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Sept. 13, 2022
captainup
Topic: Tournaments
Discussion: Worlds 70 Major Bracket Logic?

Dave, Thanks for the response. I believe the confusion was the fact that Timberworks did play and win the 65 Major plus worlds last year and won as a 70 major plus team. I believe Doug has responded that it was Timberworks decision to play in the 65 major plus division worlds. Also, I was inaccurately told that the other major plus 70 team last year was getting 5 runs from Timberworks. I normally try to verify first before taking info. Don verified that the team did not get 5 runs from Timberworks (my fault for assuming the info from others was true. It wasn't hard to believe because of how Timberworks supposedly was asked to be major plus plus as a 65 team).
Doug, I believe that was you responding? I stand corrected and apologize for not validating the 5 run issue first. I stand by my compliments to the Timberworks team and players. I believe the current bracketing, especially after last year, caught many off guard. I was not aware you could volunteer to play down one age level. That makes it even more impressive!

This post was never intended or meant to be anything against the Timberworks team or players and hopefully, it was not taken that way. I pretty much know most everyone on the team and have played ball with or against them many times. It is because of that which I have so much respect for the Timberworks team and players. Had there been another major plus 70 team to play against in this year's worlds perhaps this thread would never have been created.
Sept. 13, 2022
captainup
Topic: Tournaments
Discussion: Worlds 70 Major Bracket Logic?

Dave
With all due respect you have never truly answered the questions that cite actual history and facts. Rather you have created your own spin which I doubt anyone takes as nothing more than a subjective rather than an objective response. I never expected anything to change because of how close we are to the tournament. In fact I don’t normally respond to or write comments on this message board. But Don Angle brought up a good point in the start of these posts “not sure about the logic of placing the lone 70 Major Plus team in the 70 Majors bracket?”. A logical assessment was mostly ignored.
As I mentioned previously, Timberworks is one of the finest senior softball teams in the history of senior softball, great players and people. How they’ve played is a credit to their reputation. As I recall they were so good as a 65 major plus team they were giving 5 runs to other 65 major plus teams and still winning! As a 70 major plus team they were still giving 5 runs to other 70 major plus teams and still winning big. Apparently, there are no more 70 major plus teams for Timberworks to play so they have been playing mostly in the 65 major plus division. It was in this 65 major plus division where they not only won the 2021 65 major plus worlds but also discovered that their competition was at least equal. Perhaps the biggest concern is why one would switch their competition to a somewhat lower division in the 70’s after playing competitively in 65 major plus all year? What are divisions for other than to provide some sort of parity between teams in the same division, especially when the rules for creating these teams differs? Mike Adair appropriately noted a big difference between major plus and major within the same age group. And as a reminder, Timberworks was previously giving 5 runs to other major plus 70 year old teams when they existed! And now the staff has placed Timberworks into the 70 major division and you call that parity?

And after seeing the competitiveness and parity with 65 major plus teams, where perhaps Timberworks didn’t win every tournament but placed 1st in two of them, 2nd in three of them and 3rd in one, you responded with the following: “That's good info that ratifies the grouping decision and should yield a competitive bracket” Competitive bracket for whom, exactly? And how does one justify Timberworks historically giving 5 runs to other 70 major plus teams and only the same 5 runs to 70 major teams? So why are there brackets within an age group anyway?

I think we all appreciate all the work you and all your staff do for this organization. And I’m sure it sometimes feels like a thankless job. Yes, we’ll play in what has already been set up but many of us feel we have a right to speak up with concerns as members when the occasion arises. And I do appreciate and support civil and respectful discussions.

As you say and I agree,
Travel safely and good luck! ..
Lenny Meinecke

Sept. 13, 2022
captainup
Topic: Tournaments
Discussion: Worlds 70 Major Bracket Logic?

Reviewing the various comments and replies it is interesting to note how subjective the decisions have been.
Looking at the big tournaments since the Vegas Worlds in 2021 here are the results (in order of finish):
note; that there were no other 70 major plus teams for Timberworks to play against so they instead played in the 65 division and, with one exception, all were 65 Major Plus tournaments.
So curiously, if Timberworks has successfully played in the 65 division all year, including winning the 2021 65 Major Plus World Championships, why has Timberworks now been added to the 70 major division, instead?

2021 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 65 Major Plus
Men’s 65/70 Major Plus (6 Teams)
1. Timberworks/Suncoast 70 (CA) – 70 Major Plus Champion
2. McDowell & Sons/Drobena Builders 65 (IN) – 65 Major Plus Champion
3. Texas Crush Sixty Fives
4. Top Gun Elite 65 (CA)

In 2022 rules were changed allowing 65’s to play with 11 on defense just like the 70’s)

2022 SPRING WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 65 Major Plus
Men's 65/70 Major+:
1. Timberworks/Suncoast (70s - CA) (70 Major Plus) - TOC Berth
2. Demolition (65s - CA) (65 Major Plus) - TOC Berth
3. Top Gun Elite (65s - CA) (65 Major Plus)

2022 SOUTHWEST CHAMPIONSHIPS 65 Major Plus
Men's 65/70+ Major Plus
1. Cal Energy (65 Major Plus) - TOC Berth
2. Timberworks/Suncoast (CA) (70 Major Plus)
3. Demolition (CA) (65 Major Plus)

2022 ROCK 'N RENO CHALLENGE CUP 65 Major Plus
Men's 65/70+ Major+:
1. Demolition (65-CA) (65 Major Plus) - TOC Berth
2. Texas Crush Sixty Five (65 Major Plus)
3. Timberworks/Suncoast (70-CA) (70 Major Plus)

2022 JIM SHERMAN MEMORIAL/NORTHWEST CHAMPIONSHIPS 65 Major
Men's 65/70+ Platinum
1. Oregon Crabs 65 (65 Major) - TOC Berth (65 Major)
2. Timberworks/Suncoast (CA) (70 Major Plus)
3. REH Second Wind (WA) (65 Major)

2022 WESTERN NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS 65 Major Plus
Men's 65/70+ Major Plus
1. Cal Energy - TOC Berth/USA Game Berth (65 Major Plus)
2. Timberworks/Suncoast (CA) - USA Game Berth (70 Major Plus)
3. Texas Crush Sixty Fives (65 Major Plus)

Sept. 12, 2022
captainup
Topic: Tournaments
Discussion: Worlds 70 Major Bracket Logic?

Timberworks is a great team with terrific players and highly respected skills. I think Don makes a good point regarding the upcoming Senior Softball Worlds. I don't believe the concerns have anything negative to do with any of the players, but rather an acknowledgement and a show of respect for one of the finest senior softball teams to have played the game based on the teams record over the past 7 years or more. And perhaps they can be beaten on any given day. The real question is: why and how was the 70 major bracket created to include the 70's major plus Timberworks for this year's world tournament?
We know Timberworks has an incentive to win the entire bracket. They will play as they always have, to win!
3 things come to mind when questioning how this latest bracket situation for the senior 70's age group was established. There are reasons why there are separate age groups and divisions of teams based on their skills, records, abilities, age, etc. in an effort to maintain competitiveness while attempting to add some fairness. It also generates more participation overall as lower ranked teams can maintain competitiveness against similarly ranked teams, with the primary goal of having fun while striving to win. Otherwise, why are there age groups and divisions in the first place?
1: Historically Timberworks Major plus had to give other major plus teams in their same age group 5 runs, yet Timberworks still dominated.
2: Major plus teams can draft players from all over while major teams are more limited to where they can draft from.
3: In numerous instances a major plus team playing in a big tournament either played in the same seeding age group with major teams but then played in separately against other major plus teams during bracket games……or…… if no other major plus teams in same age group, the major plus team would be placed in the next lower age group major bracketing to play both seeding and bracket games. This was done in an attempt to equalize the competition. Giving runs or adding extra players was implemented to supposedly equalize the competition. Neither necessarily works perfectly and are still somewhat subjective.
To say that placing the 70's Timberworks major plus team in the same age group with 70's major teams isn’t problematic would be naive and ignores some previously mentioned reasons. Since Timberworks has an incentive to win the entire bracket it certainly can have a huge impact on any major team matched against them during bracket play. Timberworks storied history over the past 7 years has been demonstrated over and over again, against not only other 70's major plus teams, but even against major plus and major teams in the 65 age group! Timberworks will be highly favored to win one half of its bracket with a good chance of placing the 70 major teams in that half into the losers bracket. Based on this history, a question can be asked as to why is Timberworks being scheduled to play in the lower 70 major division when it historically dominated its own 70 major plus division, even after giving 5 runs to the other teams? And again, Timberworks was very competitive against 65 year old major and major plus teams, as well.
This is not a diss of Timberworks but rather a compliment and respect to what the team has achieved. It drafts some of the best players around the country unlike the major division teams, and continues to dominate. If parity in divisions and competitiveness is a goal, especially based on records and history already mentioned, why and how was the 70 major bracket created to include the 70's major plus Timberworks for this year's world tournament?


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