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Discussion: BAN THE ULTRA

Posted Discussion
Oct. 26, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
BAN THE ULTRA
It's time to put this bat to rest. I know Miken is a major sponsor for Senior softball but they do have other bats. Too many players hit home runs that have no business hitting them. All this hitting takes the fun out of playing defense, watching balls fly over the fence until 5 runs are scored, it's not the way the game was meant to be played!! There's a reason why the Ultra's banned in the mens associations. 50+ players can still hit it but reactions in the field, especially pitchers, get remarkably slower.
I for one have not, do not currently and never will use the Ultra--not even in bp. Just my $0.02
Oct. 27, 2008
CV3
74 posts
I started playing Senior League because the Ultra 2, it actually provides more encouragement to continue playing with sucess. I recently took a friend of my out for batting practice, he's 55 years old and had never swung a Miken Ultra 2. Well that evening he put his first home run over the fence, and I mean his first ever, and then followed with another. It was great to see someone our age enjoying the love of softball as a KID, you have to enjoy it while you can!!! and Ultra 2 does that CV
Oct. 27, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Does your friend realize his success is due to someone else's R & D, and little if anything he did? Give him a trampoline and he could probably dunk for the first time. So what?

I have nothing against anyone's happiness, but this is what is wrong with senior softball.
Oct. 27, 2008
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
My first home run, out ot the park, 300 foot fence, was with a DeMarini 28 oz. Don't need an Ultra 2, but until everyone stops using them, have to keep up with the Jones's. Anyone have an original DeMarinni for sale?
PS A ball off a DeMarini will get to the pitcher just about as fast as a Ultra 2. We use whats legal.
GT
Oct. 27, 2008
bashbro1
Men's 60
266 posts
GT buddy!

I read some where that if you are going to be in a fight, be in it to win. The saying is as we'll all heard, "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"...

So never bring a DeMarini 28oz single wall C405 aluminum bat to a Senior Softball Event that has U2's, Combats, Worth 510's, Rip Its, or you may not make it our alive! LOL

Bashbro1(Proud member of Ruth 60's Major Division Champions SSUSA Worlds 2008 PHX, AZ)
Oct. 27, 2008
SOFTBALLGRAMPS
Men's 55
98 posts
Looks like we have to band the demarini as well, since the ball gets back to the pitcher, just as fast as the U-2?
Oct. 27, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
And that is fine Bash, but just understand that safety must not be a concern. At all.

The point is to just let Seniors use what the kids can use. We are WELL beyond the days of XBHs and Bombats. There are PLENTY of great, non-senior bats out there.
Oct. 27, 2008
santo
Men's 55
41 posts
GT???? "a ball off a demarini will get to the pitcher as fast a an Ultra??!! No way, No how, never, not in your or my lifetime.....WHat have you been smokin???
Oct. 27, 2008
Paco13
352 posts
GT, I most echo the last post, stop smoking that cheap stuff. The difference between the two bats is from here to Japan and back. It is 2008, get with the program. How is your 8 track working out.
Oct. 27, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
If we were to ban the Ultra II or Senior combat, we would have the same problem that the ASA has with illegal bats. We DO NOT have a bat problem in senior softball. I believe I can say I am an expert in the bat world. I didnt see one illegal bat in Phoenix and I was there for the whole event. Go to any ASA event and you will see all kinds of problems including fights over illegal bats.
It aint broken!
Great job, Terry, Fran, Dave et al and also to Ridge and SPA.
Guess why the USSSA and ASA senior events are failing.
Oct. 27, 2008
Airbosn
Men's 65
319 posts
As a safety professional I am interested in data and I have yet to find solid batted ball injury data. Most of the info is very dated and related to contact with or running into type injuries. If all the associations were very concerned they would require the pitcher to wear protective head gear with faceguard, cup, shin guards and chest protector.

For one thing, many says the bats are being banned for safety, (still have not seen any definitive data from any association) but yet I remember balls coming off of bats at great speed 10-15 years ago. I don't remember anyone complaining back then, or any outcry to ban anything. It really depends on who is swinging the bat. There are plenty of players in the senior circuit that could put a hurt on you just as easily with iron bats as they could with a Miken if they decide to go middle. Should those monster players be banned from playing? Is the monster player a weapon because he is in tip-top shape or is it just the bat he swings.
Oct. 27, 2008
firebird380hp
Men's 50
81 posts
Everyone wants to fix something thats not tore up. Once you start banning this one then they'll be another so on and on.Just leave things alone.
Oct. 27, 2008
Lefty
Men's 65
451 posts
I agree with Jim16, Airbosn and firebird380hp. If the Ultra is so bad why does at lease 97% or more of the players use ultra like bats in everys I've been in. So I guess if don't like playing with the ultra2 stay with ASA rec ball.
Oct. 27, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
hey u know we can't do what we did when we were 20(according to some people) so why do we need these bats.guess they shouldn't have come out with viagra,cialis and all the other drugs to help us for any condition we may have.hey lets go back to caveman days and eat raw meat and only live 30 yrs.sorry for the rant.
Oct. 27, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Lefty..........You're giving the other side 3%. I don't think it is that high. When you look at the bats in the dugout, all you see is Ultra's. Combats have recently started to appear.
Oct. 27, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Ultras are not bad, but just understand that those who use them or advocate them either don't believe there is a safety issue, or just don't care. You cannot have it both ways.
Oct. 27, 2008
DMac
Men's 60
185 posts
Sal: I saw that yellow Combat for the first time in Phoenix and I think I will see it a lot more in the future. What impressed me was not how far the balls went, but how quickly they left the playing field.
Oct. 27, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
It is amazing what good R & D will do for a batter.

Again, swing what you want but then don't act like safety is an issue. I am not so sure that it is, but many on here think so.
Oct. 27, 2008
firebird380hp
Men's 50
81 posts
dirty
I do care about the team I play on and the team I'm playing against and would never intentionally try and hurt anyone so dont assume that I dont care.And I pitched when I was young from b ball to now in senior.But me being a youngster the teams that I play on put me back in the outfield but dont thin k for a minute if they need me to pitch I'll be there.In over 30yrs. and been took out by being hit only 1 time and that was when I was much younger.And yes I know it can happen at anytime but that can happen with any bat and ball combination.
Oct. 27, 2008
GT
Men's 60
162 posts
Ok guys, I surrender. Least we are talking softball. Good luck to all playing in November someplace.
Oct. 27, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
DMac...............you can try mine in Anaheim in two weeks. I used it in Vegas, had two U 2's in my bag,.... they stayed there.
Oct. 28, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
I totally agree with Dirty when he says hitting a hr with an U-2 is no the batter but the bat itself.
I played left center for Gekle all weekend and in the 7 games we played (3 I think I had a total of 5 fly balls I caught. Something is not right with that and it's the ultra 2 bat.
I understand the thrill of hitting a home run, but seriously if your that good of a hr hitter then you should be able to hit hr's with the other bats.
I accidently hit the pitcher from NW Legends in the mouth and I use a Worth Jeff Hall Mayhem. Thank God he only received 13 stitches and nothing else. Now if someone like me (just a punch and judy type hitter) can hit a pitcher with a Mayhem then that tells me bats such as what I use are more than strong enough.
There's a reason why the Ultras were banned from mens play a few years ago.
Oct. 28, 2008
gary_nys
Men's 55
5 posts
Every player should assess their capabilities and determine whether Ultra2 SSUSA or Non-Ultra2 type ASA Tournaments are best for their ability. As part of this assessment, you can also join a AA, AAA, Major or Major + team to further fine-tune your abilities to better match comparible players abilties. Add to that the protective gear available to protect youself from most injury and you can suitability adjust your level of ability to suit the tournament. If the Ultra 2 is not for you or your ability, play in non-Ultra2 leagues or tournaments. Keep the Ultra2 legal for those who choose the U2 or similarly performing bats as their bat of choice for tournament play. Keep up the good work SSUSA, Our team chooses SSUSA tournaments because of the Ultra 2 type bats as opposed to ASA tournaments. As Phoenix may indicate, many other teams do as well.
Oct. 28, 2008
Nancy Allen
Men's 55
588 posts
Not long after the gray Ultra came out, a pitcher here was killed. He was 21, had been drinking, and turned away from the batted ball, and it nailed him near the ear, and he was gone. The bat was an old, black EST. So the park banned that bat and none of the others. It was a freak, isolated incident, and the ban changed nothing. Of course there were articles here about killer bats, but I have never believed that it was just the bat. I still believe that it is the Indian, not the arrow in hitting. I am also very grateful that Ray DeMarini changed the softball world with his bats and the concept of bat speed, or men would still be swinging 36 - 40 ounce bats, and I would have difficulty finding anything under a 30 ounce bat. There were over 300 teams in Phoenix. Did anyone die from a batted ball? Did anyone get injured by a batted ball any worse than anyone else did 10 years ago? These are the only statistics that I need. There is nothing wrong with the senior bats in my opinion, except maybe the price and durability.
Oct. 28, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
stick8............If a punch and judy, like yourself, can hurt a pitcher with a Mayhem, whereas your Ultra 2 swinging teammates didn't hurt any, it would seem to me that the Mayhem should be banned.
Oct. 28, 2008
Paco13
352 posts
Gary, That is the best argument that I have heard on this board in respect to the U2. You are right there are many associations that do not allow the U2 and other bats, then if you do not like the usage of the U2..play on those associations and enjoy the game, for those that like the U2 bats let them use it, the pitcher knows what is coming at him and everybody else for that matter. As always have a wonderful day and may GOD bless you.
Oct. 28, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Nancy, that is a big part of my point. I have no problems with the bats either, only with the guys who insist on them while also claiming there are safety issues that need to be addressed by passing more dumb "pitcher protection" rules. You just cannot have it both ways. Well, you can but you mess up the game.
Oct. 29, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Salio2k, while safety is a legit concern with the U-2's that really wasn't the main issue I addressed. My point which I clearly specified is I suspect there are far too many players who are home run hitters using the U-2 that really aren't home run hitters. IMO, using a U-2 is not a true measure of ones hitting ability. Like I said earlier if they're a real hr hitter they shouldn't have to use a U-2.
It's not my position to tell any of my teammates or anyone else what bat to use. I'm only voicing a concern as to what I feel would make a more competitive and evenly balanced game featuring BOTH offense and defense.
Ultimately any decisions are up to the powers that be.
Oct. 29, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Stick,
Interesting posts and way to play in Phoenix.
Your a great on base hitter
which is why you lead off for the best major team
in the country but I think you fall prey
to your own specificity as a great singles and doubles guy.
It's mostly guys who can't hit or who want to hit singles/doubles
who seem to have the most to say about long ball hitters.

It's like there's two different approaches or orientation to batting.
Babe Ruth said if he were to try and be a singles/doubles guy
he would have hit .650 but he didn't make the adjustment, did he.
If you don't understand you must at least accept
that a major segment of hitters
of which I am one, truly enjoy hitting/driving the ball
and we're not going to change
and I'd say we're in the majority, too.
Just like you have your orientation and opinion
so do we.

That's why we need to look at different remedies/approaches
we all can live with in the short run
or the whole game will be reduced to the singles/doubles approach.
You obviously can still hit YOUR way
with good ball/bat combinations
but we won't be able to hit OUR way in your world
which is rapidly descending upon us
if we don't keep on the alert
and look for some meaningful ways to ensure
that both aspects of Senior Softball hitting/enjoyment
are grounded along with the safety necessary
for us to thoroughly enjoy our sport, all together.
Oct. 29, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
stick8.................That Jeff Hall Mayhem you are using has the same BFP (1.20) as the Ultra 2. If you're going to ban one, you have to ban the other also. You made your own choice in which bat to use and the majority of other seniors choose to make their choice the Ultra 2. What are you going to use for ASA? You can't use your Mayhem because it is too hot! Players like to use the best available and so do you.
Oct. 29, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
einstein, if you and your kind are truly as good as you say you are (and you all might very well be) you will still be able to hit enough home runs with today's non-senior bats. And if you cannot you might not be what you think.

Point is, these are no longer the 70s and you no longer have to swing 38oz. metal bats. Please quit trying to ruin the game to satisfy your egos.
Oct. 29, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, if all you want to do is hit homers why not just take BP and skip the games altogether?
Oct. 29, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Einstein thanks for the props!! You guys were clearly the better team then us Sunday and deserved to win. If you hadn't lost your first game you may have won it all. It's tough to go thru the losers bracket like that.
To address your points: From what I've seen the way many of you guys hit tells me you wouldn't have too much trouble using non U-2's. A good hitter should be able to use any bat and there are plenty of good ones out there. I understand the thrill of hitting and but understand defense is also part of the game. Sure, scoring 5 every inning is most important but so is defense. All weekend I was watching hr after hr sail over the fence, which some was attributable to the U-2. Instead of an outfielder I felt like a ball shagger. To me that's just not the way the game should be played--jmho of course.
It's too bad you guys are breaking up. In addition to being a great team your all a classy bunch of guys. I was hoping you'd come east of the Mississippi next year!! Have a good winter and we'll see ya down the road somewhere
Oct. 29, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Salio2k, of course your implying that the Jeff Hall I use and the U-2 have identical ball speeds coming off the bat--which is undeniably false. And
if the Jeff Hall I use and the Ultra 2 have the same bpf then tell me why is the Ultra is banned from the mens USSSA, NSA, and ISA but not the Jeff Hall?
Your right, I choose what I swing. And I choose not to swing the U-2 because I feel it's wrong for the game. Saying that one shouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight doesn't make it right.
And I'm glad you mentioned ASA. Earlier this year we played in Salem, Virginia--ISSF I beleive, using ASA rules. That means no u-2's or other mikens or many worth bats including the Jeff hall. Although they used a lousy ball, that's the way the game should be played. And since your wondering what bat I would swing in ASA? The answer is I swung a Synergy Blue Flex.
And your last sentencet strikes me as arrogant.
Oct. 29, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
stick8.............My apology, didn't mean to be arrogant, just defending the right to choose that which is legal and used by most seniors. If you choose not to use what is conceived to be the best available, that is your choice. It is hard to believe that you use the Mayhem because you think it is the best for senior play. I think that it fits your hitting style, therefore, good enough.
Oct. 29, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Stick great job out of you, this is Joe from the MOB. Verify something for me it was my contention that with the senior bats I noticed OF play except in one of our games never came in to play. Basically all of the show stopper type plays where rallies were killed happen in the infield. Premium on infield defense. Anything hit in the air with a senior bat is either a flair, or routine fly or gone. Am I nuts what did you see?
Oct. 29, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Joe I have to agree with you.Our infield was patch work and it came back to bite us.SS not there,2nd baseman playing short w/torn rotater cuff 3rd baseman playing 2nd and our 1st baseman playing 3rd.And extra hitter playing 1st.I think we hit well enough..776 as a team two guys hitting .900 + hitting 44 balls over the fence between the two.Just could not stop any one.We got into a war with MTC I believe it was, both teams scoreing 5 an inning the entire game until the open inning.When we were fortunate to rally for 21 runs in the top.Had chances to make plays but did not.I see Sticks point as an outfielder.Most every thing hit out there is either a laser or out of the yard.Leaveing the out fielders to just clean up what the infield missed.I personally am not advocating for change just offering up my opinion.
Oct. 30, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Salio2k, apology accepted. If the U-2 is legaland that's what you like to swing, then so be it. Like I said it's not my place to dictate what you, my teammates or anyone else playing senior ball should swing. This is only a message board where opinions are exchanged. Any decisions are up to the powers that be. If i ever had the chance to meet with them i would express my concerns to them very clearly. But your still missing my point. Not all, but many who use the U-2 who hit hr's are not really home run hitters. Players should earn their merits on the skills they have, not by equipment they use. And I did not say the Mayhem is best for senior ball, I merely stated it suits me fine, I consistently preached and outlined my reasons for the title of the thread-- ban the U-2. There are reasons why it was banned in mens play sir.
Oct. 30, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Joe, thanks for the props and right back at ya!!
Your contention was correct. Outfielders making plays & catches was almost nonexistent. All weekend I watched hr after hr sail over the fence, chased gappers and threw balls into the infield. In the 7 total games I played in left center, I think I made 4 catches. The infielders were the ones who made the defensive show stopping plays as you put it. Your ss definitely did that and in reality it makes a huge difference in a game. He must have been a stud in his youth. I've always felt offense wins you games, defense wins you tournaments. We certainly have the offense down pat, as you guys do, but our defense definitely needs shoring up whereas yours played pretty well.
BTW, I don't think your crazy, I'm the one who's crazy!! In the span of 2 months I traveled from Michigan to Vegas, Michigan to Utah and Michigan to Arizona--the last two being week after week. That's a lot of traveling. But I'd definitely do it again!!
Sorry to hear the MOB is breaking up. Good team and a good bunch of guys. Good luck with your new team and take it easy on us!! Have a good winter and stay healthy!!
Oct. 30, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Ray,
Look what you goaded me into here!!
haha
Oct. 30, 2008
Gary Heifner
248 posts
Just played in the 60 AA in Phoenix. In our 7 games there was a single HR in 4 of them and none in the other 3. Don't underestimate the AA. There were at least 6 teams that the AAA and Major teams would have had to play at a high level to beat. My team has played against numerous AAA and major teams this year and I haven't seen balls flying out on command. If the Ultra is banned then go back to a 50 core ball like we used to hit. If the ultra gets banned, what's the next bat the guys who have no chance of ever hitting an HR will go after for banning. I don't want to end up with ASA equipment. My team played in two ASA tournies in recent years and talk about pinic type softball. Never again,
Oct. 30, 2008
RG
19 posts
Stick it was good to see you the past two weekends, you are hard to get out as we could not do it in either of the games we played you. You have a very interesting post, because even as an infielder you can not cover very much area with the U2. I do swing it because it is the best legal bat out their for me and like hitting the long ball. I do love to play defense though and the U2 takes away much of the defense in the infield also. I would be comfortable hitting my freak that I use in USSSA. Lecak and Eiinstein it was great meeting you guys, sound like you started playing after your first loss on Saturday. Sorry to hear your team is breaking up. Ray it was also good to visit with you also. Look forward to seeing everyone again next year.

Randy
Oct. 30, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Stick, can you say Pandora's Box.You don't mess with a man's weapon(bat).Thats way I suggested changing the ball,I new better.I have a meeting coming up in Detroit soon, about making some significant changes next year.I will keep you updated.Randy my friend always a pleasure to see you and the wife.Look forward to next year,stay in touch.

Ray
Oct. 30, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Hi Randy that was quite a tournament, really enjoyed our game although it didn't go our way. We the MOB have disbanded, most of the guys should land on good situations. As for me I'm sure things will be fine and we will be seeing you and KC Barrons team and Ray's team. Ray you're scaring me with meetings and significant changes I can only imagine. Please no more guys like Reedus and Big Bob there aren't enough softballs. I was only half joking about Bob hitting a softball 600 ft in the mile high air in Reno, I really think he could do it. He is a spectacular hitter, I stood on !B and watched in amazement. I'm sure Dirty will chime in about a guy hitting 500 ft plus bombs, from what I saw he could hit a cherry tomato with a celery stick further than most guys can with an Ultra. As to banning the Ultra too tough a call for my small mind to grasp. I truly believe attendance would be greatly impaired if they banned all the senior bats. Of all the formats we as a major team played LVSSA had the best combo for me, 7 runs 7HR's and singles with an open inning. Randy any chance you play again in Huntsman with Academy sports?
Oct. 30, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
I agree Joe the 7 hr 7 run limits were perfect for major.With the present format used by ssusa of 3hr 5 run limit alot of teams are in the wrong div. when major teams are hitting 10 to 15 bombs a game.I think if you go to the Vegas for mat for M+ 20% of major teams could compete w/M+ maybe not win but compete.
Oct. 31, 2008
F.O.G.
Men's 40
105 posts
Pesonally, I can't see banning any of the senior bats available to us. They are part of the draw to Senior Softball. My thought is if these bats were banned there would be alot more players doing things like...shaving bats.

I'm very much against shaving bats, but I always use the hottest legal bat allowed to a tourney. Just my humble opinion.
Oct. 31, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
So if old guys cannot hit homers they won't want to play? That being the case, who would want guys with that attitude anyway?

Keep the bats, fine with me, but to concurrently claim an interest in safety is laughable.
Oct. 31, 2008
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
I have played competitive softball for 38 years. I have never knowingly swung an illegal bat, that is why I never use anyone elses bat ever in a game. I have been around those who have and it makes no difference what level or age. It is just hilarious when you see an entire team you the same bat even though there 5 just like it in the bat rack.

Even when senior softball moved to the ULTRA there were those who took U1 and tried to make them look like U2's. Shaving, repainted, removing the bar, bat warmers geez the list is rampant. If it is not the bats, it is the balls, keep in the cooler, microwave them, shoot them with Nitrogen.

Point is if you make great equipment, bats and balls available, then there is less of the other happening. My job has always been hit the ball as hard as I can and good things happen. It bugs me when a 170 lb player hits ball 310', but you go with the flow. Set a standard for everyone and the game will evolve.

Since 1970, wood, aluminum, CU31, C405, Titanium, single wall, double wall, triple wall, wave, ceramic, composite, good grief Charley Brown.
Oct. 31, 2008
SLOBALL1
Men's 50
173 posts
Gekle/ Ray who were the two guys that hit .900?
Oct. 31, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
Oct. 31
Dirty
Posts: 230
So if old guys cannot hit homers they won't want to play? That being the case, who would want guys with that attitude anyway?

Keep the bats, fine with me, but to concurrently claim an interest in safety is laughable.

well if you would help us with the timing problem we have with our hitting and fielding,this would not be laughable.i do wish you could enlighten us on this once and for all.thats what is laughable is a sotftballer holding back info to help others play a better game.
Oct. 31, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Despite my many attempts, I have come to accept you are far too opaque for any light to shine through.
Oct. 31, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
you have made no attempts to enlighten us on this timing issue we all seem to have so we can bat 1.000,so how can you say you have,liar.
Oct. 31, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Try the Timing thread for numerous examples.

And it is NOT an issue, or really shouldn't be, so what were there be to enlighten about? Perhaps you don't understand the difference between timing and mechanics, just as you don't understand the batter's box.
Oct. 31, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Softball 1 Our #3 hitter Bob Woldyk went 29 for 31 with 25 balls over fence and our # 4 hitter hit 27 for 30 with 19 over fence. obviously not all counted as HRS.#4 hitter is Carl Underwood
Oct. 31, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Randy it was good seeing you again and thanks for the props. Right back at you with those!!
I'm suprised you guys didn't do better in the elimination tourney. Since most of the major teams are evenly matched perhaps if it was held this weekend it would likely be a totally different result.
I guess I'm just one of these guys that feels the ultra 2 isn't the true measure of a hitters skills. Almost anyone can be a hr hitter with it and I just don't think the many of players who hit hr's with the U-2 are bonafide hr hitters. Using a lower core/compression ball might be an idea but I'm not sure if that would make the U-2 less effective or not. Not that I'm necessarily that good at it but I'm like you in that I like to play defense and being an infielder 98% of my career I understand your point. I enjoy playing outfield and it can be a good workout but watching hr after hr sail over the fence is actually boring and doesn't bode too well for defense.
It's too bad we couldn't circumvent the rules and have you play with us. We could sure have used you last weekend.
Have a good winter and stay healthy!!
Stick
Oct. 31, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
This is a another fine mess you have got you self into Stick.

HA-HA
Oct. 31, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Sorry that last post was to SLOBALL1 not softball1 #%^*&@#$%
Oct. 31, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
mechanics ?? what does car repair have to do with softball,oh you mean the timing in my car to run right,maybe thats the timing thing you are talking about and that it has nothing to do with hitting.i just wish you express yourself more clearly as you confusing people who want to bat 1.000.
Oct. 31, 2008
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
By using the term "mechanics" I should not be confusing anyone who has any understanding of the swing.
Oct. 31, 2008
mad dog
Men's 60
3919 posts
well please explain,you still have not told us on how our timing can be better,so we can bat 1.000.
Oct. 31, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Ray I'm holding you responsible for this madness
haha
Nov. 1, 2008
Gekle BUilders
Men's 50
204 posts
Now you've done it Stick,All them singles you hit with that Mayhem has got us moved up to Major +.I told ya to make an out every now and than!!!!!!!!
Nov. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Waldyke's worth the price of admission and letting them be singles instead of outs
keeps the show going for all of us to enjoy.
Gekel hitters are as good as any hitters in Senior Softball.
He's got a sense of humor, too.
I through a knuckleball by him for a strike
and mentioned it to the crowd as a major accomplishment
and he hit the next pitch 400 feet over the fence in left.

But what great hitters, pitchers, fielders do
like Waldyke, Clatta, Mickey Hughes is they set the bar
and all of us come after them to mark ourselves
often rising up, improving making ourselves
and the game better.
I sense that some teams actually play hit their best
against me because they know I'm trying to strike everyone of them out.
Nov. 2, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Just a little 'ole non-ulta hitting singles hitter like me made us move up? Damn.
Are we going to the TOC in January?
Nov. 25, 2008
vision33
3 posts
For those of you complaining about the ultra dont play the game, 90% of bats used are doctored anyway. You can't stop it, unless the bat company's make a bat that changes color once the bat is doctored,every bat must be made this way in order to ensure the saftey and integerty of the game.
Nov. 25, 2008
taits
Men's 65
4249 posts
vision33,
Actually that changing of colors is in the works by at least one company.
As for the banning, it isn't going to happen. There are too many bats out there that are as good as it is and then next thing you know they (Dirty) will want all bats banned that are not ASA approved or wood (lol). We might get lucky and utrip or NSA will be good to go.
If it's legal for the Assn, and you want to use it, use it.
.02
Nov. 25, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
There is one misconception that is being passed on in this thread that is just being being accepted without argument. The ASA banned the ultra and ultra II early on and believe me guys, it wasnt just because of its performance. It was because its performance was undeniably better than any bat the competitors could make at the time. Miken was the "new kid" in the bat business and the incumbents couldnt make a bat to compete with it. I WAS IN THE COURT ROOM, I know what I am talking about. TODAY only Combat can compete with them and its about 7 years later. Its always about money and thats what it was about then. The insurance companies have not seen an increase in batted ball injuries, thats a money statistic. If that statistic changes then we should talk of changing. The ASA has a serious problem with bats. Senior softball does not have a bat problem.
Dirty, stop posting such ignorance.
Nov. 25, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
To all of you knot heads: The old 1890 ASTM, had it's faults. The C.O.P, was @ one point on a bat.s barrel.

The revisied ASTM 1890, test the C.O.P. @ five points on a bats barrel. Thats, why, only ASA, uses the ASTM 2219.

ASA's , ASTM 2219 was designed by an out of work Bat Engineer. This standard has meany flaws.

ASA, told the bat testing labs, to help the bat companies, inorder to for ASA's,to get their $1.50 for each bat made under ASA's, licsening agreements with Miken, Easton, Worth, etc.

In 2003, the Bat & Ball companies, told the different softball organizations, not to go to the 40 or 44 cor balls. So, on, & so, on.

Face the "real truth." Todays Senior bats are closer to a 1.25 B.P.F. As is, Senior bats & any bat that still has the old 1.20 B.P.F., are doing 80% of the work. If, Seniors or the softball ruling elite, really gave a damn, about safety, the bat would do only 20% of the work & the ball would do 80%.

What, does this mean in real life. That the batter & not the bat, will have to do the work. NOT BAT & BALL TECH. Or as Gary, post, R & D.

But, hell, I am full of .......
T Hi-J
Nov. 25, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
THE HI-JACKER................I'm with you...........we need better balls for my U2.
Nov. 25, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
Vision33 that's a pretty snarly thing to say. There's a reason why the ultra was banned in mens play. If your that good of a hitter the other bats they make are hot enough out of the wrapper without doctoring them.
Nov. 25, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
Salio 2k: Not sure if, your comment was sincere. My point, was that if, a proper ball is used, the batter & not moden technology, would be the force behind the long ball.

Todays Bats & Balls combination, needs to change, if, SAFETY, is of any concern.

If, the U-2, is used, Senior Softball, should find a ball, that the batter & ball do the work; not moden technology. As, is, again the bats are preforming & doing 80% the work. When will the ability of the batter, timing, etc, come back.

If, my research or ability to read & understand data, the present day bats & balls, can bring back SAFETY & still allow the long ball.

It is a shame that anyone can hit a bomb. Some where a players ability, has been lost.

T Hi-J
Nov. 26, 2008
Robo2
213 posts
Do not ban the Ultra or any other senior bat. If you don't like playing with these bats go play ASA toruneys and see what happens. You will come up against teams that use altered bats. If you challenge one, they just pull another one just like it out of the bag.

Besides, the popularity is with the players. See how many teams go to tourney s that allow use of Ultra (and other senior bats) vs ones that do not. The great majority of ball players want them. it is only a very few that speak out against their use. I have played tourneys for 6 years and we keep stats on HRs for our team. It is not as easy as one thinks tohit a softball 300 ft
Nov. 26, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
THE HI-JACKER.......I was joking. This thread was resurrected from the dead pile. We've been through this before. Look in the dugout at tourneys; you will see mostly the Ultra and other legal bats. I just played in Vegas for Winter Worlds and did not use an Ultra. I used another legal bat. There are a small number of players that is concerned with pitcher safety as you and others are. I went to a tourney once where a team dropped out because they could not use an Ultra. I think that it is going to be up to the pitcher to protect him if he deems it necessary.
Nov. 26, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
I'm seeing MORE crap posted about bats and I just cant keep quiet. I witnessed the ASA bat wizard, Smith from Washington Univ, put on a mumbo jumbo bat routine in the courtroom that Hollywood would love. David Copperfield would have loved it. At its conclusion the judge allowed a couple of questions. Hold on to your hats , take a deep breath and listen for just a second. The ASA admitted that they have NEVER tested a bat that tested out at 100 MPH in the test they administer. We were shocked and asked the question 3 times so that there would be no misunderstanding. They repeated.."No bat has ever tested at 100 MPH or greater". They were shown catalogs of Anaconda Sports, Softball Sales and Direct Sports where there were all kinds of bats that were listed as 100MPH bats. The ASA's answer was emphatically that those numbers were just sales hype and were lies. They have never tested a bat that rated at 100 MPH or greater. The ASA bat test is BOGUS, worthless, and yet guys with some kind of special inside knowledge go on boards all across the country with more mumbo jumbo to support these bogus tests. Bogus tests were developed to keep the money where the testor wants the money to be. Then these softball goof balls go on here and give stats that support the bogus test.
Nov. 26, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hi Jack,
We don't want the bat/ball combo changed
and we're gonna make it stick.
Jim,
You make more sense than anyone yet as to what has gone on and why
and it's always follow the money, then and now.
A live ball is a must regardless of the bat
and the hot bats ensure being able to have the fun
that is essential to the game.
So where does that leave us?
Not a farthing less than
a very good 44 x 375 ball (Baden, Trump and others)
with 1.2 bats.
No squishy balls that don't fly.
No high core balls you just have to hit "correctly" to get them
over a 300 foot fence.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
We're done being played.
Aren't we.
Nov. 26, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
T-H-J
Nice post, I guess some seniors want to be recognized for their ability not what bat you can buy. To bad to many have to have the senior bats or they are just average at best hitters.
Nov. 26, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
JIM 16: It has been known that ASA, NSA, U-TRIP, do not & have never test bats. Part of the bat licensing agreement that ASA & others have is that the bat manufactors, sent a minuim of two bats to get tested.

The bats are sent to one of the following labs that test bats: 1) Fluid Tech' 2) Southern Impact 3) Rhode Island 4) Washington State 5) Detriot Testing Lab. Once the bats have been tested, the Bat Companies sent the test results & sign some form of "agreement."

Have you seen this statement by a SPA member?
"XXXX, I was at the SPA in Dallas and just got to your e-mail. Thanks for your response. I think NSA has been feeding SPA a line. I don't believe NSA bought two Synergies and tested them because the first batch of the bat had been sold out for a month and Easton hadn't been shipping any more to stores. Why does the Synergy remain approved by ASA and USSSA if what NSA says is true and USSSA uses the same 1.20 BPF test? I'm writing an article about it's time to end this banning of bats mid-season for the next issue of the Minnesota softball publication. Dick "

There are many persons involved: 1) Matt Kovaes (Easton) 2) Eddie Ray Cantrell (NSA) 3) Rusty Trudeau (Baten Sports) 4) Loren Gress (Decker Sports) 5) Dr. Larry Noble (KSU) 6) Kelly McKeown (ASA) 7) Dr. Mark Mc Dowell 8) Kevin Schullman (Trump / Anaconda Sports)

If, batters can swing a bat faster than 100 MPH, & the TV show Sports Science, show & calaculate BBS, of over 135 MPH, is all or just some of this data, false.

What is really going on? T Hi-J
Nov. 26, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
T-H-J
You give me far to much credit. I have nothing to do with any test lab or approvals of equipment for any association.
I do however have to get my softballs tested and approved with every association and pay them a royalty fee. Same goes for the senior combats, they are tested by NYU Sport Science lab and the results are then sent to ss-usa for approval.
Nov. 26, 2008
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
Trump-I am starting to detect a smugness about who the "real hitters are and who isn``t " in your posts . If i am reading you wrong , then I apologize . If everyone is using these bats , what is the big deal ? I know that it keeps a lot of the 60 and overs in the game .Everyone is on equal footing . If someone , that isn`t deemed to be a homerun hitter hits an occasional homerun ,or some base hitter hits a gapper , big deal . Good for him . Keeps him interested and keeps enough guys comming out to give us more teams to play .In a perfect world everyone would just be happy to be playing . But , as we know , this isn`t a perfect world .If they get rid of these bats ,then as some guys have said , we will end up with the shaved bats , that are rampant with the younger guys . Since these bats last about 1/3 to 1/2 as long as a normal bat . I don`t know if the bat companies are deep down really too concerned anyway . In reality , these bats , create more sales for them . My opinion of course .Keeping enough guys interested in the game to maintain a healthy amount of teams. Is worth hurting the ego of some of the" true" homerun hitters . I kow a guy ,(290 lb. weight lifter ) , hat I used to play with , that quit playing when composites first came out . He said it wasn`t enjoyable to him now that normal size guys were able to hit homeruns . He only enjoyed playing because of the praise he got for being better than mere mortals . I told him he was only hurting himself . Didn`t do anygood . He no longer plays and softball survived . Without the masses we have no game . The true super hitters are still very apparent to all of us that play this game .They are not diminished by using an Ultra 11 .They are still admired for there ability . Just as they woul be using any kind of bat . What is the big deal here ?
Nov. 26, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Foothils,
Great comments.
For the record
I used a couple of threads to determine that over 80 of the posters
are known for who they in fact are, not just their monikers.
It's obviously preferred for all the right reasons.
Let us know who you are or
you can email me at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
to talk to me anytime.

I haven't met a player yet on any level
who's said to my face that they favor a lesser bat/ball combination.
Not one, senior or not.
We won't go to SPA next year for example
unless Ridge guarantees a better ball than last year.
So, the powers that be better get it right
or no one's going to like it or attend their events.
Nov. 26, 2008
Foothills
Men's 55
76 posts
Einstein- I just updated my info .
Nov. 27, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
I am not against players being able to hit homeruns.
Like in any competition there are 2 sides. At true game of competition should be balanced. The game has changed the rules have been changed due to an im-balance of the equipment. When an entire game has to be changed due to equipment you are no longer competing on your ability to play, you are competing due to falsely enhanced ability due to equipment.

The game now is all about offense, score five runs evey inning and change side is not what this sport was ever intended to be.

What if major league baseball did the same? Would anyone watch? What would happen to the records that true ball players set? Didn't we just go through this with Barry Bonds? If you feel so passionate about this why aren't you ALL petitioning congress in Barry Bonds behalf? After all he is accused falsely enhancing his ability also...
Nov. 27, 2008
Lecak
Men's 55
1004 posts
Trumpball I understand your thoughts on the equipment not going to go there but I would submit that poor defense at the senior level (mine included) is more responsible for the 5 run rule. The only division that has unlimited runs is the M+ and that is the group that benefits least from the great equipment. Maybe the senior bats are not allowed at the 50/55 major/major plus level and the rest given age and less homeruns in the other divisions use senior bats. If good defense was being played nobody would ever advertise themselves as a 750 avg hitter. I think dialing back the bats would make for better OF defense not sure it would make a whole lot of difference in the IF though.
Nov. 27, 2008
Ken
Men's 55
462 posts
Lecak and Trumpball, I would agree with you if we could be sure that the cheaters wouldn't get away with the shaved bats. You must agree that these bats will appear more than they are now if we lose the senior bats. Whenever I play in a league or tournament that doesn't allow senior bats there is some guy hitting the ball a lot farther than anyone else. You know he's got a funny bat and you end up feeling like you've been cheated. This will almost certainly happen if the senior bats go away. Right now, nobody has an advantage by cheating. Until we can find a way to ensure every bat is legal we have no choice but to keep the status quo.
Nov. 27, 2008
MaverickAH
59 posts
Jm16: Could you pleae post the date & jurisdiction of this court hearing you partcipated in. I'd be interested in reading the deposition.

Outside of that the one issue have with the U2 is that it is not a 1.20BPF bat. That is why it is banned in every other association.

How does SSUSA test senior bats?

Why use any bat that abnormally enhances a senior's natural ability? Lord knows that there is no such remedy on the defensive side of things. This, IMHO, is the main issue in regards to safety concerns. Age robs us all of the abilities we had when we were younger yet we choose to enhance the one part of slow pitch that is the easiest to maintain as we get older.
Nov. 27, 2008
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
I don't think that SSUSA has a test. ASA put their sticker on the Ultra 10 years ago. SSUSA just gave the seniors what they wanted.
Nov. 27, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
The lawsuit was in Brazoria County Texas and I believe there was only one hearing open to the public. The basis of the lawsuit was as I understand it, " Your honor, I bought this bat and relied on this certification put on the bat. I went to the local park and they said it wasnt ASA legal. I dont care what the argument is between the ASA and the manufacturer, I am the consumer. Either make them give me my money back or make them let me use it."The argument isnt complicated. The defendants were Softball sales, Miken and ASA. Softball Sales and Miken were no shows and the ASA basically argued that they only make reccomendations and what is actually used is up to the local parks. The hearing lasted all day and I was there as it was open to the public. The ASA put up a dog and pony show but there were highlights.
I heard all of the argumets and listened carefully. The ASA adamnatly stated that no bat had ever tested at 100 MPH and they testified that they were only interested in the integrity of the game, not danger.
I am not privvy to the outcome of the case and I beleieve that it was settled out of court with confidentiality.
Had I been part of a jury hearing the case there would be no way I would have believed much of what the ASA swore to. They were evasive and at times I believe they lied. Their umpire in chief was especailly a joke. He testified that he was the biggest expert ever in softball and then testified he didnt even recognize what an ultra or ultra II was. This about all I know about the suit.
The game can be controlled with the ball. Trying to control the game with the bat is folly. We have a bat standard in senior softball that is right on. We do not need problems like the ASA has created. If our game needs changes it can easily be done with the ball. I personally believe that the bat and ball we use is the best but if it needs to change, only the ball needs to be looked at. We can throw in balls that even the greatest hitters can not hit 300 feet if we want to. I think we have the right balance now and do not want it changed.
SS-USA does not test bats, they rely on the labs for that. Laboratries test bats and balls,associations run programs and insurance companies calculate risks. We play softball.
SS-USA and SPA run the best programs and they rely on the labs and buy insurance.
Nov. 27, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Way to go, Foothils.
Hey John.

Barry Bonds is thought to be illegally using a steroid.
That's obviously the issue about him.
Not the long ball.

Babe Ruth favored the long ball saying if he was to hit singles and doubles
he'd have hit .650.
The long ball a la McGuire and Sosa brought the game back from the money making mantra that almost killed it.
Studies show that fans love run production and it signals what is most enjoyable
about the game.
Guys thinking more about making money than the game can kill softball, too.
As long as guys use the same equipment
the game is fair.
Period.

We have elitists in senior softball of varying kinds who don't represent
the whole of us or what is good for us.
We need and deserve a live bat/ball combination for our enjoyment
and the future of the game.
It doesn't matter how you slice it.

Jim says it's all about the ball.
I agree.
A good ball and any decent bat
wouldn't have produced all the money that both bat and ball manufactureres
have been making off us for over a decade now.

Let's go back to a good 525 x 47 ball
and 1.2 bats and let the games begin.
We play that way in NorCal, all the time
and have a blast.
Nov. 28, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
"Let's go back to a good 525 x 47 ball and 1.2 bats and let the games begin. We play that way in NorCal, all the time and have a blast"

Great statment here joe, I agree. The only problem is ball speeds through the infield would increase, home run distance would decrease and every senior bat on the market would be banned. None of the senior bats would pass the real 1.20 bpf test.
Nov. 28, 2008
Lefty
Men's 65
451 posts
I play ASA with the young guys sometimes and love it. Now why do I love it. It's because they use the best ASA ball, the Dudley Advance 375/44core. The reason I like this ball it last forever. You can hit hit hit and hit this ball and it still performs great. Now you take a senior tourneyment they use the Ultra type bats like they're doing you a favorite and then buy cheap balls that last maybe the first day of the tourneyment. They use this same ball until the champion ship games. They admit there are less HR's using the Ultra bats now than the USSSA bats before they let the Ultra's come back. It's all about the money. They let you use the Ultra's and buy cheaper balls. If you think it's not the ball. Get a new Dudley Advance an see how far that sucker will fly. It will fly 20 to 30 feet farther. It depends on who is hitting. This Ultra2 we are buying now does not out hit the 2003 original ultra 2. At lease not the ones that I've been hitting with at the tourneyments.
Nov. 28, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
Lefty, Thank you for your opinion. Too bad its wrong. The ultra II hasnt changed. When you see or hit with an old ultra II with the ASA stamp, the reason its better is because its lasted so long. The old ones that broke in the first few swings werent as durable as the ones that lasted a long time. Its a silly statement. Its self fullfilling.
No ball outperforms the Trump balls. Only balls ever made that outperformed the trumps were illegal balls and the ASA put a stop to it. If you were in the industry you would know why the Dudley doesnt outperform the trump. BTW the trump doesnt outperform the dudley either.
Nov. 28, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
The 47 cor ball with a 525 comp. Trumpball, is correct on B.B.S. & on Speed thru the infield, Another point that many may miss. The 47 cor ball with a 525 comp, breaks more bats. Does not matter weither the bat is Aluminum or Composite.

If, one really wants to hit a dangerous ball, try hitting a 40 cor / 525 comp ball.

A 47 cor ball with a 375 comp for winter & a 50 cor ball with a 375 comp in the summer, would be the better chose. I am not sure if that most players are awear that a 44 cor ball with a 525 comp will "fly" farther than a 47 cor ball with a 375 comp.

Trumpball, will you "educate" seniors more on the bat & ball subject. Some do not seem to understand that the different Softball elite, (ASA, NSA, ISA, USSSA, etc), are the ones that inform Bat & Ball companies, just what should be done.

As far as SS-SSA, is the 1.20 BPF, the old or revised ASTM F1890?


T Hi-J
Nov. 28, 2008
Lefty
Men's 65
451 posts
jim16 You know who I am but I don't know you or anyone else that knows you. As for as I know you could be the bat boy cause all you are is talk because as for as I know you could be Dirty using another name. So put your real name some where and if someone knows you they'll tell us this old boy is the real thing.
Nov. 28, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
ASA & Dr. Brandit Lawsuit: Does anyone care? ASA, hired Dr. Brandit, inwhich the start of all of the bat banning, etc.

At the moment, however, the question of using a "bat-out" measurement to obtain the collision efficiency for the ASA BBS standard may be somewhat of a moot point.

Richard Brandt, the inventor of the Bat Performance Factor, has patented the "bat-out" technique[10] and subsequently sued the ASA to prevent them from using it to certify bats.*

The lawsuit has been settled out of court, and all references to BPF and "bat-out" measurements have been removed from the current version of ASTM F2219.

* As of May 2008, the ASA has apparently reached an agreement wth Dr. Brandt to allow use of a Bat-Out measurement (through a potentiometer in the pivot) for the testing and certification of softball bats for the ASA.


What does this mean. (I read to much?)
T Hi-J
Nov. 28, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I don't know Jack about balls and how their made
or which test higher hotter and better.
I remember the 47 x 525 Worth blue dots and the level they were at
and that just about any bat worked very well with them.
It's the effect, that effect I'm interested in, not the specs.
I think Jim Carey is right that it's about the ball
But we need to be able to drive/hit the ball well
and I speak for the majority of players
and we want, need and will only invest in a good ball or bat/ball combo.
Nov. 28, 2008
Lefty
Men's 65
451 posts
Jim16 I forgot that you sell the Senior Combat. Love the bat. I guess everyone likes to use their favorite balls. It's just my input on balls. I'm not an expert I only hit 600 balls a week.
Nov. 28, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Lefty,
I have heard very good things about that Dudley Ball
and I don't think it's an accident that in Phoenix in the 60 and over
dozens of x-tra balls were bought and used advantageously by the winner
of the tournament.
The more fresh balls that could be put in the tournament
the better the chances of winning.
They got soft and less than mediocre very quickly in the 90 degree temp.
A better ball would have made less purchases necessary
it cannot be argued.
Just follow the money.
Jim is Jim Carey who works with/for Anaconda Sports
and Kevin Schulstrom
which makes Trump balls and Combat bats.

We need good bat/ball combo that protects and insures the quality of our experience
our investment in equipment to date and going forward in Senior Ball.
All the TD's and sellers of bats and balls have to do
is listen to us instead of telling us
what we should want and need.
We who participate, love, play, travel
and invest in Senior Softball 2008.
Nov. 29, 2008
Lefty
Men's 65
451 posts
einstein thanks for the words. I believe there's more players that get hurt from a bad bounce, bad throw, sprinkler in the outfield and ect. I don't think it's so much the bat. It's we are getting a little older and slower on our defense. If you pitch and your not that good on your defense. Go ahead an buy protective equip. One of my buddies got hit in the head by the SS. He was running home to win the game. So what do we do. Now the SS can't hit the runner or he will be thrown out the game. I baught me a protective baseball hitters bat just for running the bases. So if you don't want to protect yourself don't blame the other team. Your old enough to know better. If I have to pitch I'm taking everything to protect myself. I want be able to play 60 major this year. There or know teams in my area. But I'll try to go to Dalton Ga. to meet you guys. I try to meet everyone that's on this site. Bunch of good guys. Ya'll pass a good time.
Nov. 29, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
Lefty, I'm sorry but I am at a disadvantage. We have probably met but I cant remember who you are. I was not calling you out, just clearing up a couple of misconceptions, ie old ultra II vs new UII and Dudley vs Trump. In comparing balls there are lots of criteria to examine. 44 375 just doesnt tell the whole story. Trump makes many 44 375 balls that are differnet from each other. The SS-USA ball is VERY durable and play is consistent with new vs old ones. However, it is affected by temperature and it is a synthetic ball. Hit the X rock and you'll probably change your mind about the Dudley. However, there are more likeness to the Dudleys and Trumps than youll ever know.
You are right about danger. The thrown ball is definitely more dangerous that the batted ball, especially at first base where a thrown ball can hit in the temple area and the runner doesnt know its coming. The batted ball injuries are no more prevalent today than in prior years, thats what the insurance companies have determined and they are the only real authority on the subject.
Trumpball could put on a seminar about balls and I'd have to completely defer to him as he is probably the highest authority on that subject. Its why the Trump ball is the number one selling ball in the world and he is their only salesman, now thats pretty powerful.
I believe I'm a little bit of an authoity too and my OPINION isnt the last word but when I take the time to post, my OPINION should at least have some value.
Jim Cary aka seniorsoftballguru Longview TX
Nov. 29, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Joe (great name) Falcon,
You're a breath of fresh air.
An independent thinker.
With balls.
About softball.
Good luck finding a good team.

I sure hope it doesn't come to an "us and them" situation
with respect to balls and bats.
The sellers, insurers and TD's on one side
and the players on the other.

Jim Carey made the point about insurance companies
being the evidence regarding there being more injuries.
Can you say, conflict of interest.
Of course they'd want to see more danger
because then, they make more money.

Let me make this perfectly clear.
Our opinions, those who belong to associations like SSUSA,
SPA, SSWS, ISA et al,
those of us who play, bleed and pay for senior softball
who have been supporting it's institutions and manufacturers
for years now
had all better be heard and listened to
regarding what's going on and what're our needs in senior ball.

This website for example, could poll us anytime it wanted
if it REALLY wanted to know what we want and need.
We could/should express ourselves by posting
and responding to what it is we want and need
or else,
decisions will be made as they are being made for us
about the sport WE play and love.
That's not only not American,
it's myopic and self centered
and has to rely on omniscience and/or luck
to get it right neither of which can be counted on with any consistency
or believability.

Way to go Lefty.
We need more guys like you who are willing to think
honestly and aptly about what it is we ACTUALLY experience
and comment on our own behalf
rather than trusting only those who have meaningful other interests,
in defining and meeting our needs.

Sounds healthy to me.
Sounds like some healthy discussions coming soon
so we can learn from and teach each other
what's most truly in our best senior softball interests
going forward.

Sign in, be respectful and let's hear about
what you think's happening and needs to happen in/for our sport.
Nov. 30, 2008
firebird380hp
Men's 50
81 posts
I just dont see why they don't leave well enough alone!!! I do understand why it's some concern about pitchers because I am one also, but at the sametime I'm a grown man and take full responsibility when I go on the mound.And if and when I feel I need to protect myself I have the equip. to do so.(So just leave the bats and balls alone.)
Now u-trip is trying to dumb down the balls.Has anyone or assoc. ever shown the public how many were hurt from the current bat& balls we use now?
Nov. 30, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
There's an old cliche
I hear a lot these days at the coffee shop.
Stats never lie and liars use stats.

There's a number of different sources for injuries in the modern era...
where they come from, how often etc.
Gary Tryhorn argued successfully to NorCal a couple of years ago
that significant injury didn't increase when we went to Ultra 2's
and I believe he was right.
I have a career ending hamstring injury
that had nothing to do with the ball.
In the NorCal Association mentioned above
we often use 525 x 47 balls in our tournaments with 1.2 bats
and have a blast.

We have learned that TD's and ball and bat manufacturers
have an interest in not being sued or liable, so they say,
if and when an injury takes place from a batted ball.
So, the bat/ball combinations has seriously deteriorated
in the last couple of years and unless we say
no they'll continue to drop as the cash register continues to ring
for all those whom we pay to play our game.
At SPA this year for example,
Ridge Hooks used iless than mediocre balls
at a national championship and we learned
he asked the manufacturer to dumb them down.
Big mistake, Ridge.
I say don't go to SPA next year unless
he convinces us that a good ball will be used.
I heard that the ball in SSUSA Winter worlds this year
was a good one.
Way to go, Dave and Frannie.

I and many others have had enough
and want to see this trend discontinued.
Nov. 30, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
stats never lie and liars use stats? I most surely hope that statment was not intended for me. Considering you are a self admitted liar and slanderer from you pathetic attempt to apolagize for you libelist posts of the past.

How soon we forget, or at least try to.

That being said the balls from the winternationals are the exact same balls from Pheonix, actually they were the leftover balls from Pheonix.

I don't remember any stats thrown around by you during your crusade to falsley accuse me and my company for your own personal self admitted agenda. Maybe you need to rethink that saying.

Maybe something like this.
Those who cry the most have the most to lose.
Nov. 30, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I never mentioned anyone's name Kevin because I was referring to all
ball/bat manufacturers and TD's but you sure are sensitive to any criticism
aren't you.
To avoid wasting everyone's time why don't you email me
or call me and we can talk about this
but you if think you have legitimate arguments to make about
the current trends in senior softball and who's winning and losing from them
I think that's germane to us in senior softball, across the board.

I apologized for making my argument with you personal and not contacting you
off line.
I apologized for standing you up a little longer than normal
with my own conflict of interest at the time.
These are all a matter or record and in the past.

I don't apologize for defending myself against your personal attacks and
I don't apologize or see the need to apologize for my experience,
observations and views regarding conflicts of interest,
bat/ball trends, and "following the money" for Senior Softball across the country
of which I still am an active member and participant.

All out in the open for everyone to see.
As you or anyone has concerns, needs or wants
just follow the rules like the rest of us, Kevin.
Be respectful and positive and make your arguments.
Owning a company that makes tons of money off us
doesn't give you any more authority or remove you from equal application
of SSUSA website standards, or does it.
Dec. 1, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
Did your mirror break?
You once again amaze me, you have been on here calling out everyone involved in senior softball from Terry to the sponsors that pay for you.......

It is a ploy against senior softball and Joe Rinaldi that we are all trying to kill senior softball, whaa, whaa ,whaa. Man pack your crying towel away and be a man. You are so quick to criticize but when someone speaks the truth it is suddenly an attack. Read your own post Joe they all attack some one.

The balls in Pheonix sucked, the balls in vegas were good. They are the same ball. So that tells me that you just have the need to bash someone, blah blah blah.

I think it is hilarious that a grown man thinks he has so many enemys that everyone is trying to ruin his fun.
Trust me Joe you are not even on the radar of any and or all of the people that make the calls for softball.

I'd be glad to buy you a new mirror if that would help you out, I really would like to see you speak intelligently before I die.

Well I got to go now and pack for the Senior softball convention. I always like to go to the manufactures meetings and discuss on field safety concerns.

What is really important to me Joe is what does follow the money mean? This has me baffeled.

I sell softballs, we make money from that. You need softballs to play, the association pays for them. Where's the link to follow the money?

We sell senior bats, you need senior bats to play. Why do you need senior softball bats? Because you say so.
Dec. 1, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin,
Remember, if you really have something you want to say to me personally,
man to man, you can call me or email me, anytime.

Follow the money, Kevin?
You are the money.
And congratulations, truly
on being so successful in very difficult and demanding times.
It takes a lot to be on top, stay on top of the pile
as we all try to move together, better.


It's more than interesting to me that someone as bright and articulate as you
has trouble understanding so fundamental a concept as follow the money.
You can't be serioius but if you are
maybe you don't want to understand it.
I've got a good mirror if you need one, too.

Are you going to sit there and say that there hasn't been a trend
in and around softball in the last chunk of time to dumb down the equipment?
Bats getting stiffer, balls getting worse?
TD's, Ball manufacturers, bat manufactureres, insurance companies
trying to minimize risk and maximize profits?
Sounds a lot like big business to me and we
who show up and play the game are seeing it
ALL the time.

Are you also trying to say that all of us who have experienced and pay for this new trend are blind and in denial about it?
There's someone in denial all right.
Mirror?

And you have the antidote or say you have
with the new ball you're working on
and of course the bats have to be tuned/timed to the new ball
and new practice balls must be bought to help learn how to hit
with the new bats and balls.

A conflict of interests is another concept
you may have difficulty understanding or accepting.

Do you think you don't have a conflict of interests around
senior softball being so interested in selling and maintaining
your market position as real changes occur and trying to be interested
in the game itself and what WE players may be saying they want and need?

Look,
I think you're a terrific guy as bright as they come
but senior softball's got some problems and trends that a lot of us seem
to understand better than you.

We who play and pay for the game,
don't want a lesser bat and ball combination
than what is necessary to our enjoyment and investment.
I don't care who's telling you to develop a new ball
and bat combo.
Guarantee that we'll be able to hit it like we did
with 47 x 525 Blue Dots and good single wall bats.

I was talking to Clatter last night and we both don't want
to play the game if the ball/bat combo means we won't have fun
hitting the ball hard through the infield or into the outfield
It is a fundamentally satisfying thing for us without which
it's not worth playing.
I really don't think you get this enough.
Really.
And I don't hang out with the important guys like you do
but I play the game and know the players as well as anyone
and I know what we experience, feel and talk about.
And you'd do well to listen to us more
instead of tell us what we want and need.
Dec. 1, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
The funniest thing you say is that I have an impact on a decisions in senior softball. I have nothing to do with any of the equipment and safety decisions for senior softball. Many of your friends are the ones making the rules. Your friends that you have eluded to on this very board. Why aren't you whinning to them?

Like I said what money trail?
I sell softballs to SS-USA for tournaments. Where does that effect you?

I sell miken ultraII, senior combats, geezers, and worth 510's where does that effect you. No one is holding a gun to your head to buy a bat. Did you buy your last bat from Anaconda sports? No, so where did we effect you? What money trail, I can assure you that my money trail goes the opposite direction that you believe it goes. We have spent more on senior softball than we have made, just so you can play come home and bitch that everyone in the game is against Joe Rinaldi, boo hoo my heart hurts for poor Joe.
Dec. 1, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You continually miss the point, Kev.
It's not about you and/or me.
Stay blind of the present trend toward bat/ball deterioration
throughout softball and in particular senior softball
and our preference for a good to
very good bat/ball combo
and we're all going to lose.
That's the point.
That's the argument.
Dec. 1, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
If the money trail is not the point why do you keep bringing it up?
Dec. 1, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
Joe, you tell Kevin to stay blind to the present trend toward bat/ball deterioration especially in senior softball. I guess I am missing something. How have we changed the bat/ball combination in senior softball? The UII/senior combat and a 44 375 ball hasnt changed in years and there is NO movement to change it now or in the future. Do you have any clue as to what you are talking about? Stop wasting our time with your drivel, you are just posting crap to get guys worked up. Someone tell me I am wrong. There is no movement by SS USA or SPA that I know of other than Joe Rinaldi's ridiculous rants. The last change was SPA allowing the UII and that was a few years ago.
Dec. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Jim Carey,
By use of the word drivel it sounds like
you might want to make your comments personal to me.
If so, spare the rest of us
and email me and we can talk
at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com.

Do you mean to say that
you and Kevin, as you have comfortably put the two of you together,
never experienced what I hazard most to all of us have in the last
let's say 5 years that the caliber of balls we see in leagues
and tournaments is less than what it once was?
That concerns for both liability, safety and stability
and those championing these issues for their concerns
haven't directly influenced the ball and the bounce of the ball we use?
C'mon, now.
We at NorCal use 525 x 47 balls almost every time we play
you have to admit that's almost unheard of anymore
where 525 x 47 core balls used to be the standard.

That would be quite a disconnect between you guys
and the rest of us in Senior Ball.
It would mean you guys aren't really in touch with us
the players who play, invest in and comprise Senior Softball.

It was just about unanimous that we, the players, Jim,
who attended SPA this year thought the ball RIdge used performed miserably.
And we heard from someone very reputable that the ball rep suggested
Ridge got the ball he asked for.
The Worth Balls, once the standard, are way off what they once were.
The Gold dots we hit on Saturday were terrible and the weather was cold.

I think you guys are missing a great opportunity in front of you,
if you will allow me.
You should be saying that your ball unlike the trend and all these others
not only isn't less but is MORE than it was because we are quality guys
and make only quality products instead of denying
what we all know is going on in and around us.
You should be guaranteeing that we you will help support us
using better balls instead of compromising ones
none of us want to play with.

There are some very smart people around I think
who are trying to stay one step ahead of the curve
who have a lot do with where we are
and where we're going.
Dec. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Jim,
All we want is a good bat/ball combination so we can continue to enjoy
the game WE play, invest in and experience.
We want to able to count on that
like we are currently able to do with SSUSA.
We'd rather not have to spend a ton of money
buying the new "appropriate" balls/bats, all the time.
We don't want to be told
what's best for us.
We know what we want and need.
Just ask us and we'll tell you.

Is that too much to ask for?
Is that not worth standing for and to whomever
so we can have some fun?
Dec. 2, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
This thread has been Hi-Jacked. Can we bury the bat & ball matter. SS-USA & THRUMP, have three more years inwhich THRUMP, will be selling SS-USA, balls for our Senior SS-USA tourneys.

Before 2001 or 2002, SS-USA, did not have any agreement
with any ball company. As was, SS-USA, used what ever ball that was being used in that city, that SS-USA, had an event on going.

In the 50 & 55 Major & Major Plus, the U-2 & a different ball should be looked in too. The ball & bat combination is where more bad bounces seem to happen. In these two age group, the present day bat & ball cominations, causes: 1) a higher & unsafe B.B.S. 2) balls traveling thru the infield at a higher speed (less time to react) 3) very long & at time boring games. My opinion, it is not much fun watching or playing in a 2 1/2 hour game.

As far as the 65 & older age groups, these age group should be able to hit any ball & or ball combination. I hope the 65 & older divisions are completely left alone.

Is senior softball in a mess? Is the 50 & 55 Major / Major Plus age group caught in a " Catch 22"?

T Hi-J
Dec. 2, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Follow the money? Isn't it more appropriate to try to follow the logic?

1. This is the SSUSA Message Board and Mr. einstein seems to indicate (most times) the SSUSA has an acceptable bat/ball combination.
2. The people that seem to know say there's been no change in bat or ball standards at SSUSA for years.
3. Then, why would the bat/ball issue/rant be such a frequent posting topic HERE?
4. If there are other leagues or associations where the bat/ball combination isn't to one's liking, wouldn't THERE be the place to take that up with them?

For me, and probably many my age, it comes back to something I wrote along these lines here in a more contentious thread a few weeks back:

I know I can't hit a ball as far as I used to because of natural aging, not because there is a global softball and bat sabotage campaign directed solely at someone personally.
Dec. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Dave Dowell has pointed out to me that anyone can post
on this site which includes men, women, boys, girls, players, non players,
hermaphrodites, communists, Cuban refugees, Barista girls,
and the intellectually effete, just to name a few.
I'm down with it.
But personally, I have nothing to say
to someone who wants/needs to hide himself from view.
It make more sense to talk to my TV.
Dec. 2, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You Hi-Jacker,
We just want good bats and balls to play with, man
so we can play and have some fun.
Dec. 2, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
Joe, can you at least answer my question.

If the money trail is not the point why do you keep bringing it up?

As for Ridge, I also make softballs for his association. He has never asked me to make our ball less than any of the .44/375 balls that we make. Maybe some of the other companies balls that he uses just aren't as consistant as you would like. He also has many tournaments in very hot and humid locals, that will also hurt ball performance.




Also I have a proposition to make you. Joe I will give you 50% of our profit to you if you agree to pay 50% of our lost revenue annually in senior softball.
Dec. 2, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
As usual, Mr. einstein, hypocrisy runs rampant in your posts:

Member info for DesertGuy
Division: Men's 60
Location: Tucson, AZ

Member info for THE HI-JACKER
No details for THE HI-JACKER

Yet, THJ gets his own personal reply! I actually feel fortunate. Now if we could just start up a collection to get you a nice fancy TV where you could spend your days, instead of here, all would be good!
Dec. 2, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
I havent changed the thread in any way. I am 100 percent behind keeping the game the way it is now inre to equipment. The only tweaking our game needs is inre to classification. We have the right ball and we have the right bats. Changing anything about equipment would be wrong unless proof of increased danger is found.
Kevin and John of Anaconda are helping our associations tremendously with their suport. Without companies like Anaconda, Miken and Tanel supporting senior softball, the cost would rise substantially. If SS USA had no corporate sponsors or Community sponsors ( like Phoenix or Dalton GA) the cost to us as players would escalate substantially. Informed players should laud Anaconda and Miken and their ilk rather than demean them for their involvement and accuse them of being totally profit oriented. All companies need to make a profit, it is rare to find companies who are so willing to share the profitability with those who make it possible. The profitability thru sales of balls to SS USA doesnt come close to the dollars that they kick back to make our program better. It costs money to get real experts like Kevin Schulstrom, Mike Macenko and Corky Pellien to come to our events to make it better. How many players look forward to seeing Corky's truck at our events? He does not sell enough goods to show a profit by being there. Its in goodwill and promotion. We all profit from it. Dont malign the Golden Goose. Joe, if you follow the money trail, it isnt a rainbow. Anaconda wants to show off its products and hopes that potential customers will become acquainted with them and some day become actual customers. We profit from it many ways with their involvement.
Joe, You are an avid player, we all know that. You should be saying thank you to corporate sponsors, they make our game better.
Dec. 2, 2008
the wood
1071 posts
Jim16:
While I cannot speak for any senior majority, I can say that the players that I know really appreciate Anaconda. Kevin has been very free with his time/advice about balls and bats... as well as which particular bat may be appropriate for a given player. In addition, it's a real benefit to be able to buy softballs for $36/dozen and he has been very professional in the way that he treats us when we buy bats through him.
To me, Kevin = Anaconda but this is because I deal solely with him and occasionally with his assistant, Kayleigh. I consider him as a friend.
BW
Dec. 2, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
Bob, Terrific post. If I remember correctly, I intoduced you to Kevin in Carson City a few years ago. BTW, Kayleigh is Kevins daughter, Anaconda is family, many families.
Dec. 2, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
Kayleigh is my boss, I don't know what I would do without her. Some day she will she will take over operations of the company.
Dec. 2, 2008
stick8
1238 posts
I can't believe what I started here!!
Dec. 3, 2008
WOW
197 posts
Trumpball and Einstein. Why don't you guys spare us all your drama. Give each other your cell ph. #'s and get off this site............
Dec. 3, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
WOW,
I can understand your frustrations with this post, but the truth needs to be told. Joe has been spreading lie on this site and even admitted to doing so. I thought that after looking like a fool in his self admitted post about doing so he would stop. That is not the case he continues to post drivel about false information to rile the players of this board.

He has my number but doesn't call because that is what cowards do. He also saw me several times in Pheonix and had nothing to say, so he needs to look for the positive things about the game we all love to play quit bashing the ones that pay to make the game better. As you can see I offered to make him my partner if he believes we are making tons of money, I could use the extra money to help pay all of our exspenses. I doubt he could afford to write the check.
Dec. 3, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Every chance we get to calm things down
you seem unable to contain yourself.
Everyone's watching and making their own judgements.
You made it clear to me and others that you didn't want
me to approach you in Phoenix.
Ask Mike Kelly.

Coward? A word it seems you know something about.
Any time, anywhere, Kevin.
You know my number and email
and you don't use them.
Wow is right.
The board is no place for personal stuff.
Call me or email.
I've been done with it but you apparently aren't.

We know who Hi-Jacker is
at least I though everyone did.
Dec. 3, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
You are a real funny guy Joe. In this thread there are three posts by you before I entered into any dialoge with you about the powers that be and the manufactures changing the ball, all untrue. You want me and others to believe I started it. You are sad. Its there in balck and white try reading it for yourself.

PAY ATTENTION:
There is no movement on my behalf to change the ball for ss-usa...........
Believe what you want but the truth is exactly that.

Why is it that when you asked questions of me I answer them. You don't want to believe them, but I answer them. You have never answered ANY of the questions I asked you. Not a one of them....
Dec. 3, 2008
bigred3
38 posts
These pissing contests grow tiresome.
Dec. 3, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin.
Take it off line if you have the spirit or the stones.
You're boring everyone including me.
You're not impressing or scaring anybody.
The truth is the truth and folks will figure out
what's it all means to them.
Give us all a break.
Dec. 3, 2008
firebird380hp
Men's 50
81 posts
jeez guy s come on!!
Dec. 3, 2008
Dbax
Men's 60
1222 posts
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dec. 3, 2008
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Eloquence, Dave.
Sheer eloquence.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!
Dec. 3, 2008
THE HI-JACKER
118 posts
EINSTEIN: WOW!!! I had to go look that word up. Would eloquent have been the better word. High, rich, vocal, ardent, fluent, moving, graphic, telling, smooth-talking, silver-tongue, revealing, & my favorite: PREGNANT.

T Hi-J
Dec. 4, 2008
Peppergrinder
11 posts
I believe that any player who hits a HR w/the Ultra, is actually cheating, and the HR does not count, because that player, not only is he not really fully using his swing talent, but his using a bat this is illegal at all other leagues. I for one, swung it only twice, hit a HR, but went right back to my Demarini Juice, because it's more of a challenge for me to continue to hit an HR, with a bat other than the Ultra II. I agree w/Stick8, let's Ban it.
Dec. 4, 2008
Dbax
Men's 60
1222 posts
Let's just use wiffle ball bats. That would be a challenge. Argument doesn't make much sense.
Dec. 4, 2008
jim16
Men's 65
169 posts
DBAX, Great answer, you said it so simply
Dec. 5, 2008
db14
90 posts
Hey PEPPERGRINDER just a question. Do you tell your buddies with the new large head composite golf clubs that they are cheaters? What about the College kids who no longer uses wood but aluminum (ps with far less injuries per capita then walking off a curb) that they are all cheaters. What about the composite tennis racquets ...they must all be cheaters. Oh the hockey industry with their composite sticks....i know they are all cheaters. Just FYI 8-Tracks are no longer the latest technology. This is the 21st Century and as one quite astute individual once said "LEAD....FOLLOW... OR GET OUT OF THE WAY"
Dec. 6, 2008
Lefty
Men's 65
451 posts
I agree with you db14. If someone wants to bring a knife to a gun fight go right ahead. I play pretty many touneyments.
and their maybe if your lucky to see 2 none Ultra bats. If I were a slap hitter I wouldn't use an Ultra bat I'd use a ASA or a lower USSSA bat. But now sense I play the out field I notice that you don't have Ultra type bat. Guess what I'm stepping up for I know your a slap hitter. Now if you are 200lbs. an over I want come in so close. I don't find my ultra type hits that much farther than my broken in USSSA. That's just me talking it might not work like this for everyone. Have great softball Christmas.
Dec. 8, 2008
SALSAKID49
Men's 55
98 posts
I for one do not currently agree with your position and will use the Ultra II, 51, Sr. Combat, Etc .... And if you don't like the use of the UII... just don't play SSUSA... Just my $.02
Dec. 8, 2008
WOW
197 posts
Good news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Six straight posts without the 2 meatheads insulting each other.
Maybe Joe and trump are listening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dec. 8, 2008
tattooball
601 posts
WOW
No I have been away at the convention. Please come see me at a tourny and introduce yourself to me.
Dec. 12, 2008
WOW
197 posts
Would you like "Big Red" and the others to drop by also?
Take the hint and do your fighting with Joe off line.

Happy Holidays!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Dec. 12, 2008
DesertGuy
Men's 60
224 posts
Jeeeezzz WOW. This thread was SOOOOOOOO close to falling into oblivion on the second page, and you bump it back to the top! Ya gotta think things thru a bit better!
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