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Discussion: Rules question. Happened at Huntsman

Posted Discussion
Oct. 15, 2013
Michigan Vet
Men's 55
230 posts
Rules question. Happened at Huntsman
This happened at Huntsman in the game before ours:

Bases loaded one out. Fly ball to right field. Players on second and third tag and score on fly ball. Runner on first never tags up and takes off for second. Right fielder throws to first base before time is called and umpire calls runner out for not tagging up (Not a dead ball appeal). Umpire then claims inning ending double play with the 2 runs not counting! Batting team goes nuts and claims runs should count. Umpire in chief and tournament director were called and a 30 minute argument ensued. They looked thru the rule book and many different rules and made a decision the runs count (not sure what rule they finally found), but were still not sure after they were done.

Even in the stands it was 50/50 if the runs count!

SSUSA or someone who really knows please answer, who is correct.

Thanks in advance.
Oct. 16, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Hi Michigan Vet-Stick8 will know, but I think this depends on whether the runners scored before the out was made a first base. From the sounds of it, they did because you say 'before time is called', implying a delay.
Go Tigers!
Oct. 16, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Michigan Vet, like we talked yesterday, not tagging up on a caught fly ball does not constitute a force play. In that situation the runner on first is not forced or required to go to second. The way you describe the play the run(s)count if the runner on third and/or second touch the scoring plate (or cross the scoring line) before the first baseman touched first. I could see the runner on third doing that but not the runner on second--unless that runner was Usain Bolt.
Here's one that happened to me umpiring the E worlds: bases loaded, two outs. Grounder to third. Ball takes a bad hop hitting the thirdbaseman in the shoulder. Alertly, the shortstop runs over picks the ball up, looks home but has no play. He then moves to tag the runner going from second to third (who was as slow as our friend Les!!) for the third out but the tag was applied after the runner at third crossed the plate. Does the run count?
Oct. 16, 2013
BruceinGa
Men's 60
2665 posts
I would think that if the ss tagged the runner going to third the run counted. If he was thinking he wouldn't tag the runner, he would make the force at third, the run wouldn't count.
Oct. 16, 2013
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
yep stick has it nailed.....but what do you expect from an ump......

second version by stick ...run does not count as the runner going to third is a forced out(he has to go to 3rd)so no run can score.......don't care how long you take to get the force.....



oh webbie,tiggers suck.....GO BOSTON.......
Oct. 16, 2013
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
420 posts
On the second point Stick raised, the force out does not have to be executed at the base, the runner is still being forced to advance. He can no longer retreat to second because of the runner from first, who is in turn being forced to advance by the batter/runner. The run does not count.
Oct. 16, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
The call is OUT on the appeal and the runs scored before the appeal submitted. Both runs score.
Oct. 17, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
Runners aren't forced to run on caught a fly ball. This is a timing play, and run scores. In other words, the run doesn't count only if the out was made on the runner before the run scored.

If this is a missed base, a force would have still remained in effect.
Oct. 17, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
mad dog, Texas Transplant, paul0784 and Wayne 37 are correct!! As Wayne 37 correctly stated, Michigan Vets scenario is a timing play.
Here's another one, a bit tougher. (this didn't occur in a game I umped but I was asked about this) Bases loaded, no outs. Fly ball to right field. Rightfielder catches it. Runner at third tags and scores. Runner at second (an extremely fast runner) tries to do a double tag. The right-fielder makes a strong throw to home and the throw is up the line and inadvertantly hits the on-deck batter. Is it still a live ball? Is it a dead ball interference?
You make the call!!
If i posted this before I apologize in advance
Oct. 17, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Stick8-live ball-on deck batter has a right to be there. No interference.
Oct. 17, 2013
SSUSA Staff
1270 posts
Live ball, result of the play stands. Interference is only with respect to an offensive player intentionally interfering with a defensive player while (s)he is attempting to make a play. The scenario proposed seems to indicate an offensive player entitled to be on the field of play (even in foul territory), no intent to interfere and no defender making a play in the immediate area of the on deck batter.
Oct. 27, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
A good rule of thumb............players just can't disappear. I don't know the rule for softball, and how interference by the ondeck hitter is penalized, but in baseball, I would kill the play, and return runners to last legally acquired base.
Oct. 28, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
Michigan Vet, I was the ump involved with that call..the ball was caught on a great catch at the fence and that's why runners took off and didn't tag up..that explains why the runner from 2nd scored but was never appealed.. Ball was thrown directly to 1st and I called runner out for third out.. In my 20 yrs of umping I've never had that call so that's why I asked for UIC and director for a ruling.. Wanted to make sure we got it right.. My ruling was that runs scored and their rules said no they didn't..thats the way it ended with the home team not scoring in the bottom of inning.. runs didn't effect outcome of the game.. believe me now I know how to make that call !!!
Oct. 29, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Vinny LV, it's good that you took it upon yourself to consult with the UIC to make sure you got it right.
I'm curious, did the UIC explain the reason why no runs were counted?
Oct. 30, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
Stick, they ruled that it was a continuous play with no time out ever being called when ball was thrown back to 1st base.. score of game ended 12-9 instead of 14-9.. when I do games I have the players best interest in mind cause they are paying the money that pays me to make sure that they get a fair shake while playing.. I still play and that's all I ask of the umps doin my games.. It's not about me when I'm doin games.. I get my satisfaction when games over and the guys say "hey blue good game"..
Oct. 31, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Vinny LV unless the Huntsman Games has different rules, I would take issue with what the UIC ruled. Remember in the situation as described all base runners were not forced to move up. The fact that the runner on first didn't tag up is not a factor. The only way a run can score on this play is if a runner crosses the scoring line or touches the scoring plate before the out is recorded at first. Let's take this play a step further. Same situation--bases loaded, 1 out and a fly ball. Outfielder makes the catch--2 outs. Runner at third tags and scores. Runner at second tags and goes to third. The runner at first does the same thing as described above but keeps going to second. The umpire calls time. Next batter comes up, the pitcher appeals the runner on first left early. Umpire calls him out--3 outs. Does the run (who came in from third) count?
Nov. 2, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
Stick< they was playing SPA rules and I don't know how they came to that conclusion but that was their decision.. Like I said earlier " I'm glad it didn't effect the outcome of the game"..I now know the correct way to call the play if it ever happens again.. I also agree with your hypothetical play.. Have a good one..
Nov. 2, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
oh yeah, run does score...
Nov. 3, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
I wouldn't call stick8's situation hypothetical. It happens more often than a blue moon. Something hypothetical are what us baseball umpires refer to as "third world plays".

There are situations where you do have to rule on something that is not in the rulebook.

Take for example when Randy Johnson hit the bird with a pitch. Not covered in the rules.

Here is hypothetical question for you. Team A calls timeout to send in a courtesy runner. Runner who is replaced is on first, but courtesy runner goes to second by mistake. After the hitter knocks in the run, you are informed by Team B that the courtesy runner positioned himself on the wrong base.

What's the call?
Nov. 3, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Vinny LV you are correct!! Let's take it even one step further. Suppose the runner at third also left early. After the defense appealed the runner at first leaving early for the 3rd out can they appeal the runner at third base leaving early?
Nov. 3, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Wayne 37 the way you describe the play the next batter executed their turn at bat so there is no call, the play stands.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!!
Nov. 3, 2013
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
420 posts
Stick8, wouldn't the situation you described with the runner from third also leaving early, if properly appealed, be a "fourth out" situation, which would negate the run that would otherwise have scored on the timing play at first?
Nov. 3, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
AS long as the defensive team doesn't leave the field all three runners can be appealed. The only time the run would not score is if the runner that was appealed is the actual runner that scored and was called out. Then no run. Two outs and the runner at third was appealed and called out no run scores. If any of the other runners were called out the run would still score because of the timing issue. Hope this helps?
Nov. 4, 2013
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
yes,that would be the 4th out situation that we hear about .........like paul says defense can appeal and stop the run from scoring......
Nov. 4, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
TexasTransplant and paul0784 are correct!!! Here's another scenario. Runner on third with 2 outs, 4 runs have scored. Pitcher announces that he going to walk the next 2 batters to set up a force at any base. The first batter runs across the field (doesn't touch first) to second base. The next batter, steps in the box and goes to first base. Then after the next batter steps in the box the pitcher appeals that the runner on 2nd missed first. What's the call?
Nov. 4, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
You basically walked two batters one at a time so both should touch first base and if he doesn't he should be called out.
Nov. 4, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
It's not something that happens with regularity! Technically, you lose the appeal on the batter who went to second since the following batter went to first--that's considered throwing a pitch to the next batter. Let's say it was the 4th and 5th batter that were walked. The #6 batter is at the plate--you cannot appeal something that 2 batters before did--you can only do that if the next batter is up--5th batter.
That being said most umpires (including myself) wouldn't allow the batter to go directly to second, they'd make them touch first then go to second. Some umpires might declare that it's ok for the batter to go directly to second.
Some might consider this a correctable situation.
Nov. 4, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
Stick I had the same answer as Texas & Paul.. They did appeal the runner from 3rd and I told them I didn't see him cause I was lookn at RF to make sure he caught the ball.. which is my 1st priority.. I could see 1st & 2nd as I came out from behind plate towards 1st base & mound.. It was not a routine catch by any means..

you can appeal all the runners as long as its done properly..

Wayne I may have used the wrong word but I'm sure ya new what I meant..
As far as the situation you presented I as an ump may call a do over because I've gotta be aware of whats going on in my game..That in my opinion is a correctable mistake no matter who likes it or doesn't.. sometimes ya gotta have integrity as an ump..

Stick or any other ump "do you agree on this" ???

Nov. 4, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Vinny LV sometimes you can't see everything but a national hof umpire told me once that there isn't a call you can't make walking out in the middle of the field--in a one man. And I believe he is spot on. But your scenario illustrates a good reason for having two umps in competitive games. But unfortunately the economics won't allow it. So we do the best we can.
To answer your question I must disagree about a do-over. I've never heard of a do-over!! I understand and am all about the integrity thing but I view Wayne's scenario as being akin to missing a base or leaving early. It may be blatant but if the next batter executes his turn at bat it's too late to appeal.
Nov. 4, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
In my scenario. I would chalk it up to my stupidity, and let it go, or I might eject the player who went to the wrong base if I suspect they did it purposely when I was attending to some other umpire duty such as adjusting the scoreboard. Either way the play stands........the batter completing his time at bat wouldn't enter into the equation as this isn't an appealable offense.

How about this......easy one for me, but can be a brain teaser for less experienced umpires let's say.

The batter hitting in the sixth slot bats for the batter in the first slot, and hits a single. After a proper appeal by the defense, what's the call, and who is the next batter?
Nov. 4, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
Another one. Batter in the four slot bats in the three slot, and hits a single. Defense make a proper appeal. What's the call, and who is the next batter?
Nov. 4, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
Same scenario for both the person that batted out of order is out and the right person gets up to the plate. If there are two outs then the inning is over and the person that was supposed to bat in that situation leads of the next inning.
Nov. 5, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
Damn we got some smart umpires out there.. SSUSA and Huntsman are lookn for guys like yinz.. Also that 6th batter would bat in his spot..

Paul it's not the egos, it's just that they want the work from the get go.. It's not only Vegas where this is done.. Travelers get 1st preference in my experience.. Don't know why they think this way cause they have the expense of putting them up in rooms..
Nov. 5, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
I understand it happens. Think about who is getting short end not SSUSA the players do. So, if that happened n the EAST coast I would jump in and help out for our brothers the players? No?
Nov. 5, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Wayne37, going by USSSA rules (baseball and other associations may be different)
First scenario: An out is called on the 1st batter and the batter who follows the proper batter is up. All base-runners that may have advanced go back to the base they occupied when the incorrect batter was up.
Second scenario: An out is called on the #3 batter and the batter who follows him is up. Any baserunners who advanced on the hit go back to the bases they occupied when the incorrect batter was up.
Follow up, what constitutes a proper appeal compared to an improper appeal?
Nov. 5, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Paul in some cases your correct. We had a guy make a foul ball call on a ball that hit the foul pole--he said it hit the foul side of the pole!!
Nov. 6, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
Problem is Stick is that hitting the foul pole is like hitting the foul line as long as the ball hits it it is fair? The other solution you had in your previous post is incorrect because you are penalizing the offensive team twice. If a player bats out of order and a team picks up on it after the illegal player hits the illegal player is out and the batter who was supposed to be at bat gets in the box with one out. If it is caught before the batter hits the ball it is a no harm no foul and the correct batter is placed in the box with the count the illegal batter had on him. I believe you can lok that up anywhere abd it wil be the same. I am actually a USSSA umpire and that is what I have been trained. I actually go to a lot of tournaments and ask different umpires questions and get a lot of great info in doing so. I also coach a 60 AAA team in SSUSA and sometimes it stinks that I know the rules and some umpires don't and are there just for the money. That is why I speak so much praise for Tommy from CA because he umpires like I do and I applause that. Plus he knows the rules also. Thanks for listening while I rant...
Nov. 6, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Paul here is the USSSA rule as it reads from the 2013 rulebook: "if the mistake is discovered after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before a pitch has been made to a succeeding batter, the batter who should have batted is called out. All baserunners, if they advanced, must return to the base occupied at the time the incorrect batter took a position in the batters box. The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the batter called out for failure to bat. This may even be carried over to the first batter of the next inning, if the appealed out was the thrid out"
Example: let's say stick is batting 3rd, paul is batting 4th and Wayne is batting 5th. For some strange reason I went braindead and you batted when I was supposed to--thus we batted out of order. Runners are on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. You get a base hit and both runners score. Wayne comes up to hit and before a pitch is thrown the defense appeals that we batted out of order. A check of the scorebook confirms it. Per rule, I'm called out for failure to bat and the runners go back to 2nd and 3rd. There are now 2 outs and whoever followed me in the order is up to bat, which would be you.
Nov. 6, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
I stand corrected Stick, thank you and it will be called correctly from now on. I was trained wrong and I have been doing this the same way for 20 ears and never got a complaint about it? I guess if you sell something that sounds right or close to right it works? In your scenario you were scheduled to hit and I was following you and Wayne after me and I for some reason hit in your place. You would be out and I would hit again? I like mine better that I would be out and you would hit next? But a rule is a rule. Thank you for correcting me and it will be called right from now on.
Nov. 6, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
stick I wanna know why I didn't get to bat ??? Ha ha !!! or was I the 4th batter ???

Seriously tho what if a batter comes into game and doesn't report and proceeds to get a hit.. now the catcher ask if that batter reported and is told by the ump that batter didn't report to him.. Is that batter out or just officially in the game ??
Nov. 7, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Vinny LV you were actually on 2nd base on that play!! lol
In USSSA the answer to your question is once that batter is in the box he is officially in the game. The hit he got counts. There is no out and no penalty.
SSUSA and other associations may have a different rule
Nov. 7, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Paul some rules are a bit puzzling but like you said a rule is a rule. One rule in SSUSA that seems weird to me is when you hit a home run everyone must touch the next base. AFAIC it should be hit and sit.
Nov. 7, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
If it is to speed things up which I believe it is makes sense to me to hit and sit?
Nov. 7, 2013
VINNY LV
Men's 50
178 posts
thanx for putn me in coach !!!lmao

AFA has the same rule on HR..

Thanx for the input on my question Stick..

Also I stand corrected on ruling this post is about.. Mike Baker called today and told me that he did allow runs to score.. Not theway I remember it but its over and done with.. Didn't affect the game and I now know how to call it.. Called a learning experience..
Nov. 8, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
First scenario, the six hole batter is declared out, and the number seven batter is the proper hitter.

Second scenario, the three hole hitter is declared out, and the four hole hitter comes up again.

In a batting out off order, you never move up, always down in the batting order. The best rule of thumb you need to remember.

A proper appeal would be if the team appealed the batter out of order before the next pitch is thrown to the next hitter.

You can only appeal after the time at bat is finished. To appeal in the middle of an at bat, the proper batter is sent to bat with the same count on the hitter he replaced.

I would imagine since nobody can advance in slow pitch, all runners return to last occupied base.

Nov. 8, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
There is such a thing as an "advantageous fourth out". I just can't think of good scenario at the moment.

Remember, I'm just using baseball logic, not applying the softball rulings if they are different in some way.
Nov. 8, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
Fourth out would be if you appealed a runner at first base out for not tagging up say with bases loaded. He is called out and he is the third out. The team must stay on the field and appeal the runner on third base and have him be called out for same reason he would become the third out and no run would be recorded. Otherwise if the runner at first was the third out the run would count where the play is not a force out.
Nov. 8, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
157 posts
Another scenerio
Runner on second with 2 outs
Batter hits what appears to be a double
runner on second scores but misses 3rd base
running sliding into second gets tagged out for 3rd out
defense appeals the runner that was on second for missing 3rd base. That appeal would be a fourth out appeal to nullify the run
Nov. 8, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
Absolutely! Boy I love these posts....
Nov. 8, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Here's one: Man on second 1 out. Batter hits a grounder up the middle. The pitcher tries to field it but misses. The ball hits the runner going from second to third. What's the call?
Nov. 8, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
157 posts
Well since the pitcher did not touch the ball
The ball would be dead the runner called out and the batter would be awarded a hit and placed on 1st base

You now have two outs with a runner on first.

If the pitcher had touched it and no other defensive player had a chance to make an out then the ball would remain alive unless the runner intentionally made contact with the ball

Stick you have to come up with something harder than that.

Lets say the runner at second was still on the bag at second when the ball contacted him
now what is the ruling
Nov. 8, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
157 posts
Ok it appears that stick is an umpire or player with a lot of rule knowledge

Give me an answer to this one

Runner on third batter hits a line drive toward third, the runner jumps into foul ball territory however the ball hits the base making it a fair ball then bounces over and hits the runner standing in foul area.

whats the call

the runner got hit by a fair ball but he is standing in foul ground?
Nov. 8, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Garocket I am a USSSA umpire!! I also play 50 major plus with OKI.
Your answer is partially right. This is strictly a judgement call. If the umpire deems the pitcher made a legitimate attempt to field the ball it's a live ball--meaning it passed thru a fielder. Or as you imply it would be live if it touched the pitcher first before hitting the runner. If the ball was hit so hard the pitcher could not make an attempt to field it then the runner would be out--again this is strictly umpire judgement.
Your first question I would answer live ball.
Your second question answer is I would have the runner at third out unless the third-baseman tried to make a play if he was playing in front the bag.
Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken!!
Nov. 8, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
157 posts
In ASA and others if the pitcher does not touch it the runner would be out.

The runner at third would be out 99% of the time cause there are not many 3rd basemen crazey enough to play in front of third LOL
Nov. 8, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
I would be curious how the rule is to be interpreted "past the infielder"? Does it mean it has to be further in the field than the fielder is standing? Or that it is past them, they have no chance to make the play?
Nov. 8, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
Did the ball strike the runner in foul territory, or fair territory. Even if the runner is standing on the base, this makes a huge difference.
Nov. 8, 2013
paul0784
Men's 60
130 posts
If a runner is running between second and third and gets hit with a batted ball not touched by the pitcher is called out and the existing runners would return to the bases they held before the play. In most cases the pitcher is not considered a fielder unless he touches the ball then all bets are off.
Nov. 9, 2013
Omar Khayyam
999 posts
stick8's interpretation is probably fairer. Here is a real situation from last season. I am pitching and there's a man on second. An easy two-bouncer comes at me on my right side. Somehow my brain freezes--I not only don't field the ball, I don't even touch it as it bounces over my glove. The guy on second assumed I would field it and didn't want to be thrown out at third, so he is holding near the bag. When I miss it, he takes off.

In this real situation, by the time the ball reaches him it is going so slowly a turtle could jump over it and he is one of the batters that made my middle infielder play deep on the grass. (I guess I could claim my pitch fooled him!) Had it somehow hit him, I'm hoping the ump calls it a live ball since I misplayed it, not an out because I did not get a glove on it.

This is one of those plays that makes me occasionally wonder if I should still be pitching and fielding so close! :-) Nah! Most pitchers are crazy anyway about standing 50 feet from a Miken-struck hot ball (we use the Baden Fire Ball in NCSSA tournaments).
Nov. 9, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Garocket after consulting with some others I'm going to correct myself in your second scenario. I won't call anything-live ball. I overlooked the runner was in foul territory--a baserunner cannot be out if a batted ball hits that runner standing in foul territory--regardless if it carroms off ther base or not.
Another situation: bases loaded, no outs. For whatever reason the batter in the box is batting out of order. This batter hits a grounder to third. Third baseman steps on third for 1, throws to second for 2, throw to first is late--safe. Next batter comes up the defense appeals the team batted out of order.
What is the call?
Nov. 9, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
cal50 those are great questions. It's actually passing thru a fielder. What this means is in the umpires judgement--that being the key--if said fielder made what the ump deems an attempt to make a play on the ball and missed it--it could be thru the 5 hole or hopped over--went under his glove on either side of the fielder. This leads in to your second question--the answer is yes. Your third question most times applies to pitchers. Let's say I'm pitching, your batting and there's a runner on second. You hit a beebee by me where I don't have time to react (undoubtedly using the GSC bat!!) and that ball hits the runner going from second to third the ump should call a dead ball-that runner is out and your on first base.
Nov. 9, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Paul your partially right but I digress only in a situation when the batter hits a beebee where it shoots by the pitcher before he can even react. If that ball struck a baserunner going to third I would call that runner out.
If you read the scenario Omar posted he is 100% correct in his analysis. The pitcher is always considered a fielder and in his scenario tried to make a play on the ball.
Keep in mind what I post is USSSA rules. Other associations including senior ball may differ.
Nov. 9, 2013
cal50
Men's 50
284 posts
Thanks for the answer Stick. Really sorry to hear about your short stop.
Nov. 9, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Appreciate it Dave. As many of us that knew and played with & against Soup all thru the years, we are literally stunned speechless. Not only did we lose a great player we lost a great man and for me personally a great friend.
Nov. 9, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
A good way to determine if a ball has passed a fielder.

Use the "string theory". Imagine all the infielders are tied to a string that goes all around the infield. Ball goes past imaginary string, it is past an infielder.
Nov. 10, 2013
curty
Men's 60
105 posts
love these: new scenario: first inning, bases loaded, batter hits homerun. Score keeper then approaches umpire noting that batter is not in the line up, however he did play defense in the top of the inning.This happened in the finals @ a World Tourney. Player had been in every game (7) on this Sunday.
Nov. 10, 2013
curty
Men's 60
105 posts
another bases loaded situation: batted ball hits runner ON third base, in the knee area. He is unable to move to due to injury. third baseman picks ball up, tags runner on the ground, steps on base then throws to second. What's the call?
Nov. 10, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Good question curty. Presuming there are no outs I have the injured runner at third out on a force, the runner going from second to third out on a force. So far I have two outs.
What happened on the throw at second!!
Nov. 10, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
Why would the scorekeeper be telling the umpire about a batting out of order? That's the coaches job.

If they replaced someone in the field, what's the big deal if everyone plays the field anyway? I would look at as an un-announced substitute.
Nov. 10, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
It doesn't matter if a batted ball hits runner while they are standing on third base. It matters where the ball struck the runner. Was it part of the body in foul, or fair territory.

Runner gets struck by batted ball in fair territory. The ball is dead immediately, and all runners forced to advance move up one base.

Just saying.
Nov. 10, 2013
Wayne 37
203 posts
It would be nice if the website here would post a copy of the rules somehow.......perhaps in PDF form...........;0
Nov. 11, 2013
curty
Men's 60
105 posts
Wayne- the batter was not listed on the line up card. Not as a starter or sub. On field ruling was- illegal player- batter out, all runners return. After a very long and heated discussion, as the other team insisted it should be a forfeit!! The decision was that the batter could not continue in the game. I believe he should have been placed last in the order ( clerical mistake) and charged with batting out of order because he played defense. Second scenario was called a triple play as the throw to second beat the runner.
Nov. 11, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
157 posts
Curly on the play above when runner gets hit with ball while he is on the bag at third with bases loaded
It would be a dead ball and all runners would move up one base the batter would be credited with a hit and the runner that was on third would eventually score once he could get up and advance toward home
Nov. 11, 2013
Paul P
Men's 65
44 posts
In Ft Myers, batter/runner hits single, rounds first, stops, returns to bag. First Baseman comes over to make small talk, standing between runner and the next base. Ball comes in from the outfield and trickles by everybody, rolling harmlessly past the pitcher. Runner tries to take off for 2nd, collides with first baseman, and then subsequently gets thrown out at 2nd base. Ruling on the field is, and I quote from the field umpire: "He (the first baseman)has a right to be there." This, in a one-run game. Ouch!
Nov. 11, 2013
Paul P
Men's 65
44 posts
Ok one last one: Ball hit down the right field line. The homeplate umpire's view is blocked by a rather large first baseman. What's the call, fair or foul? Note: The field umpire was positioned behind the 2nd base bag and had no view.

I was the on-deck batter and saw the ball landing clearly in the middle of the foul line. The umpire admitted he couldn't see the ball land, but looked for a cloud of chalk and seeing none, called it foul. (The foul line was painted, so chalk was not in evidence!!!)
Nov. 11, 2013
Garocket
Men's 55
157 posts
Paul in the 1st one that is obstruction , the rule says a runner can never be ruled out between the bases that he was obstructed between. If the umpire thinks he could have made second without the obstruction then he would be placed on 2nd otherwise he would be put back on 1st.

In the second one, once the umpire calls a foul ball that is what we have to live with, not always right but that would be a judgement call however bad the judgement is.

Not like calling it foul when it hits the foul pole, that would be a rule interpertation. a good umpire would have took two or three quick steps to get the 1st baseman out of line of vison.
Nov. 11, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Paul P in I'd have to see it but by your description I have obstruction on the firstbaseman--runner gets second. Since that first baseman didn't have possession of the ball, wasn't in the act of receiving a thrown ball, wasn't in the act of fielding a ball and the play was live he does not have the right to impede a baserunner from legally running the bases.
Your second one is just a judgement call.
Nov. 11, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Curty your line up card scenario is an interesting one and happens more often than you think. USSSA rules state that if he's unannounced or not in the book and: takes a position in the batters box, takes a position in the field or runs for someone he is considered in the game and thus no penalty. In effect, he would be a substitute.
ASA, NSA, ISA and Senior Softball may have different rules on this.
Nov. 11, 2013
Paul P
Men's 65
44 posts
Garocket and Stick, thanx for the input, the obstruction non-call was a bit painful, as the umpire's explanation was "He (the first baseman) has a right to be there." Ive been around long enough to know better. Perhaps he didnt see the MLB World Series!!

On the foul/fair ball, the explanation I received was "Its a foul ball until I see it fair, and since I didnt see it fair, its a foul ball." Kind of like what came first the chicken or the egg!!

Wasn't much of an argument in either case!!
Nov. 12, 2013
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Stick8-we had that exact scenario in worlds this year. Steve Imlay got up to bat third as usual and after a pitch the opposing scorekeeper came up and pointed out he was not in the lineup. Everyone knows Steve as a Hall of Fame player, but the guy that made out the lineup just forgot to write him in. As a matter of fact he was not listed anywhere on the card. Steve was called out and removed from the game-IN WORLDS! The coach who forgot to write him in was------------wait for it--------------Steve Imlay himself!!!!! One of the ultimate senior moments!!
Nov. 12, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Paul P keep in mind obstruction does not have to be intentional.
Nov. 12, 2013
stick8
1299 posts
Webbie that's unbelievable!! I'm sure you guys gave Steve some (you know what) for that. That sounds funny now but I doubt it was at the time
If that was a USSSA rules game he would be ok--he'd be considered a sub going in--as long as he's on the roster that is required to be on-line. (USSSA qualifiers, NIT's and national tournaments require all teams to have an on-line roster before playing).
In SSUSA if your not listed in the line up card as a player or a sub you cannot play in that game. I think ASA has that rule too.
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