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Discussion: Runner Hit by Batted Ball

Posted Discussion
Jan. 20, 2014
Paul P
Men's 65
41 posts
Runner Hit by Batted Ball
We all know the standard rule, the ball passing an infielder, deflected by an infielder, etc, etc, but here is one that I'm suprised doesn't happen more often. Runner on Third Base, batted ball hits the runner, while the runner is affixed to the 3rd base bag. What is the proper call? Obviously the runner is not out. The base being in fair territory is it a fair ball, or is it a dead ball, foul ball?
Jan. 20, 2014
BoiseBat
Men's 60
5 posts
Depending on where the third baseman is playing. In our/normal situation with third baseman playing behind the bag. The ball is dead and batter/runner is put on first, all runners forced will advance one base.
Jan. 20, 2014
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
depending if runner is in fair territory also.. if foot is on base and runner has body in foul territory it's foul ball if not then BB has it correct..
Jan. 23, 2014
Paul P
Men's 65
41 posts
Thanks for the input, both answers raise interesting possibilities.

The "flight of the ball" determines fair or foul, agreed? 99% of the time, the fielder is behind the bag. So that part of the equation is out of the mix.

Most experienced ball players step towards the 3rd base coaches box, so that if they are hit, foot on the bag or not, its just a foul ball. However there are those that remain in fair territory.

Assuming a fair ball strikes the runner on third, and he is attached to the bag, in a bases-loaded situation, all runners advance one base, including the batter. In ther case of a "first and third" situation, the batter moves to first, and the runner on first moves to second while the runner on third remains.

This is how I understand it, and if wrong, could someone correct me.
Jan. 23, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
143 posts
Thta is correct.

Now lets throw one more out there
Runner on 3rd
Batter hits a shot down third base line that hits the bag meanwhile the runner has jumped into foul ground. the fair ball that hits the base bounces back and hits the runner.

Whats the call?
Jan. 23, 2014
stick8
1261 posts
Paul P, USSSA rules are where the spot of the ball is when it hits the runner. If ball is in fair territory that is a fair ball. if its in foul territory it's a foul ball. SSISA may be different.
Jan. 23, 2014
Duke
Men's 60
697 posts
If the runner is hit with a fair batted ball while touching a base, he is not
out. EFFECT: The ball is live or dead depending on the position of the
fielder closest to the ball. If the closest defensive player is in front of
the base runner hit by the ball, the ball remains live. However, after the
runner in contact with the base is hit by the batted ball, it shall be the
same as hitting the ground. Since the ball remains live, the defense is
free to make whatever plays are available. If the defensive player is
behind the base runner, the ball is ruled dead, the hitter is awarded a
base hit and runners are advanced ONLY if forced to advance.

This is the complete answer.

Andy Smith
Jan. 23, 2014
Omar Khayyam
984 posts
Ouch! All these scenarios of a runner on third getting hit by a batted ball give me the shivers. Yes, I have been hit more than once while on third and a sizzler comes at me, but I don't have the courage to just stand and take it. The only reason I got hit was because I didn't jump high enough or squat low enough.
Jan. 27, 2014
Mulewhipper
54 posts
ANYTIME a batter is hit with a batted ball in fair play, there is an out...regardless if he is standing on a base or not.
Jan. 27, 2014
Mulewhipper
54 posts
Check that last post...ANYTIME a "Base runner" is hit with a batted ball before an infielder touches it...there is an out.
Jan. 27, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
Mulewhipper ... ANYTIME does NOT include the circumstance of the base runner being in contact with a base, so that's not really ANYTIME as you incorrectly stated ... The answer given by Duke above is the complete and correct answer ...
Jan. 27, 2014
Mulewhipper
54 posts
Staff: are the rules for softball different than standard baseball rules then?
Jan. 27, 2014
Mulewhipper
54 posts
Yup...I read the rules and they are exactly as Andy has cut and pasted in the above post.
So it is different than a standard baseball rule then.
Jan. 27, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
Yes, the baseball rule is different from the softball rule ...
__________

If a runner is hit by a FAIR batted ball while he is in FAIR territory he is out. This includes while he is standing on a base. The bases are in FAIR territory. If he is hit in fair territory, while on the base, before the ball has passed an infielder, he is out, except if he is hit by an infield-fly. If he is hit by a fair batted ball while he is in foul territory he is not out unless he intentionally interferes with the ball or a play.

June 5, 2014
gr8hit42
2 posts
Can anyone tell me where this is covered in the Official Senior Softball USA Rulebook? I have some disbelievers.
June 5, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
See RULEBOOK SECTION §8.2 C. on page 42 of the Official SSUSA Rulebook
June 6, 2014
STL0
31 posts
So from a strategy standpoint of a baserunner on third, if you have a situation where bases are loaded and let's say no one out, if a person hits a ground ball close to the bag that you know will be a double play or perhaps triple play, you get purposely make contact with the ball while maintaining contact with third base and it would either be everyone advances a base or a live ball depending where the fielder is (mostly likely behind the runner so everyone is safe)? It seems like that would be against the spirit of the rule but by rule a base runner could do that?

Anyone disagree?
June 6, 2014
taits
Men's 65
4318 posts
Not unlike the 'fly ball' that is 'dropped' to make a double play.
June 6, 2014
mad dog
Men's 60
3930 posts
STLO....NO....no runner can intentionally interfere with a batted ball to prevent a fielder from making a play no matter if he is on the base.....so in your scenario the ump would call an out and maybe even a DP if they deem there could of been one....also there will be no runs scored on it as the 2 outs will be the 2 closest runners to home......
July 13, 2014
txnighttrain
16 posts
Rule 8.2 C.1. If a runner is hit with a fair batted ball while touching a base, he is NOT OUT! Please read the rule again.
July 14, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
You are both correct in context ... txnighttrain: The base runner would NOT be declared out for being struck by a batted ball while he is in contact with the base ... mad dog: But that runner WILL be declared out (if there is a competent umpire observing) for Interference ...
July 14, 2014
STL0
31 posts
Thanks Staff and txnighttrain but my comment was theorectical as I'm not smart enough to think of that while running the bases so it makes it a moot point. If I actually pulled that off in a game situation,that would be amazing. I guess you just have to make it look like an accident which requires more thinking and that is not my specialty.
July 14, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
Garocket threw in an interseting scenario!!!!
Runner on 3rd ...Batter hits a shot down third base line that hits the bag... meanwhile the runner has jumped into foul ground, the fair ball that hits the base bounces back and hits the runner. I would say that since the ball hit the bag it is definitely a fair ball, assuming that the 3rd baseman is playing back the ball bouncing into foul territory and hitting the runner I would just call it a live ball and let the play go on????? SSUSA STAFF is that correct???
July 15, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
We believe this is a foul ball ... The sharply hit ball hitting the 3rd base bag and bounding back toward home plate (as you defined the hypothetical facts) has not touched the ground in fair territory beyond third base ... As such, it's no different than a slowly hit dribbler that hits a pebble near the foul line and rolls across the chalk into foul territory ... This will no doubt result in a spirited debate during a game, but on further analysis, it's just a foul ball ... You may wish to check out Rulebook §1.28 - FOUL BALL on page 5 ...
July 15, 2014
cal50
Men's 50
266 posts
In baseball if it touches the base, not touches the ground, it is fair.

A (batted) baseball is fair if:

it stops in fair territory before it reaches first or third base (A), or
it hits a base (B), or
bouncing or rolling, it passes first or third base on or above fair territory (C), or
it passes first or third base in the air and makes its first bounce in fair territory (D), or
the baseball is hit so far that it leaves the playing field between the foul poles or hits one of them (both of which types of events are very good for the batter) (E) or
the defense touches it while it is moving on or above fair territory.
July 15, 2014
Mr Ed
Men's 55
10 posts
A fair ball is a legally batted ball that:
A. Settles or is touched on or over fair territory between home and first base
or between home and third base.
B. Bounds over or past first or third base, which is in fair territory, regardless
of where the ball hits after going over the base.
C. While on or over fair territory, touches the person, attached equipment or
clothing of a player or an umpire.
D. Touches first, second or third base.
E. First falls or is touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third
base.
This is from Section 1.22 Fair Ball as you can see from part d the batted ball in the above scenario should be a fair ball. what the call would be after the ball hits the runner in foul territory i don't know.
July 15, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
This is an SSUSA softball rule query, not a baseball rule query ... The rules for baseball and softball differ in some instances, for example (above) with a batted ball striking a player while he is in contact with a base ... Subsection A. below results in a "foul ball" call under the SSUSA Rulebook ...

Rulebook §1.28 • FOUL BALL


A foul ball is a legally batted ball that:

A. Settles or is touched on or over foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base. [emphasis added]
B. Bounds or rolls past first or third base on or over foul territory.
C. While over foul territory, touches the person, attached equipment or clothing of a player or an umpire, or is blocked.
D. First hits the ground or is first touched over foul territory beyond first or third base. A caught fly ball is not a foul ball.
E. Touches the batter or the bat in the batter's hand(s) a second time while the batter is within the batter's box.

July 15, 2014
cal50
Men's 50
266 posts
Then the next question would be does it have to pass the entire base? Your interpretation seems wrong to me.
July 15, 2014
Mr Ed
Men's 55
10 posts
my above section is from the senior softball rule book. So if the ball hits third base and is fair then strikes a runner in foul territory the call is then changed to foul? Doesn't seem right to me
July 15, 2014
stever
Men's 65
61 posts
Staff. Your answer on July 15 stating that a ball that hits the bag and bounds back toward home plate would be a foul ball is in direct conflict with the SSUSA rule book, as stated by Mr Ed. Rule 1.22D SPECIFICALLY says that any ball that strikes first, second or third base is a fair ball. That was not the original question, though. The original question was whether it was a fair or foul ball and whether it was a live or dead ball. According to rule 8.2.C.1, a baserunner cannot be declared out if hit by a fairly batted ball while in contact with a base and the ball is live. So, in answer to the original question by Paul P, the runner is not out and the determination of whether it is a fair or foul ball is determined by the ball position when it strikes the runner. If it struck the runner while it was over fair territory it is a fair ball and is live, according to rule 8.2.C.1. If it struck the runner over foul territory it is a foul ball.
July 15, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
RULE 1.22 D. Touches first, second or third base.....That is why I said I would call it a fair ball and then ball hitting the runner I just am not sure whether he is out for ball hitting him before it passes a fielder? or is it just a live ball?
July 15, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
Mr. Ed ... The ball is a fair ball at the moment it touches the base under §1.22 D, but it can subsequently go foul by bounding back toward the home plate area and crossing into foul territory before being touched, under §1.28 A. ... Which is the hypothetical fact pattern that started this part of the discussion ... The fair ball provision is more about defining the bases to be in fair territory, but the fact that a ball does touch a base does not make that a fair ball forever, regardless what happens subsequently ...

July 15, 2014
cal50
Men's 50
266 posts
Staff, this must be a specific SSUSA rule, it would not apply as you describe anywhere else I can find. I could be mistaken and would be curious of Stick's input on USSSA rules.
July 15, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
cal50 ... Agreed ... stick8 is an excellent resource on USSSA rules ... Both Mr. Ed and we have accurately cut/pasted portions of the SSUSA Rulebook, and we take no exception at Mr. Ed's (and stever's) assertion that we have a fair ball under §1.28 D. ... Yes we do at that moment, but not to the complete exclusion of what may subsequently happen, like the ball rolling foul before passing 3rd base, which makes it become a foul ball under §1.22 A. ...

It's not all that different from a ball that is (unintentionally) chopped and bounces straight down and hits home plate before bounding up the line ... It's fair from the moment it hits the plate, but becomes foul if it rolls into foul territory and settles or is touched ... Our theory is that hitting the base is fair ball at that moment, but let's wait and see what happens subsequently that could cause that ball to become a foul ball ... Believe it or not, these two provisions are not mutually exclusive, but merely define the fair/foul status at the moment of occurrence, which can change when those occurrences are sequential rather than simultaneous ...

July 15, 2014
Mr Ed
Men's 55
10 posts
I now understand how you are applying the rule. I also think this particular circumstance would be very rare.
July 15, 2014
SSUSA Staff
1131 posts
Mr Ed ... B.J. is somewhat skilled at crafting (barely believable) "Stump the Ump" hypothetical situations! ... And, yes, for this to happen would be a very rare circumstance, indeed ... About the only thing certain in all of this, were it to actually ever happen, would be a world-class rhubarb that would test the inter-personal skills of all participants!
July 15, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
STAFF thx but I cannot take the credit for this it was Garockets scenario but no one answered it...so i reposted it....and the actual scenario had nothing to do with ball bouncing back toward home plate what was written was batted ball hits 3rd base runner on 3rd jumps into foul territory the ball bounces back and hits him....what is the call I posted fair ball and was not sure if runner would be called out. but if the ball had not passed a fielder i would think he would be called out.
July 16, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
I stil believe this to be a fair ball once ball hits 3rd base even if balll does not pass it...ASA Section 8. RUNNER IS NOT OUT...8 E. When a runner is hit with a fair untouched batted ball over foul territory that,in the umpire’s judgment no fielder had an opportunity to make an out.
July 16, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
143 posts
I am going to break down the rules as I read them and then I guesss it will be up to higher powers on what the final ruling would be.

Once the ball hits first or third base it is a fair ball by rule, and can never be ruled a foul ball. If it hits the base and rolls into foul territory and goes into a dead ball area it would be a double.

But back to the topic

Ball hits third automatically a fair ball.

Next rule is, it only says any time a runner is hit with a fair batted ball while not in contact with the base and the defense is behind him he will be called out.
( does not say unless the runner is hit with a fair batted ball while in foul area).

So as an umpire as quick as the ball hits the base I would point toward fair area because the ball just became fair.

Then I would call dead ball because the ball hit the runner not in contact with the base.
And NOW THE CRAZY STUFF HAPPENS


Just going by what is written in the rule book it says he is out.
But might be hard to sell.

But at least you could go back to the rule book and show someone why you called him out..



I think the easiest way to clean that up would add:

Any fair batted ball that strikes a runner while over foul ground is a dead ball and all runners advance one base if forced.


I am scrathing my head trying to figure out how a declared fair ball for hitting the base now becones a foul ball?


July 16, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
143 posts
I am going to break down the rules as I read them and then I guesss it will be up to higher powers on what the final ruling would be.

Once the ball hits first or third base it is a fair ball by rule, and can never be ruled a foul ball. If it hits the base and rolls into foul territory and goes into a dead ball area it would be a double.

But back to the topic

Ball hits third automatically a fair ball.

Next rule is, it only says any time a runner is hit with a fair batted ball while not in contact with the base and the defense is behind him he will be called out.
( does not say unless the runner is hit with a fair batted ball while in foul area).

So as an umpire as quick as the ball hits the base I would point toward fair area because the ball just became fair.

Then I would call dead ball because the ball hit the runner not in contact with the base.
And NOW THE CRAZY STUFF HAPPENS


Just going by what is written in the rule book it says he is out.
But might be hard to sell.

But at least you could go back to the rule book and show someone why you called him out..



I think the easiest way to clean that up would add:

Any fair batted ball that strikes a runner while over foul ground is a dead ball and all runners advance one base if forced.


I am scrathing my head trying to figure out how a declared fair ball for hitting the base now becones a foul ball?


July 16, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
143 posts
Just reread what SSUSA STAFF wrote

say if the ball touches third and goes back toward home in foul ground it is a foul ball.


NO WAY, NO WAY, NO WAY

Once the ball touches first or third it can never be called a foul ball
July 16, 2014
B.J.
37 posts
Garocket I agree RULE 1.22 D that the ball is fair once it hits the base .....but I have been told many times from UIC's in SSUSA when a specific rule cannot be found look at ASA because their rule book is more specific. That is why I posted this..... ASA Section 8.....RUNNER IS NOT OUT...8 E. When a runner is hit with a fair untouched batted ball over foul territory that,in the umpire’s judgment no fielder had an opportunity to make an out. we'll see what STAFF says
July 16, 2014
Garocket
Men's 55
143 posts
Winner Winner Chicken dinner

Sounds like BJ found the answer and it sounds like a good rule
July 16, 2014
DCPete
231 posts
Sure; once the ball hits 1st or 3rd base it has to be a fair ball no matter where it goes from there.
No different than a ball that hits on the foul line anywhere between the base & the outfield fence. It's still a fair ball even if it rolls backwards & sideways into foul territory between the base and home plate, right?.
July 17, 2014
stever
Men's 65
61 posts
Using SSUSA Staff logic, if a fielder touches a ball BEFORE it passes first or third base and then it subsequently rolls foul it would be called a foul ball. Obviously, no one will agree to this. However, the base line is the inside of the bags; therefore, if a ball hits first or third base at least a portion of the ball has crossed the baseline and no matter where it ends up after that it is a fair ball. I usually can agree with SSUSA Staff on rules, but this time I think they are very, very wrong. If they are going to insist on this interpretation they are going to be the only organization, baseball, fast pitch, or slow pitch that interprets it this way. Rule 122D has no caveat that what happens after a ball hits the base decides whether it is a fair or foul ball. It just says it is a fair ball.
July 17, 2014
Paul P
Men's 65
41 posts
Im so glad I asked the original question, which was based on an actual event that I was a party to!!!

The rest of the "scenarios" reminded me of an old George Carlin skit in which as a student in a Catechism Class he once asked a nun, "Can God make a rock so large that he himself cannot move it?"

The entertainment is priceless, but after aall, it IS SENIOR Softball, the emphasis being on "Senior".

The "flight of the ball" determines the call at 3rd, the runner not being out as long as he was in contact with the base.

Anything else would be fun to just sit back and watch the fireworks!!
July 17, 2014
Paul P
Men's 65
41 posts
Im so glad I asked the original question, which was based on an actual event that I was a party to!!!

The rest of the "scenarios" reminded me of an old George Carlin skit in which as a student in a Catechism Class he once asked a nun, "Can God make a rock so large that he himself cannot move it?"

The entertainment is priceless, but after aall, it IS SENIOR Softball, the emphasis being on "Senior".

The "flight of the ball" determines the call at 3rd, the runner not being out as long as he was in contact with the base.

Anything else would be fun to just sit back and watch the fireworks!!
July 18, 2014
baseballbill
16 posts
What if a ball hits third or first base and the next bounce touches foul past the base or the infielder touches the ball in foul territory past the base, is the ball fair or foul?
July 18, 2014
cal50
Men's 50
266 posts
Ball would be fair, but question is the runner safe or out if in foul territory. I would guess runner would be out.
July 21, 2014
stick8
1261 posts
Baseballbill, any batted ball that hits first or third is a fair ball.
July 21, 2014
stick8
1261 posts
Baseballbill, any batted ball that hits first or third is a fair ball.
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