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Discussion: if we make hitting good balls with good bats impossible...

Posted	Discussion
Nov. 24 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	We make cheating rebelliously cool and warranted in order to ensure having a good time and not being punked by the other team if they pull them out. I think this is the crux of the bat cheating discussion. Yes, there will always be some cheaters but we don't have to declare war on them and make everyone take up defensive positions wearing war paint. By dumbing down the balls which has been going on for some time now we make bat cheating more prominent. Where is all this talk of bat cheating in senior ball coming from and why? Is there, could there be something to be gained by convincing us that most every one of us is a bat cheater? Hmmmmm. Could there be self interested money issues as "freakin' far out" as that might be, functioning at the core of the issue? Hmmmmm, again. Again, I don't know of one senior player who uses an illegal bat and sometimes hear a sound coming from one when struck that is questionable but not enough to warrant a war unless there's something else to be gained.
Nov. 24 Paco13 424 posts	My friend, we all get Ur point, please move on. Good balls/bat combination are here to stay...too much money involved...Now please have a good thanksgiving and let it go. Businessmen are here to make money either with good balls or bad ones...it is a business. Ur friend the PR Ninja.
Nov. 24 wagon487 Men's 55 578 posts	public relations Ninja? buy my products or else......oh, i get it:)
Nov. 24 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	The one-trick pony can't move on. Must be the dementia.
Nov. 24 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Generally, cheaters cheat as a way of rebeling against authority. These are the same people you see on post office walls or on one of the prison reality shows. They feel inadaquite hitting a Blue Dot ball only 420'. Bottom line is the cheaters will cheat regardless of what bat/ball combo is being used, it will never ne enough. Maybe we can get Bruce out of retirement to show us the 500' shot once again. Its still only one (1) homerun.
Nov. 24 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	well looks like someone has no faith in the senior ball player.i guess someone thinks we will all cheat to get over on our senior brothers,might wanna look in your own backyard first. here are some facts,i'm posting these with the help of someone else,they were emailed to me. DUE 2 ALL of THE ROLLED & PAINTED BATs, THE DIFFERENT SOFTBALL ORGANIZ's, HAVE in THE PAST FEW yrs, CHANGED BALL SPECs. 44 / 400 comp WENT DOWN to 44 / 350-375 comp; SOME as LOW as 250-300 comp. BECAUSE of ALL THE ROLLED & SHAVED BATs, THE DIFFERENT SOFTBALL ORGANIZ's, 4 FEAR of LAW SUITs; DID CHANGE THE BALL SPECs. LAST yr ALONG, THERE WERE 6 LAW SUITs, THAT WERE SETTLED OUT of COURT. EACH SUIT WAS SETTLED 4 OVER $1,000,000. THERE WERE A LEAST 2 BAT & BALL TEST THIS yr. [JUNE & OCT(?)] In THE TEST' PROCESS, THE FOLLOW' BALLs WERE USED: 1)40 cor, 375 comp; 2)44 cor, 375 comp; & 3)THE 52 cor, 275 comp. THE 40 & 44 cor BALLs r EFFECTED by HEAT. THE 52 cor BALL is NOT EFFECTED by HEAT. BATS USED WERE: 1) WORTH 30oz ASA PST; 2)WORTH 30oz ASA MAYHAM & 3) WORTH MAYHAM 30 oz U-TRIP; 4) MIKEN 30 oz U-2. TEST RESULTS (BEST as I CAN REMEMBER):: PLEASE NOTE::: THE BATTERS WERE PLAYERs FROM:: OPEN, A, B, to E. WHEN THE 52 cor BALL WAS HIT, THE BATTED BALL SPEED (BBS) WERE ALL w/ in THE 98 MPH BBS. ONLY in a FEW CASEs (2-3) DID THE BBS EXCEED OVER 98 MPH. EVEN WHEN THE 2-3 TIMEs THAT THE BBS DID EXCEED 98 MPH, THE 10 SWING AVE of THOSE BATTER, WAS STILL UNDER 98 MPH. AGAIN....... REMEMBER...... OPEN, A, B, to E PLAYERS! WHEN THE 40 & 44 cor BALLs WERE USED, THE ASA BATS DID NOT OUT HIT THE U-TRIP BAT. BOTH BATS, DID HIT w/ in 10' of EACH OTHERS. THE U-TRIP BAT, DID HIT MORE BALLs CONSISTANCELY FARTHER. WHEN THE OPEN PLAYER DID SWING THE U-2, ONLY 2-3 TIMEs DID THE BBS EXCEED THE 98 MPH BBS. BUT, WHEN THE U-2 WAS USED by THE LOWER END - E PLAYERs DID THE BBS INCREASED by 20 to 25 MPH. CONCLUSION: U-2s r NOT SHAVED BATs. BUT, U-2s r THE CLOSEST BAT 2 a SHAVED BAT!!! U-TRIP BATs & BATs THAT r HOT, do NOT HELP THE OPEN & A PLAYERs. ROLLED & SHAVED BATs, GREATLY HELP THE LOWER END BALL PLAYERS. THE C, D, & E PLAYERs BBS GREATLY INCREASE WHEN a SHAVED BAT is USED. TIME for MANY to FACE SOME POSSIBLE FACTs???? THE YOUNGER LEAGUE PLAYERs do USE ROLLED oR SHAVED BATs!!!! If, THE ABOVE is NOT soooo, WHO is TELL' THE TRUTH???? BAT COMPANYs? BALL COMPANYs? ASA, ISA, NSA, USSSA, SPA, SS-USA? WHO!!!
Nov. 24 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Dog, what are you reading that I'm not? Something between the lines?
Nov. 24 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	i posted this for a fellow senior baller(the facts part).i know i prolly should of put it in another thread,but posted it here real quick.sorry it's just show ing the diff in bats and balls,with shaved bats being about equal to the ultra's.
Nov. 24 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	The jist of Stoneman's rant is that younger players are using cheater bats. 2 things. That's not the older ones like us and I for one am tired of being called a bat cheater by anyone, especially by folks hawking wares for their manufacturer associates and friends. You need to bust the bat cheaters and not punish everyone for what a small percentage are doing. That never works. And if you don't enforce rules for bat cheaters then that all by itself will encourage more cheating if only to level the playing field. Fundamentally speaking, if you keep players, all players from hitting with good bats and balls you increase the liklihood of cheating. It's the suppression of fundamentally good and desirable drives that ends up creating rebellion and repressive reactions. And where have we heard that before. Now, who would be interested or benefit the most from proceeding in the direction that all players are bat cheaters? Is it possible that anyone is fueling this fire for to their own ends? What are some of the proposed solutions for having too many cheater bats or declaring that we're all cheaters? Might those who wish to sell us balls and bats be interested in the development of this phenomenon? Does the market place promote aggressive behavior forcing participants to invest ahead of time with what/where things are going or "should" go? Is that where the winds of change are coming from, to protect financial interests and investments? All good questions with real answers, too. All to say, we need to get involved and dare to define ourselves, what we expect, need and want so market forces and marketeers don't end up leading us somewhere we may not really want to go. Lively balls/good bats forever. And free defensive subbing is way better solution to player participation than letting everyone bat if, "We play...to win...the game."
Nov. 25 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	Who says old guys don't cheat? People will do what they feel to get an edge. Simiple.
Nov. 25 stick8 1992 posts	It wouldn't suprise me to learn there are cheaters in senior ball. And just for the record cheating is not restricted to shaving bats. At umpire clinics it's been told to us that altering (wacking against a pole, tree, etc) and removing the knob from the inside handle is also cheating. Bat companies can legally prosecute those caught.
Nov. 25 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	stick you also left out endloading a bat,which would prolly be the most common for senior ball.no sense in shaving a thin walled bat,just throw an endload in it.
Nov. 25 Mr. Manassas 244 posts	Look.... the whole situation is set up by all the groups concerned trying to find a bat and ball that everyonee can use to play the game of softball in a fun and safe way. I can't see this thing about balls and bats ever being dealt with in way that is going to make everyone happy....It's not going to happen!!!!!!! It is ashame that people become angry over it!!!
Nov. 25 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts	Another favorite subject of Stoneman is light bats. A light bat will give the batter a faster swing speed. He adovcates banning bats that weigh less than 29 ounces.
Nov. 25 Mr. Manassas 244 posts	Bruce , Are you the Bruce on Southern Slam?
Nov. 25 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts	Yes Mr. Manassas, that would be me.
Nov. 25 Mr. Manassas 244 posts	I have pitched against you guys a couple of times, last week in Fla.(northern Va. force) Ayear ago with Spicers. I think that you beat us up pretty good...Good Team..Are you the coach?
Nov. 25 Wes Men's 65 335 posts	?????for the experts If I were to put a 30-Oz bat on a good set of scales would it weight 30-Oz or would it be 30-Oz +/-???? Could you weight a bat to see if were shaved??? Wes
Nov. 25 Mr. Manassas 244 posts	Wes, I do not believe that would be an effective way to curtail the shaving of bats. It is hard for me to think that in this day and age that a chip implant or a cap system couldn't be used to stop with the tinkering of bats.
Nov. 25 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts	Last week I was on Southern Slam's roster but played Kayson's Grille and my 60 team, Miken/Anaconda Sports. We probably played against each other in the NSA Nationals in Gadsden.
Nov. 25 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts	Wes, very few bats are exactly what the knob reads. Some are an ounce off.
Nov. 25 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts	Mr Manassas, I meant to say I played WITH Kaysons
Nov. 25 Mr. Manassas 244 posts	Did you play with Southern in the Bracket and by the way does a gentleman on Kaysons play by the name of Dave Thornton
Nov. 25 WOW 197 posts	Dirty You sure can be a big shot and a-hole while hiding on line. I would LOVE to see you show up IN PERSON, and have you make your nasty comments face to face. Especially to Joe. You are a first class weenie!
Nov. 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	I'm starting to think that we, senior softball players of America, might be best served by forming our own association across the country instead of asking or challenging TD's and Associations and marketeers to look out for us. I think we might need to look out for ourselves. 20 bucks a head and a website might give us enough of what we need to learn what most of want and need and then deliver that effectively to anyone and everyone else, involved. What do you think?
Nov. 25 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	Nov. 24, 2009 E4/E6 Men's 55 38 posts Dog, what are you reading that I'm not? Something between the lines? also another answer for ya e4/e6 is that with the 52-275 ball it wouldn't matter if someone tried to get over with a cheater bat,as it doesn't hit this ball any better than any other bat. wes as bruce said most bats will weigh a tad more than sticker weight( 1/2-1oz),the only one that i've seen almost dead on is the combat bat.also a doc can add weight to a bat to bring it back to weight,thus making it endloaded.you than have to do a balance check on it to see if its more endloaded than it should be.
Nov. 25 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Hey WOW. I don't take Dirty Gary Sommers seriously, anymore. Nor should anyone else. He's the village idiot that our community is coming to accept as a part of itself. We're all God's children and even butt-holes have a place. I use him as a marker for whatever he's crapping on has got to be something valuable and good. Keep up the good work, Gary. You're doing just fine.
Nov. 25 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	What is the ratio of players using "altered bats" from AA thru Major+? The reports I have seen have been from the "upper" divisions only. Why is that?
Nov. 26 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	WOW, you want to read "nasty comments"? Read the emails he has sent me and others. They are the very definition of nasty, vile, vulgar, filthy, and obscene.
Nov. 26 BruceinGa Men's 70 3233 posts	Mr. M, no, I didn't play in any games at N Collier with the Slam. Don Ward is the coach and yes, Dave plays with Kayson's. He a great hitter and a dedicated softball guy! Sorry for the hijack Joe.
Nov. 26 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Not a think, Bruce. Happy T-Day and see you, Dave and the boys, next year.
Nov. 27 stick8 1992 posts	Right you are Mad Dog. I heard of guys who put bats in a turkey frier which melted the plastic on the inside and then hung them upside down so the plastic would flow down to the end thus end-loading a bat. Illegal
Nov. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Hey Stick, When does it or has it ever made any sense, outside of grammar school, to punish the majority for what a few are doing. Maybe we should ask the board-contributors what they think. But, I must say that using a Turkey Frier to end load a bat is the whackiest, most imaginitive wildest thing I ever heard. Talk about Get 'er done. That's priceless and a real hoot.
Nov. 27 stick8 1992 posts	The turkey frier is a true story Einstein, verified by more than a few people around my parts--this was before shaving came in. The reason they stopped doing that is because if the bat was checked it weighed over an ounce heavier than what the listed weight was--making it illegal. You'd be suprised at what we as umpires are forewarned and told about!! Good question you pose. I guess the old saying "one bad apple ruins it for all" might apply here. On the surface your question would ellicit a "it doesn't make sense" answer. For getting caught using a cheater bat the only punishment I can see for the team would be forfeiting that game and the tourney. What would be your call on punishment for someone & a team if they were caught using a cheater bat?
Nov. 27 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	To punish the entire team is absurd. When George Brett got called out for the illegal pine tar the Royals did not have to forfeit. Neither did the Cubs when Sosa's bat exploded and the cork came flying out. Why should innocent parties be punished? When I am in a car and the driver gets pulled over for speeding, and chances are I knew he was speeding, should I get a citation too? Of course not.
Nov. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	I would have a strong punishment to help deter anyone from thinking about it. Lifetime ban for batter. 2 years for manager and forfeit the game in tournament for the team. You really want to get caught with a cheater bat endangering someone recklessly and possibly destroy your team's chance to win? Go for it.
Nov. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Yet, Stick, I believe the best way for us all of us to deal with bat cheating on all levels is through peer pressure. All of us getting up and policing our game ourselves. I think we could do it. With a little organization like what John from Powerhouse is thinking we could exert real positive pressure on one another and the TD's and the sellers/designers of equipment. A real softball players org could/would do a ton of good on many levels and might be the thing we need before we fragment even further.
Nov. 27 stick8 1992 posts	Interesting thoughts about players policing bat cheaters. At the Utrip level with the kids it's a big problem here in Michigan. Many of us know who the cheaters are but the problem is everyone knows everyone and won't blow the whistle on them--they're all friends. When I ump we do have a rule that specifies if a batter drills a pitcher the bat is automatically taken out & checked by the tourney director. If the TD feels the bat may have been altered in some manner he sends it to the u-trip office and they handle it from there. Starting in 2010 we will have a compression machine on-site and I beleive before tournament games there will be mandatory bat testing. Other than someone asking, I'm not sure what the protocall is for protesting bats in senior ball. Other than trying to gain an advantage are there any other reasons why seniors or the kids would resort to shaving bats?
Nov. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	One reason is to protect players' investment in the tournament. Players who want to win will bring out special bats to insure the field is level assuming others are going to use them. Another is the fundamental reason, Stick and that's not to get cheated after investing real time, money and energy in playing when a shitty ball is being used. NO ONE, hear me, loud and clear Stick and I'll say it again. No one wants to hit with a shitty bat/ball combo and some guys have hot bats to make sure they have a good weekend. Again, the drive to use illegal equipment is to compensate for the downgrading of balls that has been happening in fact, steadily of a couple to 3 years now. If you keep guys from being able to hit a ball well which is intrinsic to the enjoyment of our game than you make cheating more likely. I believe this is at the crux of it and that cheating isn't a natural drive in most to all of us whether it's bat cheating or anything else. What do you think?
Nov. 27 stick8 1992 posts	Interesting point Dirty. I like your analogy using the George Brett pine tar incident. That day I don't necessarily think the Yankees were looking for any suspension, they were looking to get Brett out--which was a tough thing to do back then!! I vividly recall Brett storming out of the dugout all in the umps face, spitting tobacco juice and all!! Correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive that was back in 1980? And if I recall they suspended that game and finished it at a later date? Wasn't Billy Martin the Yankee manager?
Nov. 27 stick8 1992 posts	Appreciate your passion on this subject Einstein. IMHO, I beleive many bat cheaters aren't the best hitters without their bats and cheat because they can't keep up. They act tlike they're stud .800 hitters when in reality their lucky if they hit .500. I will say some cheat with the idea of "you don't bring a knife to a gun fight". Or they'll say something like "I don't hit the middle". None of which is an excuse for cheating. If they made bats without end caps that would go a long way to deterring cheating!!
Nov. 27 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	If one of my team mates were using an altered bat, I believe its myduty/responcibility to protect my manager and other team mates. I would approach the offending player, ask him to put his altered bat in his bag and not to bring it out again. There have to be consequences for anyone known to cheat, whether they are openly caught or not.
Nov. 27 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts	Stick8, Yes Billy was the manager and yes they played at a later date and reversed the call on the bat. Joe you are once again trying to use the illegal bat for YOUR ball issue. Illegal bats have been around for years. In the 1970 there were no thin handled bats so some guys took them to machine shops and had the handles turned down. Some of the very good hitters in the 1980's were using bats 35" and 36" long. So for you to say it's because of shitty balls it causes bat tampering is not true. We were using some of the best balls back then that have ever been made. Just my thoughts.
Nov. 27 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Joe I believe you do have our best interests at heart, but are a bit miss guided by whats going on between you and Trump/Kevin, whatever that may be. The constant referrals to companies ruining our game is an old arguement. If we dont want our game changed its up to us to not buy their products. Plain and simple. Yes we all play to win, but not at any price, winning or loosing isnt the end of the world. It only stings until the next base hit, regardless of howt hard or softly the ball hits the ground in fair play. Dont get me wrong, I love to win more then loosing, but the sun will still come up and darkness will fall. And you can damn well bet we will all be playing ball.
Nov. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	What terrific comments. It's not my ball issue. It's our ball issue. E4/E6, I love your screen name. There's nothing going on between me and Kevin from my end other than the aftermath of a pissing match on line. The comments I make about bats and balls and manufacturers and TD's are global and true. Kevin is a business doing what he's supposed to be doing and that is selling and protecting his corporate interests. I've always said this is the case and that he and I do disagree about what seniors want or should want, need or will need going forward. That's not a crime for either one of us. And should be done respectfully and without malice of any kind from either side. I'm done with it. I hope Kevin is, too so we can all move down the road better together as I have said numerous times. Lastly, I don't think we'll all be playing ball if we end up with a compromised ball. Hitting a ball hard and well IS INTRINSIC, a one to one correlation to the positive softball experience. NorCal has shown me that showing up in any case is not, in fact, what seniors do. We show up because we know we're going to have a good time because the game is defined by us and for us including bat/ball combo, HR's as singles, equalizer and 5 run innings so we can have real fun. Trust me on this or ask NorCal guys if local TD's don't give us what we want, we don't attend the tournaments. You can disagree with me all you want as long as we maintain personal respect with/for each other and we should find a way eventually to work things out or part company with dignity.
Nov. 27 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	butch, if you noticed he was also trying to use the illegal bat to push his union issue. Weird, just very weird. I feel really bad for him and his bizarre need for souped up bats and balls to have fun. Heck, let's play with wood. If we win, it is fun. If we lose, it isn't. That is why the score is kept.
Nov. 27 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	That's OK you feel that way, Gary. I have lots of friends who are terrific ball players who like wooden bat tournaments. But there's nothing wrong with us for wanting/liking 1.2 bats/good ball tournaments either. You can disagree all you want as long as you're respectful. That's what we're all saying to you.
Nov. 27 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Joe you have a legitmate idea about the ball/bat issue. Maybe there should be tournaments for the hot Ball/Bat like there are for wooden bats. See how they go over, if they become popular then make the move universally. Lets see if the majority really do care either way. I do disagree with your thought that the Game is defined by us. Not true, the game is there FOR us. Never lose your idenity Joe and keep your ideas flowing. Good or bad, they make us think, and thats a good thing! Boonierat1@aol.com
Nov. 27 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	butch also remember they were putting 5-8 oz endloads in thier bats also back then. we have brought all this on our selves(the lowering of ball specs)due to our soceity being sue happy.insurance companys have been after assoc's to make the game safer,or pay real high ins fees to stay in business.this leads to the birth of the cheater to get over b/c he can't be a 400' hero now. with the 52-275 ball all of that si done away with b/c no bat will hit it any better than another(cheater or otherwise).with this ball the hr hitters will still be able to hit thier hr's and the base hitterswill be back to normal.we also will see a rise on the defensive end also.
Nov. 28 stick8 1992 posts	E4/E6, do you think the old Vince Lombardi quote of "it doesn't matter if you win or lose until you lose" mentality is losing it's luster these days?
Nov. 28 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts	stick8, All I know is the ride home seems to be a lot better when you win. lol
Nov. 28 stick8 1992 posts	Very true butch17!! I recall many more unhappy rides home than happy ones but next tournament we were always back at it. Losing games can tell a lot about the character of a team. Winning is easy to handle but losing can take many dimensions. I've seen losing teams go off on each other--even to the point of fighting!! I've seen them go separate ways. I've seen them hang together and try to gut it out. What would be the best ways for a team that's in a losing streak to snap out of it?
Nov. 28 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Stick, dont misinterpret my meaning, I like winning as much as the next guy, but I can live with losing to. If you recall, Vince Lombardi and his boys were doing something we for the most part, arent. Getting paid. My girlfriend puts it like this, she told me I am 10 going on 60, (only now I am going on 62). I play because I love to play and I love the game, winning is a bonus, and Losing is part of playing. Butch, you are absolutely right, that ride home isnt nearly as much fun when you lose, at least not until you find that Ice Cream Parlor.
Nov. 28 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	When I first got back into Slo Pitch, we went 0/15, did we like it? Of course not, but we continued to laugh and have fun. WE realized its just a game, an avenue to release our daily adult pressures and stress. Have you ever flashed back to little league or pony league, high school ball while on the field? I do it now and then, remembering the plays I did or didnt make or looking at the contrail of the plane flying overhead. We wanted to win at any cost. But once that game was over we were looking for another game. Looking for..........more fun!
Nov. 28 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	e4/e6,oh yeah mmmm ice cream.LOL my gal asks me why i don't get all upset with a loss like some of my teammates do.i tell her its just a game and we are not getting paid to do it. she has heard from other spouses that they are gonna regret the ride home if we loose.
Nov. 28 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Dog thats the attitude, hell my arteries are hardening enough on their own without me adding to there plight with more bad stress. Life is all about balance, ying & yang (who are those guys anyway? oh well) winning and losing. etc.
Nov. 28 Lecak Men's 60 1026 posts	Stick the best way for a team to break out of a slump the good old fashioned slump buster someone would take one for the team.
Nov. 28 stick8 1992 posts	E4/E6 you touch on something important. I believe we all have dealt with losing tough games and team slumps but I've long felt how you come out of it is what's important. I'm like anyone else in that I can have a few cold ones and humbly reflect on the games of the day. You may think what I'm about to post to be odd but I've long felt that there is nothing wrong with being a sore loser. Now that does not mean acting like a jerk on the field or starting a rift towards the other teams!! But instead learning why your team lost, going out and practicing harder, working on your game, maybe hitting the gym--doing the little things so next time you'll get the W. Do you find that senior players accept losing moreso than the kids?
Nov. 28 stick8 1992 posts	Joe, you are the man!! Can you illustrate how one would "take one for the team" in softball?
Nov. 28 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Robert. You're a well defined advocate of the 52x375 ball that was soundly panned by the great majority of players in a 5 senior team event in California as not good or fun enough to use. That's OK because I can champion causes that don't have popular support, too but underlying the lack of support by seniors for that ball is the idea that hitting a ball hard and well is intrinsic to the positive experience of playing softball. It doesn't matter if we use wooden bats and hot balls, the combo has to be lively and good or the majority of hitters will not enjoy themselves. We can disagree respectfully but we really do disagree. Cheaters need to be exposed, admonished and punished when caught and not have our entire game changed because we can't/won't stand up to them and for ourselves. No wonder marketeers and TD's see an opportunity to aggrandize their interests thinking that we seniors are push overs and will roll with anything. I say we really do care about ourselves and our game and will stand up and do the right thing eventually when we/it are threatened. I think the time to organize for the best interests of ourselves and the game is at hand, too.
Nov. 28 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Sorry that was 52x275 ball not 52x375...
Nov. 28 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	"Cheaters need to be exposed, admonished and punished when caught and not have our entire game changed because we can't/won't stand up to them and for ourselves." Okay guys, be ready for a shock. I like this statement.
Nov. 28 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	JOE PULL FROM YOUR POST: idea that hitting a ball hard and well is intrinsic to the positive experience of playing softball. where is that so,you don't play ASA or any assoc that doesn't allow senior bats,if not your missing a good game,they play defense,they base hit to move people along,kinda like the old days ,can you remember that. so instead of playing a safer game,you would rather see fee's go up,as insurance will definately go as people will get hurt. if you want to keep the good ball,why don't you champion for the ASA bat spec's,as they are more than enough to use.i play it here with the 44-375 mct ball and love it. and before you say it about cheaters,no cheaters should be in senior ball as you have already said that there is less than 5% max.
Nov. 28 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts	I think I have figured out einstein’s concern and I think I might agree with him. He states that “the combo has to be lively and good or the majority of hitters will not enjoy themselves”. I think the answer is in the definition of the “hitter.” By that term, I think einstein really means those who can hit the ball over the fence (whether 280, 300, 350, 400+ or not). This definition of hitter squares with his concerns about making home runs outs and his oft stated opinion that if “hitters” can not go over the fence because the next home run is an out, they will go up the middle. Despite his occasional mention of dinkers and line drive batters, he really means “home run hitters” when he uses the term hitter. And maybe the majority of them would not like to lose this source of joy. But to me that is such a narrow view of softball. I play on a major team. We have two home run hitters (I’m one) and neither of us would stop playing if home runs become more difficult. In fact, we would appreciate a safer ball for the sake of fielders, especially pitchers. Our “hitters” would never think of missing a tournament because of a less lively ball. Before that, I played on a AAA team. We had three “hitters” (again including me). It would make no difference to me or to one of the others, since we miss the defense and base running and strategy that makes softball a complete sport. The other hitter would likely miss his long ball, but I can’t imagine he would ever skip a tournament or complain about a softer ball since his main joy is the team camaraderie. Before that, I played on another AAA team. We had two “hitters”. Neither of us would even consider boycotting or not playing because of dead balls or ASA bats. In my experience with these three teams, einstein is way off base, and since most AAA teams, and many major teams have very few “hitters”, I think it is extremely unlikely that any change in standards to make the game safer or slow down home run derbies would cause any talk of boycotts, complaints, etc. But maybe for major+, or for hot 50s teams, it is an issue. But even if such teams had a majority of “hitters”, I doubt if all of the home run hitters would say the game is no longer enjoyable just because it returned to the joyous games of yesteryear with a balanced emphasis on offense, defense, and strategy.
Nov. 29 MaverickAH 58 posts	I think that there is a good bit of, "fear mongering" going on here. I think that one thing that is being overlooked here is human nature. You don't turn 50, wake up the next day & suddenly decide to cheat! Odds are if you are cheating at senior ball you were cheating prior to senior ball. I've known & played with some guys for over 20 years & on the whole, those of questionable character when I first met them are still of questionable character. THESE are the players who will cheat! That seniors currently use hotter bats have no bearing on them. They will still shave senior bats. They will shave whatever bat hey use. I agree with both MD & OK. Bring in a bat/ball standard that bring balance back to the game. The current bat standard needs to be toned down.
Nov. 29 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts	stick8, I believe you must pull through the slump as a team. It is a team sport so you win as a team and lose as a team. Maybe a team talk after the tourney as hopefully you are friends as well as teamates. Anyone knows it is all about the team hell even the " king and his court" needed more than just the king. Put that in for you Joe.:)
Nov. 29 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	OMAR,DING DING A WINNER WITH THAT POST. MAV, THAT WOULD MAKE THE AVG PLAYER AVG AGAIN. hi butch hows the weather there,nice here.LOL
Nov. 29 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts	mad dog, Raining here in the 50's rub it in my friend
Nov. 29 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts	Did get to go in the woods and cut a little fire wood for when it gets cold.
Nov. 29 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	OK. You're last point on my point provides the acid test. Practiced home run hitters are only a couple of per cent as are true dinkers. Together they hardly form a majority. Neither of these groups will be affected by going to crappy balls or a poor bat/ball combo. But the great majority of players in the middle will. If you can't hit a ball dead center or hard and have it go fast and hard somewhere, you lose the ability to control or direct where it should go in order to get on base. You don't get enough reliable pace on the ball to get it to and through where it won't get caught. If you have gifted eye/hand coordination than you might be able to adjust but AND HERE IT COMES, for the great majority of players/hitters in senior ball having a lively bat/ball combo is central to hitting well enough to want to continue to invest in playing the game. For me this is obvious because I've never met a player who wants to play or would prefer to play with a poorly performing ball. And I'm not talking about rocket balls and bats. The argument to use a dumber ball is one that only champions the few and not the many of senior ball. It's also championed by those who want to sell us their new equipment with their supporters and friends. Nothing can change the fact that, for the majority of senior players, a lively bat/ball combo is critical to the positive experience of playing competitive senior softball. Always has and always will be.
Nov. 29 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	well stay safe and warm.hope to run into you next yr.
Nov. 29 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Joe you make it sound like we will be playing Punkin Ball again. As I recall we did pretty well before the Senior Bats came along, the 44/375 has been a standard for how long? It has always played well with whatever bat we brought with us. I just dont see any of what you are advocating as being beneficial to Senior Ball. As a matter of fact, as we age we will need to slow things down some. Who wants to watch as balls fly past us at the same rate they are now? With little or no chance of making a play.
Nov. 30 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts	Omar, I think you have hit the nail on the head with loving the game. I have played for 41 years now and watched it go from a game where the homerun hitter was fairly rare, as we really had just a piece of metal to hit with (the Howards bats, Steele's bats, the Brown 38 oz Louisville I swung for years, etc.) and fairly soft balls. Then they came up with livelier balls, first the Blue Dots that lasted for several games and were harder than we had been playing with, the T4000, Hot Dots, etc. that flew almost like the balls today because they were so hard, and then the much softer 'Gold dot" that really cut down the HR's from what they were. Then bats got better. The first hot bat I remember was the Demarini CU31 and the C405 single walls. Then came the double walls which got better the more you dented them and rounded them out, and then the titanium-which got banned quickly. I hit with a titanium and I don't think they were as hot as the U2. Now we have the composites and, even though I was always considered a power hitter, it is easier to hit one out now than it was with the hot balls. Even in my prime, I did not hit 400 foot shots like I do now. I do agree the game needs to slow down some and it will. It does seem to be a cyclical thing. Through all of the changes I never considered quitting because I didn't like the rules and I won't quit until I physically have to.
Nov. 30 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Why do guys continue to golf who's scores will never really get better? Because they hit a couple of shots that were great or that "felt real good" and this can't be underestimated E. A drive, that feels good and goes real well, one of 'em, is enough to stoke the passion and reinforce the idea that this can be done and could be real fun. When a tournament of 20 team is over and there's only one winner it means the other 19 are losers. What makes them want to continue to come back and play/try again? They hit a couple of bombs, ripped a couple of shots that shows it can be done and they're not really that bad. If you play restricted flight with an powerful team you will never beat them. Make the ball lively enough and we might, just could do it. And everybody knows it, too. I believe you guys who are "correct" about the game don't get how much fun hitting a ball is and how much hope and true joy it can bring the most of us who play the game. I've seen it, heard it over and over again when the balls are good and I've heard the whining and wondering and deep disappointment when it's just too frustrating.
Nov. 30 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Even if it's an illusion from being able to hit a lively ball well that a lesser team can beat a better team is that such a bad thing? Doesn't it keep guys coming back and investing in the sport? Don't we want 'em thinking that the next time we play the Mavericks we're gonna kick their asses? One or two more hits and we got'em on the ropes? Hitting with lively balls/bats brings out the potential and possibilities inherent in competition and performance in a way that should NEVER be underestimated by players, TD's and marketeers. Can a righteous brother get an Amen?
Nov. 30 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	well here we go again,where is it said that an avg player should be hitting hr's and such.it never was when we were younger,we bp'd and hit till we dropped to make oursleves better.why should we be able just buy a bat to be a hr hitter,or use a ball so hot that it will go out with any swing,just make some contact. as i've told you,if you hit a ball dead center,its not going out,it will knuckle.you need to get some backspin on it,for carry.
Nov. 30 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Average is a relative term, Robert and depends on the high/low values of the continuum for it's specific meaning. If you want me to explain what I mean regarding this and senior softball hitters I will be happy to, on another post. Being able to hit a ball through gaps and to places where no one will get it have nothing to do with hitting HRs but it we go to the "safer" ball a la 2009 regular hitters will suffer inordinately and will not want to invest down the road in a less enjoyable experience. This is what TD's and marketeers need to wrap their heads around. Seniors won't just roll over for any changes as a lot suspect. As we're recognized and focused we're 60's guys who know what being defined means and what to do when we're not being represented correctly. Examples are LVSSA and NCSSA for proof.
Nov. 30 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	and the important 3rd example is the reaction that the great majority of senior players had to experimenting with the 275 x 52 ball in California earlier this year.
Nov. 30 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	i consider myself a regular hitter and i'm not afraid of using the 52-275 ball.if your a regular hitter were is it that they have to be hitting the hr,or gaps regularly,you shouldn't be.you really want to see somone die or be really hurt seriously.what happens if it is you who does it,are you gonna brag on how hard you hit the ball. like i said before if you want the hotter ball we need to get rid of senior bats.one or the other has to go.
Nov. 30 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	I agree, Robert. We don't need rocket balls if we don't use screens or some other effective form of protection but we do need lively ones. I've always said and you can check the record that we shouldn't go below a standard of liveliness that is necessary to enjoy the game. Good single wall bats and new Blue Dot balls as I remember were good enough to hit a ball well and hard and have real fun. Some of the 44x375 balls we've hit over the last couple of years fall well below that line. Normal 44x375 balls in high heat fall well below that line. From the reaction that almost all the seniors who attended the special 5 team event in California earlier this year to test the 52 x 275 ball so does this version of a "safe" ball. It's not lively, Robert, but how lively the bat ball combo needs to be is the key question. We have to make sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water and move to a dissatisfying experience for most seniors. Maybe making a hotter version of the "safe" ball might be better as I have said before. But the one at present is not only not acceptable to most seniors it's not fun enough for most to hit. That's what I saw, experienced and was told by a great many senior players. Don't kill the messenger, Robert. We're just talking about what we think is happening and what's best for seniors. Certainly not a crime then, now or ever, let's all hope.
Nov. 30 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts	Einstein, you have just proved my point. Your measurement of a hitter is someone who can hit the long ball over the fence. Your definition of “feeling real good” is hitting the bomb. The lively bat/ball combo you desire is all oriented to the power hitter who can “equalize” things when lots and lots of balls can clear the fences (either with Ultra II bats or lively balls or both). I’m saying that many, many players get their satisfaction from other aspects of the sport, not just the fence-clearer. Back in the day when I was a singles hitter, I was inspired by the occasional double, or the even rarer triple. Yeah, it felt good and made me want to repeat it the next game, but I never had the illusion that I was a home runner hitter and thus I wasn’t discouraged by the lack of a long ball. I went decades without hitting a single home run! I was motivated to do my best and play again and again by my team rallying from behind; by a good catch that I wouldn’t usually make; by shutting down a hot team with accurate pitching, by going first to third on a short single and later scoring; by seeing a teammate make a great throw; etc. I would have quit years ago if my motivation and satisfaction was only based on home runs. I never hit a home run until I got my first Miken. Scrawny little me, putting one over the fence! Did I like it? Yes. Did it motivate me to try it again? Yes. Would I argue in favor of a return to single wall bats? Yes. I would gladly give up my Miken for the improved safety, the honor due a REAL home run hitter, the value of a good outfielder who had balls to chase and catch, the sparkling infield play, the need for thinking and strategy, the desire to keep my legs in shape for base running, etc. Since most senior players have not been and are not now true long ball hitters, I think the majority does not need the lively bat/ball combo to feel good about themselves and the game. In fact, the lively current conditions only cheapen the home run when a guy like me can put one out. Lets play real softball, not home run derby.
Nov. 30 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Let's be clear, OK. We disagree if you say that most players and hitters won't be disadvantaged by going to lesser balls. Again, I have NEVER met a player who wants to hit a compromised, lesser, crappy ball. Not one. No maybe you'd be the first if I was ever to meet you which is hard because you don't say who you are though I have an idea of who you might be. And, it might be interesting to think of alternatives or fashionable to go along with the current "march" to a safer ball but no player, OK wants to hit a less than lively ball and hotter means more fun, for the MOST of us. If you disagree than we disagree and that's not a crime, now or ever.
Nov. 30 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	maybe all the hitters will say they want to hit the hot ball,what about the fielders who have to try and field the rockets flying by them,what do they say.why not do both sides of the story. also i don't think you have talked to the majority of senior softballers to actually know what they want,your just pushing your agenda.you prolly have maybe talked to a 100-200 maybe, less than 1%. your talk of the test tourney involved 5 teams,that is not a good representation of all the teams that play,i would say less than 1%. you do know a majority consists of 51%.
Nov. 30 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts	I will say Joe I have as much fun playing ASA, USSSA, NSA as I do playing SS/USA, ISA, SPA, LVSSA. You know why? I just love to play softball and compete. In my opinion some one that doesn't play in the first three because of balls and bats are not die hard softball players they are ME players.
Nov. 30 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Robert, the more you/we talk the clearer it will get to all where you/we're coming from. And I'm cool with that. We really disagree if, in fact that is what you truly believe and not just hustling for someone else to curry favor or to back your friends. You say that: -most everyone is cheating and I don't agree -the game is too unsafe to enjoy and many studies don't support that -safety is the key issue we all should be concerned about when making a decision about our game and even Nancy says the game has to be meaningfully risky to enjoy -lesser balls will make our game more fun to most of the players and I've never talked with one player in all the years I've been playing since sandlot who wants to or likes playing with a ball that doesn't hit well. It's not a crime to disagree and the longer we talk the clearer our positions will become and the more seniors can have/take an opinion on what they think they want and what in fact, is reflective of them and is truly going on. Debate is/can be a very useful tool to any community. But if in fact we get boring to for others or you wish to continue call or email me, anytime.
Nov. 30 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	It's OK Butch. Only one of us is right about what most senior if not any softball player truly wants and our comrades and readers can figure it out for themselves. Let's help them and be clear. We really do disagree about what's best for senior ball and what senior players, the most of them care about or prefer regarding a lively bat/ball combo.
Nov. 30 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	I would like to see the results of your poll, showing me that a majority of the 15K + Seniors in the USA want livlier ball/bats. In Vegas there were 8 teams in our division, roughly 105 Senior Players. In 3 days of competition I never heard one word about the choice of bats and balls. Or even a discussion of such. I love our game, hot, cold, soft, hard. I will play with a grapefruit and Pine Tree branch if that what we have. If I were a betting man, I would bet that if there is a choice of The Majority, it would be to play regardless of the balls & bats offered.
Nov. 30 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts	I have to agree with E4/E6. If we are talking about majority of players at all ages and divisions my money would be on them saying play ball regardless of the bats and balls. Yes I know 51% is a majority. lol
Nov. 30 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Joe as you generally do, there are more good points then bad. I'm not sure you will ever get enough Seniors to read your thoughts on this site to help the cause.
Nov. 30 butch17 Men's 55 412 posts	We have had 1035 hits on this post and less than 20 have responded in any way good, bad, or indifferent. That to me confirms the players really don't care one way or the other about bats and balls.
Nov. 30 Wes Men's 65 335 posts	einstein???????????????? What makes a ball go bas in the heat???? Cover windings the core or all the above Wes
Nov. 30 Wes Men's 65 335 posts	What makes a ball go bad????
Nov. 30 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	wes all of the above,mostly the core tho. joe where i have i been saying that most players are cheats,your the one that says that will happen if we go to a ball that won't hit good.don't be putting words on here for me. where are your studies on injuries,i say the ball is dangerous and if hit by it there will be serious injury,those studies have been done. and lastly why do you keep insisting i'm hustling for someone.i have nothing to do with any sales of any company,please get that thru your head. i have hit the ball i feel will make our game safer and saner to play,i'm sorry you won't be a hr hero if it does happen that we go to this ball.i'll still get my hits as i don't go looking to just unload all the time on the ball.i take time to look at the D and where i should hit the ball.
Dec. 1 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts	I don't totally understand why the debate has to be around a different ball. Maybe it is naive to think the bat manufacturers might consider it because I know the 'bucks rule' as far as bat manufacturers, but I remember the titanium coming out and being banned. Why can't they back off the liveliness of the bat by-say-5% to 10% and use a good ball. Also, maybe go back to a much smaller sweet spot. Yes, the bats might even last longer(I've gone through 3 this year). Or is the genie so far out of the bottle that players will not accept a less lively bat? Or should we just go to soft rubber balls so nobody gets hurt?
Dec. 1 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Webbie, you're in danger of being naive if you don't get how much money making is at the bottom of lots of what goes on in this society not least of which is senior softball. Lively balls and good bats, forever. Everything else is ignorant, self-serving or somebody trying to sell us something. I'm either right that we all want and it's in our best interests to have a lively bat/ball combo or I'm wrong about the majority of senior players and Butch/E4, only a minority of guys post on this site but a greater percentage read, think and talk about what's going on and what makes the most sense. I wouldn't underestimate the power of the word, the truth or the buzz about anything important going on in any society. The truth is irresistible and spreads like wild fire and the people/players are starting to listen and wake up and will make their own judgments. Webbie, the bat/ball combo is in danger of being driven down well below lively if we're not vigilant or careful. This is and will be a huge issue that will affect the game I love to play for the worse I do believe.
Dec. 1 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Socialization of Senior Softball is on Obamas agenda. Joe so far all I have read is your opinion on this issue. I like many here wont take a stand until I know the facts. Please convince me Joe, I am open to evidence that backs up your stand. However that evidence must be concrete. Standing on this fence is quite the balancing act.
Dec. 1 taits Men's 65 4548 posts	One could just as easily ask "Why did Assn XXX stop using the 47\525 balls?" It's a vicious cycle. Both Bat and Ball manufacturers are trying to sell, sell, SELL their products at what ever cost, after all, it is their lively hood. Hype selling, truthful or not, akin to the "tire kickers" out to "buy" a new or different car. As for the Ti bats, I've had 3, all were no where near as good as the new composites we now have. And that is with a ti using red\blue dots to the 44\375's and comps bats with both balls.
Dec. 1 tattooball 774 posts	Taits, Very good and truthful post. Ti bats were banned because of safty. No one complained about it because there was a huge difference in performance over a single wall bat. Then the double wall bats came along. The associations were sued to make them legal and they came up with a performance test on bats, the problem with that was the test was easily defeated by the bat companies. I owned a bat company at the time of this. So the next logical thing to do was change the ball to control the bats, and they did. Now years later with the introduction of composites it made getting by the test very easy to do. As you said the bats of today surpass the performance of a Ti bat that was banned by all of the associations, and still pass the test. The second thing is that every new composite bat gets better every swing you take with it, and continues to surpass all of the test standards as it get older. One the the big manufactures said to me recently " how in the hell did we get a bat legal that no one can control the performance of?" Good question. Now the associations are looking for a way to control the bats and give the game of softball some integrity. The bats have been improving since 1982 and the balls have been getting less in performance since 1988, there will be more changes as sure as you will be a day older tomorrow. The players don't want to give up the bats so the associations will change the ball. It is easier and far cheaper to change a ball than have everyone buy new bats. As Omar said he didn't hit a homerun til he started playing senior ball. Do you think he is a better athelete at 50 ,the he was at 30 or 40? The problem was and still is that the bat companies continue to make bats better and the associations are trying to find ways to control the game.
Dec. 1 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts	I know it's megabucks, but they build cars that can go 200 mph, but put speed limits on them on the road. Getting a less lively ball that stays consistent seems much more difficult than restricting the bats. Maybe we need to invent a light weight one piece suit with armor for pitchers to slip into when they pitch, back the fences up to 340,put in a good ball, put a 5th outfielder out there to cover the wide open spaces and have at it? Hard to talk with my tongue so firmly lodged in my cheek.
Dec. 1 tattooball 774 posts	Weebie, go for it. If you can do it I am sure they will listen to you.
Dec. 1 Wes Men's 65 335 posts	The bat problem might take care of itself when someone hurts a pitcher and the pitcher takes the batter to court and they find out he was using a altered bat and the pitcher now owns the batters house-car and his 401K Wes
Dec. 1 Wes Men's 65 335 posts	einstein--- I was looking at the rules for the Senior Games---If I read it right it says-- that a defensive player may enter the game at any time--is this not what you taking about????? wes
Dec. 1 taits Men's 65 4548 posts	Trumpball, Thank you. I try to only post stuff i can at the time back up. Not in any order but I actually hit many more hr's in my 50's or younger, and was in much better shape as well. On the getting hotter I'd agree to that but there is also the point of diminishing returns within the composites. Great example was\is the Decker Jump bat. Was fair bat then got much better (broke in) some areas turned red... close to a hot bat type, then it cracked...I tested them 3-4 weights. Still have my last one that's almost L shaped and another with about 5 hits on it. Personally, I like the good balls, but could live with most any light 26 oz bat, (makeup\type, ie; wood, metal, comp, what ever) that way. Too many "things" are constantly changing to have the game anywhere close to what we really had in our youth. Some are good some questionable and others not at all IMO. Have a great end of year bottom line and Happy Holidays. Thanks again.
Dec. 1 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts	I'll march right over with my huge 2 cents worth!!! I am working on a suit at this very moment-lightweight space age material, indestructo (CR) lightweight armor to withstand the force of a softball travelling at 160 mph to cover the face (transparent), neck, torso, private parts armor reinforced and enlarged to cover the massive egos, and legs. No more problems going up the middle. We could even make the bats hotter so we can hit the ball 600 feet. Imagine the thrill of hitting a ball 2 football fields!!! Infielders could wear the armor, too. It will only weigh 3.4 lbs, so everybody could wear it. There would be only one thing to worry about---now the fielders gloves would have to be reinforced.(Might hurt your hand). All this sound silly??? To be honest, in 1980, if anyone had come up with the scenario that we actually have now, they would have been laughed at. I don't really know what the best answer is, but I sure have seen some very close calls, including an inadvertant line drive I hit past a pitchers head this year that he did not react to until it was in center. Scared me to the point of advocating a somewhat slower game. How would any of us feel if we were the one who hit that one line drive that killed a pitcher?
Dec. 1 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Where there's fear and fear mongering there's always the propensity to go too far in the right direction. It's so easy to move the masses of any society by making them afraid. I broke both arms and had my face split open by softballs in the last 2 years but they were all my fault from not getting ready to field my position and I favor no real changes that will take away the fun of hitting lively balls with good bats. Gary Sommers says pitchers should get in better shape and be ready to field their position and Nancy says the game has to be meaningfully dangerous to be the same game we love to play. All to say, we need to move CAREFULLY and well through this period of adjustment not overreact regardless of what's being pushed or sold to us by anyone and think about what's most important to our game to keep it as much fun and as safe as we can as we all move forward together. I will live and die believing that seniors if not all players want to and will enjoy softball better with a lively bat/ball combo. There's many ways of insuring safety for pitchers on a field and we need not get locked into one mode more than another till we're reasonably sure we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Look at the irony of Bill Ruth getting smooshed by a ball after his association went with HR's as out and an absurd PPR rule. Had real players been asked and polled in significant numbers it would have been discovered this combination of conditions not only doesn't protect pitchers but as in Bill's case makes them more vulnerable to injury. We all belong on senior ball. Manufacturers, TD's, players and Associations and we must all ask and share info and look for common ground and majority opinions and not move unilaterally in any direction regardless of the affect, specific interest or profits involved. As we all share in the phenomenon of senior softball we all have the responsibility to work with and assist one another as much as possible so we can all move down the road better together.
Dec. 1 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	And Kevin, DeMarini became a distance hitter later in his career, didn't he? Bogie, Rick Perez, Waldyte, Joe Tang all teach guys like me how to maximize leverage and strength to hit the ball farther and better as we get older. Are you saying this is impossible or impertinent or shouldn't be taught and learned? There's a lot of bought and sold videos and guys like me who would say it's never to late to learn and guess what? Chicks really DO dig the long ball. Babe Ruth said if he went to hitting singles and doubles he would have batted .650. What does that say about the power, prowess and seduction of the long ball. Who wouldn't want to hit a ball out of the park, if they could? So, guys being able to hit shots in their fifties they couldn't do in their 30's and 40's shouldn't be that tough to understand. Bogie and his fabulous videos point out that it's never too late to learn to hit the ball hard and far and never does it become less fun to do so.
Dec. 1 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	Joe, when you are right you are right.
Dec. 1 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts	Einstein, sure guys can become power hitters in their older age with changing their stroke and technique, power lifting, personal instruction. But that's not me...nor any other now blooming home run hitter I know. In the last eight years of the composite, the guys like me who have blossomed into power hitters have the same swing, same ball (if not softer), have often gained weight, slower reflexes, less muscle mass, etc. We hit them out because the composite bat is so much hotter! How ridiculous! Of course it is fun to homer, but the price paid in defense, safety, strategy, base running, etc. is not worth it in my opinion. I'm one of those who wants to go back to the single wall and am willing to give up my unearned power for love of the game I played for 50 years when offense did not overwhelm defense.
Dec. 2 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	OK or B, Then as now you are entitled to your opinion and it's a good one. We seem to be arguing in the extremes of rocket balls versus sock balls. The real argument comes more into being with how lively or how socklike is good enough to thoroughly enjoy. Hitting a ball hard an well is intrinsic to playing softball. Lively balls and good bats are the only way to go. You can argue rocket balls without adequate safety measures of which there are a great many that would work, shouldn't be used for seniors but lively balls and bats have to be. C'mon, B. I'm convinced that MOST players of any age and expertise want to hit with a lively bat and ball combo, aren't you?
Dec. 2 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts	Can we again agree that the Trump Stote is sufficient and we don't really need the Trump Rock? That is, provided that sufficient care is taken in very hot tournaments to keep the Stote out of extreme heat before the games.
Dec. 2 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	I think the Trump Stote ball is a good ball when it doesn't get very hot as many other players do, too. The Baden Fire ball we tested last week in Concord seemed lively and good, too. If keeping ball like these cool will keep them lively enough in the high heat, great. It seems like they would work fine unless other standards in the making the balls or practices in their manufacturing changes. With meaningful standards and safety measures in place, like in 5 run innings no PPR and HR's as singles, it's OK to hit hotter balls like the Trump Rock, too, just like in LVSSA. Remember, no one was hurt inordinately and a good time was had by all and that wasn't an accident.
Dec. 2 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts	I agree I believe the Trump Stote is a good ball and should be used. Hopefully SSUSA will not change this. I think LVSSA will probably stay with the Rock. I will go on record though and state that I have not seen a pitcher who has the reflexes in Major Plus yet, who could defend a line drive at their head that can be hit by a dozen or so power hitters in Major Plus when the Rock is used. I believe it is a problem waiting to happen. When you say you lost your focus on the mound on 3 occassions during games and on the those 3 occasions had both arms broke and I can't remember what else you hurt, you took the blame for those injuries. I was wondering , if you remember, what ball was used? I wonder also how many pitchers lose their focus for an instant. I haven't seen you play but I have been told you have good reflexes. In fact, when you play third base, when not on the mound, you play inside the bag. Something doesn't make sense to me. I know one of the guys who hit one of the balls that broke your arm usually goes middle and you know that. How did you lose your focus? Is it possible that he can hit a ball so hard that sometimes it can't be defended by a pitcher? I honestly don't know.
Dec. 2 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	Very good questions and thoughts. Thanks for engaging me. I had turned sideways when Clatta hit his ball at me. I thought he was going to hit it into right field hard and/or deep and I wanted to watch it. Duhhhhhh, me. The other two came from me just learning how to pitch and being more concerned like a rookie might at watching the pitch and where it landed than getting ready to field the position. Veteran pitchers as I'm sure Dog knows get ready to play defense the second they release the ball. I've got it together now and no ball hit in the air at me will get to my body before I can get my glove on it if I'm paying attention, And as Gary says if you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen.
Dec. 2 Bob50 Men's 60 242 posts	That's funny Joe--turned sideways in order to watch it. Honest mistake. You sound like a warrior. Stay healthy.

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Discussion: if we make hitting good balls with good bats impossible...

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