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Discussion: 52 x 275 ball

Posted	Discussion
May 31 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	52 x 275 ball I have talked with numerous players who have tried a 52 x 275 ball and most to all of them didn't like the way it performed when struck, bounced on the field, or felt when thrown (light). These are huge factors in deciding what ball to use or is or would be right for senior softball. The biggest problem I have with it has to do with what Don Clatterbaugh probably the best active hitter in senior ball, talking on Ken Van Bogaert's latest hitting video, said and that is that hitting the center of the ball is the best way to insure the best result. The 52 x 275 ball doesn't respond very well when center struck. Proponents say it must be spun to respond well which also goes against intuition and natural eye/hand coordination in my book. I believe Don is right especially when a pitcher has thrown a ball that has some movement and the batter must revert to a more instinctive swing and will usually find and try to find, the center of the ball. This would penalize/restrict the hitter in my book for being taught to hit the middle of the ball and trust his/her natural instinctive movements creating negative learning and tension making the whole experience less satisfying for all involved. What do you think? We're going to need to have a reaction ready for all concerned when/if this ball ever gets closer to us than it is right now which some argue is just around the corner.
June 1 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts	r That's why I have said in numerous posts that if they are going to slow the game down, they need to cut back the bats and leave a good ball in place. Every time they have done it with the ball, it is bad for quite a while. The RF80 didn't last one full inning before becoming total mush. If they were to announce a cutback, and if they gave it a year, the bat manufacturers would have time to get rid of inventory. They survived and prospered before the 'hot' bats came around. After that, we would still be buying as many bats, unless the new ones lasted longer, which would be nice. If it is to be done, do it with the bats.
June 1 taits Men's 65 4548 posts	r I read a few post about having to spin the 52 ball in order to make it work better and I do not like the idea of having to relearn me swing technique. Perhaps if the ball does come into play which i suspect it will, they could either do the balls at one period of time with the bats as we know it, and if that doesn't work for safety issue reasons then look at lowering the bat standard to say U-trip. Or visa versa, U-trip bats first with the 44\375 balls and then add the 52 cor ball later if that doesn't solve the issue. But either way you know something will come, just how much and when is one issue. Other issue is the altered bats. The what will be done and who will do it... no one currently is. Easton has that policy, but when was the last time you read anything was done... 5-6 years ago, maybe. Just a smoke screen blowing, like the bat warning labels.
June 1 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Joe, from Master Collision, had a great idea about moving the bases back to 70 feet affording more protection for the infielders and runners from batted balls and going with screens if we need to but said as the great majority of us feel that we don't want to and won't hit sub par balls in senior ball.
June 1 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	r Again, a bunch of discussion about changes to the game just to accommodate the special bats. Am I the only one that sees the common cause of all of this?
June 1 Player25 Men's 55 50 posts	r I would disagree with hitting the center of the ball is the best way to hit. The reason is simple: if you hit the center of the ball it will knuckle. Knuckle balls do not travel as for as a ball that is "spun". Therefore must batters are trying to "spin" the ball. Some are trying to hit "top spin" and others are hitting "under spin". Both are hitting close to the center but are either a little above or below. Do not see where hitting the 52 cor would be different than hitting the 44 cor. Let's face facts, we are getting older and our strength, eye hand coordination, speed, health, etc. is declining regardless of how much we continue to work on skills and strength. Why should we expect to do things in our 50's and above that we could not do in our younger years??? The question that continually crosses my mind when reading the message board: Are our egos so big and fragile that we must oppose nature to still enjoy the game we have played for many years?? If I never hit another homerun I would still play for the friendship and competition.
June 1 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	r Player, I am guessing those are all rhetorical questions. We both know the sad answers to them.
June 1 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well joey as usual you've stuck your foot in your mouth.as player25 says hitting the center of the ball produces a knuckle ball,they don't travel like a ball that has back spin on it,which if i may say is what all hr hitters do to get the ball out of the park,not one says to hit it dead center and have it knuckle. oh agin your foot in mouth has happen when you describe the dislikes of the 52-275 ball,guess what,it is exactly what you said why you didn't like the MCT type ball,but now you do. exactly how many did you really talk to,i can't figure out how many numerous is. bring our game some sanity,use the 52-275 ball and our senior's will be alive to play more.
June 1 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r here is a link to another softball board for all the dissenters about the 52-275 ball. http://www.softballfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=846709 i know TW,he is by no means a big gorilla,he is about 6'3" and 210-220 lbs,yes a skinny stick. now tell me we can't use a 52-275 ball.
June 1 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	r Joe, after meeting you in Reno I am having a tough time posting anything negative about you or your ideas, I guess I'll take some time before i start my posts again. Thanks for the hand shake and hug! After all is said and done you too are a class act! I will however ask you to tell whoever your "loud mouth" friend is, that the bat is only an instrument, and my triple was still hit by the guy swinging the bat. =) Looking forward to the next time.
June 1 AndyA25 16 posts	r I've played in one tournament using the 52 cor ball as well as one league using them. Also, play in two leagues using the 44 /375 balls. As well as tournaments. I'm just not seeing the big controversy. These balls are fine. I actually think I can hit the 52's a little farther. I'd be curious as to what an Ultra could do with them. However, it seems the leagues and tournaments that use them don't allow ultras.
June 1 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Robert. Check out Clatta talking on Bogie's monster video and get back to me with your response. Hitting the center of the ball is not only the best way to hit a ball but it's instinctive making it counter-intuitive to teach or try anything else. Here come the list of anonymous donors which is probably all the same guy with the same ax to grind. Let me put it simply for you. The 52x275 ball will NEVER be acceptable to/for the great majority of seniors. That's what I contend, what I have learned and what I believe to be true. It's not lively enough and too funky. Somebody said a 50 x 375 ball would be better for seniors. Maybe so, let's check 'em out.
June 1 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r ok joey what part of physics don't you understand(and you were an educator).if you hit a round object (ball) with a round object(bat) dead center you get no spin,thus you have a knuckle ball.any ball that travels a great distance has back spin,(or under spin as some say).show me where hr hitters want to hit a knuckle ball,they don't they want back spin on the ball for carry,oh by the way that is what demarini professed and i'll believe him over someone just trying to make money on a fluff video.plus the fact i don't need for someone to tell me how to hit,what is your agenda here on this video you keep pushing. as far as the no names what about the ones that seem to agree with you,why don't you call them out,me i can care less about a person's name just the content of their post,unlike you.you need personal info so you can degrade them.
June 1 Stretch14 Men's 50 202 posts	r What is a special bat?
June 1 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well here are some facts about the 52-275 ball and the ones you want to use joey.please discuss this,which you prolly won't.tell me why your ego would allow someone to be killed or so seriously injured to require massive amount of surgery to put them back together. i prefer life myself.please show me something to dispute these facts if you have any. HERE SOME Facts on Balls. 1.) 44 x 375 & 52 x 275, COST the SAME 2 MAKE. 2.) THE 44 x 375, HAS a Severity INDEX (S.I.), of OVER 1980; SOME r as HIGH as 2900. 3.) THE PRESENT DAY 44 x 375 BALL HAS a PEAK "G" FORCE THAT is OVER 210. 4.) THE 52 x 275,HAS a S.I., of ONLY 466. 5.) THE 52 cor BALL, HAS a PEAK "G" FORCE of ONLY 157. 6.) At 50 Degrees, a 44 x 375 Balls comp, is CLOSER to 495. 7.) 4 the 52 x 75 BALL, @ 50 Degrees, THE COMPRESSION is STILL 275. 8.) At 100 Degrees, THE 44 x 375 BALL ] COMPRESSION, Drops 2 ABOUT 200. 9.) 4 the 52 x 275 BALL, @ 110 Degrees THAT BALL is STILL @ 275 in compression. THE 52 BALL is SAFER in COLDER WEATHER & Hits BETTER in HOT WEATHER. WHAT DOES THIS DATA MEAN, in REAL LIFE ? A S.I., NEAR 1200, WILL BREAK HUMAN Bones / KILL a HUMAN! A PEAK "G" FORCE of OVER 170, WILL KILL a HUMAN or CAUSE MASSIVE BRAIN DAMAGE. FACTS on BOTH Balls: 1.) THE LOWEST BAT SPEED 2 PRODUCE a HR, w/ the 44 x 375, WAS 84.-- MPH. 2.) THE LOWEST BAT SPEED 2 PRODUCE a HR, w/ the 52 cor BALL, WAS 72 MPH. 3.) A HEAVIER BAT, WILL HIT BOTH Balls FARTHER, COMPARED to a Lighter 1. 4.) WHEN 1 Hits THE 52 BALL, THE SOUND of the BALL OFF the BAT is DIFFERENT. 5.) THE FEEL of a 52 BALL, OFF a BAT, is ALSO, DIFFERENT. WHEN the 52 x 275 BALL GOES in 2 PLAY, ALL of the CHEATER Bats and all the BAT THAT are shaved or THAT HAVE BEEN MANUFACTURED HOT, WILL HIT ABOUT THE SAME. SHAVED Bats do HIT the 44 x 375 BALL ABOUT 22 to 23 MPH FASTER, (as FAR BAT EXIT SPEED) COMPARED 2 the 52 X 275 BALL. So, if, u r a HR HITTER, u WILL STILL HIT HRs. one WILL NEED 2 HIT the BALL, no CHEAP 1s. If, u r a PLAYER THAT Uses CHEATER Bats, in ORDER 2 HIT HR, GOOD LUCK. If, u USE ROLLED / SHAVED / or PUT EXTRA WEIGHT in a BAT, GOOD LUCK. ALSO, THE 52 x 275 BALL, WILL CAUSE LESS BATS to BREAK; NOT as QUICKLY.
June 1 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Robert. Clatta is not only the best hitter, the best, Robert, in senior ball in mine and many others opinion and one of the most dedicated, pure and old school players, teammates and opponents on the planet but he's intelligent and generous regarding his understand and approach to the game. I'm sorry, Bob, but just mentioning you and your criticisms next to Clatta is all that needs be done to make my point. Hitting the center of the ball is how we're taught and mazimizes natural instincts and capabilities in order to deliver the best results. There's really nothing more to say. That 52 x 275 ball will not perform acceptably to seniors and in my estimation will not be endorsed and supported by the overwhelming majority of us. Time will tell, Bob and we'll all get to chose.
June 1 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r as usual joey you refuse to put any facts out there.you can say all you want about any hitter,and i'll tell you that hitting a ball dead center is not what it takes to hit it long,you need back spin regardless of any ball you use.i would really like to see someone who hits it dead center not get a knuckle ball ,show me,you can't as that is what happens when you hit a ball dead center.now i will say there is a small few who have the strength to do it(hit a knuckle ball out of a 300' field),but not the majority of the hitters playing today and that includes the youngsters also.you really need to watch ray demarini's video to get the real truth of how to hit a ball, not some fluff video on how to hit a ball 400'.maybe you should really ask the real hr hitters in what they really try and do to make a ball carry,i will say they'll tell you that they try to get some back spin on the ball. you type a lot of words but you have no substance to it,just the "I GOT HAVE THE HOTTEST BAT/BALL COMBO TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE",BLAH,BLAH.i have posted facts on these balls,both types,about safety,performance and such and all you can do is cry because you might not be able to hit a ball 400'.put some facts out there,answer our/my questions why you have so little regard for a players life.is it really worth it for someone to die so YOU can enjoy your game.
June 1 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Hey, E4, John. Feeling is mutual. Hope you did well and had a great time in Reno.
June 1 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Maddog Robert versus All World, Don Clatterbaugh. Couldn't sell any tickets to that contest now could we? Aiming at the center of the ball maximizes a hitter's potential for getting on base just like Clatta says, Bob. Sorry you can't seem to grasp the idea.
June 1 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r oh joey i can grasp the idea,its just pure physics on how you hit a ball that will carry,you need backspin,and you don't get that with dead center hits,its just that simple.you need to be at least a 1/8" to a 1/4" below center to get the back spin you need for carry of the ball.now please post your facts on how you get to have a ball carry....mmmm thought so,you have none of your own,always trying to use someone else or drop a name.
June 2 Capt Kirk 541 posts	r Mad Dog, what is the link to verify the psi generated by the .52/275 in comparsion to .44/375, pls provide. I am recommending that our league (SASSL) review pitcher safety issues. Thanks
June 2 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts	r Yawn.................
June 2 dj 32 posts	r mad dog see post below by DCpete : be very carful what you wish for, this is the ball you want to use, this is not the game I want to play dj
June 2 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r capt,trumpball has the links,there is a site called B&N that does these type of tests,with bats and balls that i have seen. dj the new classic+ that usssa uses is a completely different ball in performance than the first ones out.
June 2 Capt Kirk 541 posts	r Capt,trumball, what is the link to verify the psi & severity index generated by the .52/275 in comparsion to .44/375, pls provide. I am recommending that our league (SASSL) review pitcher safety issues. Thanks
June 2 taits Men's 65 4548 posts	r Circle ball ASA stamp Diamond ASA stamp Red Colored Marking & Stamp Ditto Max 375 lbs Max 300 lbs Max .47 cor Max .47 cor Black Colored Marking & Stamp Ditto Max 375 lbs Max 300 lbs Max .44 cor Max .44 cor Blue Colored Marking & Stamp ditto Max 375 lbs Max 300 lbs Max .40 cor Max .40 cor ASA currently list these by cor comp or lbs., USSSA and NSA only list makers (8-10) not specific balls allowed or used. One does like some Baden that ARE NOT ALLOWED by model number only. I didn't get that info. I find do reference to the 52\275 balls being used by 52\275 reference. on any of those sited as of today. But we all know how in tune & up to date with the real world they are. Dah.
June 2 Smokey20 Men's 55 102 posts	r Joe, As you know I demo'd this ball. My opinion is the only way this ball servives in Senior Softball is that it's implemented across the board SSUSA, SPA, NCSSA, etc, at the same time. And there's no where else to play. I beleive if given a choice between associations A or B, teams will choose the one with the better ball 44/375. Dollars will be the ultimare factor in any permanet changes. If an asociation changes to the 52/275 and the numbers decline the ball will die on the vine.
June 2 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r smokey go to the link i have posted above and read what the guys there think of the new classic+ that usssa uses.i think you guys demo a ball that first came out.the new version is a lot better.i actually hit the older ball before you guys tested it and didn't have a problem with it.i'm not a hr hitter either but got balls thru the inf and into the gaps ok. i will agree that it needs to be implemented for all assoc for it to be successful,and a lot of them are really looking closely into it.govt is getting involved along with ins company's b/c of the injury factor involved with the present balls being used.
June 3 Fred Scerra Men's 80 542 posts	r I agree with mad dog. The original 52/275 were bad. We have gone to the 52/275 in one of our Divisions and it is working out pretty well. One thing I noticed when testing them and using them in our games is that aluminum bats (in my case the F4 and PST98Z) work a lot better than with composites. IMO putting all the big egos aside it makes for a better game and defense becomes an important factor in the game the way it was meant to be.
June 3 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Let's go back to the fluff video comment, Robert. Bogie's video's are the best. He and his family produce Theatre quality videos of guys in senior softball from Jeff Hall to Clatta and Kevin Schulstrom. They been doing it for years and are simply fabulous at it and get better all the time. The love and care they have for players, seniors and senior softball screams with every frame they produce. They're a blessing to/for us in the senior softball community and you might know that if you ever took the time or had the self respect to check one out before you opened your pie hole. Didn't know Kevin Schulstrom is one of the Fluffy instructors on Bogie's Fluffy video. Did you? How about getting your own experience in order to form an opinion instead of being spoon fed and "injected" with info from your betters. You're way off base, Robert and don't have the sense to figure it out. You just parrot and recurgitate what others who don't love our game or have well documented self interest relating to these issues have to say. The ball has to be lively enough to experience the fundamental joy of playing our game. The reports to date on that 52x275 that I've heard leave it falling far short of acceptable to seniors and others I've spoken with for very good reasons. We will all chose when/if they try to stuff that ball down our throats and I and countless others have already made the choice.
June 3 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well guess fluff man didn't want to read your post fred,or bother going to the link i have posted,he is to busy trying to push a video on to us,wonder how much he is getting for this personal agenda he is on. polly want a cracker.
June 3 Lecak Men's 60 1026 posts	r Bob do you know Bogie?
June 3 Smokey20 Men's 55 102 posts	r Mad Dog, Would love to demo the "new" 52/275 ball. The original didn't past the test. The specs, numbers, ratings don't mean a thing if it doesn't "feel/sound right, didn't perform'. This was the biggest complaint during our demo. The complaints were not only from "power hitters" that some say have an ego, but from line drive base hitters to punch and juddies. We that play for the MTC teams have local tournaments for charity several times a year, next one is in September. MTC 50, 55, 60 and a men's team from the Sheriff's department will be there, would be a good time to demo this new ball.
June 3 taits Men's 65 4548 posts	r I doubt that the "new" as you say ball is any different that the 'old' ball. given that using it within the assn's that say they are or do based their finding on that 'old' one. Now if they judge it like some bats are, new v old broken in, your really talking about different things. Maybe they could add a bell inside it, to make a 'sound', lol. I bought a doz to try out later in league here but we are only mid way. So it will be awhile for results. Tried to get some at the time they 'tested' the ball in a "tournament' in Nor Cal, but they were all accounted for. As for the post link on the ...fans web site I didn't think much of it.
June 3 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r smokey if you do,ask for the classic + ball and not the classic m.i know of 2 mfg's that make a good one baden and trump(evil,guru,also made by trump).worth makes one also but don't know anything about them.i'm looking into getting the guru's as he lives near me,and would save on shipping. personally i could care what anyone says about this ball until they try it,thanks for thinking about giving it a shot.i have tried it when they first came out and it hit ok for senior play.i was at a camp in florida when that happen and was watching the hr hitters hitting it out.i was getting to the fence but had none out,i tried 3 assoc bats(asa,usssa,senior along with a metal bat-demarini 375),they all were fairly close in distance with maybe the senior the best.now this was the first edition of this ball and not the improved one they have now.
June 3 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Bobby. Lecak asked if you knew Bogie? You made the comment a couple of times that his videos were fluff and mercenary in nature while featuring Clatta, Jeff Hall, Mike Macenko, Kevin Schulstrom and many, many others. Care to make a statement or just hope your ignorant remarks just go away all by themselves?
June 3 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Yeah, Brian. I spoke with a number of the players who attended that event where the 52x275 ball was trotted out last year and not one whom I talked with who attended at the time said it was any good. I was told that statements were made by those who represented MTC that they would not attend a tournament where this ball was used, ever. MTC fields 3 Major plus teams in nearly all senior events. That's where it still stands until something changes. An improved ball, you say? Trot it out at our charity event in September as Brian suggests. I'll be there too and we can all have a go at it. And why or how Robert could/would you have a positive opinion about a ball that was nearly unanimously trounced by 4 teams of major to major plus players?
June 3 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r If Kevin or anyone come up with a ball that is lively enough for us and performs well enough for us and is safer, great. Let's give it a shot. But we will NEVER support a ball that doesn't perform well enough just like what happened last year at the MTC/Old A event.
June 3 Smokey20 Men's 55 102 posts	r Maybe Kevin can supply us with the balls for this (demo) tournament. The best Trump 52/275 ball that he would recommend for Senior Softball. The caliber of players are 50, 55, and 60, Major to Major Plus, base and power hitters. The Sheriff Department team is a regular USSSA Men's tournament team. In the end I would offer an honest opinion, and recommend that those involved offer their's on this board.
June 3 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r what does it matter if i know him personally or not.it doesn't stop you from flaming people whether you know them or not.to you the ones that you don't know and don't agree with you,are gutless pigs who are self serving.i feel most all video's put out these days are fluff,"let me show you how to hit a ball 400'",why.and if he didn't produce this vid for money,why isn't he giving it away so he can really help us.so please put your fangs away as your bully pulpit tactics don't bother me.oh you still haven't answered my question.so till you do that i will not answer anything you ask of me.
June 3 Eddie12 14 posts	r To who it may concern, I bought this video by Bogie last year. It was the best ten bucks I ever invested in softball! The first tournament I played in after incorporating advice from the video was the Phoenix Worlds. I hit 20 for 24 with 3hrs which for me was extraordinary. Also Einsteins insight on pitchers is worth the money alone
June 3 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Keep talking Robert and more people can check out your enormous ignorance and lack of respect. Keep up the good work.
June 3 DCPete 409 posts	r We've been using the 52/275 for 2 months now in league play. Any tournament that uses this ball will not be able to get enough teams to enter to make it worthwhile.
June 3 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r eddie12 congrats on getting something from it.i myself bought ray demarini's video and have another by a bob murphy,both vids are excellent video's,have had them for over 15 yrs and do not need another. dcpete are you using the classic + ball. i'm waiting for joey bore to flame you for no name.
June 4 DCPete 409 posts	r MD; I think we're using the 52/275 Trump Stote exclusively. I hear the Trump 52/275 X-Rock is better. We're told the young guys are crushing this ball although there's rumors some of them are shaving or juicing but there's no proof of this. What we do know is that using this ball with U-trip bats this year the HRs, Runs scored & batting averages are way down from last year when we used 44/375 balls with ASA bats. So naturally the guys are unhappy especially when the SSUSA/SPA tourneys are still using Ultras with 44/375 balls
June 4 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r DC shaving or any doctoring of a bat doesn't help with this ball,all bats hit it just about the same +/- 15'(one of the reasons why it was developed and for safety).get LD to use the classic + instead of the regular stote,or use the x-rock.baden makes a decent one according to the kids on softballfans,see my link from above.
June 5 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Robert. You know nothing about Clatta, Bogie's volume of work, and Steve Shannon and how most of want to play our game yet you know a ton about this new ball, specs and all, at every turn. Who's been "pumping you" with info and details. C'mon now. Be honest. I know about that ball, too. No one I know who tried it liked it because it didn't hit well, bounced funny and felt too light. No one I talked with thought this ball would be ANY good for seniors or anyone else for that matter. Sounds like you're in the minority Bobby, and your both entitled to your opinion and it's lack of significance to who we are and what we want, need and deserve in senior ball. Lively bats and balls, forever.
June 5 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well joey as usual you have put your foot in your big mouth.i have hit this ball and have watch some seniors hit it,guess what,they still hit the ball out of the park,i didn't as i am not the great hr hitter you all are,but i'll take my 780 ba for tournaments any day(lo of the yr was 750).this yr i have been doing the same so i could care less who's video you want to promote, i already have a couple(even tho they are 15 yrs or older)of videos that do me fine,so unless these new videos do anything different than what i do or have already watched,they are fluff.so please don't get on here and act like bogie has invented batting,he is just rehashing something that has already been done.so get over yourself with your inflated ego. lets bring our game back to balance,52-275 for some balance/safety,for those of us who want to play some defense.
June 5 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r We already play defense, Robert it's how we win close games but we're not tryin' to change the game for everyone else. You should go to and support the tournaments where that "slower" ball is used and you should feel right at home... That's your prerogative but you have no right to change our game, the game the great majority of seniors want to play. Do you/can you get that, Robert? I'm not sure you do.
June 6 Fred Scerra Men's 80 542 posts	r We are using that ball and find it makes for better games. As I have said many times your circle of friends don't represent the Millions of us seniors who play the game for fun and enjoyment and don't need the Ultra's to do it. As far as changing the game what change the game more than the Ultra's? We are just trying to bring it back to before the days of the artificial stats of the Ultra's.
June 6 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Knock yourself out, Fred. You're entitled to your opinion and it's pursuits. God bless you playing at 75+. There is no doubt your opinion does not represent the whole or most of us but if you like playing with that ball, go for it. It doesn't work for us.
June 6 Capt Kirk 541 posts	r I am not speaking for the moral, immoral majority, AA, AAA, Major, or Major + players. I am speaking as an individual who has an opinion, I don't need to use a support system to express my viewpoints. I am in favor of providing the pitcher with better protection (either/or-screen, mandatory protection equipment, or a .52/275 ball). I see more and more of just near misses, I personally believe that hitters would benefit, it would open up the middle. Just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions. Einstein. how is the coffee and desserts at the Warming Hut, a great view of the Golden Gate Bridge from there.
June 6 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r guess it doesn't matter what ya say,as they say "you lead a horse to water but can't make them drink" guess we'll have to wait for someone to die for it to happen. how about this we have one div who don't care about human life and they can hit or use what ever bat/ball combo they want,just one div within age brackets(no AA,AAA,M,M+,just 1,you can call it comp div).the rest can play a safer/saner game with the 52-275 ball with lets say 2 div,upper and lower.
June 6 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r "Dammit, Jim." I love Captain Kirk and William Shatner forever from the Star Trek days. I haven't been to the Warming Hut. Sounds great and I'll check it out when I get a chance. I'm pretty much of a homeboy these days staying within 3 blocks of where I live in downtown San Francisco just about all the time. Lively bat/ball combo is essential to the enjoyment of our game and that's an almost unanimous opinion. We'll play with lively bats/balls one way or another, I'm sure.
June 6 tattooball 774 posts	r Once again the moron minded professor speaks. Fred put a post that represents the league that he plays in that ACTUALLY uses the ball, and you have to jump in and run your foolish mouth that has never used the ball. I would bet that the players that ACTUALLY use this ball represent more than your self proclaimed majority, he at least has numbers to back his findings along with real data of it's use. You just continue to ASSume that you are the majority and that you are right, yet you have not even played 1 game with the ball. Talk about Chicken Little.....
June 6 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r You weren't even in the discussion and you come in calling people names. You're embarrassing yourself and those your represent, Kevin and it has nothing to do with me or anyone else. Your behavior is disgraceful. I've hit at numerous BP's where the 52x275 ball was used. Same impression everytime. Smokey 20 said, it Kevin along with most to all the MTC and Old A's guys who attended that "special" session, last year. It doesn''t cut it and won't for seniors if not everyone else. Why you do you insist on trying to kill the messenger? That shows a lack of real character and guts, don't you know. The ball we use needs to be lively and likable and friendly to us in order to get our endorsement. There's not a true player in the universe that wants to hit with poorly performing bat/ball combo. And what about all the bounciness? I've talked with kids who used it, infielders and they said they can't stand it. I talked with guys who said it feels too light when caught and thrown. We want to hit with lively bats and balls, Kevin, whether you like it or not.
June 6 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r kevin could you post the labs that did the tests so every one can go look for themselves,i think B and N was one.i have read them but don't have a link to them and forget the names of them. also forget about the brick wall,remember they have no ears and can't listen to reason or logic.
June 7 tattooball 774 posts	r Joe you should be in the army, what is their motto? Army of one thats right. Your's can be the majority of one. I'd bet there are more players in Fred's league that like the ball than players you can get to post that have actually used it. I have all of the test data in a folder in my files. All of the associations have reviewed them, that it why they are switching. They are also switching because the players are now demanding it. To bad the select few that represent the majority can not read what the rest of the softball world is doing.
June 7 tattooball 774 posts	r PS: You are a joke and a disgrace to think that you would put your ego before human life.
June 7 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r As I have said a zillion times we players will make our choices, Kevin, on what balls to use, where to spend our money, where to play and with whom, who's of us and who isn't, who to believe and trust and who's self interest will take us far and wide. Name calling and attacking those who disagree with you, just makes it clearer and clearer all the time.
June 7 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Back to the issues. Lively bats and balls, forever and if winning is still important free defensive subbing is a far better way to get more to all the guys in any game than adding guys to the line-up, picnic style.
June 7 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well looks like GAME,SET MATCH,guess your gonna have to quit softball as the majority has spoken there joey boy. 52-275 ball to save lives and bring defense back to our game.
June 7 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Robbie, you couldn't recognize the truth if Jesus spoke it to you or if it came up and bit you in the ass. Just keep talkin' son and it will become clearer and clearer who you are aren't. You're doing a great job in helping us get ready to deal with the pile of crap that may be coming at us just around the corner.
June 7 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r i know that the 44-375 can kill and the 52-275 won't,that is the truth. sorry you are so thick headed that you can't see the forest for the trees. and who is this jesus you speak of as i now you don't know him,if so maybe you would have some regard for life.
June 7 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	r Joe-Hova, Good, bad or indifferent, we will play with whatever ball is used. If every ball other then a 52/275 is discontinued and no longer produced that will only leave checkers and lawn bowling. Please dont cut off the nose to spite the face. Even in the Mighty NorCal, the ball will eventually change. If its not accepted, theres always the above mentioned sports.
June 7 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Every ball we've ever used can kill, John. That's the point. I can't believe how/why golf galleries can get so close to the guy teeing off. If that was me they'd all be in big trouble. If I or some pro killed a watcher with a line drive would that mean the ball was too lethal??? C'mon, man. The argument has not been made we need or should go to a "safer" ball and I believe in my commerades that we won't support being slamboozled and herded like little bobby sheep. The safety argument is way out of perspective regardless of liability or the lawyers involved. They're trying to make the game safe when it was never safe to begin with which will kill it. It's like trying to take the danger out of football or basketball or soccer or bob-sledding or javelin tossing or ice-skating. Can't be done and better things should be thought about and pursued regarding our sport. Like Smart bats and gloves.
June 7 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r All the stats and science, shmience. Scientists say bumble bees can't fly, too. Where was all the danger and the fragile egos in Reno last week or this past week? Did anyone get crippled? How many home runs were hit? What were the scores? We played a seven inning game against one of the hottest hitting teams in the country with the wind blowing out and only 3 home runs were hit the whole game in a 12 to 8 defensive struggle. It just doesn't bear itself out in the "real world" of softball and we just aren't going to buy all the BS and self interest going on. Mark my words. Our game has always been dangerous and need be in order to experience and enjoy it or else it's time for checkers and lawn bowling.
June 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r To me, the biggest thing that the "science" about safety doesn't deal with and it shows the bias of those trying to push the whole enchilada down our throats is anticipation. When you play defense whether pitcher or infielder you anticipate the ball coming which starts your defensive reaction long before the ball is struck. That's why/how you can get to a hard hit ball even faster than pure reaction time and reflexes involved. There's no doubt in my mind that this primary aspect of how one catches or avoids sharply hit balls was never factored in to the "objective testing" that was done and we hear about incessantly. And what about the adrenaline that courses through a human when danger is perceived? Women can lift volkswagons off their youngsters when adrenalinized. When there is risk there is adrenalin. Was danger/risk brought into these reaction experiments in order to see how much quicker an adrenalinized reaction would be? I bet not. It's the human factor which almost never shows up in empirical data and is almost always the essence of what takes place. We don't experience too much danger from the regular game we play and have been playing for some time now if normal safety rules and bat standards are enforced. Our game has always been dangerous and it provides us with the adrenaline to accomplish great results. If you don't want to play with the risk of being hurt it's time to play checkers or go lawn bowling. And if you really want to protect pitchers, put up a screen. Then everyone else still gets to have some fun.
June 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r duh what the hell do you think i have been saying.as a SS i watch a batter and can tell which way a ball is going,but with this equipment we use it is almost impossible to get to them.what part of this don't you understand. these test do not test reaction,only the damage that is done after being hit.we as the older generation have slower reaction times,what part of that don't you understand. you seem to not really understand a lot.your only thought is to hit a ball so hard as to be able to kill someone,yeah right go talk to your friend jesus.
June 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Robert, you're a mess but you're entitled to your opinion and if you want and need a slower game to match your capabilities knock yourself out.
June 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well joey boy your running your mouth without any info,you don't have a clue to my abilities,but i would put 10 of me against 10 of you any day you would like.
June 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Robert. You don't mean anything of what you say, do you? You're just recalcitrant and an attention freak who likes making trouble. There are a bunch of guys in NorCal who can't believe you talking about not using fixed/loaded bats because they say you did all the time. And I think they're telling the truth. What do you have to say for yourself, son?
June 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well again you run off with the mouth,as your boy GT was always getting loaded bats,and you run with him,guess that makes you a cheater also.great thing to do for the president of your ncssa. if you think you can prove that i have ever done it go ahead and do it,oh thats what i thought you can't. so get your facts straight before you slander people,joey boy,hey does gary make you carry his bag still. oh and i'm still up for a ten of me against ten of you.
June 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r You're obviously lying and you're a joke, Bobby, and no one anyone need take seriously.
June 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r What a malignant imbecile you are. The president of NCSSA is Gary Tryhorn and Hall of Fame monster player and manager who coached and played on one of the most successful and prominent senior softball teams in history. A great men dedicated to senior ball and it's players and you dare try to slander him, you piece of pig sludge. You can't even be mentioned in the same sentence as him and anybody like him. That's what you do. You can't take the truth about guys who say you're a bat cheater/fixer and you try to pull someone down into the gutter with you. What you did and who you are Bobby are a function of you and not me or abouut me or Gary or anyone else. That's the definition of a loser, Bobby straight and true and in full view.
June 8 4x4 Men's 65 601 posts	r Whoa - whoa down there Bob!!!! You been standing in the sun too long since you moved to Texas??????? Being on multiple teams with GT and taking BP with him on a weekly basis we routinely discuss bats and have our bat bags available - often helping each other breaking in one anothers bats to get them game ready - or evaluated. We check the balance points on newly acquired bats together checking - analyzing the next newest bat and do so as a group of players with a mutual respect for one another. At no time have I EVER even got the feeling of an inkling to cheat. GT simply does not have to - he works hard at refining his game and as he has added some years is spreading out the field through hard work and repetition - and - if the situation calls for a blast - there it goes. That's what the great hitters do and that is exactly where he should be ranked. He is also an activist/ambassador/spokesman/representative - visionary for the game and detests anything that will cheapen it. When asked he will freely offer his best opinion based on his experience and share it willingly with everyone - not just upper the level players. I rarely post on the board anymore as it's turned into a "I'm bigger than you" and to prove it I'll flaunt my ________________ but it's time to speak up. Bob - we get along well - but in this case you've stepped in it. Pete
June 8 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well that might be so now pete,but it was known that he got hot and endloaded bats back in the day.and by endloaded,i mean ones that the general public couldn't get their hands on. joey boy, you are the one who pulled out the slander card(as usual)by throwing out stuff you have no clue about me,just running your mouth as usual.i guess kevin is right about your pathetic little life,if you can't play your way you'll try and drag everyone else into the mud.you are a nothing,but a name caller and slanderer.no wonder rip-it wouldn't deal with you,they could see the snake you are.
June 8 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r we're done, bobby. I'll have nothing more to do with you, you bottom feeding, malignant loser.
June 9 Capt Kirk 541 posts	r We seem to always lose our civility with one another and revert back to my way or the highway. It would seem to me that cooler heads should prevail, and let's ask our SSUSA Staff what is their opinion in using the .52/275 balls.
June 9 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r The we, has nothing to do with me, James T. We've got a bottom feeding, malingerer in our midst with not enough ante to be included in our game who would lie to hurt others just to keep from admitting the truth about himself. This is terrible and reprehensible behavior, defines its creator, his associates and contributors as garbage and slime, once and for all time. The good is that it's getting clearer and clearer all the time who's who and what's what regarding senior softball, our issues and concerns.
June 9 Capt Kirk 541 posts	r Albert, I am heading down to Mel's Diner to have some biscuits and gravy, that seems to always lower my blood pressure and clears the mind. We as in me, would like to see SSUSA put together a task force (not armed) and review some the issues that seem to be dominating the airwaves e.g Pitcher safety, screen or not to, .52/275 vs .44/375 balls, hot bats and etc.
June 9 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r James T. There's a Mels in SF that's to die for. Killer food and music, too. Great idea to petition SSUSA to "take the lead" and be proactive regarding what's going on and what we should be doing about it all. It's never too late to start pulling in a good direction.
June 9 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r We will help any organization that's willing to define itself in favor of us and our community. That needs to be both known and a given so Associations know they'll be supported for doing the right and best things for us.
June 9 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r SSUSA for example, mandated 44x375 balls and senior bats for this year. That's an example of the kind of win/win behavior we need to be seeking out and developing throughout our community.
June 9 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r yeah right,i have found they that complain or whine the loudest about the dumbing down of the equipment are the ones you have to watch for the swinging of dirty bats.
June 9 Capt Kirk 541 posts	r Mel's Diner on Lombard, been there several times. Capt James T. stated, beam me up Scotty there is no intelligent down here, he must not have talked to any of the Senior Softball Players, he would have came away with a different perspective on us earthlings.
June 9 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	r Or it may have been confirmed!
June 9 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r James Tiberius. It's the one on Geary not Lombard. If you liked the one on Lombard you'll loooooove the one on Geary. I call it, "the Good Mels". On Geary near 1st Avenue, in between Arguello and Masonic. Dammit, Jim.
June 9 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	r I bought my current business from Lt Leslie (Eddie Paskey). But he knows nothing about The good Mels or the bad Mels in Sanctuary City. (Frisco) =)
June 11 Friendorfoe 1 posts	r I am new to this stuff. Are einstein and mad dog best friends or lovers?
June 11 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	r FoF, Only two things come from Texas. The first is Steers the second rhymes with Steers. Thats where Mad Dog calls home. Einstein lives in San Francisco, you are on your own from here. =) Bob and Joe, remember, dont kill the messenger. =)
June 12 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts	r Whew---How about them Blackhawks????? :-)
June 13 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Any anonymous clown can say any crap they like on this website. It's up to the viewers to assign them a meaning. Anyone who doesn't show up identified as the person he or she truly is has NOTHING to say about anything important to me except to define themselves as inept, characterless clowns.
June 13 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts	r E4/E6, YOUR A DISGRACE TO SENIOR SOFTBALL,I LIVE IN TEXAS AS DO ALL OF MY PLAYERS ON OUR TEAM. I CAN'T WAIT TO MEET YOU IN PERSON SO YOU CAN SAY THIS TO MY FACE !! YOU LOW LIFE SCUM !!!
June 13 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Hey Kenny. Slow down. John's got an edge to his sense of humor sometimes but it's still him just trying to make funny and light of what came out of that clown's butt-hole. It's the clown you need to address and if truth be told he's someone who posts a lot on our website just BLEEP-ing around.
June 13 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts	r Joe, You can defend him all you want...he's still scum to me ! Hope all is well with you. mad dog, e-mail me tomorrow !
June 13 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	r #6 I wont play your game. If you take exception to what I have said thats your issue, Mad Dog, Joe and everyone else knows its all in fun. Texans are no more immune to jokes then anyone else, except they are bigger. And I'm far too old to give a crap about what you or anyone else thinks about me, remember, opinions are like aholes, we all have them and they all stink.
June 13 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well guess your bleeping around is ok,but we know you can't see the forest for the trees,with your "i can't have fun unless i'm hitting a ball so hard so i can kill someone". really learn how to play the game instead of just swinging from the the heels. E4/E6,you might of tried to be funny,but on this board maybe not so.
June 13 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Bat cheating, painting, fixing hypocrites who have said they're against bat cheating have no credibility with anyone regarding any aspect of senior ball. No one would or would want to listen to them about anything they had to say and I'd say that would be a majority opinion.
June 14 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts	r Mine don't stink. Neither of them. :)
June 14 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Somebody please explain to me how a bat altering, fixing, painting guy, any of them and we know of more than a few can yell, scream and whine about safety in our sport. Isn't that like an oxymoron or some kind of moron, anyhow? Maybe they feel 'cause they did it now they feel really bad and really get it, like converts at an Bible meeting and wanna testify before they die.
June 14 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Hey Gary. John, you OK? Back to the issues. We need a lively enough bat/ball combo to make our game work well/best for all concerned. We have to be vigilant and alert to what is going on in and around us. Nothing's wrong with making our game safer if it doesn't neuter or destroy our game. The reports, to date, I've heard/seen/watched and experienced on the 52 x 275 ball fall well below our expectations and needs. We need to be ready to chose away from what doesn't work for us and toward what does/will. Screens with lively bats and balls are already in place in many venues and leagues and the reports to date are mostly positive. The bat cheating lethality that is present in softball as some say it is is certainly not definingly prominent in senior ball though some with self interests would say it is. Stay alert and keep an open mind. We don't have to settle for less.
June 14 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts	r Joe thanks for asking, I am fine. However my joking comments above seemed to have spurred some ire among our Texas brothers. Anyone who knows me or of me knows I have the utmost respect Senior Softball and the players within those confines. In that vane let me first apologize to Joe (Einstein) and Bob (Maddog) for what may have been a poor choice of words. To anyone in the great state of Texas who may have taken my joke badly, I also extend this apology to you as well. Anyone wishing to continue to bash me, feel free. I'll measure my words more crefully in the future. John Miller
June 14 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts	r John, I send my apology to you as well ! Sorry I took it wrong and jumped the gun fussing at you and calling you SCUM, my bad and I am trully sorry. Best of luck to you and your team ! Kenny
June 14 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Way to man up and resolve an important issue among us, John and Kenny. That's having character and identity and that's showing up. Way to go.
June 14 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well as usual you run off at the mouth with no proof whats so ever.you can check my bats anytime you want,so keep your slanderous comments to your self,oh i forgot that's the only way you can post,is to be slanderous. maybe you should check your own back yard before you start slinging crap at people you have no clue about.tell your cheating buddies to give them up,most likely your using them also so that would leave you no bats to use.
June 14 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r I didn't mention anyone's name in my last couple of threads yet someone has acted like I was talking about them. Here's an opportunity to say that you don't or have ever knowingly swung, fixed, painted or loaded a bat and swung it, in any tournament. I haven't.
June 14 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r nope and you saying you haven't sounds a bit far fetched with all the dirt floating around the bay area. but as usual you'll sling dirt and try to make yourself look good,which is impossible with your bad team rep.maybe that's why you can't stay on a team for more than a tourney.
June 14 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r Your 15 minutes of fame are up, son. You have no reputation of any positive value to use or lose. You just wanna pull down someone/anyone into that cesspool you call home. Take it off line if you have the inclination or the nerve and I'll tell everyone, you manned up but I doubt you can/will. So long, Bobby. You're a waste of a good man's time.
June 14 Eddie12 14 posts	r #6 The queers and steers joke is decades or maybe even centuries old and used all over the country. I suggest that you just answer it with a loud MOOOOOOOO!
June 14 #6 Men's 60 1173 posts	r Eddie12, If you can read, he referred it to Texas, not all over the country.
June 14 ALLPRO 63 posts	r Would the SSUSA,SPA, LVSSA and other Senior organizations (I know you read this board) care to comment on your specific stance on the 52/275 ball? Are you even remotely considering changing from the 44/375 ball to the 52/275 ball? If so, when. Me and others I am familiar with want to know if we should by new Bats or new Golf Clubs (seriously).
June 15 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts	r That's a great question revealing a widely felt concern of all of ours. We need to know so we can make wise choices now for next year. Johnny Hose, the time/place for a true players association is/would be right now going forward helping us move and navigate through all the 'stuff' going on in and around us. SSUSA, Dave and Terry, as/if you work WITH us you will be rewarded with/by our participation. I see decentralization of softball happening if they go to the 52 x 275 ball with screen leagues, red dot leagues, unlimited arc leagues, with waivers and disclaimers everywhere and players groups depending on their numbers and interests will get to play/use their equipment wherever/whenever they can. Maybe that's not such a bad idea for some of us like in California who have organization and numbers do set up whatever we need but maybe in more sparsely populated places that will kill the game we love to play. All the more reason to get involved and stay involved, NOT ROLL OVER to self interested concerns and individuals no matter what they say or threaten and navigate ourselves and our game as best we can through troubling and troubled seas. Lively bats and balls forever.
June 15 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts	r well joey boy as usual your alligator mouth overloads your hummingbird butt.you have no pride what so ever do you.you would rather call names,slander people with comments with no proof,but hey your the man with no team as your mental make up(and i use the term mental very loosely for you)does not allow you to play well with others(known fact in the bay area).must be a real great team you have put together,who is funding it as we all know you can't,because you have to be paid. unlike you i could careless about that 15 minutes you so wish you could have,but hey take it, your the one that wants all the glory to be a professional softball player.we play a recreational game where death should not be a part of it,but hey what do you care if someone dies.

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Discussion: 52 x 275 ball

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