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Discussion: Battle of the Borders

Posted Discussion
July 27, 2010
hoovedog
Men's 50
71 posts
Battle of the Borders
Usa lost because of the Home Run. No one could get a base hit!

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5408139
July 27, 2010
lemons
Men's 65
302 posts
Behind 30-29 with runners on 1st and 3rd and no outs. Next two guys hit HR's for outs and last hitter grounds out to the pitcher. Anything but a fly ball since the balls were flying out of the park.
July 27, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Home run limits is such a dumb way to play the game.
July 27, 2010
Corky
Men's 55
446 posts
After watching the U-trip final four a few years ago, I like the HR limits........instead of home run derby it makes them play D and hit to opposite field in order to stay in the park,since everyone in the line up can hitem at will. Just my opinion and you know what they're like. "Keep Playin"
July 27, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Implement reasaonable bats and balls and the HR derby does not exist. And this way guys won't have to artifically alter their swings.

I enjoyed watching Howard's and County Sports in the 60s and 70s, would not have so much with HR limits. All those guys could hit 'em too, but the equipment (yea, I know the technology was different) kept things in check to enough of a degree.

Point is we are insisting on changing the game in many ways when a simple limitation on equipment would handle most everything.
July 27, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Jim Rome is hilariously making fun of the HR limits. Yes he goes over the top on things, but his points are very well taken.
July 27, 2010
titanhd
Men's 50
331 posts
hoovedog.bottom of 6 two men on 2 outs with a HR to hit.USA down by 3. Garris pops up to shortstop.Ballgame!


ASA Bats and Balls looked like a good combination too. "Those that can will hit them" without "special equipment"
July 27, 2010
hoovedog
Men's 50
71 posts
But you know, Every Senior Major + Team I've ever seen, can Hit em out when they want,, and Base Hit at will. That USA coach shoud have had a 800 or 900 base hitter on the bench for that situation instead of 15 home run hitters. And what if.. Rusty Bumgardner,used a U-2???
July 27, 2010
gott2play
Men's 55
144 posts
Dirty,
Your statement, "Implement reasaonable bats and balls and the HR derby does not exist" as you suggest would not have changed a thing in this particular game. These are big dudes (the USA 1B was 6'6" and 275lbs) and some of the best power hitters in softball. I'm just saying that even with "normal" equipment, 300' fences is nothing for these guys
July 27, 2010
truhitter
25 posts
When they hit it sounded like Tiger hitting a golf ball.So what kind of ball were thay using???
July 28, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
gott2, I understand that. But given that why the need for anything 'stronger' than ASA bats? I would hope that is all they were using.
July 28, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1976 posts
Back when the 'Hot Balls' came into play I was playing with a team out of Lubbock known as Fluid Engineering or Shallow Waterbeds or a couple other names. We were nationally competitive with anybody. There were no HR limits. 40 runs was not uncommon. One of our most memorable games run-wise was vs. Black Walnut, Missouri in a tourney near Dallas, in Garland. USSSA. Dudley Copeland in RC made a diving catch for the second out in the 5th, and I made another diving catch in LC to end the inning preserving the run rule victory. Preserving, you say? Fifth inning---final score was 57-42. Was anybody out of the game??? Absolutely not. The point is that a lot of runs are going to be scored in our game by the top teams in any case. When two top teams meet-well, we've ridden this horse before. We know it could be 50-37 or the like and you make the plays when you can defensively. But, how ridiculous to have a homerun limit in International play. By instituting the limits, they are acknowledging that the game has again become as unbalanced in favor of the hitters as it was during the era of the 'hot ball' and they feel the need to limit what players can do offensively. Dumbing Down or Cooling the Insanity?? However you phrase it, the game itself is crying for it by creating an atmosphere where, at EVERY LEVEL, they are limiting the game. They outlawed the hot balls and the game survived just fine. What is the next evolution for our game?
July 28, 2010
boston
299 posts
The way I see it open up the Hr's to unlimited and play on baseball fields. these guys hit everything 350 plus anyway. was there anyone out there under 200 lbs? avg ht was what 6'3" wt. 230.
July 29, 2010
Webbie25
Men's 60
1976 posts
Boston-I agree with the baseball field idea for the kids because they still have legs to get there and arms to throw it far enough to get it back to the infield, but for us it makes the outfield too big to cover. The amount of outfield to cover goes up exponentially as you add distance. We would be playing so far back that every hit is a double, and most burns are going to be 4 bases.
July 29, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
The softball used in that game is the same one that most of you senior are complaining about that stinks. It is the .52/275 ball. After watching that game I really don't see how any of you can blame the ball.
July 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Home Run limits invite pitchers
getting hit.
There's just no way around it.
Where were the 2 balls going
in the USA game
when home runs were outs?
To the pitcher, up the middle.
Kevin mentioned that the big guys
in the old days, never had to hit the middle because all they were supposed
to do was "take it out" regardless
of the situation.
A HR was never bad.
Well that's what we do in NorCal
and did in SPA last weekend with HR's as singles after an egualizer and we used hot balls with senior bats and
as per usual, had a blast and
no one got hurt.
July 29, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Big difference between then and now, most home runs now are because of technology, back then the real home run hitters hit them and all they wanted. You need to sit down with Jerry Connor some day and learn what softball was and was suposed to be. Now it is tennis on a softball field.
let me hit it here, oh let me hit it here.
July 29, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
i also saw a couple of those go oppo.guess that pretty much puts to rest hr hitters always pull the ball.

guess the 52-275 ball is not that bad,speak on that,disbelieves.
July 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
It's my understanding, Kevin and Robert,
that the ball used in that contest,
from Don Cooper of Combat
was a Dudley 52 x 300 ball
which is not a 52 x 275 ball
like the one many seniors have complained about.
Seems somebody thinks hotter is better
besides me and the majority of seniors
who still love to play our game.
July 29, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Also, guys.
How representative of softball or senior softball are the best players in the world, anyway.
These guys can hit rocks, socks
and clocks 350 feet.
The might represent a fraction
of the top one percent of all players
hitting a ball well
and that not be a ball
that I or Robert or John or Gary
can hit well.
We want it to be fun guys, remember?
We're entitled and need to have fun
when we play or why bother investing
time, energy and money in it
or anything like it.
Baseball can be made into a game
where only Big Poppie, Jack Cust,
Pujols, Josh Hamilton and Prince
Fielder can hit home runs but
tons of other smaller players
can, too.
And guys get hit and hurt with that ball, too.
Uh oh.
Maybe I just started a movement
to dumb down the balls in MLB.
Robert and E4?
What do you think?
July 29, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
No need to dumb down anything in MLB now that the steroid issue is gone. All we need do is look at the batting averages and homeruns being hit, both back where they should be.
If I were getting paid to play I too would want the hottest equipment available. But I'm not, I pay to play, therefore I should have a say about what equipment we use. Maybe someday..........
July 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And watch what will happen, E.
More runs means more player/fan fun
and higher revenues, across the board.
The bat/ball combo will get dialed up.
Every bat in baseball would be considered an altered bat by softball
standards.
They're shaved, boned, modified
in many ways to maximize their efficiency.
They're always looking for new wood
and combinations of wood that are hotter
than what's being used. (maple)
And it's common knowledge
baseball has dialed up and down
the compression/core ratio of the balls
as it has seen fit for maximum results
that is, revenue.
Remember well, baseball, somewhat like softball, is a business.

Torres, the lead off guy for SF
hit a ball well over 400 feet the other day.
How could a little, lead off guy
do something like that???
Why did the AL go to a DH and why has it stuck?
Because offense and hitting are what make the game exciting and fun
and defense is what wins them.
Same in baseball and softball.
And when baseballs hit bones
they break, don't they.
July 30, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
The dudley .52/300 and the trump .52/275 are the same core. They are marked differently because there is no real spec yet from ASA so they are marking theres 300 to make you think it is better. You must believe.
July 30, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
No need to dumb the balls down in MLB, they are swinging bats made of the same material since 1895.
July 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Countless players in MLB
get broken bones from either hit
or thrown balls just like the condition
that was cited by some, to date,
in senior ball
that makes the game, for some,
unnecessarily unsafe.
One would think that to protect the huge salaries paid/investments in
guys like Pedroya
of the Red Sox, baseball would go
to a ball that penetrated less
protecting the players and
its franchise
and that only the
"true home run hitters"
could hit out, of course
to ensure the integrity of the game.
I don't think MLB is interested
especially if it meant compromising
the offensive production that is
KEY to the fun, excitement and
revenue that is generated by playing with a "live" bat/ball combo.
And again,
the adrenaline that pitchers need/use
and the batters need/use
and the fielders need/use to protect themselves from getting hit
increases both defensive
and offensive reactions
raising the level of play
across the board.

July 30, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
First off I may have had a stroke but I am not that dumb. You are talking about professional paid athletes and trying to make a comparison to a senior softball player? WOW I thought I knew what being Delusional was this past saturday, guess not.

Second a baseball has a cor of .50-.52 and a compression of 250 to 275, the reason it is more dangerous than the new .52/275 softball is the weight to impact size. Both balls traveling at the same speed hitting an head form the softball will have a much less impact.

Now back to the pros. They have much greater reflexes yet they are still getting hit with balls that are traveling slower than balls hit by many of the senior players. (does this make sense?) The reason it is not a big factor in the MLB first off a guy hitting 300 is one of the best on the team. A senior hitting 300 is coaching 1st base. Second a ball coming at you at the speeds they are in the MLB with the movement there is now way you can hit a ball where you want to with any real control. Yet players are still getting hit by hit balls, AND they are traveling slower than a ball off of a senior bat.(make sense yet?) Then put a senior pitcher closer to home plate than the MLB mound and it really doesn't make sense.

Just think, they are using they same spec ball from 1940 bats made of the same material since 1895 and they PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES get hurt, yet we want to increase the speed of the bats and they balls when we turn 50? Now 40? Make sense Yet?
July 30, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
Did anyone notice the mass rush by fans to leave any of the stadiums where No Hitters or any of the Perfect games were thrown this year? Or any year for that matter.
As I recall the only time fans leave in mass is during a blow out, when one taem or the other has scored too many runs.
Of course this is MLB and never happens in Senior Softball. What happens in Senior Softball is called boredom when one team or both are caught up in a HR Derby.
July 30, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4364 posts
einstein,
You pretty much said it your self in the bats and cheaters thread:
The ball fundamentally doesn't change
the skill level/capability of any player,
set of players or group of players,
John.
It doesn't and it can't.
There is and always will be differences
in levels of players and the liveliness
of the ball has little or nothing
to do with them.
Therefore, A good player should be able to hit any ball (O) or catch any ball (D) we play with.
That ball may not give you the Hr you so much want to get, but if your that good you should still produce, I would think.

Trumpball is correct on the BB v softball and injury, the size (9" vs 12") smaller will do more damage to a persons body hit in same spot. It's more concentrated.
I don't like the balls these days either but both teams are using it, so why the worry, that is even up with that piece of equipment.
I'd prefer a Blue Dot, but they are used in only a few tournaments.
Why everyone mixed sports to compare stuff is off the wall imo. You are talking apples and oranges or fruit cocktail.
It's still a game, you just won't hit as far overall I'd think.
July 30, 2010
roadrunner
Men's 65
27 posts
who won the battle of the borders
July 30, 2010
SSUSA Staff
1220 posts
Team USA lost to Canada 30-29 in the second-annual Border Battle
July 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Referring to me as
Delusional and dumb, eh?
Sounds like your feeling better, already, Kev.
And here I thought we just disagreed.

Injury is injury.
Why doesn't baseball move to a ball
that would be less lively and be less dangerous ensuring that only true
home run hitters would be able to hit
home runs and preventing injuries
to players which directly affect
the profitability of their franchises?
You know why?
No one would come to the park
or watch any of the games,
that's why and they know it
and wouldn't think of entertaining
such counter productive balderdash.

I haven't heard more sideways thinking
and rationales for everything to avoid
key issues since I worked trying to rehab con-artist adolescents
a couple of lifetimes ago.

Robert and Kevin said that ball
used in a the Canada/USA event
was a 52 x 275 ball and it wasn't,
was it.
It was a different and hotter ball
by spec wasn't it, showing the tendency
of players to use and want to use better/hotter equipment in order to be satisfied and have a good time.
The bat/ball combo must be lively enough to enjoy the game
and if it isn't they won't come.
That's the point.

Now try to refute this.
The majority of seniors endorse
and support good 44x375 or better balls
and 1.21 senior bats.
It's easily evidenced and some can't seem to say anything positive about
that and us.
Some say they won't play our game
because it's too dangerous, gratuitous, false and gaudy and they couldn't be wronger if they said BP had nothing to do with the Gulf Oil Spill.

I've fielded, felt, pitched and hit with my bat balls at 275 x 52 and they didn't perform satisfyingly enough for
almost everyone
I talked with who tried them.
(Terry Henessey MTC/Old A event)
That's a fact that can't be refuted.
Maybe some other group of players
might accept them for use.
I don't think so but I know the seniors
I play with and most of them
will opt to play with balls that
hit, play and feel better.

Scotty,
You know as well as I that hitting with better bats/balls is more fun.
We've talked about it many times.

July 30, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin,
regarding your claim that baseball
has used the same material for wooden
bats since the 1890's,
check this out from Wikipedia:
"Most wooden bats are made from ash. Other natural materials used include maple tree wood, hickory wood, and bamboo. Hickory has fallen into disfavor because it is much heavier than other woods, while maple bats have become more popular recently. This ascent in popularity followed the introduction of the first major league sanctioned maple baseball bat in 1997, by craftsman Sam Holman, founder of Sam Bat. The first player to use it was Joe Carter of the Toronto Blue Jays.[6] Barry Bonds used the bats the season that he broke Mark McGwire's single-season home run record in 2001 and Hank Aaron's career home run record in 2007.[6] Recently, Major League Baseball has debated whether maple bats are safe to use, due to the tendency for them to shatter.
So maple and Bamboo are relatively
recent upgrades in the wooden bat
business."
I found that recently some bats
are being made of birch also.

So there is the drive to come up
with better, more flexible
and resilient materials
all the time just like in the making
of softball bats, it would seem.
July 31, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Once again you speak of something you know nothing about.
all wood bat have been tested and proven to have the same BBS. That is batted ball speed.
The reason maple has become the bat of choice of many of the MLB players is because it has the ability of being dried to make the bat several ounces lighter than the same cut out of ash or birch. Hickory is heaveier than them all. So lighter bat allowed the players to increase their bat speeds.
3 years ago MLB saw that the dried bats were shattering causing injuries on the field and immediatly took ACTION TO MAKE THE GAME SAFEER. They came up with the ink dye test which tests the bats so the manufactures do not over dry the wood. If you look closely at players at the plate on the handle above the hands you can notice a diamond shape. (more noticeable on black handled bats) That is where the bats have been tested for the ink dye test. The reason you don't see bamboo bats in the MLB it is a reed not a wood and they do flex more and give the hitter an advantage, Mlb has outlawed them.
July 31, 2010
E4/E6
Men's 60
850 posts
The inital reason other woods became popular over the ash bat was due to a shortage of ash due to disease and diminished availablity from the ash forests of Maine and Connecticut. This goes back to the early 60's.

There is at this time a proposal on Bud Seligs desk to ban the Maple bat for safety reasons. As usual the Players Union opposes this ban.
July 31, 2010
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
Trumpball's comments on einstein's lack of knowledge on balls and wooden bats seem to place einstein's opinions on medical issues on dubious grounds as well. See his assertions that all pitchers and all infielders are assisted in reflex time by adrenaline, so they have no problem fielding 100mph rockets hit at them by the techno-super bats.
July 31, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4364 posts
einstein,
I agree with that, but if we are given the other balls to use and or told to use lessor bats, both teams will be on equal ground for the most part. I can still have fun playing that way too.
The unknown factor is with the bats, and the altering we know is going on.
July 31, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
mmm guess they were hitting a 52-275 ball.oh by the way the one i have used in tourney's here is a worth ball and not a trump,so no agenda going on here.thanks for the help kevin,the hole just gets getting deeper and deeper for him.
July 31, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Maple is a relatively new
improvement sanctioned only in 1997
by MlB.
Maple was sought and developed
to render the bat/ball combo
more lively and it worked.
This is not refuted by anything our
zealous naysayers and n'er do wells
have to say.

Kevin and Robert were wrong
about the ball used in the Canada/
USA game.
They said it was a 275 by 52 ball
and that clearly isn't true.

E4, Omar, Kevin and Maddog,
the usual suspects
of those who find fault with us
who love to play and enjoy our game,
the lively bat/ball game
which has been endorsed and adopted
to date by virtually every senior association.
Who''s out of step, here
and who's off target, hmmmmmmm?
It's becoming more obvious by the second
isn't it?
Keep up the good work, boys.
Aug. 1, 2010
brian warner
Men's 55
52 posts
Kevin you made s statement about the paid player in MLB. Now are we to believe the players we watched in the border war weren't paid players? Perhaps instead of complaining about these bats and balls that have turned this game into a tennis match. You should take a stand and stop selling these missile launchers of death to us dumb unknowning sheep
Aug. 1, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
joey boy,and you know that the ball wasn't a 52-275 how.i'll believe an industry person first, over someone who just cries about how they won't be able to hit a ball 400' and doesn't care whether we will be killing someone.
what part of the maple bat being a danger and in the possibility of being banned did you not understand(its been discussed by MLB for a couple yrs now to ban it),the bat shatters and poses a danger to all fielders.
why is it when faced with the facts you automatically call everyone a liar.
brian they get paid not just for softball but for reping the company they play for(aka going to trade shows,softball camps and functions,etc).also anaconda sports doesn't make the bat,they do only sell it and if they don't someone else will,so in your theory they shouldn't or any company for that matter not sell them.you will make one company real happy if that happens, as there will be someone who will make money off it.mfg'ers should be the one you should go after if that is your feeling.
Aug. 2, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Brian,
I have been fighting for a safer gamefor many years. That is why Joe cries about my post's so much.
Aug. 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin.
Glad your back and feeling better.
100 years!
I believe the argument we're having
about the liveliness of the bat/ball
combo for seniors if not all softball
serves our community well.
Informed players make better decisions.
And it's we, the players
who will decide with what, with whom, if and when we play.
Power to the players.
Aug. 2, 2010
60 going on 40
Men's 60
25 posts
These guys have a one up rule in all divisions. www.socalssa.com No one is ever punished for hitting a Home Run. Food for thought Gentlemen.
Aug. 2, 2010
brian warner
Men's 55
52 posts
Kevin I'm not trying to take sides here. But it seems to me that you you keep telling us how bad these bats and balls are. Yet you keep selling them. I don't think the .52 core ball will make it any safer out there. I was in Florida this spring. And was asked to hit with these balls. What we found was the ball had to be hit just right to get it fly out. Plus they knuckled thru the infield really bad. And it wasn't just me. We had 8 guys hitting. And it seemed to be a common problem.
Aug. 2, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Robert Dog.
You were wrong.
Again the ball used in the Combat
Canada/USA game was a 300 x 52 Dudley
and not the 275 x 52 you said it was.
And, are you saying that only the manufacturer of a nuclear bomb
should be held accountable
and not the seller of it because
everyone's got the right
to make a profit?
I really don't understand your thinking.
Can you explain?

And are you saying that the softball players at the Canada/USA event
are not really pros because they get paid for representing the company
that sponsors them in addition
to playing in exhibitions
and that means they can't be compared
with MLB players in some meaningful way?

Robert?



Aug. 3, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Brian you hit the nail right on the head. You have to hit the ball just right to hit a home run. That is what it used to take to hit hit one when home run hitters were a valued asset to a team and there was no home run rules.
Now almost anyone can hit them and a base hitter is a more valued player, is that a bad thing? I made a living hitting base hits playingball but I also could hit home runs when needed.
By your statement it seems as thouh you think you should be rewarded with a hime run for a bad swing.
PS: The knucling is much improved and we have also learned that the softer the bat the more it tends to knuckle. The new bat the Rusty hit the bomb with is a very stiff ASA bat designed to hit a .52 ball. Thet wont hit .44 nearly as well.

joe say all you want the balls had a tested compression of 265 to 284 prior to the game at 72 degrees.
Aug. 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Kevin,
I don't truly see how you can say everyone can hit them when we played with very good balls and bats at SPA and the best,
most competitive 55 major plus team
in the country that weekend
hit nine, that's 9, meaning ONLY 9
home runs in 5 games
and it wasn't for lack of trying
and no one got close to being hurt
'cause HRs were never outs.
Again, the championship against a terrific Robert's Construction team
was 10 to 8 and that was a seven inning game.
That is dramatic evidence of my point
and it's typical of my experience.
which it seems to run counter to the game that you see and describe
is going on.
That's no crime by either one of us
but I think we don't really agree about what's going on and/or should be going on in senior softball,
if not all of softball.
I see and say that
the great majority of us
like our game and will continue to invest in it using 1.21 senior bats and good 44 x 375 balls like the ones you made, those MCT balls we'll be using in LVSSA later this month.
I've been playing senior ball for 13 years now and the movement away from using a lively bat/ball combo regardless of the forces/interests involved is threatening
to kill our game.
We've righted the ship in NorCal
and hopefully with SPA and SSUSA
and I'm beginning to think
we're gonna be all right.

Lively and safer, makes some sense.
Lively or safer,
doesn't and never will.
Lively bats and balls, forever.

Aug. 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
So, let's get this straight.
New 300 x 52 Dudley balls
were hit well by Rusty
in the Battle of the Border game
using a new, stiffer bat.
Can you tell us more about the new stiffer bat and
what's wrong with the old balls
and bats--that you
and others have made
and/or sold to us like
MCTs, Ultra 2s, 510s,
Macenkos, Grey and Red Combats
that lots of us have invested in and
still want to use?
Aug. 3, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
The bat that Rusty used was 400+comp and the balls were 265to 284 comp. Senior bats broken in are in the mid 100's.
Aug. 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
kevin why even bother posting the info,joey boy will not read it.he has one thing in his head and that is all he will see.i have used the 52-275 ball(the worth hot dot) for utrip out here in dallas and really find it good enough to use,so i'm not pushing one mfg'er over another.the classic+ ball to me(no matter who makes it)is the answer to the cheaters,and not a hot bat/ball combo.that combo will only encourage more to alter their bats.the argument that we can't have fun unless we are hitting a ball 400' is real lame,just goes to show how insecure these players are.
Aug. 3, 2010
boston
299 posts
In the USSSA league I play in with the youngstrs we use a 40/300 Classic M. Myself and a fellow senior that plays can take them out once we adjust to the pitch. We don't get to use senior bats either. So it's not the balls it's putting in the time in the cage and weight room.
Aug. 3, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
boston that ball(classic M 40-300) will change according to the temp's outside.here in dallas we have used that ball in cool temps and it flies,then the temps get to 85 and above that ball will really soften up and nothing happens.oct-mar great, apr-sept,not so great.
i agree with putting in the time to better yourself as i try and do that.i have weights i use,but getting a BP session in is hard as i live out in the country and am 30 miles from the parks i play at(we,seniors, do a bp session every sunday from mar to oct).i do go to the local high school(5 miles away)and do some tee work,when school is not in session.but yes you do need to put in the work and not depend on a hot bat/ball combo for your fun.
Aug. 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin, how do you know the comp limits
for every ball used.
Did someone or you measure them beforehand?
Did you or someone random check the balls, perhaps?
And a hitter of Rusty's magnitude,
like Denny Crine or Jeff Hall
could hit balls 400 feet with chop sticks--that doesn't correlate to regular hitters and players like the most of us, Kev, in that
what might work for Rusty
would never work for me.
I've had the good fortune to team with guys like John Kramer, Mike Burbank,
Don Clatterbaugh, Rick Perez and these guys could hit balls outa sight.
I had the good fortune to hit
with Ken Van Bogart, Bogie (Hi Bogie)
who can hit bombs with anyone in the country and believe me
it didn't matter if I swung any of their bats
or mine, they'd always hit
50 to 100 or more feet more than me.
With a stock Ultra 2,
Mike Burbank hit a ball well over 500 feet in Vegas a couple of years ago
that a number of people can evidence.
So, what Rusty of any of these guys
use doesn't necessarily translate
to what my or most senior capability
would be, is my take on it.
What do you think, Kev?
Aug. 3, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Yes thet were tested 1 hour prior to the game. Rusty should hit home runs like that he has worked at it in the weight room and on the field, you just want to buy a bat and ball and hit them like him against guys that don't nearly have the reflexes enough to protect themselves.
Aug. 3, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin.
We played an NCSSA tournament
in Pleasanton this weekend.
First day we hit good balls
and we had a blast.
Second day, not so good balls
and EVERYONE was talking about how bad
the experience of the weekend
had become.
By the middle of Monday
after the weekend
there were so many complaints about the balls having 'wrecked folks' weekends',
the tournamant director promised
good Baden balls
for the rest of the year
else he'd have risked being
"bad balled" as have some TDs
in our area.
Also, NCSSA will refuse
to sanction their
tournaments if they don't comply
with our standards.

That's decisive action and similar
to what will happen if any association
goes with balls that aren't lively enough to keep the fun in our game.
It's really that simple.
We're baby boomers.
Educated, multi-cultured,
empowered and have some money
to spend on what we want and need to do.

I don't believe any but 2 of the players
I saw all weekend could hit a ball within 100 feet of Rusty.
What value would it be to the rest of us
to use a bat/ball combo Rusty is comfortable with but none of us are?
Not very much value to senior ball
I would say.

We really like playing with good bats
and balls, Kev.
Really, we do and any movement away
from what we truly like, deserve
and are willing to invest in
will not be endorsed by the overwhelming majority of us.
You can quote me on it and this, too,
"Any ball that doesn't respond well
to being hit dead center
is counter intuitive to natural eye-hand coordination and will provide
a frustrating and dissatisfying
experience in time for most to all players.

If the bat/ball combo
is not satisfyingly fun enough
there will be a major
exodus from any senior ball association
for sure and probably open ball to a large degree
by a great number of players
who will look elsewhere for their investments
in time and money.

Aug. 4, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
I hear you Joe after all that mumbo jumbo and rederick, you want to mis-hit home runs and buy performance. WE GOT IT.
Aug. 4, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Wood density
WHITE ASH .65-.85
MAPLE .6-.75
look for yourself it is the weight of the wood not that it performs better. It allows the player to swing the bat faster BECAUSE IT IS LIGHTER. (did I say it slow enough for you?)
Aug. 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
I am starting to think there is money to be made by starting a senior basketball circuit where I set up trampolines in the lane so old guys with little pride could now dunk and then brag to the grandkids and feel really good about their "accomplishments".

Anyone interested? :)
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
The fact is, Kevin that it, maple,
IS better and an improvement on the previous generation just like what happens in any competitive marketplace.
You think you're talking to only me,
Kev, but your talking to the majority
of senior player when you talk to me.
We like lively bats and balls, Kev
and you're not recognizing who we are or making many new friends,.
You've said you don't like our game
or think much of us who like and play our game enough times that we get it.
You and I disagree loud and clear.
Better not come to LVSSA or you'll get your mind blown with all the guys
having a blast ironically hitting
Trump balls all over the park.
Lively bats and balls are essential
to the well being of senior softball.
You either agree or you don't.
We live in a society now
where self interest is so prominent
and well defined
that people can and will argue
their solutions to the death
rather than letting go.
I don't buy we need to change our game
in ways that will neuter it and us
because someone or small group of acolytes say so.
It doesn't make enough sense when you look it all carefully and
it will never work for seniors,
I do believe.
Aug. 4, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
I get it you want hot balls and bats, I even posted that. The arguement is that you once again posted false statements and made claims to them as facts. You posted that maple was a hotter material than ash, meaning it performs at a higher BBS. Well that is absolutly false, it is lighter so weaker players can increase there bat speed which allows them to hit longer and faster balls.

A-rod swings an ash bat, as does Jeter, Posada and hundreds of other great players.

Most of the top hitters in the game swing ash bats becuse they don't like to break there gamers, it's the middle of the road guys that tend to swing more maple that ash. When you watch games look for the best hitter from each team you can tell the ash from the heavy grain. Maple sales are huge because there are way more middle of the road players than stars.
Aug. 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
So if I understand this right we have the choice of being "neutered" without lively bats and balls or being on Viagra with special bats and softballs resembling Titleists?
Aug. 4, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
True ability= neutered
Viagra= super stud
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin.
Why can't you admit that Maple
is effectively an improvement on baseball bat only sanctioned in 1997
by Major league baseball.
Is it because you'd have to admit
you were wrong?
Sam or someone found a way to use
the specific properties of maple
in a way that makes baseball bats
more effective for a lot of hitters.
It shows that MLB has evolved
and incorporated improvements
by using a different wood and
it's drying capability
just like softball has done
with bats/balls
to maximize fun and performance.
There are many ways to keep the game
reasonably safe for seniors
without "messing with"
the intrinsic joy associated with hitting a ball
hard, fast, far and well.
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kevin a question.
What does the size have to do with
the effective performance of a ball?
Will the same core/compression ball
fly faster, farther and better
if it is smaller and how much smaller
can make a meaningful difference?
Aug. 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, I am just curious. Would you have a better time winning 3-2 or losing 30-29?
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
It's more fun for most to all players
I think Gary to hit better and more.
For me it's clear--
the 30-29 game.
It showed my team had lead in it's pencil
and one in a slug fest where the 3-2 game
could have been because both offenses
stunk or were asleep.
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
And Gary,
a 3-2 game that's not because 2 guys
are throwing no hitters
has gotta be the most boring thing
in the world for players and fans
to experience.
Think about it.
Aug. 4, 2010
taits
Men's 65
4364 posts
einstein,
For the core comp answer you may want to read this on golf balls, as it relates to this.
http://www.purelygolf.com/E/Balls.htm
Those balls are only from 80-110 comp. Cores, there are four different types.
Aug. 4, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
If I am wrong Joe so is MLB because they are the ones that inacted the new rules to change the way the bats are now being made.
Aug. 4, 2010
mad dog
Men's 60
3932 posts
Kevin why even post,like i have said before ,joey boy is in his own delusional world and refuses to see the facts.
dirty 3-2 game for me,means there is pitching,defense in the game,nothing more exciting than that.how many times do you see fans leaving a close(aka no-hitters)game,than the hi scoring blow out.hell they aren't even hanging around to watch a-rod try and hit his 600th.
Aug. 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, you might have misunderstood. The question was about WINNING 3-2 versus LOSING 30-29.
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
I did misunderstand, I'm sorry.
I'd rather win in the short run
but if 3-2 was the norm, G,
it wouldn't be fun enough to want to continue to play and invest in.
Very good question, G, now that I got it.
Aug. 4, 2010
Dirty
Men's 50
1375 posts
Joe, no problem.
Aug. 4, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Maybe both defenses were makig great plays.
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Kev,
There's a difference when,
as I'm sure you know,
no one's hitting like when a team
is flat AND a great defensive game.
When the ball lacks pace
the game, hardball or softball
becomes deadly with boredom
and generates little to no
enthusiasm and interest.
Aug. 4, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Joe some of the hardest balls I've ever hit have been caught.
Aug. 4, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hitting a ball hard that gets caught
is still a positive thing in hardball
or softball.
It's a good sign for O and a bad sign
for D.
But not hitting or being able to hit a ball dead center and have it go fast
or far is DEADLY, will kill any game
and you can quote me on this one.
Aug. 4, 2010
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
I've been in both types of games that Dirty is talking about. The blowout, where everyone is hitting and a 5-run inning is assumed, often with only 1 out (usually a 5 inning game with time limits), and a tight battle where you are on your toes every at bat.

As a player, give me the low-scoring every time. Every play, every catch, every pitch, every at bat has importance. A fielding error, a mental mistake, a stupid swing, could mean the game. Both sides are exhilarated, win or lose, in such a game.

In the blowout games, you're just tired and glad you outlasted the other team. Not much adrenaline flowing there.

Doesn't have to be 3-2; could be 5-6, 8-9, anything that indicates the teams are equally matched and scrambling for every run and every out. But double digit games are seldom as exciting because there are too many 5-run innings and things often get sloppy on both sides. Guys are just slugging away and hoping to outscore the other team.

Not surprising that einstein jumped first for the high-scoring game. And as mad dog points out, fans leave those games because they get boring. They never leave a potential no-hitter.

Aug. 4, 2010
tattooball
618 posts
Usually when a guy makes a great defensive diving catch, wouldn't you know it they usually are the ones to lead off an inning with a double.
Aug. 4, 2010
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
One of the most memorable pictures of the super-great Willie Mays was not of him hitting another home run, but of running full speed and catching a ball over his shoulder!
Aug. 4, 2010
Omar Khayyam
994 posts
One of the most memorable pictures of the super-great Willie Mays was not of him hitting another home run, but of running full speed and catching a ball over his shoulder!
Aug. 4, 2010
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Getting back to Senior Softball....

Regarding the 52/275 ball or a comparable ball. It's obvious by the feed back to NCSSA this weekend that teams will not spend time/money on an event using this ball.

Regardless of "hitting it right", or "cheap home runs", or whatever, it's a dog in these parts.

If you're promoting this ball just have the "nuts" to advertise it prior to teams entering your tournaments and let the chips fall where they may.
Aug. 5, 2010
einstein
Men's 50
3114 posts
Hey Smokey.
You MTCs guys got us, again
in Pleasanton.
Way to go, Timmy, Mike, Glen,
Skee and the rest.
Nice game given the conditions.
Those balls we used on Sunday
were painful to experience
and rained on everyone's parade.
It's been rectified for all tournaments
there, I'm happy to say.
See you at Cal Cup and/or Manteca.
Aug. 5, 2010
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Joe,

We'll be at both events......see ya there!
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