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Discussion: TOURNAMENT WINNER AUTO MOVEUP - Part II

Posted Discussion
July 27, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1010 posts
TOURNAMENT WINNER AUTO MOVEUP - Part II
Prior thread sent to the showers for 'excessive (180) pitch count' ... Please continue here:
July 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
LeeLee,

To continue from the other thread, another option would be to get motivated, work hard, and if not win at least become more competitive. I always thought it better to win because I surpassed my opponenets rather than their level was artifically brought down to below mine.
July 27, 2012
Marv19
Men's 60
424 posts
LeeLee et all: Without going into a lot of detail here the key is to have a network of knowledgeable people that can objectively rate players. Softball for seniors would be much more even across the board if ALL players were rated. But.... That’s not going to happen. So the best next thing is to rate impact players and do a system where these players get reviewed on a regular bases. I know Ridge is trying this and is setting up a network of knowledgeable objective anonymous people. The key words are knowledgeable, anonymous and objective. That has been one of the hardest things to accomplish getting all three in one person. Its a start and if the two associations shared information and tried to implement a strategy I know it could be done. Consistency would be key as well. Shared information would make the task easier. Its a start and food for thought.

As for golf I shoot in the 70s. I even play on warmer days as well :O)
July 27, 2012
LeeLee
86 posts
Well Marv19 I guess you would have to be giving me some strokes. Gary19, since this a team sport trying to find enough solid players to compete at the 50 Major plus is a little difficult. Don't you think there is limited number of true impact, 5 tool or what ever you want to call them players available? I do so if one teams has the majority of them they are going to be hard to be and I think that is what Tim is trying to saying, spread the talent to have more fairly competive teams in Major Plus rather then 2 or 3 and one of them being far superior than the rest. Food for thought :O)
July 27, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Lee lee, you hit it right on the head.

Obviously senior softball wants to regulate the teams so more teams think they have a chance to compete in whichever Division the are a part of.

I personally believe SSUSA is doing a good job of regulating every Division except Plus.

Impact players lists are great but a ton of work and never completely accurate. Also....as SPA currently has it set up the list is meaningless in regards to regulating a healthy Plus program (no impact player limits in Plus)

For that reason I have suggested an additional criteria for being added to an impact style list....winning a Championship in the Plus Division.

If SPA incorporated this into their guidelines and limited the number of impact players on Plus rosters I am sure there would be a healthier Plus program.

I was part of the USSSA elite/major list committee...it was a ton of work and not above human tampering.....just image if the impact players SPA group was made up of Plus sponsors/players....I'd guess there would be a lot of impact players accidentally left off the list...that's why I believe the Champions of Plus should all be added to a impact players list and only allowed to have 6 of them on a Plus roster till the player is two years into the next age group.

Can anyone come up with a better reason why Plus is dying then the Dynasty's allowed to exist year after year withour restrictions in the Plus programs?
July 27, 2012
donll
55 posts
LeeLee,
You say there is a limited number of true impact players and it would be hard for the major teams to find them. Wouldn't allowing out of region players enlarge the pool they could choose from? It sounds like the good plus teams rosters are set and they might be less likely to use the rule. And if the existing plus teams did use the rule wouldn't that free up another plus player from their team?

Also, is SSUSA considering completely combining the 2 divisions. If so wouldn't some of those lower major teams go to AAA. And then you could drop some of the lower AAA teams to AA. And there would be greater participation at all levels.

Again I will say no sport anywhere forces winning teams to break up anywhere that I can think of. And if you apply Tim's logic to any of the sports we know of (like my Olympic example that he has chosen to ignore)it sounds silly.

Can you really imagine what the country would think, no make that the world, if the Olympic Committee used Tim's logic and asked Michael Phelps to cut off his arm (or tie it behind his back) because he's won too much? It's ludicrous logic.He ignores it because its nonsensical when applied elsewhere.
July 27, 2012
LeeLee
86 posts
Okay Donll,
fisrt thing, have you heard of the salary cap and luxuary tax? Which is used in all major proffesional sports? I wonder why, maybe becaause they are trying to allow the smaller markets to compete? No that wouldn't make any sense, the Steinbrenner Yankees weren't a dynasty, they just bought the best players money could buy. Secondly, major teams don't have the budget or the means of building (ie buy the needed impact players). i don't agree with combining the divisons, all of them are already healthly the only one that isn't is Major Plus. I don't think throwing the top major teams into the Major Plus divison is going to change anything, the same teams or dynasty are going to win and you will see those teams break up to play down a divison like they do now. So how does that help and as for the Micheal Phelps, he his competing in an individual sport and he doesn't compete in every event so there are opportunties for other to become Gold Medalist. Why don't you ask the Sommerville guys if they want to play on a team that they have to pay for everything themselves? I mean know disrepect or negitivity towards Sommerville in any way.
July 27, 2012
swanny22
Men's 55
10 posts
It seems to me that to grow the top division you would need to regulate the # of returning players to any team that wins the worlds in vegas.Tim has the right idea as far as a set #.IOP 7 or 8 would allow you to keep a team together so they could defend their title.IOP AA and AAA are the two divisions closest to each other as far as talent,why not combine them making 3 divisions the AAA teams being moved to M could pickup M players being left behind( or not wanting to move up to M+ by choice ).You will have the same # of teams just more in each div.making it more attractive for teams to travel to these big tourneys.Mangos statement about drawing from a 70mi.area rings hollow to me what is the pop. of that 70mi. area I am guessing equal to most states along with their bordering states.
July 27, 2012
swanny22
Men's 55
10 posts
As far as pulling players from other areas, I am not sure who sommerville has this year but in Years past IOP take the one NORCAL player you guys have been paying for and put him on eastbay or longhorns and I doubt you would be 118-2 or what ever your radiculas record is.
July 27, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
All that being said it was fun being on 12 angry men out North Cal and beat JK inc 3 times.. They had a sick record at the time 4 years ago.. But were the best team in the country then!


Nobody answered my Question from the previous thread... How does Major plus like the way things are in there division????
July 27, 2012
donll
55 posts
LeeLee
Not sure how Michael Phelps is an individual defeats the argument. Substitute the USA Basketball Team or the William sisters or the Russian gymnast teams of the 70’s and 80’s. Telling them that they won too much and have to break up would seem RIDICULOUS. And as far as major league sports there were plenty of dynasties before free agency, actually more than after free agency. The 47-62 Yankees dwarfed anything that happened after free agency (softball’s version of out of region players that hasn’t been allowed to play out yet). That alone destroys Tim’s argument that free agency ruins the sport. In fact baseball has become way more popular after free agency.

And then you can take his logic to college basketball and UCLA’s tremendous dynasty of the 60’s and early 70’s. They won something like 11 out of 12 years. I can see the headlines “Stanford Says UCLA should not be allowed to play this year-they’ve won too much, NCAA Agrees”. Sounds silly doesn’t it. I repeat no sport has ever made a team “break up” for winning.

And as far as salary caps go they apply to ALL teams and never force an individual team to break up. His logic is counterintuitive to everything we have ever been taught about sports or life in America (sounds a bit like a lefty to me). Ask the Northwest Legends if they were forced to break up how many new plus teams would come out of their area. Or would players age up, retire, and fill in on other teams. The idea that they would split up and form 2 teams isn’t based in fact at all-just his opinion. If Tim’s team is forced up will they break up (as seems to be his style) and form 2 major teams? Or will there be 1 less major team in NORCAL?
July 27, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Ok....if you guys have been following what I have been saying about helping the Plus Division grow in a positive direction, it has nothing to do with comparing any other sport.

All you have to do is look at how much healthier EVERY OTHER DIVISION OF SENIOR SOFTBALL IS.

It's not rocket science or trying to reinvent the wheel.

FACT is.....not allowing dominant teams to return to the AA AAA and MAJOR Divisions in senior softball has made all those Divisions grow in the opposite direction that the failing Plus Division has been heading.

Obviously..the only Difference between Plus and every other Division in senior softball is that dynasty's are allowed to stay intact at the Plus levels.

This is not working.

I know it will hurt the feeling of those Plus guys that don't care if they destroy a a Division so long as their dynasty can collect some "rings" but....THOSE DYNASTY'S BEING ALLOWED TO STAY INTACK ARE KILLING PLUS SOFTBALL...

July 27, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Donll, I don't know what our team would decide to do if we were bumped to the current failing Plus Division.....

If we were bumped for winning the world I'd probably say lets do just like we did this year....play one qualifier and go to Vegas.

If we were bumped and didn't win Worlds I'd vote to play NorCal and skip Worlds before I'd move the the crap Plus Division as it now sits...unless SSUSA finds a viable method to regulate the Plus Dynasty's.

I think my views have been supported by all the Major teams that have choosen to move up.

Plus Champions and dynasty's need to be curbed to entice upward movement on the majority of Major teams.

The posters (most of whom represent Plus teams) can try as hard as they want to poke fun at my concept but......a version of my suggestion is working well to regulate every other Division of senior ball...

all I am saying is allow twice as many returning players to dominant Plus teams. Six get to return to the Plus Division they have dominated compared to every other division which allows three players from teams that have proven dominant in the division.
July 28, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Tim, in looking over the "ratings" in NCSSA you have been in the top 5 for about 2 years. That is as far as I printed them out & kept over the years. You currently are #1. So why the big deal? You have your own dynasty there.
There will always be some one better on any given day.
July 28, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Tim, the only DOMINANT team in Major-plus at the 50+ level is the Mavericks. I don't believe that they have lost a national championship tournament in 5 years. That's a dynasty! Having said that, Mango states that all of their players live within a 70 miles radius (with exception of their players outside the borders). Granted there are a ton of players in that 70 mile radius!

The reason why a Major-plus champion continues to play in their same division is because there is no where else for them to go, unlike Major, AAA and AA. I don't think SSUSA wants to make teams disband, but you could make the Major-plus champion the option only to play "exhibition" the next season and then come back the next, if they wanted to do that. They may disband on their own for a year, then reform. Or they play Major-plus/plus, giving an equalizer to the regular plus teams.

These are just a couple of thoughts, but to make any team disband altogether is not fair, no matter how good they are.
July 28, 2012
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
Wow - nearly 200 posts, Plenty opinions being slung, facts few and far between. Here are a few facts that are very pertinent.
Jawood - Consider the following on Sommerville Softball (last known as the Mavericks in 2010),
They are NOT the defending SSUSA 50 Major Plus champions, did not particpate in 2011. Your team beat them in 2011 in Reno. This year, the scourge of senior softball, as you portray them, won 3 of their 4 games in Reno by an average of 3.5 runs. Your team was averaging 30.5 runs a game going into the Reno final. You guys scored 16 runs in the final, is that their fault, should they be broken up on that basis. Contrary to your contention, they have only won 3 of the last 5 SSUSA Worlds. Impressive, but earned on the field As Marv19 points out, they lost to AZ Elite recently in a seeding game, but won the event by demonstrating their exceptional athleticism and conditioning with a one-up homerun rule in place. All with guys that could sleep in their own beds after playing the event. BTW - the core of this current team has been playing together almost 10 years dating back to the 45 division. How dare anyone suggest they should be broken up just to clear the deck for those that would prefer to succeed through legislation, exclusion, and whining instead of athletic performance.

Swing asks - How does the M+ feel about the situation? As manager and player for a 55M+ team, thanks for asking. IT IS NOT BROKEN!! SSUSA decided a long time ago that a Plus division was needed to separate a handful of very good teams. While I've advocated many times in support of merging M+ & M because there are plenty of equalizers in place, I'm not holding my breath and continue to play 12-14 events per year. During the year, we play 50's, 55's, and 60's of either M+ or M ratings, give plenty of equalizer runs, but enjoy the heck out of playing. Every close game, artificially or otherwise, makes us better and gets us ready for the Worlds in October.

Let's look at more facts about this supposedly broken division. Over the last five years, both 50 and 55 M+ divisions have averaged 8 teams each in the Worlds. 55 M+ has featured 11 teams each of the past 2 years. NOT BROKEN, by any means.

SSUSA will either merge or not merge M+ and M. Meanwhile, there is plenty of competitive softball to play, and plenty of opportunity for teams to step up, compete, and improve. IMHO, there are really two divisions, competitors who show up, meet the competition head-on, and compete to the best of their abilities, and whiners that worry about everyone and everything else rather than focusing on improving their own team. Whatever the real agenda of those advocating breaking up of M+ teams, the fact is that the division works just fine as is in SSUSA. So much energy is wasted worrying about rating teams and players. Look in the mirror, nut up, get in better shape and be humbled by the fact that we can all still participate in tournament-level ball in a congenial atmosphere. Over the past 20 years, I've had the good fortune to play for a ASA 40 champ, 2-time ASA 45 runner up, a 50M SSUSA triple crown winner and a SSUSA 55 M+ champion. I do not play for rings, bat bags, tee shirts etc. I play for the privilege of competing against the best, PERIOD. I'm not alone in this view, but enough already with the legislative poor-me approach to success?
JMHO

Don Newhard
Manager/Player
55 M+ Summy's (Sommerville) Nighthawks

July 28, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Don,
I agree about the playing the best you can in order to get better. Personally, and as a team. I have always 'preached' that here. Still too many in their comfort zone and 'fight' to stay there.
But you only mention one tournament. There in I think lies the problem they complain about what about the others to get there.
PHX & Reno primarily have pretty good turnouts, but not always. The 'Q' I believe are the main focus on the thread all around the nation.
July 28, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Don-excellent post.
One assumption that needs to be made here is that a team playing Major Plus-or a Major team on the cusp of being moved up- is primarily there to build the best team possible to compete at that level. That makes the division different from lower divisions where friendship plays a much bigger role.
We just got our butts handed to us by Turn Two in Dalton-they were that far above every team there. So how are we going to compete? I cannot imagine the thinking that says we have to weaken them so we can compete. That's like taking the 5 run equalizer. (Which we did not do in Temecula and beat the Nighthawks and West Coast anyway). I say it is up to us to get better, or make personnel changes to get better, or generally work our way up to their level. Watch what they do and learn how to beat them. I have been on teams that have done that, so I know it can be done. But, if you walk on the field feeling you cannot win-YOU WON'T. And you won't play anywhere near your best. If you sit and complain about a 'dynasty', instead of trying to get better to compete with it, your mental state gets worse when you play them. It takes a lot to create a dynasty-to match one you need the same commitment they had to get there. Why penalize them for getting there?????
July 29, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Well I guess you guys think that playing 3 teams in Major plus 50s here in CA is not broken! And less than 20 teams in the entire Country!

If it's not Broken then Let's not talk about it.. If you think it's broken, I would like to hear some suggestions on how to fix it.
July 29, 2012
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
Swing- I appreciate your posts and you ask good questions. While it would be ideal in M+ to have a number of teams playing every event, that will probably never happen as long as the M+ exists. I think, like Jawood and others, that 3 levels is enough in each age group. For financial and other reasons I don't think M+ will ever be merged with M. Coming up in the 50 M's, there were 25-35 teams every year in Phoenix. That is outstanding, so why mess with it.

Also, Mr. Jawood,I apologize if it seemed I was personalizing on you. You and I most always agree. It's just after 200 posts there were so many inaccuracies about Sommerville Softball and Major Plus. Those are my friends and we share a sponsor. I strongly disagree that it is a sin to win, and that the winners/performers should be punished, further quarantined or disbanded at the M+ level. M+ exists to separate those really top performing teams. It is ridiculous to then suggest that the top teams need to be further handicapped or broken up. I know that is not what you advocate, but the fact that there aren't a lot of M+ teams to play locally is just a byproduct of the creation of the M+. It is impossible and impractical to think that you can have an large M+ division AND placate those that feel they can't compete with the many equalizers like runs per inning and home run rules.

In So CA 55M+ we had 3 55M+ teams, plus a couple that would come over from AZ to play in So. CA. Two of those teams have be reclassified as 55M, so it makes is a little tougher to play strictly within the division locally. We do, however, get excellent competition at this level that makes it well worth playing "qualifier" type events throughout the season. And then when Webbie and his excellent GSF 60's crew shows up, the competition goes way up. Taits, that is why I focus on the 55M+ World and point out it's relative health, all of our play points to being prepared for that event.

As such, I don't characterize the M+ division as broken. It is what it is, and I don't think it can be "fixed" or even needs fixing. There is an old adage - We can have anything we want, we just can't have everything we want. If you accept the fact that you have teams from different age levels and ratings to compete with, and may have to give equalizers (not all teams take them, right Webbie and NCI) you can play a lot of great softball all year and be ready for the Worlds.

Let's Play Ball while we still can! gotta go, have a double header in my Sunday single wall local league.

Don Newhard
Nighthawks
July 29, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
I do have one more comment and it goes back some to another thread. What differentiates a major player and a major plus player? I watched some major ball at Dalton. Some of those major players are huge, hit the ball long, well and often.They are also excellent defensive players. Why are they not playing major plus?? Talent-wise they match up with almost anyone I've seen in M+. If the players that can compete at M+ decided to do so, the division would grow a lot. Swing-aren't there major players out there you know could play M+? Can you get them to consider major plus ball?
The move isn't easy-I've taken my lumps this year, too. But I'm determined to prove I belong here. I know there are other AAA and Major players that could do the same-a lot of them!
July 29, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Tate22. Point taken and understood.

As it is, it will remain the same in all age brackets, unless something is worked out or placed into effect. Right or wrong, if it works or doesn't... kinda like the PPR...
Remember all that crap.

Time frame wise, I think this is the time to work* on it. Mid year is here and new one is only a couple months away.
*work doesn't mean make the cuts\adds now but do your homework in player selection\deselection for that process. NO easy task anyone would want to rush into.
Bottom l;ine is pretty much onle a few want or like the 2-4 team brackets. However with the 4 team you have them used for reference to the moves with limited recourse. more than that, you just get it. 2-3 you just play ands be 'happy' it seems.
July 29, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Webbie25,
I've always believed you only get better by playing the better teams and grow with them.
July 29, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
95 posts
Combine Major Plus and Major. Analyze all existing Major teams and move the least competitive ones to AAA unless they choose to stay at Major. When M Plus and M cross over to play each other use the Major HR Rule with home runs in excess being DBO's (not walks). Give the Major team their option of Home or Visitor. Whoever is visitor is given 1/2 run.
Make California a "Region" just like Texas and Florida. Include Arizona in the Southwest Region.
Do away with the 2 player out of Region rule.
Lastly, give everyone the same budget that Sommerville has. Just kidding, don't get your undies in a bundle Mr. Newhard.LOL!
July 29, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
95 posts
Webbie - I agree with your assessment. There are lots of players who could be playing at the next level. The fact is, not everyone is motivated to play at the next level, and the reasons are many. Some don't want to play in as many tournaments, some enjoy playing with their current team (they have a good chemistry), some enjoy being their team's main power hitter. Remember, we are playing this game for enjoyment. Whatever brings you joy and fulfillment is what you should strive to do. I am always looking to improve but not everyone is motivated to do that. They are just happy to show up and play.
July 29, 2012
donll
55 posts
Swing,
Granted there are fewer plus teams than at most levels. What’s not broken are the teams at the major plus level or their rules. What is broken is the system that allows major teams with 5-7 or more plus quality players like MTC 50’s (and others) to continue to play major. We have a name for this type of behavior-its called sandbagging. Teams that sand bag don’t want to play up at the next level. In a major team’s case that next level would be major plus- the problem with major plus-There is NO SANBAGGING AT MAJOR PLUS.

Tim has done a great job with his posts pointing his finger everywhere except where it belongs-at teams like his. Here’s a thought …for any team that is bumped up from major to plus..instead of allowing 5 or 6 to return to the same team make it 3. Here’s another idea- make homeruns an out in every division but major plus. In the lowest division make them an out and an inning killer.

If all the major teams that were bumped actually tried playing up there would be more teams at the plus level that were of their caliber. Sure there would be the veteran plus teams in the mix that would be/should be better than the recently bumped up teams but after a couple of years in plus they would be better as well. There would be something wrong with the system if a team recently bumped from major dominated the plus division.

July 29, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Tate22, As you have read in my previous posts, I am NOT in favor of disbanding the Mavericks or any other team just because they are great, and they are! We enjoy playing that competition and beating them once in a while with our dinky budget from our little corner of the country. My last post was merely responding to Tim's opinion of breaking up the plus champion and throwing another idea out there for discussion. I did forget that they didn't play in Arizona last year.

SSUSA went WAY overboard this year on the rules of Major-plus, that's the biggest reason why teams don't want to play there, they know they can't compete with that. If they bring back or tone down some of the limits (5 runs per inning, 8 HR's, DBO'S after an "X" number of dead ball singles, and get rid of the 2 players outside the borders, maybe then they can bump some of those other teams up without them folding. SSUSA said they were going to do it, but has not, has made the division even smaller because of it.
July 29, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4253 posts
Referring to the staff post before in another thread:
The "Automatic Rating Increase" policy is the single most misunderstood, misrepresented and misquoted item by players and managers in their public commentary, both here on the Message Board and on-site at almost all tournaments. This is the specific policy from the Team Ratings • Guidelines and Procedures message in the priority section at the top of the Message Board:
__________

• Here are the guidelines for teams winning the largest National Championships of any of the National Summit Organizations (Only the largest tournament of each association results in the following):
1. Teams winning in a division of 6 or more teams and may not appeal their rating increase in the following season.
2. Teams winning in a division of 3-5 teams and may appeal their rating increase in the following season after playing in three (3) tournaments.
3. Teams winning in a division of 2 teams will not be moved up.
4. SSUSA reserves the right NOT to move a team up if there is a preponderance of information showing the team should remain in the original skill level.
__________

By way of further explanation, that means the only four events that will result in the champions receiving an automatic rating move (pursuant to items #1 and #2 above) are:

The LVSSA/SSUSA World Masters Championships • Las Vegas, NV
The SPA National Championships • Dalton, GA
The ISSA World Championships • Manassas, VA
The ISA Senior World Series • Columbus, IN

Teams may be moved up periodically based upon an accumulation of performance data over time, but those are NOT automatic moves based upon winning any particular tournament.

Perhaps the assn could institute another "pilot program" and add about more* tournaments to the mix for 'gathering 'performance data'. Info on that which they do use is sparse but at least the teams\mgrs would know that those would or could be used upfront for it. *Those T's being TOC qualifiers.
If that doesn't move teams around based on performance, not much will.
I know some teams that won the last two years in many events and still where they are. Also know some that were moved up to AAA and complained quite loudly but are doing quite well now and it might be time for all these to MOVE UP>.
Lastly, another team that drops out of them because they might loose them all.
July 29, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Sonds like donll is a little confused, So I will clear a few things up.

1) I am not complaining about any one team, I tried to give ideas to help grow the Plus Divisions.

2) I gave these suggestions (one of which was only allowing X amount of players from a Plus Champion to be able to play on a plus team untill the players reach the next age groip)

3) I did this after reading many posts about what I consider a failed notion that merging Plus with Major will make everything much better, including one that says an association has even been talked into trying it.

4) Dons delusional version of our MTC Team as some sandbagging Plus team.

We played In the Major Worlds two years ago and went 2-4, we played in western nationals two years ago and went 3-3,

we played in the cal cup two years ago and went 1-2 in the round robin.... The two loses to Plus teams getting an extra fielder/ then in our own Major bracket we went 2-2.

Last year we went to Reno where we went 3 wins-4 loses...

Last hears PHX Major Worlds 2-0 in the round robin and 2-2 in bracket play tying for 12th place.

We have 8 players from two seasons ago and nine players from last year.

This year we have played three NCSSA events east bay oldies (plus team) won the one tourney we were both in.... Barons (major) won the only tourney we both were in.... We won the third even we played in....beating a plus 55 team with a few pick up players.

Somehow.... I guess donll thinks attacking me/us will turn the heat away from the OBVIOUS FACT that allowing the same teams year after year to return completly intact to Plus ball after dominating the Division should NOT NEGATIVELY effect the Plus Division in the same negative way it would effect any other Division of senior ball if the same teams were allowed to dominate the AA AAA or Major Divisions OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I have no clue just who's ox's I am goring bringing up the obvious fact that letting domInant teams return year after year to Plus ball is having the exact effect everyone knows it would have if SSUSA allowed the same thing to happen in any of their other Divisions.

It's my view that if you win/dominate a Division you get bumped up.... If your in the top Division (plus) and you win/dominate your roster is forced to make some major adjustments for the good of the health of the Division.

Unlike Don (or so it sounds) I support moving teams up the ladder/or breaking them up "some" if they have proven to be to powerfull while playing in their own Division.... As its being done now...... There is a fair ladder to climb until you go from Major to Plus..... As its currently being allowed to exist????? The Plus run of the ladder has proven to be to far of a reach for most major teams....

Senior softball has to figure out how to bring Plus to a level that entices Major teams to move up in the manner they have made Major a Division that AAA can move up to.

I have very heard of a AA AAA MAJOR team being 118-3 in class... Maybe donll can filll me in on all those teams???

July 29, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
don11 I can't argue with your point at all.... Tim has not played any SSUSA saction events and only one NCSSA event.. he has tried to pick up 2 more Major plus players to go with the 7 or so major plus players he has already on his roster.. he has said he hasn't won anything,however he hasn't played anything either! If you called that Sandbagging I would tend to agree with you... My team has taken a different route.. We have kept 8 to 9 players from last year and added about 3 new guys that are works in progress... we have at best 3 major plus player types on our team and the rest are major or lower... We are playing everything that we can in NCSSA and SSUSA.. and we are debating about going to Spa in Southern CAl. Tim is trying to fly under the Radar but everyone knows what going on! I just think if I'm going to load a team I'm going to the Top division to showcase it... I had hopes for my team to grow and go there, but we are a ways away from that and need a few more players!
July 29, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Webbie, I hear what you are saying about the M+ players playing in AAA and major levels... they have their reasons... I have been asked by two major+ teams here in CA to play 50+ However, I chose to stay with my team for a couple of reasons.. I have great teammates that I wanted to stay with and grow with, I also found the competition challenging enough at the major level! At the end of the day, the Major + 50 division in California Is a joke to me, I talk to few of my buddies on East Bay Oldies and the Longhorns... They were getting tired of playing the same three to 4 teams with the tiny brackets.. Just didn't seem worth it! I think you find a lot of + guys playing at the major level or dropping to the major level because of the more interesting division. I'm having fun in this division. We are not winning everything but we sure are competing, the competition is excellent IMO!
July 29, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Actually Rich, our team set its schedule at the beginning of the year and stuck to it..

like many other senior teams we chose not to run around playing two and three day events all the time....we have played three NorCal senior events/not one, and plan to play about three more to go along with four one day events and one three day event ...Vegas

Would you care to share with everyone how your Baron team fared when you played against us this season?

I am sorry we didn't have room for you if you wanted to come over this winter....maybe that's what's fueling this delusional view of our MTC team...

Lets see..how about we look at what has actually happened on the field instead of what could go on, on paper in your mind.......

This season your Baron team wins the one tourney we both enterd, your Barons team with three plus players (by your account) beats our team (with by your count 7 or so Plus players) by four runs while you didn't have to hit in the open inning...

Your Baron team with three plus players comes in top SIX at 2011 PHX Major Worlds.

Our MTC team with 7 plus players (by your count) comes in tied for 12th at the same Phx Major Worlds.

Your Barons team destroys the team that knocks us out of PHX Worlds in their next game.

Your Barons team at Western Worlds 2011 beats/knocks our MTC team out of the tourney 27-9 (WITHOUT the Barons hitting in the open inning). We have about 8 of the same players now.

You say your team has taken a different route then us by keeping 8-9 guys and adding three.....we have 90% of our last year Phx World 12th place team returning...we have added three players that are ranked major and one new fifty year old.... How is that any different then the Barons?

Can you please explain to me how our MTC team has achieved anything remotely close to earning your insinuations of us being Plus sandbaggers?

Could it be that your hurt that two of your best softball buddies decided to join us this year? But really? MTC "Plus" while your Barons have been better then us on the field for the last year and a half? I think your being delisional in your evaluation, based on actual on field performance...

There is a fine line between reality and delusion for some?

I think you better start looking at what actually has happened in REAL EVENTS PLAYED? cal cup, western nationals, ncssa finals (you placed second to nazzereno) , Phx worlds, Fremont this year....

The records show in the last five event we both have played in your team has done better then us.

Choosing to not spend a ton of time playing three day events should not be seen as anything other then a choice men make that want to/ have to do more then play softball.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I personally would choose to never play any three day event other then a WORLD TOURNEY, until I retire.

I see the Reno, Cal-Cup, Western Worlds and such, as something I might like to do when I retire, and am looking for things to do.

Right now with work and family Commitments I, and many of my teammates find those three day events to time consuming, heck...Some of us even see the ncssa two dayers as taking to much family/work time.....and NO this is not to demean those events or those that like to play them.....they are just to time consuming for me to do often.

Again.....I am sorry we had to many guys, if you wanted to come over with Perry and Mike, but...we were not going to cut anyone...

On the issue of us sandbagging thing...maybe you can validate your views with actual on field results...but....from what has actually been recorded I think the only possible way for this to happen is while you're dreaming in your sleep.
July 30, 2012
Allan55
79 posts
Donll,

I have a very simple question. How do you move up a team that hasn't reached Sunday in the World Tournament the last two years?
July 30, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Swing-thanks-that is exactly the point I made in another thread. The fire that exists in a lot of younger players to reach the top and compete against the best is just not as hot for Seniors. And that is alright. There is a tremendous amount of guys that could play Plus, but don't for their reasons and that, as much as anything, may keep the numbers of Plus teams down.
July 30, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Webbie, I think that's a lot of the difference. Steepen plus attitude and every other dado idiom of senior ball.

I think there are many reasons plus is failing....

1) for many, being good at softball is not as important as it was when we were young. Most/some (me) of us have realized other priorities should have been put ahead of softball when we were young and slowly learned where a hobby should rank in the list of commitments.

2) since softball has been put down the list of commitments for many of us....The need to practice and sweat for a hobby that's suppose to be for recreation time fun has been drastically reduced in priority.... This lack of practice shows in on field production. There are still some players driven to stand out in senior softball but..... A huge majority of us playing seniors are not driven to dominat.

3) I would say the Plus dynasty's have two kinds of players on their teams....... The few special athletes that time has not taken a toll on yet and others that commit many hours to working on their game between events. These two type players are rarer then when we were young....

4) the new Plus rules are not enticing to play considering how the plus teams are not regulated.

5) the talent divide between Plus and Major is way to wide considering how senior softball has allowed dynasty's to stay intact even after showing they are dominant.

6) as many of us have aged we have become much more interested in playing with guys we enjoy hanging with and less driven to win in softball.
In my youth I put up with teammates I would never want to play with
now.... Back then it was about winning...... Now it's a complex different view of the hobby I am playing.... Senior ball is not just about winning, for most events we play in we get to play at least five games no matter what. As long as I am on a team that's "kinda competitive" I'd enjoy going 0-5 with guys I like.
July 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
LMAO @ Timmy! I strive one day to be good enough to play for your MTC 50s plus team one day.. I will continue to hit twice a week to hone my skills in the field and batting.. Maybe you can take a look at me next year.. I am proud of Mike and Perry for stepping it up to a team of your caliber...


Timmy, don't get mad that you are not flying under the radar... Everyone knows the caliber of players you are assembling and just because we have out played you guys doesn't mean that you are not Major Plus! Keep rolling in the 40s and not flying under the radar.. we know the truth!

I will go look for some Alzheimer's medicine so delusional problem!

July 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
OOps so I can take care of my Delusional problem
July 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Oops, I forgot one thing during my delusional period Timmy, Thanks for pointing out our Baron successes compared to your teams lack of success.. I feel I made the right choice to stay put... I feel even better about my team after you pointing it out to me.. Damn Alzheimer's is getting to me.. better go find the meds!
July 30, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Alzheimer's ? Really!

That's the best you can come back with when comparing how our MTC team has done with The Barons head up?

Maybe alzhimers is the reason you forgot how your team has done in the events both our teams have played in....I must have mis-diagnosed your illness as delusional.

And yes....our teams both have most of the samemplayerson their rosters.

Now let's get back to the topic about the reality that Plus is broken, maybe you an DREAM UP a solution.
July 30, 2012
donll
55 posts
Allan 55
"I have a very simple question. How do you move up a team that hasn't reached Sunday in the World Tournament the last two years?"

Answer- there could be a couple of reasons-1)overall strength of team and number of major plus caliber players. 2) Team performance (won/loss, average margin of victory) over the entire year not just the world series. 3) team adds new major plus players to go along with an already borderline team.

Remember winning the worlds is an AUTOMATIC move up not the ONLY move up. That would mean you would only move up 1 team a year. And that wouldn't be in keeping with Tim's desire to grow the major plus division. Especially if you use his ridiculous idea about disbanding whoever wins the major plus worlds. Add 1 team, disband another - you do the math. His lack of logic is amazing.
July 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Yep tim! I am keeping it light! I could tear your post apart, but choose not to. real issue is major plus, and how to deal with it.
July 30, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Actually Donll if all the senior associations bumped up the winners of major Worlds and The Plus champions could only bring back with six guys, I think plus would be in a much better state then it is now..

I do agree with your bump up possibilities except I would include the same thing to Plus teams that meet your other criteria.
I also would point out its real hard to evaluate talent level in events where many top teams are not present....
July 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Tim, Donll sees it right. I think what he's saying "overall strength of team and number of major plus caliber players. 2) Team performance (won/loss, average margin of victory) over the entire year not just the world series. 3) team adds new major plus players to go along with an already borderline team." Makes perfect sense..

However, there are teams like yours that refuse to play anything to gauge what they are capable of...

The only Criteria Senior Softball has with you is who's on your team! Not what you have done..

You are right about not winning anything but have not tried to either! You have to play to win... Staying stealth in 40s backyarders is what it is! Great move by the way..

To tell you the truth Tim, if they allowed you to pic up the two Demolition guys, I would feel more strongly about this.. Your team is as it stands, a real good major team!

If you guys play well you have a chance to win and if you play OK you have a chance to get beat at the major level... Barons are the same boat. If your roster stays with what you have, I have no gripes about you playing in Majors! Picking up the two demolition guys was a game changer!

I hope this makes you feel better.:-)


July 30, 2012
AndyC
9 posts
I have never posted before but I cant help but agre with Tim about the plus division. I agree with Tim that Sommerville Softball should be broke up to make it more enticing to the major teams to move up and more fair for the existing major plus teams. I don’t know how it can be good for Senior Softball to allow them to continue, come on 118-2? Really? That’s good for Senior Softball? And they were worse in the 45’s when they were Courtesy Auto. They won for something like 6 years in a row. And I don’t believe they ever lost a game in the 45’s. Forget about 2 losses. How about zero losses in 6 years of World Series Play! And in the 45 we had to play them with no run caps, although there were homerun limits 3 then an out. But they killed everyone. How fun is that? After all this is a recreational sport.

And Mango says all there guys were fron souther California within 70 miles of each other. So what? It doesn’t matter WHERE there from. Who cares if they all came from? They could all come from the same city somewhere in North Dakota with a population 500 for all I care?

They shouldn’t be allowed to play on the same team anymore! Maybe make a rule that no more than 3 of them can be on the same team. They killed the 45’s and now they are doing the same things to the 50’s. Who cares what they call themselves, Courtesy Auto, Mavericks or Sommerville..enough is enough. Brake the team up with any rules you need to so it can restore the health of the plus division.
July 30, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
Leave the M+ division the way it is. I for one am looking forward to playing Sommerville. It lets you know where you stand as far a team goes. If Major teams that win the Worlds don't want to move up then they will break up just like they do now. There is only 4 Super teams in youngs mans ball, why should senior ball be any different. I like the Plus game just the way it is. Sure I would like more teams, but back in the day I also wanted more teams. It is , what it is. Leave it alone. There will always be a Top division. There will always be dominant teams.
July 30, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Actually Mario, being an old ASA guy I thought you would know ASA limits listed players in its top Division now. They are even considering bringing back Metro restrictions.

Here is The question...... Why isn't it ok to give dominant Major teams the chance to gone back year after year to the major Division?
July 30, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
What Tim has forgot to mention is the formatts in which we have played. SSUSA in Major up until now was 5 hrs and out. NCSSA its 1 hr and equalizer, both which negates the power of MTC 50. Barons would play small ball and force his team to play defense. With the rule changes in SSUSA for Major Tim knows he can out power most teams, thats why he's laying low for Las Vegas.

Barons has 3 rated Major Plus players. One is legit, another never saw the field with his team to earn his Major Plus ranking, the last is 65 years old. Our 3 pick ups for this year were from AAA. Barons is, timely homeruns, base hitting and defense. We consider ourshelves a "true" Major team.

By the way I was in the 40's with Byrons and MAC , 50 Major Plus with MAC2. We were one of the few teams that beat the Mavericks to win a tournament (Palm Springs). I know a Major Plus team when I see it.

July 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Left fielder from the Reds is still talking to himself about that ball you hit him... LOL
July 30, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
That was fuuny.
July 30, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
That was fuuny.
July 30, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Funny!
July 30, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
that ball moved 30' left to right. Amazing.
July 30, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
Tim, Have not played ASA for a long time now, there rules don't affect me anymore. And they should let the Major teams come back year after year no matter how many championships they win!!!!!
July 30, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
The playing field will never be level!!!!
July 30, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
True Mario, if you think it's not broke then don't fix it.. Tim is worried about his next move... I think he should worry about his next tourney.. he dropped down from major plus three years ago and they haven't moved him yet.. he hasn't won anything by his own admission and yet he is worried about his team getting bumped.. I think if he lays off the Major plus additions, he won't really have anything to worry about.. if he stacks that team for worlds and does well, then he has something to worry about!

Either way Timmy, you will have to do well before you move. And if you over stack your team you will move.. it's a matter of what you do either way.. Critera for you to move up is in your own hands and you can get there multible ways based on SSUSA's Move up critera!I

One thing I will say is I don't hear any Major plus guys complaining about their division so why should any of us? East Bay Oldies have been hanging in that division for a while and have had success and failure! It's in there character to play the best and sometime beat them.. I don't think Breaking up teams is the way to go, but I would make some changes to the regions, so that we could stop the flown in impact players to the teams with the money!
July 30, 2012
Bigon
10 posts
The playing field could and should be leveled for major plus.The bordering states rule should go by the way,,and the country split into 4 regions. Mountain time zone west,,70 million,,,central time zone 76 Million ,,,split the eastern time zone on the northern border of Kentucky and Virgina.
July 31, 2012
Allan55
79 posts
Donll,

I never said anything about moving up only one team. I said, "How can you move up a team that hasn't reached Sunday in a World Tournament?" If a team doesn't advance to Sunday, they are out of the top eight. I know you don't advocate moving up teams that finish lower in the World Tournament...while allowing higher finishing teams to stay in the Major division. Each year, the top TEAMS in the World should move up.
I also feel performance on the field should be the deciding factor over what players a team has on paper. After all, that's why "we play the game."
I agree with your factors determining a move up in the ranks to a point. Win/loss record and margin of victory are important. However, win/loss record and margin of victory against AAA teams is not valid. Major teams should beat AAA teams. And Major teams will most likely play more AAA teams than Major teams, due to the fact there are not as many Major teams.
Tim indicated his record against tougher competition. It has not been impressive. I don't know of any team that would be happy getting bumped up with that record.
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Allen, that was last years record... his team this year is different... He added three players and was looking to add two major plus players!

He has not been playing SSUSA or Northcal events on premise that he doesn't want two day tourneys, but the real reason is for fear of being moved up!

He doesn't want to show his cards before Worlds! Now he is looking for a softer landing in Major Plus!

Bottom line, If Tim stays pat with what he has, he won't have a problem with anyone complaining about his team.. If he added two major plus players to a already good major team he would have a problem!


Allen 55, I believe a team should be moved up based on what they have done on the field.. However, if you go stealth and don't play any SSUSA and only one early Tourney in NCSSA these sactions only have what's on paper!

July 31, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Wow..... It's good to see all those guys crying about merging major with Major plus are now silently sitting back and saying lets just let it be like it is.

Amazing...thinking there is a concept that could
Make plus better but break up those little dynasty's sure quiets down those guys wanting the whole major program to beat up on.

As I see it....... If you plus guys want to stay in your little brackets that's fine. Leave everyone else alone.

........if you want plus to enlarge you need to figure out a way to restrict the dominant teams and turn over the top yearly....

The current State restrictions are not working to grow Plus....

I mentioned another option. One that mimicks every other Division of senior ball.....

those other Divisions are not having the same problem as Plus for one reason and one reason only..... Senior softball has not figured out how to teliminate dynasty's. So the top can turn over regularly.
July 31, 2012
Bigon
10 posts
Bordering states here are the facts about bordering states.Arizona 5 states bordering 56 million,,Flordia 2 states bordering 33 million,,Virgina 5 states 30 million ,,Maine 1 state 2.6 million,,,Montana 4 states 4.6 million,,,Washington state 2 states 12.1 million. If ssusa let major plus go to 4 regions it would eliminate dynasties and would allow major teams to combine to try major plus ball instead of disbanding.Maybe take the top 6 players on each team to major plus,and let the other players stay in the major rating so no one gets left out ssusa has the rosters so it could be monitored.
July 31, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Wow..... It's good to see all those guys crying about merging major with Major plus are now silently sitting back and saying lets just let it be like it is.

Amazing...thinking there is a concept that could
Make Plus bigger and better but break up those little dynasty's sure quiets down those guys wanting the whole major program to beat up on.

As I see it....... If you Plus guys want to stay in your little brackets that's fine. Leave everyone else alone. Although that's still not fair to the other Plus teams that are not dynasty status.... I guess the fight will have to wait till those regular Plus teams stand up and ask for changes.

........if you want plus to enlarge you need to figure out a way to restrict the dominant teams and turn over the top yearly....

The current State restrictions are not working to grow Plus....

I mentioned ano option. One that mimicks every other Division of senior ball.....

those other Divisions are not having the same problem as Plus for one reason and one reason only..... Senior softball has not figured out how to eliminate dynasty's. So the top can turn over regularly.
July 31, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
You're the only one crying! The others are making statements. You've been crying for a long time. Win, get moved up, then cry. You have a strong team and are afraid to win because you will get moved up and not allowed to remain where you can dominate. Get real.
July 31, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim my guess is the major plus guys are sitting back quietly because your idea is ridiculous-doesn't have any data to support it, and you just don't see how ridiculous your idea is unless it is applied somewhere else like the Olympics, college basketball, MLB etc. What's your data? Are there more or less plus teams at the SSUSA worlds than say 6 years ago before the scary Sommerville/Mavericks showed up with their horned helmets and torches ready to burn the villages? I think they had 4 teams in 2006 before thay started their run. Maybe averaging 7 or 8 last couple of years. This despite tougher economic times and increased travel costs. If the dynasty ruined it wouldn't they have fewer teams? Oh sorry, using basic math and logic which are not supportive of your "idea".




July 31, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim,
My guess is not too many plus guys post on here for starters and those that read it see you as nothing more than a Don Quixote like character on a fools quest attacking imagined or misinterpreted events.. . in this case "dynasty's killed the plus division". If only we could get rid of the defending champ then we could compete. That's bs. You whine about having to play the Longhorns and they haven't won any worlds.

You also claim there needs to be something to "entice you to move up". Let's face it that's bs. You will NEVER move up on your own. The only way you will move up is kicking and screaming. When asked what you would do if you were moved up you said it depends on whether or not you won the major world series- Why? Your team is your team. Would they become magically better if they win the world? No, we all know what you will do- what you have always done-break up and find a way to play down. Which by the way-its that attitude and behavior that is one of the main contributor to the lesser numbers at the top division. Fear.

In addition to fear the other reason often given is the lack of teams at the plus level. So here’s a real idea- why not move up the top major teams. That addresses that part of the problem (lack of teams). It would also address the other part(fear). You always want someone to go into the dark scary woods with you. It could help sooth the fears of some major teams since they would not have to play the veteran plus teams every game. There would be a mix of teams- sort of like it is in the major division now where some are stronger than others. The only difference is major teams that are used to being at the top would now find themselves occasionally more challenged. The next move is to do the same thing for AAA up to major. AA teams could then join the lower AAA teams.

Here’s something else to think of. Major teams getting bumped up would now have their rosters opened up. No restrictions on the number of plus players they could pick up. So Tim could pick up those 2 players he was trying to add. Or they could adopt Bigon’s idea about regions to add even more players.

Nowhere in here is anyone asked to break up. When you break up a team you don’t magically get 2 more teams-remember the cookie example. What you are doing here is taking all the teams and instead of dividing by 4 you are dividing by 3. This means more teams in all divisions. It’s not magic-its simple math.

Tim these are real ideas that could contribute to the overall growth of all Senior Softball. And nowhere in here are you trying to increase growth by getting rid of teams.
July 31, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
donll, I am a Major Plus player and I try my hardest not to post on this board, but some things just go right thru me. You hit the nail right on the head about teams not wanting to move up. They will always have to be forced up. Then, like you said, they will break up and play down. I did not understand that at first, but now I do. Some guys don't want to play up because ...
fill in the blank. Whatever the reason, If you don't want to be in the Plus division, I don't want you in it. The reason being all that team will do is grip and complain about having to move up. So, the idea about regions might work. I know for sure it would make us a better team because right now we are all bordering states. Maybe we could get sponsorship like the Sommerville if they went to regions.
July 31, 2012
Marv19
Men's 60
424 posts
As an owner of an association I find most of the posts on this subject are very informative. It also gives everybody a feel for the passion that is senior softball. If you don't think so look at the hits. I think most do not post but read. I have no dog in the hunt and favor no one. But the basic problem is the system is flawed. When I was at the annual board of directors meeting of SPA in March as a guest this subject was discussed at great length. Under the present system there will never be a solution and this will go on forever. All you will do is band aid the problem and I'm afraid players and teams will suffer in the long run. It will take thinking outside the box. You may view what I'm about to say as over simplification and too technical all at the same time. But until you start to develop a system that centers on the solution you'll not get anywhere. Think of Bowling or Golf. Both have a system of handicapping players. Bowling for instance has the ABC. Hypothetically lets advance the debate 5 to 10 years and some very ingenious person or persons forms an association or business for the sole purpose of collecting batting averages. Lets call it the SSBAA or Senior Softball Batting Average Association for lack of a more sexy title. This organization is contracted by and or sanctioned by the major associations and independent regional associations to collect and compile data from all tournaments big and small. Then teams are formed using a mathematical formula base initially on offence only. As a team you're formed by a ceiling of points. Like in bowling you're allowed for the sake of argument 750 or 800 points. That is the total you can have for a team to enter a league. So if a softball team had a point total to achieve and it couldn't go over it then the manager would have to put a team together based on a formula of that total. Major teams have a total and so on down the list. Then when you went to a tournament every player would have a SSBAA card. That card (remember five to ten years from now) had a bar code on it. The card would have all your Softball data on it as well. The tournament directors and staff would be outfitted with a smart phone. The phone would then pick up the information from the official scorekeepers and into the data base it would go. Or one step further. The scorekeepers have iPads with a scorekeeping ap. The data is sent instantaneously to the data bank. Scorekeepers would be a must. As an association I would have to get them just like I get umpires. These are the same type of people that we remember use to to sit for 5 hours keeping score at the bowling alleys to make a few extra bucks because they were retired and needed grocery money. (Time flys doesn’t it) We as a team would pay a fee for objective and non biased score keeping. Eventually each and every player would have an official batting average. This average would be used to make up a team for tournament play. I know its simple but technical at the same time. But guys we live in a technical world and this new and innovative technology will eventually solve or at least lead the way to a solution to this dilemma. It would take some courage on some peoples part and a whole lot of cooperation by associations both big and small. I know it can be done. Time will tell.
July 31, 2012
Bigon
10 posts
Donnie from turn two stated where are the teams that won spa,and ssusa from the past 8 years.Teams were allowed 5 plus players on a major team and did not make the move,,2012 that number was cut to 3 plus players i think the light is on but nobody is home.If a team does not move up with 5 plus players do you think they are going up with 3. Like Marv19 said same old thing get out of the box there are ways to fix it. Remember we are older and wiser now.When i was a kid an old man told me a wise man changes his mind a fool never does.
July 31, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
Why is everyone saying the Plus Division is broke? Its not broke, it works for the few who have risen to the challenge. We plus players like it the way it is, leave it alone.
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
well Mario, three teams in California isn't broke? Just doesn't seem fun to play the same three teams!IMO If you like it, good for you. I would like to see it get better with more teams and not throwing one major team at a time to the top of the food chain.
July 31, 2012
the wood
1071 posts
Bigon:
In terms of thinking outside the box... I'm not sure that you fully understand the reasoning behind the reduction of the 'allowed M+ players' from 5 to 3 (and to 2 in 2013). This change wasn't made because of the many voluntary move ups (from M to M+). It was made for the contrary... too few team voluntarily made the move.

WTF, Folks! What ever happened to being as good as you can be? Turn Two has done this for quite a while and we've finished second to them many, many times (more than we like). So maybe we should have hired F. Lee Bailey to legislate us a ring?
How many of you guys that are advocating 'break up the winners' have even played M+? If so, how long?
Bob Woodroof
July 31, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
3 Major Plus teams in 1 state is awesome. We don't have 3 Plus teams within 4 or 5 states. So, no its not broke. We all would like to see more teams, but I for one don't want some watered down version and still call it Major Plus. Look at all this chat, mostly from the Major guys not wanting to move up. I say let them alone and leave us alone.
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Mario, I hear what you are saying and you are agreeing with me on the lack of teams.. I'm more concered with lack of teams more than anything... I always relish the chance to knock the Dynasty type team off their perch.. We did it with 12 Angry men against JK INC. They were just like the Mavericks! I had hope of my Barons team moving up to M+. We are still a work in progress with about 4 to 5 Triple A players! I still believe there are a few things that could be done to grow the division a bit.. that's all I'm trying to convey.
July 31, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
Swing, I'm with you. I would love for them to grow the division, but I'm also a realist and I believe that what we have is as good as its going to get. They are trying to grow the division by the auto move up rule. But the National Champs keep finding a way to stay down. Whether its by breaking up or by losing their way back down. So what do we do......just keep playing the teams that want to be there. This is not just a Plus problem. In 2010 I played AAA and there are a bunch of those teams that should be in the Major division. We also played 5-6 Major teams that year and beat all but 1 of them. Even if you take away the equalizer runs we beat them straight up. At the end of the year I told my team mates that we should move up to Major and they all freaked out and said that they wanted to stay at AAA. So, I moved up, they stayed in AAA. I don't understand that, but it is what it is.
July 31, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Mario, you and I apparently think alike. I don't get the 'tear down the top team' mentality. How does that make me better? How does that make my team better? I want my team to get better and beat them!
Wood-I know you know the guys I play with now at GSF-I sure don't hear them crying to break up Turn Two. The talk is how do we get better to beat them. I don't EVER want to beat a team because I was part of what tore them apart. I want to beat them because I got BETTER. And, I would rather play a highly competitive 5 team bracket, than a bracket filled with walkovers!
Bigon-you talk population? Check out what the state of Tennessee has to draw from. It will amaze you! I think I figured more than 35 million!
July 31, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
347 posts
Webbie, I could not have said it any better.
July 31, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
Tenn 6 million Cal 37 million that's why flying guys north and south in CA to make a Major plus team is a head scratcher.
July 31, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Actually..... We all know the states thing is senior softballs attempt to regulate Plus teams.... When the states rule is not good enough..... Another method is needed..... A list of Champions and regulating how many get to play on a roster is worth trying.....
I will agree with one thing posted above...... As the flawed plus program is now going..... No one is volunteering to move up....
Aug. 1, 2012
Allan55
79 posts
The Wood,

If teams with 2,3,4, or 5 major players were moved up by rule next year, wouldn't that be one-sided, due to the fact major plus teams have 7,8, or more plus players on thier rosters? That appears to be no better than combining M and M+.
Aug. 1, 2012
bullet
Men's 55
130 posts
When a team wins a national tourney (ISA,Northern,Southern ) they should be MADE to play up in ANY tournament they enter for the rest of tha year. With the exception of the World in either SSUSA or SPA.That way they could go for a national championship in the division they won in.This would also give more teams the chance to win a major championship and then more teams would be moved up.
Also SSUSA MUST get on the same sheet of music, if one moves a team up both need too.
Aug. 1, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Whatever the answer is to how you grow Plus in a healthy direction.... part of the equation will include limiting the ability for Dynasty's to stay intact year after year.
Aug. 1, 2012
the wood
1071 posts
Allen,
I did not create these rules, I'm just stating them as they exist. As to why they exist... I can only speculate that SSUSA is making the effort to discourage teams from disbanding after the bump to M+. Along with this is the fact that hardly any teams voluntarily move up to M+.
Whether it causes it to be 'one sided' for the new M+ team is really a function of what that team does from that point forward. I'm not one who believes that M+ players are all 5 tool players. Nor do I believe that HRs rule the roost in M+. I also do not believe that SSUSA's current system of rating players based solely on roster affiliation is reasonable.
To me, the difference between a M and a M+ player is game presence... not skill set. It isn't a 'punt, pass & kick contest'... it's about execution. This is why Turn Two has been so dominant over the past 8 years.
I've heard for many years that... we can't play M+ because we don't have enough HR hitters... or... because we have no sponsorship money. Both are only partially relevant... ever hear of the Old A's? How much sponsorship did they have and how many nationals did they attend every year (rhetorical)? However, the argument about 'out of area' players does have merit, IMO.
Allen, the problem about M+ started 30+ years ago... a lot of guys prefer to be large fish in small ponds. Hit HRs in AAA, etc. Use 1.21 bats but don't play the big boys. This will continue to be a problem even if assns busted up the winners, which I definitely do not advocate.
This is probably more response than you wanted but it isn't single faceted problem. I've been involved in senior softball since '97 so I've witnessed a lot.
BW
Aug. 1, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Wood, I noticed you mentioned The Old As.

They are another example of how the senior "states rules" failed in regulating the Plus Division enough to entice others to move up (think they can compete)
.
I know many of the Old As.... Played league with many of them last week. Worked with a few of them on their softball swings when they started playing senior ball.

I see any group that Dominated their Division like the Old As did as BAD for the program.

Dominant teams left intact sour the appetite for the majority of teams from lower levels to move up.... This IS the reason all senior associations move dominant teams out of the Divisions they have dominated....

I am doing nothing more then suggesting the senior associations treat the Dominant Plus teams like hey do every other dominant team in every other Division.

Give them a choice to stay together with a limited amount of returning players or break up.

Every team that's bumps currently has the same option.... If they move up they usually have to have a better roster (cut current players), if they stay in the Divisin they have dominated they can only return with X amount of players.
Aug. 1, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
Doesn't winning by surpassing your opponents feel better than by bringing the competition down below you?
Aug. 1, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Actually Gary, to lose a close competitive game with guys I like outweighs beating the crap out of a team.
I don't have any fun beating on lesser teams.
That might be what separates the guys that want to turn over the top compared to the guys that get off on being part of a team that dominates yearly.


Aug. 1, 2012
the wood
1071 posts
Tim:
Did the old A's. Lose their spot at the top because of F Lee bailey or did someone beat them? Since you know them why don't you tell me? BW
Aug. 1, 2012
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Wow, this is an interesting topic. Marv19 is on the right track in my opinion. I really respect all of the opinions given here so far and I appreciate everyone looking for ways to make Senior Softball better. In my mind there is only one acceptable reason for playing down, sandbagging or staying below the proper level of play and that is friendship/family. I think all can respect that and understand that a plus player playing down to be with his friends and family is acceptable. I should note that I am interested in finding a solution to grow the Major+ program also. I would like it to happen without having to disband any Plus Teams. We use composite bats right? How about we use modern technology as Marv suggests? Here is my proposal.
Rate players at 1,2,3 or 4 with rating classes as follows:
1 =AA, 2 =AAA, 3 =Major and 4 =Major+
Limit the number of rated players allowed on each classifications roster.
-AA would allow no more than 3 players rated 2 with no 3 or 4’s.
-AAA would allow no more than 3 players rated 3 with no 4’s.
-Major would allow no more than 3 players rated 4.
-Major+ would be open with region restrictions. I like the 4 region suggestion.
All Senior Orgs provide scorekeepers, stat tracking software and a database of ALL members.
-This allows statistical rating of players which would rate them by offense.
-Some software allows for adding point performance for defensive play.
-This would enable the Orgs, not the managers to determine individual awards such as MVP, All Tourney, etc. and establish clear, consistent criteria for these awards.
Statistical data allows elimination of sandbagging at all levels and properly moves players to the correct level of play.
All levels should improve in parity and grow.
Sorry this is so long.
George
Aug. 1, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
George, that would be a great start... FYI you are a one.. LMAO
Aug. 1, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Respect everyone's opinion too, but can't agree with the region idea. If there is going to be a Major-plus division, you can't allow the teams with the money (not all M+ teams have it) to pluck players from areas that other Major-plus teams play. Some regions only have so many Major-plus players and those teams need those players if they are going to be forced into playing in this division.
Aug. 1, 2012
Bigon
10 posts
Webbie,, Its all about opportunity whether there is a plus team from there or not at least they have the opportunity,,,more people more softball players,,and hopefully more that can travel to tournaments.Less population and theres a good chance theres less players. I am not in favor of breaking up teams,,can not figure why it is being done to the everyone except plus. .The problem is theres no where to go most plus teams have a full roster,.Iknow where some have gone they play rec ball 2 days a week and call it good, why because there is no plus team in there adjoining states. SSUSA should take a phone poll between now and Nov 1 and ask the question how many players would like to try and play plus ball, and find out where there from,,maybe then ajustments could be made.
Aug. 1, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1936 posts
Bigon-I live in a small state, NM-we have nothing higher that AAA. I have to travel to play plus, and until this year that didn't happen. But I still think the problem is how to get the players that are capable of playing M+ to move up, because there are enough to make a very large division. But teams would rather break up than move up, or would rather stay with friends than move up. Don't think that will change anytime soon.
Aug. 2, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
George is on the right track. with a few tweaks.....and one major miss.

Except....
.
1) The big miss.......He somehow forgot to set a limit of list players for Plus teams???

If, using George's equation...the difference between AA AAA and Major is one additional list player...then Plus should only get one additional list player above the Major limit.

2) his regional idea is to large...Dan Smith proved that strong regulations are needed to keep sponsors from just buying the best players....I'd limit the teams to boardering states totally no more then X amount of population based on the last census.

3) I'd split the large population stand alone states in half...ie NorCal/SoCal...west Texas/east Texas

But....it takes tons of work to list players.

I would be surprised if any of the Champions of Plus would not make the list.
Aug. 2, 2012
swanny22
Men's 55
10 posts
Old A's still dominate just under a different name Omen softball.
Aug. 2, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Strongly agree with Tim's #2 point. If any system is going to work, there has to be limits on what teams with money can buy, sort of a salary cap.
Aug. 2, 2012
GeHall44
Men's 55
92 posts
Tim and Jawood - Region restrictions is fine with me too. Our team is within a 100 mile radius and we have done OK. I was thinking that if good players are playing down then get rated Plus because of thier performance, they would need a Major or Plus team to join or they can't play. In places like NM where Webbie is, if he couldn't play on GSF, what would his options be? Flexibility to make it work is the key. Bottom line is I see a whole lot of damn good players playing AAA and AA. If they could move up, every division would be better. No need to limit the Open division or break up any teams. Money doesn't buy heart and desire. The A's went 19 & 5 in July in baseball and Sommerville might have a bigger budget than them. That's a joke Don, no disrespect intended.
Rich - if you and I start a team, 1 + 1 = 2, woo hoo. We could play AAA. : )
Aug. 2, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
973 posts
LMAO George!
Aug. 2, 2012
the wood
1071 posts
Swanny22: I played against them in the 60 division and, yes, they did/do have lots of old A's players. Aside from Reno what have they won?
When I referred to them being dominant I meant 2001-2004 (55s). I believe that they were also pretty tough in the 60s six years ago.
I've been out of thr M+ loop for since 2010.
BW
Aug. 2, 2012
the wood
1071 posts
Swanny22: I played against them in the 60 division and, yes, they did/do have lots of old A's players. Aside from Reno what have they won?
When I referred to them being dominant I meant 2001-2004 (55s). I believe that they were also pretty tough in the 60s six years ago.
I've been out of thr M+ loop for since 2010.
BW
Aug. 2, 2012
the wood
1071 posts
Swanny:
Sorry to send it twice. My point isn't to shed ill light on Omen but to use real life examples of how the 60/65 divisions take care of themselves. We do not need anyone to disrupt teams.
I've played against almost of the Omen guys for 10+ years. I respect them as players and Omen as a team.
Were you stating that they are a team that needs to be 'reassigned'? I don't believe that ANY M+ team needs to be dissected.
BW
Aug. 3, 2012
swanny22
Men's 55
10 posts
Wood: I agree No team should be torn apart simply because they are better or out work the competition. Just sounded like you thought they had been knocked off their perch.They have won plenty and continue to do so(65 M+).I am guessing when Tim talks about people walking around with 20+rings he is refering to these guys.Not their fault they are just a great team other teams should strive to beat the best not tear them down.
Aug. 3, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2617 posts
swanny, haven't you hard it must now be better to beat teams because you brought them down to beneath you rather than rising above?
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