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Discussion: On My Honor 2

Posted Discussion
Aug. 6, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
On My Honor 2
Webbie 25 wanted this reposted: The original thread got 3368 hits; the next round, last week got 1209 hits; total of 4577 hits. Only 5-6 men attached their name or user name.

There are many guys on this board that I have read their posts in the past years about what should happen to the player who uses or is caught using shaved bats; I will not "Call You Out", but many of you also believe that the manager should be suspended if a player is caught; so if you believe in that so much; attach your username.

It is left up to you & I to clean up SSB. Much has been said about non-Senior Bats that guys will cheat, yet it has been said on this board that many of the Reebok returns were shaved; "A Cheater will cheat No Matter what". Are you going to cheat or are you going to play with a KNOWN cheater?

Here we go again; who will join up; we are a union of Senior Brothers who play for these associations, so who will step forward. Who will say from this day forward "I WILL NOT USE CHEATER BATS"!!! Stand for something or fall for anything!!!

On My Honor
On my honor: I promise that I have not used an altered bat(specially reloaded; rod removed or shortened, player's model, shaved, etc.) in 2006 (nor before; but will just leave it for this year) & I promise that in the years to follow that as a fellow senior softball player; I will not degrade these fine organizations nor insult my fellow team mates by using an altered/shaved bats.

Tater50 "My real name has been posted many times".
CR Needed
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror"

Aug. 6, 2011
surf88
Men's 60
874 posts
Tater: I will join this. Have been playing Sr. Ball since 99' Have played with a lot of good men and am thankful I'm still able to play and perform. The people who work to make it possible for us to play ball in their events are doing a good job and don't get a lot of thanks from us.

Ed Andrews

High desert Dukes, NM
Scrap Iron, CO
Utah Vets, Ut
OTD, AZ
Arizona Legends, AZ
Aug. 6, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Ok Iíll take the pledge. Never have and never will. I preach to the kids all the time not to use shaved Bats but doubt Iíve had much impact. My Son is a big power hitter and Iíve kept him away from them, players know who uses them and I tell him once youíve used them you will always be pegged as a cheater. Every time you hit a HR youíll hear ď shaveyĒ, and youíll never be respected as a true hitter. I didnít respond to this Thread previously because I didnít need to make a Pledge not to cheat and Cheaters will cheat regardless of making a Pledge or not. Just wanted you to not be discouraged be the lack of responses, most agree itís a real problem that needs to be addressed.
theBull
Aug. 6, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Thanks Ed & theBull:
theBull: "I didnít need to make a Pledge not to cheat".

I feel as you; but I feel that by presenting it on a board I might get others to help pave the way back to honesty.

I already have a team mate that has joined; there will be others.

Tater50
CR Needed
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror"
Aug. 7, 2011
surf88
Men's 60
874 posts
To be honest, I didn't know about shaving and rolling until I got involved with Reebok and learned that players were returning bats for replacements and the R&D discovered that some of the returned bats had been altered. I couldn't believe it but it was true.

After coming through a serious battle with cancer and coming through the far end of the tunnel into the light, I had to work hard get my strength back and to be impactive at bat. It was through commitment to getting back to the game and to my team with integrity. Last, but not least, it was with the blessed hand of God that brought me through it to be back with all you boys.
Surf 88
Aug. 7, 2011
gary c
411 posts
welcome back surf 88 stay strong
Aug. 7, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Surf88: way to come back.

I knew nothing of shaving until I started viewing softball boards.

What I find amazing is that anyone (especially Seniors) would shave bats; 2nd; what I find equally amazing is that someone would shave the bat; break it & then return it thinking that NO ONE would inspect it. Hilarious!!!

Wonder if Reebok sent them a message on alterin their bats?

Tater50
CR Needed
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror"
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Manufacturers and their puppets
believe that bat rolling is cheating
causes it serves them getting control
of a more than difficult market place.
Gives them an edge to say that
we all cheaters and the only way to stop us
is by introducing new and more restricted equipment.

Most players don't really give a rats ass
about bat rolling because
they get just as hot when you hit 'em
break 'em in by hitting 'em carefully.

It's part of the war between entrepreneurs
and equipment companies to court Associations
and beat each other in the market place
and has NOTHING to do with who we are
what we want and need to enjoy our game.
Nothing.

Aug. 8, 2011
perly
88 posts
Bat rolling is a very interesting topic. Is it illegal or not? I/ve seen guys hit bats with rubber mallets or against light poles to help break them in. Is that illegal? Often during games you'll see guys in the on deck circle hitting two bats together. Is that illegal? Without actually reading what defines an altered bat by the rule books I'm guessing rolling a bat is illegal per the various organization.

If hitting a rolled bat is illegal I can't take the pledge since I have swung a rolled bat. With that said, I've never swung one in a Senior Tournament and never will.

Also, and this is just my opinion, anybody that shaves a senior bat is crazy on many levels. First off these things are hot as fire when broken in so why shave them. Secondly, it seems very cost prohibitive to shave a bat that's going to break in 200-500 swings. Finally shaving a ball is absolutely cheating.

Many may come on here and say everybody that's swung a rolled bat is a cheater. Like einstein, I don't think rolling a bat really improves bat performance. That being said, if the rules say rolling a bat is illegal then rolling a bat is illegal.

Aug. 8, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Perly, below is a site that might help.

http://www.articlesbase.com/baseball-articles/is-bat-rolling-illegal-what-does-asa-usssa-and-nsa-say-1130123.html
Aug. 8, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Ed, I too recently completed 8 months of treatment for cancer and am extremely thankful for making it thru.
I would enjoy having a discussion with you about how you trained after treatment to regain your strength and muscle mass as well as your endurance. I am finding it much more difficult then I had expected.
As far as cheating is concerned, those with integrity, self respect, respect for the competion and honor have no need for it.
I will certainly make this pledge!

By the way Ed I just placed an order with you for a Melee.

John Miller
#25
OC Mustangs
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey John.
Way to go and keep up the good work.
Hope to see you soon.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
if rolling,hitting against a tree,mallet or any such device is ok,then why does it negate a mfg'ers warranty to any bat that this has been done to.also please show me one assoc that allows any of this to be done to bats,and not declare them unfit for play........
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
perly,anything in your first paragraph that is done is considered alteration of a bat so there fore making it illegal for play......
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
manufacturer's warranty?
MANUFACTURERS.
There it is black and white.
What and where all the smoke is coming from.

Has to do with their liability, money
and lobbying to get control of the market.
It's America and money talks.
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Manufacturer's like corporations
are in the business of making money for themselves.
It's America and not against the law but
that doesn't mean they're interested in us,
know us or are fundamentally concerned about us,
does it.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
answer the question instead of doing your usual sidewinder 2-step.where does any mfg'er allow it to done to be their bat and keep a warranty in place,and what assoc's allow altered bats(which rolling is included to be altering) to be used.

please answer the questions put forth,and use facts........

and quit this chicken little syndrome of yours,the sky is not falling.........
Aug. 8, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
The difference between rolling & breaking in a bat the with usage, is the sweet spot is bigger and more consistant. Players were seen hitting bats on a pole at Liberty Park & were told the bats could not be used during play. That according to the rules they are now considered altered. If you remember, they used to not allow the add on tapered cone on the grip near the bat knob. Those used to be considered altered, as well as more than two layers of tape on the grip. These are association rules, not manufactures. They could care less what you do to your bat in order for you to buy new ones. All it does is void warranty. Anyone who shaves a bat isn't looking for warranty anyway.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
pricer you are so right,mfg'ers really don't care per say,it just gives them a reason to deny your return of a bat to them.and yes rolling does increase the length of the sweet spot of a bat so hence you are getting more of an advantage with rolling.

as for the shavers,yes believe it or not,they do try and send them back in for warranty replacement.the mfg'ers now have black lists for these idiots who have tried.

oh pity the poor guy who thought he got a clean bat from someone and it turns out dirty and sent it in for warranty,he is now no longer able to return any bats.
Aug. 8, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joe the staff gave a number who should we
believe? I know you have never said these three words I WAS WRONG!
People would take you a lot more seriously if you did.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
i think its like when the wife/husband gets caught cheating,they say."hey you gonna believe me,or your lying eyes"........
Aug. 8, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You 3 guys(gal) are obvious and hysterical.
You're all working the same tired old line
sucking up to and lobbying for manufacturers
over us the players.
It's cool if you have a bias
but you should proud enough identify yourself and
not try to demonize or criminalize us
who enjoy and want to continue to enjoy
playing our game with lively bats and balls.
Aug. 8, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
tater50 sorry to have jacked this thread,and it being really mucked up but an admitted cheater.

please guys lets get this back to what tater50 started it about,are ya gonna cheat or not,if not gonna cheat,please post it here.
i did in his previous thread and will do so again,and will go to saying i am trying to get the kids to do so in the leagues i play in.the 2 teams i play for at this moment are clean....
Aug. 8, 2011
surf88
Men's 60
874 posts
John, Get hold of me at ed@ewandrews.com and I'll share what I did to get back and what I'm doing each day/week to stay where I'm at. Also 970-729-3145.
Aug. 8, 2011
Brusco
10 posts
Let's see if we can get this thread back on track.
I am in. Never have and never will.

Brusco
AZ Rangers
Aug. 9, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
I also never knew until I found this message board what shaving and rolling were. That was just last year. I will put it here-I will never knowingly use an altered bat in competition. Period. I actually am amazed that with these trampolines, that people need to enhance them further.
Let's keep this one going for pledges only and I will start a new thread for those that want to debate the altering issue and attack each other viciously (again).
Mark Weber
Desperados
Aug. 9, 2011
surf88
Men's 60
874 posts
John,E4/E6: Did not get the information you sent me so please resend it to me and I'll get on it. Ed
Aug. 9, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Webbie25: thanks for starting the new thread. Thanks for the responses. Can we keep this thread restricted to the shaving type alterations?

If people spent as much time practicing as they do trying to "cheat" they may not need to shave a bat.

Tater 50
CR Needed
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror" (when you win a trophy or All Tourney w/a shaved bat & you look in the mirror, how does the "real" man feel?)

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Aug. 9, 2011
gary c
411 posts
I notice some guys from Joey Joe's area who pop off about rolling bats isn't cheating have not taken the pledge.I guess PODUNK tournaments let you use anything
Aug. 9, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Come on Gary; help me out here. I do not like to argue; just trying to get guys to be responsible; & I think if guys that shave bats see other SSB players making a pledge, they may think twice about cheating. We all can turn this thing around!!

Help me out w/the cause by augmenting & accentuating the main portion of the thread (anti-shaving). Thanks

Tater50
CR Needed
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror" (when you win a trophy or All Tourney w/a shaved bat & you look in the mirror, how does the "real" man feel?)

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Aug. 9, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Tater
You bet
Aug. 9, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Great quote from Lincoln.
One of my favorites.
Aug. 10, 2011
gary c
411 posts
How can he be your favorite he would know rolling a bat is cheating
Aug. 11, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
34 posts and 8 promises. Is that all? Or, is this just something that should be assumed and left alone? Just curious.
Aug. 11, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
On my honor: I promise that I have not used an altered bat(specially reloaded; rod removed or shortened, player's model, shaved, etc.) in 2006 (nor before; but will just leave it for this year) & I promise that in the years to follow that as a fellow senior softball player; I will not degrade these fine organizations nor insult my fellow team mates by using an altered/shaved bats.

Jeff Price
K Sheeran Essentials
50-AAA Michigan
Aug. 11, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Webbie25: "Or, is this just something that should be assumed and left alone?"

Surprises the heck out of me.

Wonder if I started a thread "On My Honor"; I will not falsify my age & address if more would join.

Why can't guys put their "USERNAME" on this list; we don't care if you don't put your real name?

I could go back to the thread in reference to cheaters being suspended for 5 years w/their coach being suspended (1 year I think) & I could pull out a lot of well-known names that'd want to nail the offender; why not stand up now?

If you cheated before; why in the heck would you need to cheat w/SSBats.

Tater50
CR Needed
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror" (when you win a trophy or All Tourney w/a shaved bat & you look in the mirror, how does the "real" man feel?)

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Aug. 11, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Never used an altered bat and on my honor never will.
Gary C
Aug. 11, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
I just wondered if anyone cared, really. But, I still do care.I hope there is some integrity left in America. I don't care if people use a username or their real name. It is the thought that counts.
I strongly second the thought-why would you need to cheat with these senior bats??
Aug. 12, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Webbie; GaryC; thanks for the support. If enough SS Players openly sign, then others will follow suit.

When I had my JAH Masters team in 03/04; I had in big bold letters that "We Do Not Use Altered Bats" on every sheet that all the team signed @ each tourney. I was making each player aware that they were signing a document stating that they did not cheat.

I may ask our present coach to add that to our sign in sheets.

Tater50
Tater50
CR Needed
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror" (when you win a trophy or All Tourney w/a shaved bat & you look in the mirror, how does the "real" man feel?)

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Aug. 12, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
tater that is a great idea.wish more people had the moral fiber to join this cause,like webbie says.......instead talking out the side of their mouths.
Aug. 12, 2011
TOKE9
7 posts
Am excited to be part of ssb , played my first tournament last month and loved it. I am still competing with the kids and the presence of illegal bats is worse than ever. The teams that do cheat have a big advantage over those that dont.Not really sure what can be done about it but I love this thread, if for no other reason it calls out ones that do cheat.
I will admit that I did swing a shaved bat at a tournament a couple years ago and felt guilty about it enough to never do it again.
I promise to never cheat again, On MY Honor,


Dave Tokanel
50 AAA Mass.
Aug. 12, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
toke9,ask the brats if it makes them feel like a man to swing a dirty bat.keep on them,i do it as much as possible in my area.i pitch a lot and if i know an idiot comes to the plate with a dirty bat,they don't even get to swing,oh they'll see 4 pitches(well now 3 as we do the 1-1 count)that will not be even close to being hitable.they will ask why and i proceed to tell them(so everyone can hear),ya come to the plate dirty ya don't get to swing.
Aug. 12, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Brats, Robert?
I think the young guys are getting the short end
of the straw.
I saw this phenomenon over and over again
when I was teaching.
They know the least about what's really going on
in and around them and they get blamed
for the lack of structure and organization
to meet their needs and important wants
and then get blamed for acting out in their own behalf.
The young kids are no more bent on cheating
than we are, Robert, loud and clear.
They need lively bats and balls just like we do
to enjoy their game, too.
They don't want to get punked by other teams using
hot bats when the go/invest in a tournament
and they don't want to go to a tournament
and have the TD put is a sock
that no one enjoys hitting and playing with.

They, as a group are responding to the lack of recognition and definition they experience
regarding bats/ball conduct
and shouldn't be demonized or criminalized by anyone or exploited by anyone
to slip in some market driven
"panacea" that will punish them all.

If we bust them for using loaded/shaved bats
as is culturally effective in American society
than they would stop and get in line
just like us or anyone else would.

I'm tired of hearing the youngest most inexperienced and least enfranchised individuals
taking the heat of the lack of leadership
and direction that we all have allowed
to happen in our midst and on our watch.

It's characterless and wrong to blame them
for doing their best in a messed up system
they have little to do with or understand
and is not functioning "with/for them"
and their best interests.
Aug. 12, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
and where is your honor to pledge,nothing but BS.if you don't put your foot down,it will continue,but hey you don't care as you already are a confessed cheater.......
Aug. 12, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks, Robert.
Aug. 12, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
figures you can't do it,you would rather see the kids cheat also,but i guess when you do it yourself,it would figure you would condone it for the young guys.




sorry tater this will be my last reply to this cheater.


people we need to rid the game of these type people.
Aug. 12, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What will continue, Robert?
Just what is it that is going on, how and why
so that we can understand how best
to deal with and correct it while
underlining everyone's dignity and identity
in the process.
Aug. 12, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
Einstein, did I really read that right? They need lively balls and bats like we do so despite rules to the contrary, it is ok for them to cheat??? They don't understand it???? They don't mean to cheat????? Blame the system for teaching them to cheat???? They are playing with something much nearer the bat/ball combo we played with in the past. A combo where the home run is special and the guys that can hit'em get'em.
Maybe we should just give them the liveliest combo out there and, instead of making them play defense, we will just set it up like a javelin field and measure how far they hit each one. The team that hits the ball the farthest in the course of 7 innings wins. Each man hits one ball each inning so everybody gets to tee off 7 times and the game goes faster because you don't need to reset the game after every pitch.
That's like saying Congress 'didn't mean' to spend us into a 17 Trillion dollar debt.
Einstein-instead of condoning it, why aren't you out there BEING that leader that you say we lack. YOU set the example, instead of enabling. You were a teach -TEACH!!!!!! If you and I don't, who will!!
Aug. 12, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
webbie well said,if your not part of the solution,your part of the problem,what is the AA groups say,don't be an enabler......
Aug. 15, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You underestimate the fun/value/joy of hitting a ball hard, fast and well, WEB.

The kids have been set up by our lack of leadership to date, in demonizing them
for not policing themselves when they have more testosterone and much less experience then we do.
Yes.
The organization/society is tacitly supporting
their hot bat usage and it's not hard to see
how and why.
They need, like the steroid era needed
and that is a 'moratorium' on hot bat usage
and then vigorous prosecution
for any 'dirty' offenders.
Mark.
You are passionate and sound like a caring,
compassionate and intelligent man.

We may not agree on how to do stuff
but the decision to learn and do what's truly
needed is a HUGE step in the right direction.
Aug. 16, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
I do NOT underestimate the fun of hitting the ball hard. You don't know me or have ever seen me hit. But I also don't mind earning it, either. I would be just fine with a measured step back to alloy bats and a 47/525 ball. Smaller sweet spot, but still a very lively game, but tougher to doctor bats.
Lack of leadership includes the steroid users from the pro sports who, whether they want to or not, are the role models for our youth. I'm not sure what I show I was watching last night, but they were arresting the coaches for providing steroids for their football teams and I am sure it happens. The kid they caught was saying 'What am I supposed to do? I have to to do steroids to play.' We have to fix that thinking. Teachers have to play a big part in that instead of ringing their hands wondering what to do.
Lack of leadership also means parenting. Teaching your kids to do the right thing, even if it costs them in some way. Too many parents don't have time, or don't take time to teach that. So where do they learn? Refer to sports 'icons'.
Now you call for a 'moratorium on hot bat usage'. I assume you mean illegal bats, as I know you would never back off lively bat/balls forever. Rolling a bat has been specifically defined to you as 'altering a bat'. You still choose to stand behind the fact that you have done it. Situational Ethics??? Since it is too late to change the morals of the present generation that believes they 'have to' cheat because everybody else does, then why don't you get behind the move to take a measured step back to the combo I referred to above. It might even help our pocketbooks, too, by not having to replace so many broken bats. With your immense propensity to orate about the same subject no matter what subject is being discussed, you might be able to engineer the movement to make that change and clean up the game.
Aug. 16, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Give up Webbie this guy is an admitted cheater. The word HONOR is not in his vocabulary
Aug. 16, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Mark.
Brilliant, soulful,impassioned and important.
The challenge for true men in any society is not
doing what anyone truly thinks and feels is right
but doing what he/she truly thinks and feels is right
and you have gone to the head of the class.
It doesn't matter if we disagree.
It matters that we seek the truth openly,
without pretense or defense.

To me, the elders, the enfranchised,
most experienced and aware,
are responsible for the direction of any society
and should take the hit for not guiding/training the youth
effectively.
For me, it's gutless to have taken what we wanted
out of the system at the expense of what is best
for the young and innocent.
We have sadly good examples of truly gutless behavior
all around us, even as we speak
on and through this website.

When we leave innocent and young to "fend for themselves"
in an every man for himself society
we have set them up to take the fall for our 'good times'
and life style.
Then we want to stand back and watch them get hacked
and hewn for their tacit support of us and
and often slick and deceptive abdication of real responsibility for what is truly going on/down.

So, I agree with you.
It's time to stand up for what is best, right and true
for us and to us for our sake and those of coming behind us.
Our game needs lively bats and balls to succeed.
Of this there is no doubt and the young aren't worse
people for listening to, looking up to,
waiting for and supporting/allowing us
all their lives.
We both agree, they DO deserve better and our best,
all the time and aren't getting it now.



Aug. 16, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Why are you on a thread that is about honor go to one about cheaters.
Aug. 16, 2011
Fastsam
Men's 60
55 posts
Never have never will.
Sam Scott
ODB 55
Aug. 16, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Last time I looked the Babies we are suppose to be protecting are now men. Men know right from wrong and should be held accountable at any age after manhood is reached.
I am not responcible for anything another man does or doesnt do. Therefore when one of the kids uses a dirty bat he is the only one that should be held responcible.We arent their parents.
All we can do as their elders is guide them toward the true spirit of sportsmanship. Leading by example works well.
Aug. 16, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Grown men should better. If they don't they should be banned from all Senior Softball
Aug. 16, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
John, you thorn in my side.
Just when I was gettin' my roll back.
Dude!

Always great to hear from you, John.
Let's see.
Where were we?
Oh yes, manhood as a matter of perspective.

We all are children.
Children of God, right,
meaning aren't we all children
when God is around and when God
is manifest through others as in
the right set of elders, teachers,
saints and mentors?

Having been a teacher I would say that
manhood in this society is achieved,
culturally speaking, at a higher and higher age
if at all, with each generation
since I've been around.

And at what age are justice
and true understanding of a person
not as important as when we were small?

All to say we disagree John, again,
on something important about life
in and around softball.

I believe the young people
(younger than us)
look up to us and we have a responsibility
to/for them always and forever.
That's true leadership and responsibility
that never ends and always wants to understand.

Aug. 16, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Admit it, you missed me..........

We really arent our brothers keeper Joe, we have to allow the youth to make mistakes and face the consequences of those mistakes.
Manhood does come to each of us at different times, but I feel when we reach our 20s and 30s we should be standing on our own and not need to be told right from wrong. Am I wrong?
Aug. 16, 2011
gary c
411 posts
This cheater was a teacher.
California schools in the crapper.
Thanks for your great work Joe.
Aug. 16, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We all do and did.

Do unto others, John...
Love thy neighbor as thyself.

And when that priest in Les Miserables
tells the police regarding the poor wretch of an ex convict man, Jean Valjean,
caught and standing in the doorway in handcuffs of stealing silver and gold
from the priest's very own house,
"Jean, didn't you tell them
I GAVE them to you".
Still brings tears to my eyes
and yours too, I'd bet.

If we can't tell the truth to keep
innocent younger people from "doing a stretch"
about hot bats because we didn't do
all we could to develop and enforce a code
that would teach them not to
then, I say it's on us
and not them.





Aug. 16, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Thanks again, Gary.
Aug. 16, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
We make a moratorium.
Develop a plan to bust cheaters
so everyone knows
And go from there.
Just like baseball wanted to do
with the steroid era.
Aug. 16, 2011
garyheifner
361 posts
I don't think a manager should go down. How is he supposed to control or even know if a player is using an illegal bat. Why would any player use one when we can use the best bat out there right out of the wrapper, the penalty should be:

"LIFE TIME BAN" FROM SSWC

No deals, second chances--hope you enjoy golf or do you cheat at that too.

As I posted before, I find it interesting when there are 15 Mikens in the opponents bat rack before the game and all the players use the same one???????????
Aug. 16, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
garyh,the manager needs to know his players.i would say he needs to maybe do a check of his players bats,or something.now i don't believe in a lifetime ban for the coach ,if it can truly be proven he didn't know,maybe a probation then.now the player is different,anyone caught with an altered bat should go down hard,i say min of 5 years,up to lifetime ban.
Aug. 17, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
Mad Dog:"garyh,the manager needs to know his players.i would say he needs to maybe do a check of his players bats".

A coach has enough on his plate; he does not know who swings what!!! I've coached & I did not know every man's bat.

I play on the closest knit team that I have ever played on & NO ONE would be suspect for using a cheater bat; but our coach does not know everything that goes on. Does he know if my Driver's License is valid; if I live where I claim; whether my bat is legal or not; come on guys!!

About the only way you have any clue is if guys start talking to you about doctoring a bat.

The coach is giving up his time & a lot of the time he does not even play; these are the real true heroes our SSB.

BTW: why after 4000+ hits have only a handful of guys taken the pledge? I will never cheat!!! I don't give a hoot what the young or old guys are doing I will be an honest man.
Anybody that has played w/me, you have to admit that I talk all the time trying to keep the team up & ALSO, YOU HAVE "NEVER" HEARD ME TALKING ABOUT GETTING MY BAT SHAVED/ALTERED!!!

Those of you that have taken the pledge: why aren't others signing up? What's your opinion?

A. They cheat & don't want to quit.
B. They do not want to stand up to their team mates that cheat; would rather be "friends" than tell them; you are wrong!!

Also: If we spent as much time talking to the cheaters (emails or one on one) to convince them to change as some do bashing each other, we could probably turn the tide.

Again: A CHEATER IS A CHEATER IS A CHEATER & anyone thinking that SSB Bats will change a CHEATER is living under a ROCK!!

Tater50
CR Needed(working hard on this part!!!)
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror" (when you win a trophy or All Tourney w/a shaved bat & you look in the mirror, how does the "real" man feel?)

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln




Aug. 17, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The main thing is that we get something in place
with real punch in it and that we can all get behind.
5 years would be enough.
Manager 2 years.
Tate.
Would hitting something, let's say a tire,
hundreds of times to break in a bat be considered cheating?
I put a softball in my bed and then pound it
into the mattress to open some of my bats up.
Would either of those be considered cheating
in your eyes?


Aug. 17, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
tater50 understand about the coach,but i think they would know if someone is using an altered bat,just saying in most cases.thats why i said if PROVEN they had known,they also get a punishment,thats all.


ask the mfg'er what an altered bat is to them,not in another player's eye's,quit trying to justify being able to alter a bat.
Aug. 17, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Who cares what manufacturers say about us
and how they want us to play and perform???
They are definitively interested in their own profits
and investments, first and foremost
and as such have a conflict of interest at best
and nothing necessarily soulful or essential to say
about us and our game.
Nothing.
"It's not a crime to be a manufacturer with respect
to softball but
it's no great honor either". (Fiddler on the Roof).
Why and how all the devotion to manufacturing
and manufacturers, Robert?
You making bats and balls?
Aug. 17, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
show me one mfg'er that allows it,just one and that will allow a return for any bat that has been beaten,rolled,shaved,what i thought,you can't.you would by pass the rules for your own benefit,and laziness.get a clue...man up and quit trying to sidestep.....
Aug. 17, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1267 posts
REPOST FROM 8/9/2011 - Bat rolling is not specifically mentioned in the SSUSA Rulebook. Neither is bat 'shaving' or any of the other techniques employed to alter a bat's technical specifications. However, any procedure that changes the performance characteristics of the bat, with a goal of enhancing performance beyond "out of the wrapper status", is considered altering a bat. Normal wear and tear through usage as intended by the manufacturer, also known as "breaking in" a bat through hitting a softball, is acceptable and does not constitute altering a bat in contravention of the rules. Bat manufacturers do not honor warranties on bats they identify as having been 'rolled', and consider them as altered bats. Accordingly, we consider rolled bats to be altered bats as covered by SSUSA Official Rulebook ß3.4(5) - ALTERED EQUIPMENT.
__________

NOTE ē See: SSUSA Official Rulebook ß3.4(7) - PENALTY FOR USING AN ALTERED BAT - This provision was enacted following the 2007 Senior Softball Summit meetings. The penalties are specific and clearly stated.

Aug. 17, 2011
gary c
411 posts
JOE
JUST SAY YOUR WRONG TAKE THE PLEDGE AND TELL YOUR PALS TO DO THE SAME
Aug. 17, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Bat rolling is not considered cheating by the great majority of players
I have spoken with and talk to.
Legally, spitting on the sidewalk is illegal too
but who cares and no one should or would enforce it.

The essential problem is finding the center soul of softball/senior softball
and moving with it and not against it.
We don't need any more self interest or wrong headed decisions regarding us
especially now when money to invest is so tight for all of us.

Our game should and will never be run by outsiders or those in conflict
with their own interests
We need leaders, arguments, decisions, in and through our sport, that are dedicated to who in fact WE are
and what is right and best for US.

We deserve it an we're gonna get it sooner or later,
regardless of what we have to go through to get there
or our national sport will die on the vine
from lack of soulful attention, cultivation and care.
Mark my words.

Aug. 17, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Why would it be necessary for anyone
to pledge to do the right thing.
Are we mindless and without character
and bent on evil?

Not me or anyone in the universe
created and operated by God,
that's for sure.
I was taught we were all made in his image
and likeness
and that we are all the offspring of God.
Are you saying God needs to make a pledge
of his devotion to us his offspring
and that we need
to pledge to be/act like him, our parent?

There's a strong sense of wrong doing
when someone talks about getting everyone
to promise to be good.
Sometimes, you can smell it, too.

Aug. 17, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Seriously Joe, we all have rules to folow here. I hope your not indicating that the SSUSA post above does not pertain to you or your friends?

Bat rolling is not specifically mentioned in the SSUSA Rulebook. Neither is bat 'shaving' or any of the other techniques employed to alter a bat's technical specifications. However, any procedure that changes the performance characteristics of the bat, with a goal of enhancing performance beyond "out of the wrapper status", is considered altering a bat. Normal wear and tear through usage as intended by the manufacturer, also known as "breaking in" a bat through hitting a softball, is acceptable and does not constitute altering a bat in contravention of the rules. Bat manufacturers do not honor warranties on bats they identify as having been 'rolled', and consider them as altered bats. Accordingly, we consider rolled bats to be altered bats as covered by SSUSA Official Rulebook ß3.4(5) - ALTERED EQUIPMENT.
__________

NOTE ē See: SSUSA Official Rulebook ß3.4(7) - PENALTY FOR USING AN ALTERED BAT - This provision was enacted following the 2007 Senior Softball Summit meetings. The penalties are specific and clearly stated.

Aug. 17, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
anyone who would also spit on the sidewalk is a pig,what kind of gross person does that.


ok now lets see,mfg'er says no rolling,shaving or doming anything to a bat but bp.assoc say the same thing,as it will be considered an altered bat,joey boy says its ok ....mmmmmm who should i believe,the authorities or the snake oil salesman........
Aug. 17, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1267 posts
CLARIFICATION - There have been a lot of techniques mentioned for 'breaking in' a bat other than by the manufacturers' SOLE intended usage of their product: BY HITTING SOFTBALLS. While some of the techniques appear to be of dubious value and serve primarily to shorten the useful life of the bat, there are at least four which are clearly conclusive to SSUSA as "altering" a bat.

This is not an exhaustive list of bat altering techniques, but any player found to have performed any of the following on a bat (s)he is using in an SSUSA sanctioned event will be presumed to be using an altered bat:

ē Shaving a bat is a process using mechanical means to change the bat's technical performance characteristics;
ē Rolling a bat is a process using mechanical means to change the bat's technical performance characteristics;
ē Removing a rod is a process using mechanical means (prying off the end cap to remove the rod) to change the bat's technical characteristics; and
ē Weight loading is a process using mechanical means (prying off the end cap to weight load) to change the bat's technical characteristics.

ALL of the above procedures void the warranty (if any) on a bat. ALL of them, and any other mechanical means applied to a bat for purposes of enhancing its technical performance characteristics, are procedures deemed to be ALTERING A BAT.

SSUSA Official Rulebook ß3.4(5) - ALTERED EQUIPMENT and ß3.4(7) - PENALTY FOR USING AN ALTERED BAT apply in all cases.

If the above statement of position on this issue remains unclear to anyone, please contact the SSUSA Offices.

Aug. 17, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
thanks staff for clarifying this situation.yes the mfg'er does allow a couple of things,but they all are approved batting techniques that are approved for use by them.
Aug. 17, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I got that rolling a bat is technically speaking illegal but I don't care that it is.
For me, it's the same as breaking it in
painstakingly and well, which many guys do.
It's not an issue like using a shaved
and "more" endloaded bat is to me
and the great majority of players
I have talked with about it.



Aug. 17, 2011
SSUSA Staff
1267 posts
einstein ... Your personal opinion on this matter is completely irrelevant in the context of the SSUSA Rulebook. And while you may believe "...It's not an issue like using a shaved and "more" endloaded bat is to me...", if discovered using one, you will be subjected to the exact same Rulebook penalty provisions without regard to 'what flavor' your ALTERED BAT might be ...

Here are the essential risks you undertake when using an altered bat, including a rolled one:

"...If the player refuses to immediately release the bat to tournament officials, the player will be suspended for ten years, the manager for one year, and the team will forfeit all games played in the current tournament. If the player voluntarily releases the bat and it is found to be altered to enhance performance, the player will be suspended for five years and the manager for one year..."

Apparently the above CLARIFICATION lacked ENOUGH clarity for you. Hopefully, this post removes any residual ambiguity.

Aug. 18, 2011
#19
Men's 60
252 posts
Case closed!
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
In theory, situation ethics does have an absolute norm or standard(s); this approach calls for the selection or acknowledgment of an absolute, but a non-legalistic, flexible application of the standard to each individual situation. The goal is to apply the absolute as best as possible in the particular situation rather than to utilize a law that fit difference circumstances. This norm could be love, personal power, or any other principle around which one could build an interpretation of morality. Guidelines that assist in the application of the selected norm may or may not be included in a given interpretation. For example, a certain dictator views personal power as his moral absolute; if he takes a situational approach, he reflects on every situation in which he finds himself and involves himself such as to acquire personal power. He may or may not have useful guides in mind as he enters new situations.
The situationist enters into every decision-making situation fully armed with the ethical maxims of his community and its heritage, and he treats them with respect as illuminators of his problems. Just the same he is prepared in any situation to compromise them or set them aside in the situation if love seems better served by doing so.*

I was trying to find a way to explain your complete lack of respect for the rule as written and interpreted many times for you in this thread alone. This is a direct quote from 'Situation Ethics' by Joseph Fletcher.

I find it puzzling that you would fight so hard to keep from taking the pledge. Technically, it is not binding in a legal way, but it is a good thing to do in a game that is becoming increasingly 'dirty' from all accounts.

Then you talk about God and his pledges-he already has made pledges to us. You can find His pledges to us all throughout the Bible.

Then you try to turn it back on those that started and supported this thread, implying there is something sinister about taking this pledge. Are you accusing all of us that took the pledge of being dirty or having a motive for the pledge? Sounds like it.

Joe, that is one of the most incredible posts I have ever seen on here. Are you sure you want to stand by it?
Aug. 18, 2011
birdie
Men's 60
683 posts
Joe, I know that you have a strong set of principles but I would be careful on this one. It seems that a rolled bat is classified as an altered bat. I would watch your back on this one just in case somebody is out to get you. Just a thought.

I saw a salesman take a bat an hit a tree with it a couple of times. I would think that action qualifies the bat as being altered as well. Strange how the rules are interrupted
I did not think much of it at the time but now I wonder about it.seemed ok to me at the time. Thanks Harry
Aug. 18, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
I agree with the stiff penalties against the Player for using an Altered Bat but I donít agree with penalizing
the Coach unless it can be proved he had prior knowledge. It has been discussed on this Site that there is virtually no way to know if a Bat has been Rolled ( from the exterior) and is probably equally as difficult to know if itís been weighted. I have seen a Senior use a Shaved Bat in a Home Run Derby and would not have known it except I overheard him talking about it with a teammate. Did he use it in a Game, donít know, he had two identical Bats, on shaved and one Not. Why are Coaches expected to possess an ability to detect Altered Bats when no one else can? Penalizing someone who did not break the Rules and had no knowledge of the infraction makes no sense and is not a deterrent.
theBull
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Absolutely, Mark.
The only laws that are immutable for a conscientious
and moral person are those that come from the sacred relationship between him/her and God.
Notice that precludes you, or SSUSA or any corporation
from entering any such relationship,
I'm sorry to say.
And last I checked God wasn't working for Worth or Combat
or DeMarini or SSUSA, but I could be wrong.

What I said and stand behind is
I "don't care" about rolled bats being deemed illegal
by any "body" on earth.
And that most of the players I have talked with
"don't care" either because it seems more of a manufacturing and Association protecting measure than a measure
of fairness on the field as relates to real players
like me.

Is "not caring" a crime in and of itself about anything
man made or the product and by product
of entities lobbying and
cutting throats in the market place
for market share and influence???

Is it a crime to appeal to higher sense of morality
than what we find in a MARKET driven economically based
society or subset of that society?
Is it?
You know better than that.

I find Mark, the most egregious violation of the sacred
responsibility between God and men like me
is when others, as you seem to be doing
decide for us (me and God)
just what it is I should be thinking, feeling and doing
about anything on earth at any time
especially from corporations and Associations
who spend their best energies on competing
in a market place for their identity and survival
through OUR support.

Mark.
I love to talk about life, morality, reality,
religion anytime and to spare those on the website
from having to listen or partake
email me at joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
and let's 'get it on'.

Lively bats and balls are a MUST
in order to enjoy our game.
There's just no doubt about it.


Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Birdie.
Thanks for the warning.
You're a gem.
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
I rest my case.
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Best quote is from Krishna Murti
"It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
and
last night when watching the ending segment of Braveheart,
William Wallace was asked
what he had to say about being treasenous to his king
by the Judge of the highest court in society
and he replied
that he couldn't remember ever swearing allegiance
to him.
You go, William Wallace.
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
I am so stupid-I did not realize I was debating Joe who speaks on behalf of the almighty on the issue of rolled bats. I capitulate and ask anyone who knows how to do this blessed 'rolling of the bats' to contact me and I will send mine forthwith to be anointed. I hereby render my abject apologies along with 5 'Hail Joes' in hope of absolution from my heinous crimes.
Aug. 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
joe please use your cheater bat then we can get rid of your sorry ass.Your not MAN enough to admit you are WRONG.
You can hit a ball a mile and your still a LOW LIFE LOSER.
I know some don't like me and I accept that but no one can call me a cheater. SSUSA STAFF KEEP AN EYE ON THIS LOW LIFE CHEATER.
Aug. 18, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
bull,it goes back to being creditable.as a coach you need to make sure your players know what is happening with your team and tell them its a no go situation for them to use an altered bat.i have seen some coaches make players sign an honor claim(yeah i know not worth much to a cheater)to attempt to clean his team up,or make sure it stays clean.for the end-loaded bats,they can be found out fairly easy,as most bats are balanced near the same point,1 spot for end loaded bats and 1 for balanced bats.someone did a check for that on here a while back,looking for balance points.rolling can be found out also,just got to know what to look for.
Aug. 18, 2011
Capt Kirk
408 posts
Who will enforce rolled bat detection, if SS players don't abide by the honor code? It might be like trying to pick fly shit out of pepper.
Aug. 18, 2011
GSWP001
Men's 60
74 posts
In all the tournaments I've been to I can only remember bats being checked once. On the second day the had them back on the field and the umps never cared. Do you really think that the power that be want to get into this. It is too large for them to handle. Not enough enforcement to be had. It seems our only recourse is personal involvement. Therefore this honor oath is very important. I feel sorry for the ones who cannot self impose it.

Dave Pursley
NW Silver.
Aug. 18, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
capt,gsw- i agree we as senior players need to step up and lead the way,i do it in the kids leagues i play in and will call out anyone i know who is swinging a dirty bat there.they may not like it,but to bad,play the game clean and you don't get called out,just saying.if you know/think a team mate who does,pull him to the side and tell him,that he is giving the team a bad rep and such,or tell him he can't play with you if he doesn't want to play clean.


just saying it starts with us the players
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
What case would that be, Mark.
A suit case?
Email me as you're truly concerned about my stance and it's underpinnings.
I'll gladly share my thoughts
and concerns with you.
If not, you tend to have little
to say that would concern me
or command my attention.

Situational ethics would only apply
when the question or challenge itself
was moral and not seeped in competition
and self interest like as in the selling, use
and promotion of bats and balls for profit.
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Robert.
I would say in all respect to you
a quote from Jesus himself,
"Let he among you who is without sin
be the first to cast a stone."
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The kids are just being kids
and following the older ones, us
and their elders who tend to run
and control everything they're involved with.

It's a TERRIBLE, terrible abdication of moral
responsibility that would let the kids suffer
for our very own lack of leadership
and organization that has promoted and allowed them "make sure" they have a good time
and are not cheated themselves
when the go to a tournament.
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And Mark, thanks.
It's great to be recognized, anymore.
Times are tough,
so much competition, ignorance and greed.
People seem to forget where everything comes
from and who keeps them in existence.

And you are forgiven, my son.
Aug. 18, 2011
Tater50
336 posts
thebull:"I agree with the stiff penalties against the Player for using an Altered Bat but I donít agree with penalizing
the Coach unless it can be proved he had prior knowledge."

Here is my recommendation to coaches. I have coached before & put in big Letters across the roster sign in sheet that WE DO NOT USE ALTERED BATS!!!

If a coach does this & informs ALL players as they sign about this notation; I am no lawyer, but I do not think a coach could be suspended under these circumstances!! The player is acknowledging by his signature on the document w/multiple witnesses that he does not use ALTERED BATS!!!

Einstein: you are highly intelligent, your verbiage indicates this; but if I were in your shoes & had rolled a bat & openly displayed that on a National Board & SSUSA had openly told me I was wrong; I'd apologize & state that a new day has begun. Like the other poster stated: Someone will be gunning for you. Something to think about!!

Tater50
Tater50
CR Needed(working hard on this part!!!)
You cannot deceive the "Man in the Mirror" (when you win a trophy or All Tourney w/a shaved bat & you look in the mirror, how does the "real" man feel?)

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln

PS> Would like to thank SSUSA for stepping in & giving us some input on this matter!!
Aug. 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joey The Cheater
God want's us to play by the rules.
YOU DON'T!
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
Joe-you wrote:
Situational ethics would only apply
when the question or challenge itself
was moral and not seeped in competition
and self interest like as in the selling, use
and promotion of bats and balls for profit.

Really?????

The, by the criteria YOU state, Joe, would Situational Ethics apply when the consumer (that would be you)is NOT acting moral and is seeped in the self interest of perpetuating the hypocrisy of being a good hitter when the reality is that he's using a juiced bat to give that illusion?

Tater50-thanks for starting this thread-it has really been a study in honesty and integrity and a sometimes startling and disturbing insight into what some people think when it comes to playing our game BY THE RULES that are set by SSUSA. The staff has repeatedly and unequivocally stated that bat rolling is considered to be altering a bat. Yet one man continues to pontificate endlessly about it. Amazing!!! GSPW001-I applaud you for your last 2 sentences.
'Therefore this honor oath is very important. I feel sorry for the ones who cannot self impose it.'

'Methinks thou protesteth too much, Joe.'
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Mark.
You're twisting in the wind
but let's take it off line
and spare the less philosophically inclined.
joerinaldi56@yahoo.com
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
SSUSA and posters.
How is Gary C's above comment not disparaging
enough to be removed by SSUSA policy
and why?
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Tater.
If I was a cheater I might be be worried.
I don't even beat my bats against tires
which I've been told is altering a bat
legally speaking.
Would you say so, sir?
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Mark.
Consumer morality????
C'mon, man.
You gotta do better than that.
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
To all of you on the board that have emailed me today about this and supported me-thanks! I had over 30 emails today, Joe, ALL in support and several with warnings that you would go 'offline' and let loose a barrage of insulting and endless emails. Wow, were they right-there you are doing exactly that. I think you've ridden this horse before. I'm not afraid to put it out here and let everyone on the board read it. You have repeatedly proved my points all day. I am done debating with you on this. It only leads to infinite posts.................
When SSUSA changes their rule, we can debate again on it. Thanks for providing proof that a thread like this can be constructive.
Aug. 18, 2011
birdie
Men's 60
683 posts
Hey Gang, I am a little unaware on this subject but from the naked eye can you tell if a bat has been rolled or beaten against a tree or a ball in the bed spread? There are a lot of younger guys getting into the senior ball and from what I have read there is a lot of cheating going on with the younger crowd. we need to police the new group of people that have been getting away with all the crap. So let us start with ourselves and go from there. Thanks Harry
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Now I know why you know so much about
situational ethics, Mark
because you exemplify them.

If you are concerned about morality
or my moral stand regarding any of this
"Stuff" you or anyone can email me
and we could talk it out/through
like accountable, respectful and caring men
again sparing the website and it's contributors
having to listen/hear us any longer.
But you have balked, sir.
Let in the winning run
without even throwing a pitch.

We all have grown and changed
with our experiences in life, Mark
and it's sad that you have claimed the high road
to morality without the follow through
or foundation it takes
to want talk one on one with me.

I've talked with Gary S, Jeff, E4 and many,
many others and have found not only
our differences cleared but that we are genuinely fond of one another.

You were right.
Situational ethics can be a very slippery slope
as we all can plainly see.

Aug. 18, 2011
thebull
Men's 50
59 posts
Tater50, I understand the point your making, but if someone is willing to cheat I they will cheat regardless of signing a Roster that states they wonít. Also I think itís redundant, when I signed my Seniors Card and each time I sign a Tournament sign in sheet Iím signing a Contract that says I wonít Cheat. By signing Iím agreeing to abide by the Senior Softball Rulebook which has been clearly clarified by SSUSA as it pertains to Altered Bats.
Again, why should a Coach be held responsible for a player who uses an altered bat without his knowledge. Remember we are talking about Grown Adult Men who have already agreed ď In WritingĒ that they will not cheat.
A comment about Einstein, Iíve read many of his Posts and I have never seen him say he has cheated. Some of his Posts are odd and inflammatory but does he really deserve to be labeled a Cheater, in Fact I believe he has stated he does not Cheat. Not caring about rolled bats does not constitute Cheating. If you do not like him then openly debate him, thatís what the Forum is for. Quit taking cheap shots, try making a point, be happy to read it.
Einstein and Webbie25, What the heck are you talking about, Religion and Politics in the same Post, Iím lost.
theBull
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Sorry Bull.
I've offered a couple of times and will again
to Mark to take whatever conversation we might have that would be constructive to us off line
but sadly he has declined.
I'm open to him and his contact any time
now or in the future.
And yes, you got me right and what I have said.
I don't have or own a rolled, endloaded
or shaved bat.
I have said numerous times that cheating
destroys competition and removes the real
contest and all the honor from winning
regardless of how it is effected
which to me
would include cheating with a shaved
or loaded bat.
I personally do not consider Bat Rolling cheating.
It's the same thing as breaking them in to me
in understanding and effect.
And I simply do not care about this rule
for myself and anyone else.
There, I've said it again.
I don't care about it
and most of the guys/players I've talked with
don't either.
And that's a fact.
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
thebull-call me tomorrow and we can have a few laughs about this whole thing over BP. I'll 'splain whats really going on and guaranteed you'll split a gut.
Notice 31 posts on this thread alone and he won't take the oath not to cheat. I have emailed with a lot of his 'colleagues' and have ample warning. Bring out those 52/275 balls and I really want to try them.
Guys that emailed me, thanks, rest assured I will never break your confidentiality.





Aug. 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
JOEY THE CHEATER
YOU SAID I personally do not consider Bat Rolling cheating. WELL THEN YOU AND YOUR BOYS ARE CHEATERS IF THEY THINK LIKE YOU.
WHY SHOULD I GET THROWN OFF THE SITE YOUR THE DISHONEST CHEATER NOT ME.
Aug. 18, 2011
tinman
Men's 50
75 posts
thebull,right on
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
How is this comment not disparaging, SSUSA,
in intent and content
and it characterizes Gary C and his posts
yet you continue to support him
in direct opposition to your standards
of conduct for this site.
Not only does this appear wrong
it begs the question why.

Why DO you continue to support him
in contradiction to your own standards
for inappropriate behavior on this site?
Aug. 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Joe why won't you sign the pledge?
You tell everyone what a great hitter you are now we don't know if
it's you or your dirty bat.
MAN UP TAKE THE PLEDGE
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Let's see, Mark.

Have a few laughs at someone's expense
52 x 275 balls
insinuation of players as cheaters
lively bats and balls yields immoral players
Hmmmmmmmmm.
We heard these things before
as a matter of fact, over and over, again.
Propaganda.
Marketing.
Same old story and same old song.
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Man up from Gary C.
That's just hysterical.
Aug. 18, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You know.
I think there would be a distinct advantage
to a player "thought" to use a HOT bat
just like when Gaylord Perry said that once
players thought he was throwing a spit ball
the contest was psychologiclly tilted
in his behalf game, set and match.
If pitchers and fielders thought I was swinging
a dirty bat it would make them more afraid
to pitch or stand in front of a ball I hit
or drive them back to the fences providing
the maximum amount of space for miss hits
to fall in, all to get on base more
and boost my batting average.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I don't need to pledge not to use an altered bat
any more than I need to pledge not to hit an
old lady on a street corner.
Unnecessary and inappropriate for a variety
of reasons.

Just More Propaganda
and marketing.
Same old story and same old song.

Aug. 18, 2011
gary c
411 posts
Could it be because you have cheated and will continue to do so.
Joey R. MAN UP PROVE IT'S YOUR TALENT
SIGN THE PLEDGE
Aug. 18, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
hey mark,on the 52's which mfg'er you hitting and give us a report on your dislikes and likes.also don't try and gorilla them,just use that nice swing of yours.i'm gonna do a tee test with the ones i have,to take out all the variables so i can get a true test of them and what bats hit them the best.have a good laugh for me also...
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
Amazing-Joe, I was referring to the fact that thebull has some 52/275 balls and has offered to let me hit them in BP so I can see what the talk is about. It had nothing to do with you in any way. How you twisted that into what you did gives me a good laugh.
Amazing2-2 of the guys that emailed said you would make the big push on the board to get me emailing with you so you could do what they say you have done before-a staggering amount of emails. They even said you would use the phrase 'Sadly, he won't....'
Nowhere on this thread have I ever accused you of cheating.
You win, Joe. You have established 2 points and I will debate no longer.
1. You have established that you will not take an oath to use honest bats.
2. You have established that you support rolling of bats to break them in.
thebull-I heartily agree-where did God get into this one? When Einstein mentioned God and pledges, I couldn't resist-having attended a religious college myself. You know me by now-can't get my tongue out of my cheek. Sorry if anyone was offended.
For me, this debate ends here, Joe, but I hope the idea behind the oaths is not lost on people. We must start somewhere and abide by the rules that are set. If you don't like the rules, go to the convention, stand up, present you're ideas, and try to change them.
Aug. 18, 2011
Webbie25
Men's 60
1981 posts
I'll let you know, mad dog-I knew he had them and we just haven't hooked up so I can try them.
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
ok mark thanks,tater ask me to test them side by side with the 44's and find out how close they are,to me the easiest way is to use a tee.also gonna try and use metal bats,sure wished i had a rolled bat to use,do you know anyone who might have one.....DOH,LOL......
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Good tone in the last post, Mark.
The sound of real care was there
for all to share.

That's better for all of us and different from your last posts in response to me.
Nothing better than a true man of God.
but
you're still wrong about me
and wrong to have tried to humiliate me in public.
I said I don't care if someone/anyone rolls their bats.
I didn't say I supported it as among other things
it makes them weaker and not last as long.

I don't care about bat rolling one way or another
as don't the great majority of those I've talked with
about it.
I think it's a clever stuff to round out the package
that some are using to 'demonize' us, yes, Mark,
demon as in Satan, for who we are and the game
we love to play and have playing since we been babies i.e.
lively bat/ball baseball/softball.

Market driven stuff can be hellish at times
if not at all times, wouldn't you say?
And what's wrong with standing up for what's right and good
and in opposition to what is situationally ethical
and other than God-centered?

With all respect to those who truly intend to help us
and our sport signing a pledge is offensive to some moral
and independent people like me and as Tater said
won't stop anyone from doing it just because they
sign a pledge.
The devil, mind you, can take on any form
and quote scripture with the saints
and be careful,
I thought I saw some cloven feet and horns on a few of those running up to sign their names.






Aug. 19, 2011
GSWP001
Men's 60
74 posts
Thanks Einstein, you don't even know me and yet I get lumped in with cloven feet and horns. Speaks alot of your issues. Just because I took the pledge and you didn't I did not drop to slander and bad taste. Maybe you should rethink your words before printing them.
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I said, "SOME cloven feet on a FEW of those running".
Why did you think I was referring to you?
I wasn't.
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I even said "with all respect to those whose intentions
are good" directly before the reference to cloven feet.
C'mon now.
If you wanna come at me be accurate and fair.
Aug. 19, 2011
gary c
411 posts
How's this you will not sign the pledge because you are a cheater if not why.
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
You're a function of the message board
and reflect on them and all of us but not on me
or any of us.
As a matter of fact,
you make me look good
which as most would say who've seen me,
is hard to do.
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
well as someone who quotes all this bible stuff,you sure aren't a believer,as if you were you would have more compassion for your fellow softballers which you have none.every one else has no prol pledging,but you.you don't care if you kill someone with this hot bat/ball combo where as most all who replied in the thread that pricer started would play with lesser lethal equipment,but you. so please get off this god crap you spout as you do not believe.
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Wow, Robert.
I'm going to leave what you just said
stand on it's own.
Telling me what and how to believe in God.
Wow.
That just screams volumes about who you are and aren't.
You did it to yourself, Robert.
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
i did nothing,i am man enough to say no i don't believe and don't try and force it on anyone else,nor do i want anyone telling me i must believe.when you can prove there is this person you call god then maybe i will think about it,but till then,oh well get over it.
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Wow, Robert.
Your burying yourself.
Aug. 19, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Let's leave God and religion out of the conversation please. We all have difference of opinions on that subject and this is a softball message board, isn't it?
Aug. 19, 2011
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
pricer just what i'm thinking.........
Aug. 19, 2011
gary c
411 posts
you won't pledge because you have to cheat to be the person you are.
SIGN THE PLEDGE
Please keep your posts under a 1000 words
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Gary.
You're the responsibility of SSUSA to deal with
and not ours.
But you make me look good
so thanks.
Jeff.
There are a lot of people and probably
the majority of people in the US for whom religion and their belief in God
is central to their being and reflects
all their concerns and thinking.
For them and us, it would impossible to consider
anything without it's relationship
to the Creator and is not negative
to quote or refer to especially in times
of conflict, confusion and need or anytime
for that matter.
If Robert chooses not to believe in God
or a God that's his prerogative but shed's some light on his being and sense of person.
He's not ashamed nor am I for him regarding his notions but they are telling us about him
just as when someone who says they believe in God
does.
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
SPA for example with Ridge Hooks
is deeply steeped in religious principles
of the sincerest and most fundamental nature
by which they ground their sense of softball
and us when we're with them.
They often talk of God and softball in the same sentence and no one can or should find fault with that.
I think you're point is well taken, though.
No one should say anything to anyone about what they believe and their integrity regarding their beliefs, their interpretation or significance.
That is always and only what is between exclusively between any man and his Creator
and do so is of the most ignorant and egregious
behavior.
Aug. 19, 2011
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Are we talking Pentecostal, Catholic, Muslim, Buddha, Baptist or any of the others that I did not mention? Every one of them is a bit different. But should have nothing to do with any of these conversations unless it is specifically mentioned in the original question or statement. Let's be courteous and respectful and if someone wants to discuss religion or anything associated with it, start a thread for it.
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
That's a great point made with good intentions
yet I feel one should not limit the way
another thinks, or feels, or talks especially
when it comes to his religion.
Specifically, it should be left up to each individual to decide what to say
and when to say or refer to his religion
or belief in God as he may believe and see fit
in or out of softball
and in or out of this message board.

That's a lot of words to say
that not only should we not comment on someone's beliefs and statements regarding religion
we shouldn't and can't be telling him
WHEN and WHERE to make them.

I quote Jesus, the old and new testaments
all the time because they have
all influenced and shaped my being
and personality and continue to grow in me
as I grow.
Aug. 19, 2011
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
More friendships have been lost discussing Religion and Politics then any other discussion.
Religious & political beliefs are very personal and shouldnt be dragged thru a softball website.
There is a time and place for any discussion, this just doesnt seem to be the right place for a discussion on religion or politics.
Maybe a thread on religion would be better.
Aug. 19, 2011
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Well said you old bull and we still disagree.
Aug. 20, 2011
gary c
411 posts

You're the responsibility of SSUSA to deal with but at least I am not a cheater
JOEY
Oct. 9, 2011
PJ3P
Men's 50
76 posts
A little perspective on rolled vs shaved bats.
In the USSSA Conference the acceptable compression is 220 or above. A new Easton tests around 400. A Miken Ultra II around 180. It took very little time for the cheaters to figure out how to shave a bat to pass at 220 and be good to use for an entire tournament. Someone who ONLY ROLLS his bats had two Eastons fail at 160 and 146. Thats right only rolled and way exceeding an Ultra II. Yes a vast majority of players have rationalized that rolling is ok. This does not make it right. Personally I think that those who roll their bats should have to wear pink tutu's when they play because they sure as hell aren't men. Why is under 40 softball so filled with cheaters?
Because they were raised by little wussies that cheat in senior softball now. My God, good balls, great bats and you little girls still feel the need to cheat, pathetic.

I will not cheat, do not swing rolled or shaved bats or bats hit on a tree or any other illegitimate way to break them in or alter them.
The time has come to demand integrity in softball at every level.
Patrick Phillips
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