO HELP THE WOMEN, OLDER SENIORS, ETC. More fun for the older Seniors.

A BBS of 85.5 MPH, means that once a ball has been hit, that ball will travel 50' in .4 of a sec. New test studies, indicate that the ave. Seniors, are not able to react faster than .419 of a sec. Once the ball is hit, it take .111 of a sec just to have the eyes focus on a ball. Then add .111 of a sec, for the brain to process, & then another .111 of a sec to start to react.

Baseball studies, have shown that it takes a ML pitcher, almost .2 of a sec, for a pitcher to raise their glove 26".

From a Senior that has been test' the 52 cor ball, this "NEW" ball travels thru the infield 10 to 15% slower.
Remember 3 MPH plus 8% BBS = an increase of about 10% or about 10 to 12 MPH.

"what exactly is the problem with the current game that requires this new ball to be implemented?"

All I can say, about this statement, I am sure that most Seniors have different feelings on this subject.

This "NEW" ball, will not cause massive damage to humans, if, this ball hit a player. Just Dave Dowell & that pitcher that got hit last week in Fla. A super elite top player, hit a pitcher in the knee & that pitcher was able to finish the game & had only a small half moon arc on his knee. THIS STATEMENT COME FROM AN E-MAIL, SENT TO ME. As I understand, K.S., was @ that game.

WALK......... time to set up to the plate, if, you would.
Feb. 5, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Walk.
Let me get this straight.
You tested the ball, you meaning
you and Anaconda
who's developed and promoted it
with 100 guys and they ALL thought the ball was
something positive to go to.
All 100 right?
No dissenters?
Not one.

I've never been surer Walk
'cause I can read between the lines
and see the forest for the trees
that the new ball performs unacceptably
and won't be liked or supported by
the majority of senior players.
Want to bet a cup of coffee on it?
You're own words, Walk
are that "the ball is not that bad".
Not that bad isn't good enough
for us, Walk.

I've never been surer that the drive
to the new ball is the work of a very small
but powerful group of marketeers
and administrators
who've decided to advance their marketeering
and administrative agendas
at the expense of what is wanted
and needed by the majority of senior players.
I said players, Walk.
Simple, sad and true.

And let me get this part right, too.
It's OK to change our game
almost unilaterally against what most of us
would chose
but not OK to call it into being
and complain that this is probably not
a good thing to do
and will more than likely not work.
And that makes us whiners and malcontents?

We have the best players on the west coast
and the best teams
in the country and have demonstrated it
over the last decade.
Why, the OLD A'S alone have won
close to 40 national titles during that time
all by themselves, not including
Kellys, The Mavericks, the Rebels,
MTC, GSF, Old Dawgs, just to name a few.

We don't have to take
not being listened to or satisfied.
Maybe SSUSA and other associations
need the wake up call, Walk
because we, out here in the west,
can and will do our own thing
if we need and want to.
One version is NCSSA.

What you keep saying, Walk,
is the new ball is coming
and there's nothing we can do about
so we better just all go along with it.
Like the white men and the indians.
That's great.
Just roll over cause there's nothing we
can do about it.

Unacceptable.

Feb. 5, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Also,
why the ball, Walk.
We can adjust pitching rules
to solve the problems we
the players experience.
But it's not about our needs and wants
is it, those of the players.
It's the private association you referred to
being able to do whatever it wants.
Just like George Steinbrenner and the Yankees
before Joe Torre came to town.

We don't have to take it
if we don't want to.
Feb. 5, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Walk... how dare you speak for most of us... surely you know that Whine-stein has assigned himself that honor... perhaps you could ask him how economics enters this argument ... we would stop buying one type of ball and start buying a different one ... that is very different from having to scrap current bats for others ... additionally, changing only the ball may allow us not to have to make any other changes to our game, ie. screens, PPR, homerun rules, etc., etc., etc.
Feb. 5, 2009
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Einstein, why would you want to change the rules AGAIN to help the pitcher (besides the obvious reason, you pitch)? Adjusting the pitching rules would take more fun out of the game than any new ball ever would. Jesus, just try the new ball. It might work. Last year, at the Winter Worlds, the homers were flying out like crazy. We had guys on our team, who hardly ever get it to the track, hitting it out. Something had to be done.
Feb. 5, 2009
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Ken... you nailed it!!!... Whine-stein may not be able to go yard as often if there is a change in the present bat/ball combination, thereby rendering him unable to feed his vastly overinflated ego... He would much prefer to make fundamental changes in the game itself so that he can selfishly continue to use R&D to hit the long ball.
Feb. 5, 2009
DCPete
234 posts
Hi-Jacker; thanx for the excellent info & explanation. Also a welcome change of pace amid all the unproductive complaining & name-calling.
I guess a reasonable question to be asked is whether this new ball is preferable to moving the bases back to 70 feet & increasing the arc to 15 feet?
Feb. 5, 2009
jrhunch
92 posts
we should be asking ourselves why are we making these changes?there is a trust issue here.is the new ball for the players benefit?if so why are we using the 40 and 44 ball in the first place?when i first started playing senior ball we were using 47 and 50 balls.those balls were safer but were changed.why?in vegas this year i never saw so many hard hit balls.i bet 40 of the hits would be placed in my top 100 hit balls i have seen.as seniors we have been asked to make numerous changes that cost us money and in some cases injury for reasons that are not to our benefit.the assn.have been letting us hit the unsafe ball for years now.all we should do is go back to the 47 and 50.we spent alot of money to go to salem va to play softball at 240 ft. because the balls suck.why are we as seniors asked to make needless changes?it is bad enough that we have to buy cards and also pay sanction fees.i am losing trust and confidence in the powers that be.i love playing softball which is a simple game that is starting to get too complicated and too expensive.stay safe and keep hitting.i need to see a lawyer so i can keep up on all these rules.
Feb. 6, 2009
tattooball
606 posts
jrhunch
Back in the jan 2003 ss-usa softball newspaper all of the ball manufactures were interviewed by Terry for an artical. This was when everyone decided to go to the .44/375 ball. If you can find an old copy you will see that the information about the high cor ball was available back then.

The associations were and still are paying a couple of DR's to do the testing of equipment. They have never played the game and didn't understand the physics of composite bats. There test equipment only gave them straight line data that is not accurate with bats of today, appearant with all of the bat banning that came after approvals. They believed that simply lowering the cor/comp would do the trick. The truth is that every time they lessened the cor they were making composite bats react better.

After years of testing they are now seeing that and making proper changes, the amount of money made by these test facilities is dumb-founding for the data they provided. Now they see the light and making the proper corrections in order to bring softball back to it's glory days.

They also were 1/2 right, if composites did not enter the game lowering the cor would have worked with aluminum.

It's all there in black and white if you can find the issue of jan-2003
Feb. 6, 2009
tattooball
606 posts
In response to Joe,
Why do you need to change the rules AGAIN? This is just a game, it is meant to be fun. It is a recreation sport. It is meant to be that and nothing more. If you had the skills to be a professional ball player you would have been.

Aren't you the same guy that is complaining about every new rule they just put in place? Do you need another reason to come on here and act like a child?

PS: Thanks for all of the attention you have given Anaconda sports and Trump about the new ball, you really have made marketing this product easy......
Feb. 6, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Right on JR.
We ALL need to be asking those questions.
Who says the ball
needs to be changed and why?
And now we know by
following the money and connecting the dots.
Thanks Kevin and friends.







Feb. 6, 2009
hitit
10 posts
To: WALK Not trying to be offensive or feel the need for you or me to "say whose right if and when the new ball comes out". I was just asking if you were a person that is an authority figure on determing the outcome, that's all.

My vote, eliminate senior bats and play with current USSSA bats and use a good hard ball. But, since so much money is going to this association from bat sponsor(s), I guess that isn't going to happen. As I posted earlier, I just hate to see the ball going to a ball similar to the "conference ball" that was used in Orlando last fall in "B" & "D" Worlds. Single digit scores, mulitple double plays, 30 minute game times = no fun at all.

I'm just having a hard time understanding how this new ball can go much slower through the infield yet as mentioned above, players that never hit HR's before are blowing them out of the park. I'm not an engineer, but it just doesn't make sense that a slower ball will also be a longer ball.
Feb. 6, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin,
You obviously don't like or play our game
the senior game
but you like making money off us, don't you.
You now have been revealed to be
"the" prime mover
to down grade our bat/ball combo
to protect your investment and all your R&D
as you propose our bat/ball combo is
too hot.
Not for us but obviously for you.

You've got a lot of people convinced
that this is the wave of the future,
that's its inevitable and there's nothing that can be done about it but I have found you to be
the little man behind the curtain
not even willing to stand up and take credit for all you've already done.
You're not fooling me or anyone who
can connect the dots and follow the money.

I don't mind you making money and protecting
you and your company but sell yourself
as you are and not as somebody trying
to help us enjoy our game.
You have been exposed and the players
will decide what it means to us.



Feb. 7, 2009
tattooball
606 posts
Joe,
Yes very correct,I have been working on this with ASA for over 2 years now. It definatly looks as though this is the future for them.
As far as senior softball goes, YOU in fact have been the leader in getting them to look at this ball. I've said from the begining that this ball may not be good for many of the age groups to use. yet your persistance in this matter has made the powers that be start to wonder if this is the future of the game. Soon you will see many seniors on here posting about the ball, because of your tireless banter many are ordering them to hit for themselves. I guess your word just doesn't mean anything to them, as you believe. Kepp it up sales are good.

Hitit,
Currenet balls work on the compression side of the equation, the new ball works on the cor side.
Compression changes dramaticly in different temps. COR however is not effected by changing temps. A .52 bal is .52 at 40 or at 100 degrees. All that cor means is the ability to rebound. A bat compression is in the 180 to 200 + range, by lowering the compression both the bat and ball compress transfering less energy to the ball when hit square. When you hit the bottom of the ball because of the high COR it wants to bounce off the bat at a very good pace. The biggest mis-conception is changing your swing, False. For a homerun hit the bottom of the ball and watch it spin. You all do that now.

Heres the difference, Balls hit square won't knuckle out or line drives with no spin. Those are the balls that are hurting players throughout the softball community.

As for injuries, they will not stop them but will lessen the severity by a huge margine. Both of Joe's broken arms would have resulted in a bruise and probably not even leave the mound.


















Feb. 7, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Great Kevin.
It's what I've been trying to say
and show all along and thanks for agreeing
that you are a business man,
an exceptional one and we the players
involved up to your eyeballs in Senior Softball
Dynamics and decisions.
If seniors want to use square balls
and tennis rackets, so be it.
I just know, I don't
and most everyone I know doesn't either.

All have been warned and all that has to be exposed has been as far as I'm concerned
the new ball/rules aren't good enough
for me and I won't play.
Everyone will make their own decision.

It is still my belief and experience
that over 50 senior softball players
won't like, won't put up and shouldn't
with dumbed down equipment
that will take away from the joy and experience
of senior ball.

Look at that Kevin.
Hell of an argument and no one got killed.
Feb. 7, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
sorry to all for being sloppy
this is how the above comment should open up.

Great Kevin.
It's what I've been trying to say
and show all along and thanks for agreeing
that you are a business man,
an exceptional one
involved up to your eyeballs in Senior Softball
Dynamics and decisions.
Feb. 7, 2009
tattooball
606 posts
Joe,
i don't agree with you, hell I don't even understand your post 95% of the time because you talk out of both sides of your mouth. you are far to hypocritical for me to understand what you really want.

The information in my last post is the exact same as the imformation that I posted 6 months ago when you first started this drivel. Same exact info, but today you agree? WOW what the hell have I been missing?

Maybe if you actually read the first post you could have spared all of us the pointless banter.

I have encluded a post from june 8 to show that the story has been consistant, but with all of your hard work SS-USA did look into the ball.


Fist of all if you had read my reply you would have seen the part that u-trip has not used the ball in any conference event anywhere this year. Dudley is the sponsor of the conference and they use a .40/300 comp ball only. In the stadiums they will use a .47/500 this year. So any feed back that you have gotten about a ball used in a u-trip event is the dudley ball.

Feel free to call it is free. 800-327-0074 ext 210, it would take to long to go over all of the details of this ball here. Terry has had none of these balls for testing and has had no involvement in testing any for seniors. I don't know what part of that you are having a problem with....


One thing strikes me funny about your posts, you are a great player Joe and not everyone should be a home run threat or a great batter because you can buy a great bat. People that work at the game should be the best and the rest that don't should be the guy's you work to get out. You posts sound like we should just have a home run derby to decide who wins.

Feb. 7, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Kevin,

There's a lot of senior players and readers
who get me and where I'm coming from.
I'm sorry if you are unable to see clearly.
Very competitive guys can be so single minded
they lose perspective on just about everything else.
Maybe that's happened to the both of us somewhat.

I know you're a good person,
bright as can be,
can hit a softball a mile
and are not trying to disadvantage anyone.
I don't think the new ball is for me
and the rest of the seniors.
I don't think dumbing down our hitting experience
will work.
I've seen it tried before.

I don't like the contentiousness between us
or with anyone for that matter.
I'm sorry it ever got personal
and would give it up in a second if we could.

We disagree, really and that's not a crime
in America, at least, not yet.

Feb. 7, 2009
tattooball
606 posts
Dis-agreeing is no problem, many do and many don't.
When you falsely made accusations of me and my company you intended to do harm. In your apology you admit that it was a ploy to improve your position in a market place. Yes Joe everyone that read that post saw it.

That is where my problem with you is. We employ over 200 people, they have families to feed,clothe,and provide care for. We are resposible for providing a safe and effective work place. In this day and age that is not as easy as one thinks. Ask your friend Mike Kelly about that. Sales are down all over and the economic future is more uncertain that ever before. So you need to think just for a second before you post non-factual libel in the future.

When you go on your rants you need to stop trying to do financial harm to others, you may not see it that way but everyone else saw what your intentions were. libal is illegal, and if I thought we had anything to gain from this,we would have handled it. So the next time you don't agree make sure your facts are true. Freedom of speach does stop when a crime has been committed, action will be enforced next time.

As for the balls, please continue to post, our phones have been ringing quite well and many of your peers are buying them.

And yes in my opinion many of the divisions of senior softball are broken, if they weren't why do we need any rules other than the ones made up 50 years ago. That being said many of the divisions are not........
Feb. 7, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Kevin,
I know you like to have the last word.

I pushed you a little harder
because I had a self interest.
I never changed what I discovered, thought
and believed to be true.
You are defined by self interest
and think errantly that senior softball is broken.
Most of us, never did and don't now.

Now, why would you invent
that something was broken
and only you had the antidote, for sale.
Hmmmmm.

Let's not reprise the entire argument.
It's all a matter of record.
As I have always said to both you and Dave,
let's let the PLAYERS decide what time it is
who to believe and what is true.
Feb. 7, 2009
tattooball
606 posts
Not broken? Please explain to the entire senior community why new rules have been put in place since 2003, and continue to change yearly. 2000 was a great year seniors just played softball. I worked my first senior tourny in 1994 Rb Thomas had a great team but had to battle every team there to win. No time limits, no runs per inning, no home run rules no special bats, ah what softball used to be.
Feb. 7, 2009
tattooball
606 posts
And again the new ball has nothing to do with senior softball, I think you've left some of your mind back in the 60's because youu just can't believe this is not about you.
Feb. 7, 2009
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You don't play our game,
You don't know our game
And you don't love our game, Kevin
and your presume you know what's
best for us.
I think you set YOURSELF up.

We are the seniors.
We like our game, fundamentally
as 26 teams in Phoenix last year at SSUSA
will attest.
We've been investing and changing along
with it for years now.

40 and over guys have been drooling
to become seniors so they can play our game.

Anyone interested in us
or the success of their tournaments
should take the rules of Phoenix
and reproduce them going forward
but not diminish or change them fundamentally.
Someone decided to change the character
of the game by making HRs outs
or didn't know it would change the character
of the game
or didn't care it would change the character
of the game.
Our game by making HR's outs.

We like our game.
We're tired of changing, Dave et al.
We feel we're being pushed around
and used
and want to stop and find
out who's driving the wagon
to make 'em pull over.


Feb. 7, 2009
tattooball
606 posts
Two years left ans I will be playing, find out who is making the changes before you speak because you look like a fool saying it's me. I have never sat in on any rules committees as many of your friends can attest to, they were there. Glad to hear you were apart of inventing kittenball.
Feb. 8, 2009
muarice
1 posts
Hey Kevin,
You mentioned in an earlier post that the old testing was done on aluminum bats. They kept lowering the core to reduce the flight of the ball. Would we be better off using aluminum bats (a stiffer bat?) with the new 52 core ball?
Thanks,
Maurice
Feb. 8, 2009
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
MUARICE: I believe in earlier post, Kevin, & someone stated that the best bats to use were bats that were stiff.

The subject was best bats to use on:
1)high compression balls
2)mid compression balls, OK with most
3)low compression balls USE STIFFER BAT

("A recent report showed that lower COR balls actually came off the bat faster than higher COR balls. The report, The Effect of Softball Compression and Coefficient of Restitution on Batted Ball Speed, was based on a new study technique that used actual bat speeds and new high-tech bats. (( PLEASE, PAY CLOSE ATTENTION, TO THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT.))

Using the new, more realistic techniques, a .40 COR ball came off the bat 3.57 miles per hour faster and went 11-12 feet farther than a .47 COR ball.")

FROM AN EARLIER POST: CAME from Kevin?

The following should help you in understanding the ball compression and how it relates to certain bats. I have broken it down to what I hope is an easier to understand format, because I know it can be confusing.

375lbs low compression = more flexible or 'mushy' does not perform well with high flex bats. DO NOT USE A BAT THAT has a great deal of FLEX! Use a STIFF BAT!

400lb-475lbs. mid compression = medium flexibility still performs OK with most bats.

525lb. compression= harder ball-performs well with almost any bat on the market, but especially juiced or high flex models etc.

Core 47= more flexible bouncy or 'mushy'
Core 44= medium flexibility
Core 40= less flexible


As you can see here if you were to have a core 40 with a low compression ball you still will have decent almost mid performance, which I have found to be true in my own testing as well. But as soon as you pair up low comp with core 44 or 47 now you have much more loss in performance with the high flex bats and why I now recommend the RT CK with those balls. Anything mid and above will perform well with high flex bats and juiced bats. The ultimate for ball hardness would be 525lbs. paired up with core 40 not 47. I know many balls are paired more with 525lbs. and core 47, but the 47 is not what makes those balls fly so far, it is the compression.

NOTE: A balls COMPRESSION & NOT a balls core is the most important factor!!!! So, a 40 core ball w/ a 525 compression, in 50 degree weather, will "fly" a long way.

Endloaded bats will in all instances make any ball fly farther, but in the case of low compression with core 44 and 47, it may not be enough to overcome the loss in performance that is experienced from the flexibility of the ball.

Outside temperature and the climate you may play in will also effect performance. Cooler temps will keep the ball harder and flying farther. Warmer temps will keep the ball more flexible and mushier.

Also bat weight also factors into hitting a ball for distance. The heavier the bat and the heavier the endload you can swing the better for distance, even and or especially on the mush balls.

I hope this may help some pick the right Bat(s) or Balls; in League or Tournaments.
Not sure who, wrote this information.

T Hi-J

Feb. 8, 2009
zonk
56 posts
THJ: The author of the material in your
post is Craig Opal.
Feb. 8, 2009
Jawood
Men's 50
791 posts
Audieh, on your point #10, I know of no one in favor of the DBO. This rule alone and the economy will reduce the number of teams entered in tournaments this season.
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