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Real name:
John Barrow

Location:
Sonora, CA

Division:
Men's 55

Messages posted by Foothills »Message board home   »Start a new discussion

Oct. 5, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Vegas is the model

My sentiments exactly Joe ! I wish all SSUSA tournaments were run as well . These kind of conditions make it worth the trip and even paying a little higher entry fee id needed . JB
Sept. 29, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: new ball talk

Joe , keep up the fight . The ball we are using . Should not be dumbed down . Can`t believe the animosity here concerning the ball. Derogatory names are not warranted . If they feel this strongly . They should look you up in person at a tourney . This is the problem with the internet . It allows people to take a stance and say things , that they would never say to your face . JB
Sept. 29, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Renaldi-Address

Joe , I need your address . jbarrow@mlode.com
Sept. 28, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: 55's in Vegas

Joe . If you use the same ball , that we did . You will be pleased. Best 44/375 ball I have used . Anything hit with force and rotation goes well over the net . JB
Aug. 20, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Cal State Championships

Joe . The 44/375 is fine at about 78 degrees and below . The problem is, that is a temperature we rarely play at . In the heat the ball needs to be a 525 compression ball or one of the microcell balls . If it was a 525 ball , the compression would stii be around 375 even at 100 degrees . It is a simple fix . But ,TD`s don`t seem to be willing to go to the trouble . It would fix the problem . JB
July 1, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: General feelings/discussion/thoughts

Trumpball. Your explanation about the core absorbing moisture up to the humidity level makes sense . Too bad cores aren`t protected from this like the " Evil" balls supposedly are . Played in Oakdale, Ca. this weekend, in 110 degrees ,right by the river . Don`t know what the humidity was , but I know it wasn`t 90% . We were using Lexxum`s 44/375`s on 285 foot fences . Homerun hitters were still hitting them . A lot of them 40 to 60 feet over the fence . Never played back east . Sounds like I will avoid doing so . Jb
June 30, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: General feelings/discussion/thoughts

Trump .According to Bashbros comments . It looks like, if we just made Trumps 44/375 MCT ball the manditory ball. The core would not be affected by humid conditions and you guys back there wouldn`t have any problems . It would be the end of the problem for humid situations. JB
June 30, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: General feelings/discussion/thoughts

The above post is from Bashbro ,from this board . He puts it better than I have read anywhere else . JB
June 30, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: General feelings/discussion/thoughts


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Discussion: How Weather Affects Softball Travel Distances:
Posted Discussion
Oct. 24, 2007
bashbro1
Men's 60
255 posts
How Weather Affects Softball Travel Distances:
From the Desk of bashbro1 Kent, WA:

As a softball flies through the air, the air pushes back against it, resisting its motion and decreasing the distance the ball travels. If you don't believe that air can provide such resistance, go ahead and just stick your arm out of a car window at 120 mph and feel the push you get. A lot of emphasis is paid to the “density” of the air mass around the field. Of course air density is a localized phenomena and can be quite different from place-to-place, from day-to-day and is dependent on such atmospheric variables such as: ‘temperature’, ‘humidity’ and air ‘pressure’. In thin, or low density air a ball can travel faster and farther because there's less air resistance like for example in Carson City’s “Rockin’ Reno”.

Let’s quickly breakdown the importance of these above mentioned atmospheric variables that affect ball flight and distance:

(1.) Air Pressure. Air under low pressure is less dense, or thinner, than air under high pressure. This is the main reason your long flies carry farther in Carson City given its atmospheric pressure at that altitude of 4687ft, which is about 15% less than sea level pressures like in Seattle, WA. A ball that would have flown 320 ft at sea level would carry further by some 20-30’ or about 350’ in the higher altitude. On a low pressure day the pressure is only one or two per cent lower than on a normal day, so a 320 ft shot @ sea level would only carry about 322 ft! Obviously this air pressure effect is not significant enough to give it much consideration.

So then, what does make a difference on a daily basis @ the same altitude? Well, how about the (2.) Humidity? Air with high humidity is less dense, therefore is thinner than is counterpart or dry air. But here again, the affect is so slight it would only account for a long fly traveling just a few inches farther on a humid day. Here’s lies the paradox regarding humid air like we experience in the St. Louis ISA Worlds this past summer. According atmospheric scientists, humid air will make the softball (44COR 375lbs Comp.) actually heavier and less elastic than a ball in dry air, and consequently, it will not carry as well even though humid air is ‘thinner’ than dry air. The effect on distance playing in high humidity would carry your blast say 335ft rather than 315ft which are just rough “ballpark” estimates by scientists.

Hey how about Temp? The higher the (3.) Temperature of the air will make the air less dense, or thinner, than cold air. Here again we’re only talking about adding 10ft or so on your 300’ home run in say 75-80degree temps. And as we have all experienced, the ball loses a significant amount of its compression for every degree over 80 degrees which will off-set any gains with the thinner air.

Okay, here’s the kicker so to speak… (4.) “The Wind is Mariah”. Air moving along in the same direction as the ball is flying pushes back less on the ball, allowing it to travel farther. In fact, the wind is very often the single most important thing to consider about the weather when hitting home runs in a tournament. A 320ft shot in calm conditions could result in a 365ft+ blast just with a 15-20 mph tail wind and vice versa with the wind blowing into the batter’s face.

So of all the atmospheric variables we deal with in an every day game, “wind direction” has by far the greatest influence on your distance. I know for a fact that in New Zealand, the top seeded team in a tournament gets their choice of field assignments based on “wind direction”, and that’s how important wind speed and direction is in Senior Softball as well!

Bashbro1(Art Eversole Ruth 60’s Player/Webmaster)
Oct. 24, 2007
einstein
Men's 50
1212 posts
Absolutely brilliantly interesting stuff.
You're a senior softball gem.
Say hi to Tommy and BEAR and the crusher for me.
Oct. 25, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
Kevin at Anaconda / Trump told me that the average ssoftball will lose 5 lbs of compression for every degree that the temperature is above 72 degrrees, and will gain 5 pounds of compression for every degree below 72 degrees.
He also advises that Trump's 44/375 ball With MCT ( Micro Cell Technology) does not lose any compression on hot, humid Summer days due to the unique manufacturing process that is used on those balls.
We have used those balls in our leagues and tournaments a few times with excellent results in 90+ degree days. They don't lose a thing in the heat and humidity.
Oct. 25, 2007
DoubleL10
Men's 60
295 posts
Here in Houston we use these balls in our HCSSL League. They do not carry well since they are stored in a locked cabinet in a scorebooth that gets well over 110 degrees in the summer. The ball loses significant compression here in this condition. It takes a lot to cause this to happen, but it does happen here.

They do fine when stored at room temperature and then used.
Oct. 25, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
No doubt. That's ball abuse. I hate it when that haappens.
Oct. 25, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
This show appeared on TV every week right before Gunsmoke. It's star actor had his pistol pointed right at you during the opening scene. Name this series and the actor.
Oct. 25, 2007
OLDBUCK23
Men's 60
62 posts
Sorry, wrong topic. What a meathead !
Oct. 25, 2007
Dbax
Men's 50
789 posts
LMAO!!!
Oct. 26, 2007
hitt2
246 posts
Now this is positive and helpful info Nice job

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June 30, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: General feelings/discussion/thoughts

Trumpball . I pasted the above explanation for you . Read down to where they are talking about softballs . He claims humid air is lighter than dry . Don`t know who is right or wrong . Makes for interesting reading . JB
June 30, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: General feelings/discussion/thoughts

MadSci Network: Physics Query:
Trumpball

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: How do temp, press, humidity affect the distance traveled by golf balls?
Date: Fri Jun 30 16:05:12 2000
Posted By: Tom Cull, Staff, Clinical Sciences MR Division, Marconi Medical Systems
Area of science: Physics
ID: 961595006.Ph
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:

There are a handful of answers on the MadSci Network that deal with the effects of wind, humidity, and pressure with baseballs and airplanes, but not too much on golfballs. Here are 3 such responses I found with the search engine.

Re: Does the temperature of a baseball affect it's rebounding rating?

Re: differences in gravity at sea level & 1 and 2 miles alt.?

Re: How do acrobatic planes fly?

However, the simple answer is that it is not simple. So, like most physics questions, we can either do the experiment when appropriate, or try to compile the basic principles we understand and create a model. We have to accept the fact, that we don't know it all (physicists say this all the time), and try to hit the most important features. And sometimes, even after considering the apparently most important effects, we are still wrong because we missed something. Permit me a huge digression to evaluate temperature, humid, and air pressure and then come back to the question.

Modelling the flight of a golf ball is very difficult to do accurately. Golf ball manufactures do many things almost completely by trial and error when it comes to designing new golf balls. Experience and creativity are what lead to the which new dimple patterns, ball materials, and core construction is attempted. Because of the variability of balls, and the huge computational burden it would take to try to account for the dimples, drag, speed, density of the air, wind, and such, we must turn to what simple things we know.

There are a few generalities that can be applied.

First let's look at temperature. Anyone who has played golf,baseball or tennis when the temperature is below about 45 oF can tell that the contact with the ball feels different than at more spring/summer-like temperatures (60+ oF). Part of the reason is that the ball is less resilient (this goes for the club too). When the ball is struck more energy is lost, so the ball doesn't travel as far. Throw in harder ground and when the golfer swings to hit the ball, the ground can (not always) create more drag or less solid contact with the club face. The ball might roll farther on the ground, but it is likely that the competing effects will win.

Humidity is often underrated. Humid air is lighter than dry, despite what people say about the air being heavy. The heaviness of humid air is more from the reduced ability to cool down by sweating and the slight rise in breathing difficulty. Gaseous water (H2O) is lighter then the N2 or O2 that is replaces. I have experienced the effects of humidity while playing golf and softball. I used to live in St. Louis which a terribly humid place during the summer and fall. I played in a softball league that played games during the summer with start times that ranged from 6:00PM to 10:30PM. The later games typcially were played in a slight fog that arose because the field was in a valley. During the fog games, everyone could be a power hitter. I could routinely hit a softball over 300 feet at 11:00PM, but was lucky to clear 250 feet during the sunny games of 6:00 PM. If you look at Major League Baseball many of the dome stadiums used to be very poor for home runs (the Astrodome in particular), I think in part to the lower humidity that was prevalent for customer comfort.

The extreme of rain on the other hand will shorten the flight of a ball. The main reason is the constant pounding of the water against the ball. The rain drops work like little hammers of momentum to slow the ball down.

Finally let's consider air pressure which has probably the biggest effect of the three. Simple stated, less air pressure means less aerodynamic drag (air resistance). Viscosity (drag through a fluid) is inversely proportional to air pressure (or density, really). Since the golf ball does not depend on air pressure (or density) for thrust (like a jet engine), it will fly farther. The effects of air pressure (density) are usually approximated as linear. This is not a great approximation all the time, but it pretty close. Therefore, a 10% drop in air pressure will turn a 240 yard drive into about 267 yards.

If we look at the records of well known long driver Gerry James, we can see the effects of elevation (i.e. low air pressure) on distance. Notice the big hits all occur in Colorado, Nevada, and Arizona.


Winner: Pro longest drive event,
Houston Texas, 396 yards,
June 1993

Winner: Pro longest drive,
Cooper Creek, Colorado, 417 yards 1/2 inch @altitude,
recorded/filmed.
1991

Pro Longdrive Championships:
Miami, Florida, 410 yards,
November 1991

World Record Breaker Pro Longdrive Event:
448 yards, 2'3" Denver, Colorado, @altitude,
October, 1991

Winner: Metter,
Georgia, 381 yards,
October 1992

Winner: Pro longdrive event, BLASTERS,
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 319 yards (into 25 mph winds)

Winner: Pro longdrive, DUNAWAY'S RUNWAY, Championship,
362 yards, filmed,
June 1995

Winner: NITRO SHOOTOUT,
Mesquite, Nevada, 419 yards, filmed,
April 1997

Winner: Casa Grande, Arizona.
longdrive 444 yards,
July 1997
Winner: Hard Drive Power Golf Tour,
Denver, Colorado, 473 yards 2 feet 6 inches (competitive world
record)
September 28, 1997.
Gerry James is not a huge guy, but he knows how swing the driver. The folks that hold the long drive contests also know enough to stage their events in the mountains.

So with all this background, let's go back to your question:


If water vapor is lighter than dry air, why do balls seem to travel less
distance in high humidity conditions?
We know air pressure is a big factor. So the ball will travel farther if the air pressure is lower. Humid air does not necessary mean lower pressure, but chances are you play around the same area all the time, so the air pressure probably doesn't vary more than 5-10%. Certainly the temperature probably doesn't vary much when you observe these high humidity days, at least not enough to be a big effect. So it seems that I have talked around in a circle and come back to learning nothing. Well, maybe. Now we need to look at other effects:
-Hot, humid day with less wind, the golfer will get tired.
-Wet and humid days the ground will be soft and this will reduce roll and potentially allow the golfer to dig more turf at contact.
-We don't understand something fundamentally different about how the ball interacts with the air when it is more humid.
-This is a placebo effect: the ball is probably travelling about the same distance and we have created an observation. A similar myth was that batters popped out more with aluminum bats. This was widely accepted back in the mid-70's and early 80's. This is simply not true.


In general, your average golfer does more poorly when the course conditions are not "average." So any variation from 75 degrees and partly sunny with a light breeze creates the conditions for observations of phantom effects. I, for example, often play horribly when the course is very wet because I tend to be in the heavy wet rough and if I miss swing slightly I get a big old hunk of sod in the fairway.

Sincerely,

Tom "No Short Game" Cull




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June 30, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: General feelings/discussion/thoughts

Trumpball . I can`t remember where I read it . But , there was a scientific analysis on how humidity affects ball distance . The outcome was that it had little if any effect on distance . I think I reead it on a site called B & N Softball . JB
June 24, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Senior Boombah Bat

Sundevil2--Have one ordered . Will be testing soon . Have used all senior bats extensively . Do not agree with you , that Ultra 11 is still the best . The yellow Combat is as good as any Ultra . The Launch is its equal also . Same bat with a 1 In. longer barrel . I personally swing the Launch over the Ultra , because the flared knob , is more comfortable with the overhand grip . JB
June 23, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Senior Boombah Bat

hitt2---I wonder why they would bother comming out with something not as good as there competition ? Why bother if it isn`t as good . Users would figure it out quick and quit buying the bat . "A little bit less",is a very subjective situation most of the time .
June 22, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: no fences

Einstein played in the tourney for No Dice . I played there as well . For the very reasons you stated , I won`t play there anymore . Anything hit in the gap, on that artificial turf is a homerun .Senior Of`s not the fastest in the world . Balls rolled forever . You are right . If OF think you have any power , they play you back at about 320 . A ton of balls hit up the middle and at 3rd baseman .
June 22, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: Senior Boombah Bat

Read on the kids board , that Boombah has a senior bat now . Called them up and they say it is 1.2 compliant . Only $ 140.00 . Orderd one . Can`t go wrong at that price , since senior bats are almost throw aways anyway . If it is any good , they will end up starting a price war in Senior Softball bats . JB
June 4, 2009
Foothills
Topic: Tournaments
Discussion: milwaukee--1-1 count--11 defenders

1 and one would be good for speeding up the game only . For a hitter it would take away consistency . You already have one strike . Then you have someone like Renaldi throw a high knuckleball that hits the back corner of the plate and you are dead meat .
May 21, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: WHAT BALL FOR RENO

Mad Dog , USSA obviously is trying to provide the best possible playing conditions . Nothing wrong with that . Just shows respect for your customers . Since our bats are better we could obtain the same results by using 44-450 over and a 44-300 under . This way we would always be close to the 44-375 , that we are supposed to be at .
May 19, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: WHAT BALL FOR RENO

Tim, temperature always will affect the balls and thus our games . I have had it explained to me , that a ball loses around 5 lbs. of compression for every degree over 75 and picks up 5 lbs. for every degree under 75 . So if the idea is to be hitting a 375 lb. ball. Then yes , we should use a higher compression ball when it is over 80 degrees and a lower one when under . Say a 325 lb. under and a 450 lb. ball over .
May 19, 2009
Foothills
Topic: General and miscellaneous
Discussion: WHAT BALL FOR RENO

Tim, temperature always will affect the balls and thus our games . I have had it explained to me , that a ball loses around 5 lbs. of compression for every degree over 75 and picks up 5 lbs. for every degree under 75 . So if the idea is to be hitting a 375 lb. ball. Then yes , we should use a higher compression ball when it is over 80 degrees and a lower one when under . Say a 325 lb. under and a 450 lb. ball over .
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