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Discussion: Senior bats and Lively Balls?

Posted Discussion
May 27, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Senior bats and Lively Balls?
At what point do we say enough to the bat manufactures?
If what Einstein says is correct, we should be in control of our game. We as a group should be able to pressure our organizations to cool down our game without adding obstacles on the field or changing the rules.
We should be able to regain some sanity and balance back to our game.
How will that be accomplished? We need ideas.
I personally could care less about personal interests, and I dont believe there is ever an ignorant question. Nor do I believe that just because you choose to not register your name that your remarks or ideas are any less valid or that you are a coward.
Its my opinion people who think along these lines are either afraid of something or have something to hide.
And quite frankly I am tired of reading the same old crap, post after post without an idea on how to solve some of our issues.
Every post on issues or rules ends up with HE SAID SHE SAID.
I dont have all the answers and probably few that are, or would be popular.
But I am willing to share them none the less.
Ok, I'm done ranting, See you in Reno!

If you would rather not post here send me your email:

Boonierat1@aol.com

I'll answer all hate mail as well. =)




May 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You running for president, John?
You're ability for language and spinning
the truth would afford you well.
I think anyone who would derogate
or personally criticize another without
standing in as themselves
is a coward and have said so
many times.
I never said questions were ignorant.
But those who refuse to or cannot see the truth about themselves, others
and reality in general,
are ignorant (not knowing)
and I believe that without hesitation.
Simple solutions can be blocked
by the will of a powerful few
and the lack of will of the majority
of any society not least of which
is senior ball.
If more of us got involved
that would be better for all.
Real polls by real people
would/could go a LONG way
in effecting satisfying SS ends
and that's not the way that a lot of decisions affecting us have been made.
You said you're done ranting.
I hope so but I'm skeptical
given your track record
but I'm rooting for you,
nonetheless.


May 27, 2010
udaplaya
91 posts
i don't know where are you guys live, but please tell me where all this "balls are flying out of the park, we need to make defense a part of the game again" type of play is going on? I play Major+ and i don't see it: scoring is down, winners of games are routinely in the high teens/low twenties, so what's the beef about the current bat/ball combo. the ultra and combats bat are here to stay period, so move on to the next storyline. i play softball because i like to hit, as do all of my teammates, as do all the guys that i play against - we are the majority that Joe refers to. if you doubt it, then why do senior bats, without even the decency of a warranty, continue to fly off the shelves.

if you want defense and reduced hitting, you can always play senior baseball.

And another thing, Dave Dowell and his staff do an absolutely unbelievable job on these tournaments draws, getting the brackets out far in advance, with most of the minor changes thereafter due to the teams. Would i love to play in Sparks again this year, yes i would. But i understand we do need to rotate, so off to CC we go this year.
May 27, 2010
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
udaplaya.......I agree with you 100%. Perhaps some one at the Reno tournament can post the number of home runs and the number of hit pitchers by age and ratings.
May 27, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
There was a time illegalities were dealt with... By the manufacturers and the assn's.
Seems this is no longer the case. WHY is a good question for THEM to answer. Bit don't hold your breath waiting.
I believe players should have more say in what and how they play but since becoming a "business" venture, it's akin to going to your boss if a large company and speaking out...unleess you own it.
Balance can come from and in many forms, with these probably more important:
Equipment, rules and ratings\brackets....
Overall. the equip seems to be the sticking point but trust me, it's going to change.
As for ID's I don't have a problem, either with seeing names or not. Personally, I'd like to MEET every one I communicate with on here or elsewhere
I post. I think conversations mean a little more when they are face to face or you actually know who is posting. But you can learn a lot (about people) from posts with a name or different names.

More later, got to go play ball...
May 27, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
I already have a job Joe.
Two issues guys, one is I didnt say anyone called a question ignorant, I said there are no ignorant questions.
When you try to ignore the anonomous you are ignoring the majority.
The other is, no one said a word about balls flying out of parks. The issue with balance is to slow the ball speed down to afford infielders a more realistic chance to field their position and for out fielders to be able to do the same. (There are far more teams in lower divisions then M+. Try looking at the whole picture when making your comments.) When this happens all talk of safety and field obstacles will end.
Issues E, issues. Remember?
I agree with Taits, there is a change coming, some of us will like it and some wont. Joe you know this is true.


May 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You need to run for office, E.
You're really slick and very good at spinning stuff.

We, in NorCal,
have been here before we'll be OK.
One way or another we will play with lively bats and balls.
I guarantee it.
There's lots of ways to skin a cat.
May 27, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
E4/E6,they already have the ball,52-275.
all the other balls(40,44 C.O.R.) are at least twice as dangerous/deadly with the bats we use if not more.
I STILL WONDER WHY SSUSA HAS NOT LOOK INTO THIS OR ANY OF THE OTHER SENIOR ORG'S.

also why has senior org's let bats go way beyond what they say is good for bats,by their own admission bats are supposed to be no more than 1.21 bpf.our senior bats go way beyond that.asa,usssa and the younger assoc have changed their bat testing b/c mfg's had found ways around the tests.

WHY HASN'T SSUSA STEPPED UP AND DEMANDED THAT THE SENIOR BAT TEST OUT OUT NO MORE THAN 1.21 WHEN COMPLETELY BROKEN IN,OR NO MORE THAN 1.23.

BY THE WAY JOEY WHY HAVEN'T YOU CALLED OUT UDAPLAYER FOR NO NAME,OH THATS RIGHT HE AGREE'S WITH YOU.

lets bring some sanity back to our game and not get anyone killed or seriously injured.
May 27, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1000 posts
It will be interesting in August, when NorCal has its annual championship tournament at Big League Dreams in Manteca. They don't allow Miken Ultra IIs, and by August, they may have banned some of the current hot competitors as well. How will einstein's team use hot bats as he guarantees?

Knowing his integrity, and his frequent condemnation of altered bats, I know he doesn't plan to cheat. How will he skin this cat?

By the way, it is interesting to ponder why BLD bans the hot bats. The fields are roomy enough, from 300 foot minimum to 360 feet. Behind the fences they have high walls and nets so no one and no property can be damaged by a long bomb over the fence. It must be on safety issues alone, and taits might agree that lots of hot bats will be banned before the year is out, especially by private parks like BLD who don't have to go through a membership vote like some associations.

E4, nice starting post. Guess I am naive because I don't see where you are "spinning the truth". :)
May 27, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
The only thing spinning on me Joe is my head, trying to figure out what the heck you are talking about.
I try to open an honest discussion about bats and balls and all you can do is lamblast everything I am asking.
It cant always be about you bud!
Again Joe, remember its about the issues that should concern us. Ideas, good bad or indifferent. Yours, the anonymous, and eveyone else who chooses to post.
While Norcal is a very fine place it is still second to SoCal in California, the numbers bare that out. And yes NCSSA is a cut above many LOCAL organizations. I suppose if all you want to do is play in local tournaments thats the way to go.

Dog from what I have learned thats the ball we will soon be using throughout Senior ball. With some other change that will make many of us cringe. Or applaud.

May 27, 2010
ALLPRO
42 posts
Omar, if you look into it you will find that only the Mikens are banned in Senior Tournaments at BLD parks and the reason is about politics and money, not performance.

As for the issue of hot bats/balls, maybe the solution is for Senior Softball to have a division similar to AA, where they use only USSSA/NSA equipment, thereby giving those of you who do not want to use hot bats/balls a place to play your "brand" of competition. I mean this as a serious suggestion.

The rest of us can then play our preference in peace and everyone can be happy.
May 27, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Dog,
for the record, I feel sad when anyone
isn't confident, respectful
or concerned enough to use their own identity which again is the first thing we all find out is important in kindergarten but
it's anonymous characters who are used
as disguises by folks we already know
that I find disingenuous at best
or who make personal criticisms and accusations of others without having the self respect or stones to stand in for themselves that I and most seniors
object to.
Remember, we have a choice to accept
or reject
any decrees that are rendered regarding senior softball especially those
made without our involvement and participation.
I'm not worried at all about continuing
to play the game that I and great majority of us love to play.
May 27, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1000 posts
ALLPRO, as I said, at present, it is only Miken Ultra IIs that are banned. I was just supposing that they may extend the ban to other bats since many senior players, such as einstein, claim there are now other bats out there that, once broken in, are just as hot.

I'm intrigued as to how it is politics and money that led to the ban, not safety. Could you explain further?

Your other suggestion is one I have made myself, although in a slightly different version. Among older senior tournament players (65 and up), I find the majority would rather do without the hot bats.

Most of them I talk to think the game has changed radically within the last ten years with the introduction of composite bats. It isn't so much safety that bothers them (I'm a pitcher myself and began pitching from 34 feet decades ago), but the loss of a balanced game where defense counted for something. They miss the game they played for 40 years and would like to return to it. It might be an idea to reduce the bat power from the older players teams.

I see this is your first post. Welcome to the message board! As you will see by the post below yours, as an anonymous poster, you have already been accused by einstein of wearing a disguise, being disingenuous, having no self respect or stones, and having no involvement or participation. Don't worry, as far as I can see, only einstein objects to anyone who posts anonymously. The rest of us, like myself, value your perspective and input.
May 28, 2010
Lefty
Men's 65
485 posts
Udaplaya I also agree with you 100%.
Joe Lefty Falcon
Wild Bunch Softball #8
60 Major
May 28, 2010
ALLPRO
42 posts
Actually, I have been on this board many times before as "The Pro", but I had to change to something else because my e-mail address changed. Einstein knows me all too well. I'm 65 and a member of the SSHOF who has been out of action for the last 2+ years due to various ailments including having both hips replaced.

I have a different perspective as to the defensive aspect of the game. I feel the present bat/ball equipment requires better defensive play and I greatly admire those who play "between" the white lines (I'm now only a AH/Catcher).

As a member of the LVSSA I can tell you there are VERY few of our club members who would like to change from our current bat/ball combo. In fact in our every Tuesday/Thursday scrimmages we use all Senior bats and the best 44/375 ball made, the Trump Micro Cell. We have mixed players from all age groups and levels playing against each other. For the record we use a screen and find it alters the very little (I have never seen a throw from the infield or the outfield ever hit it).

I really believe the only way the two sides of this discussion will ever agree is to give each of them a venue using the equipment they prefer.
May 28, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
pro i remember you(and have actually met you in vegas),but that doesn't absolve you from what joey says.
now i personally don't care if anyone puts their personal info out there for everyone to see,and for me it doesn't diminish one bit what they have to say.there are way to many scammers out there looking to steal info and use it to our determent,it doesn't take but a little piece for them to use it.

now as for our defense getting better,,mmm thats a misnomer as we are getting older and reflexes slower.with this hot bat/ball combo we are put in more danger than ever before.i guess you can call it defense when a ball is hit at you and all you can do is cover up and hope it hits your glove,and not your body.any ball hit to the left or right of us, we used to be able to go get,not any more.
i think lvssa is just an accident waiting to happen with your bat/ball combo,especially with the varied age and skill level you say you have in your league.what happens when the screen is hit,what are the rules.


oh joey i'm still waiting for you to call out the no info people on here,just b/c they agree with you is prolly why not,why should their post be relevant over us they do have our info out there.
May 28, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Regarding the Ultra-2 ban at least in Manteca, I spoke with the general manager at the first ncssa event there some years back for about 45 minutes. Bottom line on the bat being the only one was at the time insurance for some unnamed reason went through the roof so the corporation who controls all the parks made it corporate wide to ban that bat...
While its true other bats are as hot now and some were back then, I don't think those others were looked at for perhaps some other reason I do not know about, nor asked then.
Just be glad the others are still good to go as it were.
May 28, 2010
JamesLG
303 posts

If they are going to change the bat/ball combo for safety are they also going to stop 50's teams from playing 60's teams. If it is all about safety wouldn't this need to be addressed also?

Thanks:

James
May 28, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
james i would think so also,we as a AA team had to play a M team in a tourney this year,no contest on hard they hit compared to what we did.we stayed close only b/c of the 5 run rule,oh they did hit a few back up the middle even with the over the limit hrs walks and not outs,so there goes that theory of staying out of the middle if allowed to hit balls over the fence without penalty.
May 29, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
JamesLG,
Don't count on any changes there. It's about filling the brackets I believe with what ever means whom ever feels "equalizes" the match up.
As with many brackets, some work better than others.
I really feel it's done fairly well. I do not like the 5 run thing starting in the 2nd, primarily because not all go 7 innings. Time WAS when you got it upfront...
The age differences are one thing add to that the ratings you have a mess.
As long as you can put all that aside and just go out there and try to win by doing your utmost best, you should not worry too much about your ending.
The thought about it will effect you, just like errors effect everyone and a HR at the right time lifts spirits.
June 1, 2010
VTSoxFan
1 posts
I am new to Senior Softball and play in the Men's 40's. I am in complete agreement that bats such as the Milken Ultra and the new Combat be banned; particularly in the 40's age group. In the last couple of months I have played a Senior's tournament in both Manteca and most recently the Rockin Reno. While the talent level was significantly different, I certainly enjoyed the Manteca event much more given that there was bat restictions There is no reason that this age bracket should be allowed to use these juiced bats. When the average player is hitting hrs effortlessly and infielders having little or no time to react, something needs to be done to protect the players as well as the integrity of the game. I played D-I baseball and as a 3B in Senior Softball I play back on the edge of the grass for self preservation. I am not afraid to admit that for certain individuals in the box there is a fear factor. I cannot comment on the situation in the older divisions, but for 40's these bat and ball combinations will turn fatal regardless of pitchers wearing masks and shin guards.
June 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
VT,it is true in all the age groups with this combo.the answer is in the ball we can use to make it safer for us.we can use the 52-275 classic+ ball(usssa)and take away the serious injuries or death that can come from the 40-44 c.o.r. balls.
June 1, 2010
BrianWin33
Men's 40
7 posts
I pitch for my Over 40 team PTV (#33)...We played in Reno this past weekend and let me tell you I avoided serious injury several times on some missiles that were hit back at me. I pitch very defensively (I take 3 steps back and square my body after I release the pitch)and I still had little or none reaction time on balls coming back up the middle. And for them to get rid of the "no hit middle" rule the mask and shin guard rule is a joke. Luckily I still have very fast reflexes and was able to put a glove on and protect myself on all those missiles (bruised 2 bones in my glove hand). They need to change the rules for the 40's division at a minimum. Use a different ball or ban the Ultra II's and Combats...In the 5 games we played on Saturday, every team used all 8 of their home runs, and these balls weren't just clearing the fences, these were 450 ft bombs.If you think there aren't any altered bats being swung you are naive....
June 4, 2010
Omar Khayyam
1000 posts
VT and Brian, welcome to the world of lively bat/ball combo that some of the home run hitters love. Fun for them, I guess, as they see a ball sail far out into the Nevada sky, but as you noted, it was not fun for infielders who saw a ball zoom by before they could take the first step, nor for outfielders who got to stand and watch ball after ball sail over their heads and over the fence. Less lively bats and/or balls would bring a more balanced game about with more fun for all (and less danger to the pitcher, as well as the corner infielders).
June 4, 2010
DoubleL10
Men's 65
833 posts
Wow! I was unaware that 40 year old players got to swing "senior" bats. Nor was I aware that 40-somethings were now "seniors"! I play in a "senior" league in Oklahoma City and the minimum age is 43. We cannot use senior bats; however, we do use USSSA bats. The balls are the Worth Classic M and we rarely see a homerun in our League. I think letting 40-somethings swing Ultra IIs, etc. is irresponsible.
June 4, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3938 posts
yeah larry they have been doing it for a couple of yrs now or better.you guys should get rid of the classic m and use the classic +.the + is not bothered by the temp and humidity like the M is,M is a cold weather ball only.

well hope to see ya at keist next week.
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