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Online now: 4 members: Jesse Torres, Purplehaze@55, TABLE SETTER 11, tammym37; 124 anonymousDiscussion: Battle of the Borders
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| July 27, 2010 hoovedog Men's 50 73 posts | Battle of the Borders Usa lost because of the Home Run. No one could get a base hit! http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5408139 |
| July 27, 2010 lemons Men's 65 323 posts | Behind 30-29 with runners on 1st and 3rd and no outs. Next two guys hit HR's for outs and last hitter grounds out to the pitcher. Anything but a fly ball since the balls were flying out of the park. |
| July 27, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Home run limits is such a dumb way to play the game. |
| July 27, 2010 Corky Men's 55 451 posts | After watching the U-trip final four a few years ago, I like the HR limits........instead of home run derby it makes them play D and hit to opposite field in order to stay in the park,since everyone in the line up can hitem at will. Just my opinion and you know what they're like. "Keep Playin" |
| July 27, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Implement reasaonable bats and balls and the HR derby does not exist. And this way guys won't have to artifically alter their swings. I enjoyed watching Howard's and County Sports in the 60s and 70s, would not have so much with HR limits. All those guys could hit 'em too, but the equipment (yea, I know the technology was different) kept things in check to enough of a degree. Point is we are insisting on changing the game in many ways when a simple limitation on equipment would handle most everything. |
| July 27, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Jim Rome is hilariously making fun of the HR limits. Yes he goes over the top on things, but his points are very well taken. |
| July 27, 2010 titanhd Men's 60 639 posts | hoovedog.bottom of 6 two men on 2 outs with a HR to hit.USA down by 3. Garris pops up to shortstop.Ballgame! ASA Bats and Balls looked like a good combination too. "Those that can will hit them" without "special equipment" |
| July 27, 2010 hoovedog Men's 50 73 posts | But you know, Every Senior Major + Team I've ever seen, can Hit em out when they want,, and Base Hit at will. That USA coach shoud have had a 800 or 900 base hitter on the bench for that situation instead of 15 home run hitters. And what if.. Rusty Bumgardner,used a U-2??? |
| July 27, 2010 gott2play Men's 60 212 posts | Dirty, Your statement, "Implement reasaonable bats and balls and the HR derby does not exist" as you suggest would not have changed a thing in this particular game. These are big dudes (the USA 1B was 6'6" and 275lbs) and some of the best power hitters in softball. I'm just saying that even with "normal" equipment, 300' fences is nothing for these guys |
| July 27, 2010 truhitter 24 posts | When they hit it sounded like Tiger hitting a golf ball.So what kind of ball were thay using??? |
| July 28, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | gott2, I understand that. But given that why the need for anything 'stronger' than ASA bats? I would hope that is all they were using. |
| July 28, 2010 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Back when the 'Hot Balls' came into play I was playing with a team out of Lubbock known as Fluid Engineering or Shallow Waterbeds or a couple other names. We were nationally competitive with anybody. There were no HR limits. 40 runs was not uncommon. One of our most memorable games run-wise was vs. Black Walnut, Missouri in a tourney near Dallas, in Garland. USSSA. Dudley Copeland in RC made a diving catch for the second out in the 5th, and I made another diving catch in LC to end the inning preserving the run rule victory. Preserving, you say? Fifth inning---final score was 57-42. Was anybody out of the game??? Absolutely not. The point is that a lot of runs are going to be scored in our game by the top teams in any case. When two top teams meet-well, we've ridden this horse before. We know it could be 50-37 or the like and you make the plays when you can defensively. But, how ridiculous to have a homerun limit in International play. By instituting the limits, they are acknowledging that the game has again become as unbalanced in favor of the hitters as it was during the era of the 'hot ball' and they feel the need to limit what players can do offensively. Dumbing Down or Cooling the Insanity?? However you phrase it, the game itself is crying for it by creating an atmosphere where, at EVERY LEVEL, they are limiting the game. They outlawed the hot balls and the game survived just fine. What is the next evolution for our game? |
| July 28, 2010 boston Men's 60 355 posts | The way I see it open up the Hr's to unlimited and play on baseball fields. these guys hit everything 350 plus anyway. was there anyone out there under 200 lbs? avg ht was what 6'3" wt. 230. |
| July 29, 2010 Webbie25 Men's 70 2414 posts | Boston-I agree with the baseball field idea for the kids because they still have legs to get there and arms to throw it far enough to get it back to the infield, but for us it makes the outfield too big to cover. The amount of outfield to cover goes up exponentially as you add distance. We would be playing so far back that every hit is a double, and most burns are going to be 4 bases. |
| July 29, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | The softball used in that game is the same one that most of you senior are complaining about that stinks. It is the .52/275 ball. After watching that game I really don't see how any of you can blame the ball. |
| July 29, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Home Run limits invite pitchers getting hit. There's just no way around it. Where were the 2 balls going in the USA game when home runs were outs? To the pitcher, up the middle. Kevin mentioned that the big guys in the old days, never had to hit the middle because all they were supposed to do was "take it out" regardless of the situation. A HR was never bad. Well that's what we do in NorCal and did in SPA last weekend with HR's as singles after an egualizer and we used hot balls with senior bats and as per usual, had a blast and no one got hurt. |
| July 29, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Big difference between then and now, most home runs now are because of technology, back then the real home run hitters hit them and all they wanted. You need to sit down with Jerry Connor some day and learn what softball was and was suposed to be. Now it is tennis on a softball field. let me hit it here, oh let me hit it here. |
| July 29, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | i also saw a couple of those go oppo.guess that pretty much puts to rest hr hitters always pull the ball. guess the 52-275 ball is not that bad,speak on that,disbelieves. |
| July 29, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | It's my understanding, Kevin and Robert, that the ball used in that contest, from Don Cooper of Combat was a Dudley 52 x 300 ball which is not a 52 x 275 ball like the one many seniors have complained about. Seems somebody thinks hotter is better besides me and the majority of seniors who still love to play our game. |
| July 29, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Also, guys. How representative of softball or senior softball are the best players in the world, anyway. These guys can hit rocks, socks and clocks 350 feet. The might represent a fraction of the top one percent of all players hitting a ball well and that not be a ball that I or Robert or John or Gary can hit well. We want it to be fun guys, remember? We're entitled and need to have fun when we play or why bother investing time, energy and money in it or anything like it. Baseball can be made into a game where only Big Poppie, Jack Cust, Pujols, Josh Hamilton and Prince Fielder can hit home runs but tons of other smaller players can, too. And guys get hit and hurt with that ball, too. Uh oh. Maybe I just started a movement to dumb down the balls in MLB. Robert and E4? What do you think? |
| July 29, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | No need to dumb down anything in MLB now that the steroid issue is gone. All we need do is look at the batting averages and homeruns being hit, both back where they should be. If I were getting paid to play I too would want the hottest equipment available. But I'm not, I pay to play, therefore I should have a say about what equipment we use. Maybe someday.......... |
| July 30, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | And watch what will happen, E. More runs means more player/fan fun and higher revenues, across the board. The bat/ball combo will get dialed up. Every bat in baseball would be considered an altered bat by softball standards. They're shaved, boned, modified in many ways to maximize their efficiency. They're always looking for new wood and combinations of wood that are hotter than what's being used. (maple) And it's common knowledge baseball has dialed up and down the compression/core ratio of the balls as it has seen fit for maximum results that is, revenue. Remember well, baseball, somewhat like softball, is a business. Torres, the lead off guy for SF hit a ball well over 400 feet the other day. How could a little, lead off guy do something like that??? Why did the AL go to a DH and why has it stuck? Because offense and hitting are what make the game exciting and fun and defense is what wins them. Same in baseball and softball. And when baseballs hit bones they break, don't they. |
| July 30, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | The dudley .52/300 and the trump .52/275 are the same core. They are marked differently because there is no real spec yet from ASA so they are marking theres 300 to make you think it is better. You must believe. |
| July 30, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | No need to dumb the balls down in MLB, they are swinging bats made of the same material since 1895. |
| July 30, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Countless players in MLB get broken bones from either hit or thrown balls just like the condition that was cited by some, to date, in senior ball that makes the game, for some, unnecessarily unsafe. One would think that to protect the huge salaries paid/investments in guys like Pedroya of the Red Sox, baseball would go to a ball that penetrated less protecting the players and its franchise and that only the "true home run hitters" could hit out, of course to ensure the integrity of the game. I don't think MLB is interested especially if it meant compromising the offensive production that is KEY to the fun, excitement and revenue that is generated by playing with a "live" bat/ball combo. And again, the adrenaline that pitchers need/use and the batters need/use and the fielders need/use to protect themselves from getting hit increases both defensive and offensive reactions raising the level of play across the board. |
| July 30, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | First off I may have had a stroke but I am not that dumb. You are talking about professional paid athletes and trying to make a comparison to a senior softball player? WOW I thought I knew what being Delusional was this past saturday, guess not. Second a baseball has a cor of .50-.52 and a compression of 250 to 275, the reason it is more dangerous than the new .52/275 softball is the weight to impact size. Both balls traveling at the same speed hitting an head form the softball will have a much less impact. Now back to the pros. They have much greater reflexes yet they are still getting hit with balls that are traveling slower than balls hit by many of the senior players. (does this make sense?) The reason it is not a big factor in the MLB first off a guy hitting 300 is one of the best on the team. A senior hitting 300 is coaching 1st base. Second a ball coming at you at the speeds they are in the MLB with the movement there is now way you can hit a ball where you want to with any real control. Yet players are still getting hit by hit balls, AND they are traveling slower than a ball off of a senior bat.(make sense yet?) Then put a senior pitcher closer to home plate than the MLB mound and it really doesn't make sense. Just think, they are using they same spec ball from 1940 bats made of the same material since 1895 and they PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES get hurt, yet we want to increase the speed of the bats and they balls when we turn 50? Now 40? Make sense Yet? |
| July 30, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | Did anyone notice the mass rush by fans to leave any of the stadiums where No Hitters or any of the Perfect games were thrown this year? Or any year for that matter. As I recall the only time fans leave in mass is during a blow out, when one taem or the other has scored too many runs. Of course this is MLB and never happens in Senior Softball. What happens in Senior Softball is called boredom when one team or both are caught up in a HR Derby. |
| July 30, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | einstein, You pretty much said it your self in the bats and cheaters thread: The ball fundamentally doesn't change the skill level/capability of any player, set of players or group of players, John. It doesn't and it can't. There is and always will be differences in levels of players and the liveliness of the ball has little or nothing to do with them. Therefore, A good player should be able to hit any ball (O) or catch any ball (D) we play with. That ball may not give you the Hr you so much want to get, but if your that good you should still produce, I would think. Trumpball is correct on the BB v softball and injury, the size (9" vs 12") smaller will do more damage to a persons body hit in same spot. It's more concentrated. I don't like the balls these days either but both teams are using it, so why the worry, that is even up with that piece of equipment. I'd prefer a Blue Dot, but they are used in only a few tournaments. Why everyone mixed sports to compare stuff is off the wall imo. You are talking apples and oranges or fruit cocktail. It's still a game, you just won't hit as far overall I'd think. |
| July 30, 2010 roadrunner Men's 65 27 posts | who won the battle of the borders |
| July 30, 2010 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | Team USA lost to Canada 30-29 in the second-annual Border Battle |
| July 30, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Referring to me as Delusional and dumb, eh? Sounds like your feeling better, already, Kev. And here I thought we just disagreed. Injury is injury. Why doesn't baseball move to a ball that would be less lively and be less dangerous ensuring that only true home run hitters would be able to hit home runs and preventing injuries to players which directly affect the profitability of their franchises? You know why? No one would come to the park or watch any of the games, that's why and they know it and wouldn't think of entertaining such counter productive balderdash. I haven't heard more sideways thinking and rationales for everything to avoid key issues since I worked trying to rehab con-artist adolescents a couple of lifetimes ago. Robert and Kevin said that ball used in a the Canada/USA event was a 52 x 275 ball and it wasn't, was it. It was a different and hotter ball by spec wasn't it, showing the tendency of players to use and want to use better/hotter equipment in order to be satisfied and have a good time. The bat/ball combo must be lively enough to enjoy the game and if it isn't they won't come. That's the point. Now try to refute this. The majority of seniors endorse and support good 44x375 or better balls and 1.21 senior bats. It's easily evidenced and some can't seem to say anything positive about that and us. Some say they won't play our game because it's too dangerous, gratuitous, false and gaudy and they couldn't be wronger if they said BP had nothing to do with the Gulf Oil Spill. I've fielded, felt, pitched and hit with my bat balls at 275 x 52 and they didn't perform satisfyingly enough for almost everyone I talked with who tried them. (Terry Henessey MTC/Old A event) That's a fact that can't be refuted. Maybe some other group of players might accept them for use. I don't think so but I know the seniors I play with and most of them will opt to play with balls that hit, play and feel better. Scotty, You know as well as I that hitting with better bats/balls is more fun. We've talked about it many times. |
| July 30, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Kevin, regarding your claim that baseball has used the same material for wooden bats since the 1890's, check this out from Wikipedia: "Most wooden bats are made from ash. Other natural materials used include maple tree wood, hickory wood, and bamboo. Hickory has fallen into disfavor because it is much heavier than other woods, while maple bats have become more popular recently. This ascent in popularity followed the introduction of the first major league sanctioned maple baseball bat in 1997, by craftsman Sam Holman, founder of Sam Bat. The first player to use it was Joe Carter of the Toronto Blue Jays.[6] Barry Bonds used the bats the season that he broke Mark McGwire's single-season home run record in 2001 and Hank Aaron's career home run record in 2007.[6] Recently, Major League Baseball has debated whether maple bats are safe to use, due to the tendency for them to shatter. So maple and Bamboo are relatively recent upgrades in the wooden bat business." I found that recently some bats are being made of birch also. So there is the drive to come up with better, more flexible and resilient materials all the time just like in the making of softball bats, it would seem. |
| July 31, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Once again you speak of something you know nothing about. all wood bat have been tested and proven to have the same BBS. That is batted ball speed. The reason maple has become the bat of choice of many of the MLB players is because it has the ability of being dried to make the bat several ounces lighter than the same cut out of ash or birch. Hickory is heaveier than them all. So lighter bat allowed the players to increase their bat speeds. 3 years ago MLB saw that the dried bats were shattering causing injuries on the field and immediatly took ACTION TO MAKE THE GAME SAFEER. They came up with the ink dye test which tests the bats so the manufactures do not over dry the wood. If you look closely at players at the plate on the handle above the hands you can notice a diamond shape. (more noticeable on black handled bats) That is where the bats have been tested for the ink dye test. The reason you don't see bamboo bats in the MLB it is a reed not a wood and they do flex more and give the hitter an advantage, Mlb has outlawed them. |
| July 31, 2010 E4/E6 Men's 70 873 posts | The inital reason other woods became popular over the ash bat was due to a shortage of ash due to disease and diminished availablity from the ash forests of Maine and Connecticut. This goes back to the early 60's. There is at this time a proposal on Bud Seligs desk to ban the Maple bat for safety reasons. As usual the Players Union opposes this ban. |
| July 31, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | Trumpball's comments on einstein's lack of knowledge on balls and wooden bats seem to place einstein's opinions on medical issues on dubious grounds as well. See his assertions that all pitchers and all infielders are assisted in reflex time by adrenaline, so they have no problem fielding 100mph rockets hit at them by the techno-super bats. |
| July 31, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | einstein, I agree with that, but if we are given the other balls to use and or told to use lessor bats, both teams will be on equal ground for the most part. I can still have fun playing that way too. The unknown factor is with the bats, and the altering we know is going on. |
| July 31, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | mmm guess they were hitting a 52-275 ball.oh by the way the one i have used in tourney's here is a worth ball and not a trump,so no agenda going on here.thanks for the help kevin,the hole just gets getting deeper and deeper for him. |
| July 31, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Maple is a relatively new improvement sanctioned only in 1997 by MlB. Maple was sought and developed to render the bat/ball combo more lively and it worked. This is not refuted by anything our zealous naysayers and n'er do wells have to say. Kevin and Robert were wrong about the ball used in the Canada/ USA game. They said it was a 275 by 52 ball and that clearly isn't true. E4, Omar, Kevin and Maddog, the usual suspects of those who find fault with us who love to play and enjoy our game, the lively bat/ball game which has been endorsed and adopted to date by virtually every senior association. Who''s out of step, here and who's off target, hmmmmmmm? It's becoming more obvious by the second isn't it? Keep up the good work, boys. |
| Aug. 1, 2010 brian warner Men's 55 54 posts | Kevin you made s statement about the paid player in MLB. Now are we to believe the players we watched in the border war weren't paid players? Perhaps instead of complaining about these bats and balls that have turned this game into a tennis match. You should take a stand and stop selling these missile launchers of death to us dumb unknowning sheep |
| Aug. 1, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | joey boy,and you know that the ball wasn't a 52-275 how.i'll believe an industry person first, over someone who just cries about how they won't be able to hit a ball 400' and doesn't care whether we will be killing someone. what part of the maple bat being a danger and in the possibility of being banned did you not understand(its been discussed by MLB for a couple yrs now to ban it),the bat shatters and poses a danger to all fielders. why is it when faced with the facts you automatically call everyone a liar. brian they get paid not just for softball but for reping the company they play for(aka going to trade shows,softball camps and functions,etc).also anaconda sports doesn't make the bat,they do only sell it and if they don't someone else will,so in your theory they shouldn't or any company for that matter not sell them.you will make one company real happy if that happens, as there will be someone who will make money off it.mfg'ers should be the one you should go after if that is your feeling. |
| Aug. 2, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Brian, I have been fighting for a safer gamefor many years. That is why Joe cries about my post's so much. |
| Aug. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Kevin. Glad your back and feeling better. 100 years! I believe the argument we're having about the liveliness of the bat/ball combo for seniors if not all softball serves our community well. Informed players make better decisions. And it's we, the players who will decide with what, with whom, if and when we play. Power to the players. |
| Aug. 2, 2010 60 going on 40 Men's 60 25 posts | These guys have a one up rule in all divisions. www.socalssa.com No one is ever punished for hitting a Home Run. Food for thought Gentlemen. |
| Aug. 2, 2010 brian warner Men's 55 54 posts | Kevin I'm not trying to take sides here. But it seems to me that you you keep telling us how bad these bats and balls are. Yet you keep selling them. I don't think the .52 core ball will make it any safer out there. I was in Florida this spring. And was asked to hit with these balls. What we found was the ball had to be hit just right to get it fly out. Plus they knuckled thru the infield really bad. And it wasn't just me. We had 8 guys hitting. And it seemed to be a common problem. |
| Aug. 2, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Robert Dog. You were wrong. Again the ball used in the Combat Canada/USA game was a 300 x 52 Dudley and not the 275 x 52 you said it was. And, are you saying that only the manufacturer of a nuclear bomb should be held accountable and not the seller of it because everyone's got the right to make a profit? I really don't understand your thinking. Can you explain? And are you saying that the softball players at the Canada/USA event are not really pros because they get paid for representing the company that sponsors them in addition to playing in exhibitions and that means they can't be compared with MLB players in some meaningful way? Robert? |
| Aug. 3, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Brian you hit the nail right on the head. You have to hit the ball just right to hit a home run. That is what it used to take to hit hit one when home run hitters were a valued asset to a team and there was no home run rules. Now almost anyone can hit them and a base hitter is a more valued player, is that a bad thing? I made a living hitting base hits playingball but I also could hit home runs when needed. By your statement it seems as thouh you think you should be rewarded with a hime run for a bad swing. PS: The knucling is much improved and we have also learned that the softer the bat the more it tends to knuckle. The new bat the Rusty hit the bomb with is a very stiff ASA bat designed to hit a .52 ball. Thet wont hit .44 nearly as well. joe say all you want the balls had a tested compression of 265 to 284 prior to the game at 72 degrees. |
| Aug. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Kevin, I don't truly see how you can say everyone can hit them when we played with very good balls and bats at SPA and the best, most competitive 55 major plus team in the country that weekend hit nine, that's 9, meaning ONLY 9 home runs in 5 games and it wasn't for lack of trying and no one got close to being hurt 'cause HRs were never outs. Again, the championship against a terrific Robert's Construction team was 10 to 8 and that was a seven inning game. That is dramatic evidence of my point and it's typical of my experience. which it seems to run counter to the game that you see and describe is going on. That's no crime by either one of us but I think we don't really agree about what's going on and/or should be going on in senior softball, if not all of softball. I see and say that the great majority of us like our game and will continue to invest in it using 1.21 senior bats and good 44 x 375 balls like the ones you made, those MCT balls we'll be using in LVSSA later this month. I've been playing senior ball for 13 years now and the movement away from using a lively bat/ball combo regardless of the forces/interests involved is threatening to kill our game. We've righted the ship in NorCal and hopefully with SPA and SSUSA and I'm beginning to think we're gonna be all right. Lively and safer, makes some sense. Lively or safer, doesn't and never will. Lively bats and balls, forever. |
| Aug. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | So, let's get this straight. New 300 x 52 Dudley balls were hit well by Rusty in the Battle of the Border game using a new, stiffer bat. Can you tell us more about the new stiffer bat and what's wrong with the old balls and bats--that you and others have made and/or sold to us like MCTs, Ultra 2s, 510s, Macenkos, Grey and Red Combats that lots of us have invested in and still want to use? |
| Aug. 3, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | The bat that Rusty used was 400+comp and the balls were 265to 284 comp. Senior bats broken in are in the mid 100's. |
| Aug. 3, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | kevin why even bother posting the info,joey boy will not read it.he has one thing in his head and that is all he will see.i have used the 52-275 ball(the worth hot dot) for utrip out here in dallas and really find it good enough to use,so i'm not pushing one mfg'er over another.the classic+ ball to me(no matter who makes it)is the answer to the cheaters,and not a hot bat/ball combo.that combo will only encourage more to alter their bats.the argument that we can't have fun unless we are hitting a ball 400' is real lame,just goes to show how insecure these players are. |
| Aug. 3, 2010 boston Men's 60 355 posts | In the USSSA league I play in with the youngstrs we use a 40/300 Classic M. Myself and a fellow senior that plays can take them out once we adjust to the pitch. We don't get to use senior bats either. So it's not the balls it's putting in the time in the cage and weight room. |
| Aug. 3, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | boston that ball(classic M 40-300) will change according to the temp's outside.here in dallas we have used that ball in cool temps and it flies,then the temps get to 85 and above that ball will really soften up and nothing happens.oct-mar great, apr-sept,not so great. i agree with putting in the time to better yourself as i try and do that.i have weights i use,but getting a BP session in is hard as i live out in the country and am 30 miles from the parks i play at(we,seniors, do a bp session every sunday from mar to oct).i do go to the local high school(5 miles away)and do some tee work,when school is not in session.but yes you do need to put in the work and not depend on a hot bat/ball combo for your fun. |
| Aug. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Kevin, how do you know the comp limits for every ball used. Did someone or you measure them beforehand? Did you or someone random check the balls, perhaps? And a hitter of Rusty's magnitude, like Denny Crine or Jeff Hall could hit balls 400 feet with chop sticks--that doesn't correlate to regular hitters and players like the most of us, Kev, in that what might work for Rusty would never work for me. I've had the good fortune to team with guys like John Kramer, Mike Burbank, Don Clatterbaugh, Rick Perez and these guys could hit balls outa sight. I had the good fortune to hit with Ken Van Bogart, Bogie (Hi Bogie) who can hit bombs with anyone in the country and believe me it didn't matter if I swung any of their bats or mine, they'd always hit 50 to 100 or more feet more than me. With a stock Ultra 2, Mike Burbank hit a ball well over 500 feet in Vegas a couple of years ago that a number of people can evidence. So, what Rusty of any of these guys use doesn't necessarily translate to what my or most senior capability would be, is my take on it. What do you think, Kev? |
| Aug. 3, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Yes thet were tested 1 hour prior to the game. Rusty should hit home runs like that he has worked at it in the weight room and on the field, you just want to buy a bat and ball and hit them like him against guys that don't nearly have the reflexes enough to protect themselves. |
| Aug. 3, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Kevin. We played an NCSSA tournament in Pleasanton this weekend. First day we hit good balls and we had a blast. Second day, not so good balls and EVERYONE was talking about how bad the experience of the weekend had become. By the middle of Monday after the weekend there were so many complaints about the balls having 'wrecked folks' weekends', the tournamant director promised good Baden balls for the rest of the year else he'd have risked being "bad balled" as have some TDs in our area. Also, NCSSA will refuse to sanction their tournaments if they don't comply with our standards. That's decisive action and similar to what will happen if any association goes with balls that aren't lively enough to keep the fun in our game. It's really that simple. We're baby boomers. Educated, multi-cultured, empowered and have some money to spend on what we want and need to do. I don't believe any but 2 of the players I saw all weekend could hit a ball within 100 feet of Rusty. What value would it be to the rest of us to use a bat/ball combo Rusty is comfortable with but none of us are? Not very much value to senior ball I would say. We really like playing with good bats and balls, Kev. Really, we do and any movement away from what we truly like, deserve and are willing to invest in will not be endorsed by the overwhelming majority of us. You can quote me on it and this, too, "Any ball that doesn't respond well to being hit dead center is counter intuitive to natural eye-hand coordination and will provide a frustrating and dissatisfying experience in time for most to all players. If the bat/ball combo is not satisfyingly fun enough there will be a major exodus from any senior ball association for sure and probably open ball to a large degree by a great number of players who will look elsewhere for their investments in time and money. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | I hear you Joe after all that mumbo jumbo and rederick, you want to mis-hit home runs and buy performance. WE GOT IT. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Wood density WHITE ASH .65-.85 MAPLE .6-.75 look for yourself it is the weight of the wood not that it performs better. It allows the player to swing the bat faster BECAUSE IT IS LIGHTER. (did I say it slow enough for you?) |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | I am starting to think there is money to be made by starting a senior basketball circuit where I set up trampolines in the lane so old guys with little pride could now dunk and then brag to the grandkids and feel really good about their "accomplishments". Anyone interested? :) |
| Aug. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | The fact is, Kevin that it, maple, IS better and an improvement on the previous generation just like what happens in any competitive marketplace. You think you're talking to only me, Kev, but your talking to the majority of senior player when you talk to me. We like lively bats and balls, Kev and you're not recognizing who we are or making many new friends,. You've said you don't like our game or think much of us who like and play our game enough times that we get it. You and I disagree loud and clear. Better not come to LVSSA or you'll get your mind blown with all the guys having a blast ironically hitting Trump balls all over the park. Lively bats and balls are essential to the well being of senior softball. You either agree or you don't. We live in a society now where self interest is so prominent and well defined that people can and will argue their solutions to the death rather than letting go. I don't buy we need to change our game in ways that will neuter it and us because someone or small group of acolytes say so. It doesn't make enough sense when you look it all carefully and it will never work for seniors, I do believe. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | I get it you want hot balls and bats, I even posted that. The arguement is that you once again posted false statements and made claims to them as facts. You posted that maple was a hotter material than ash, meaning it performs at a higher BBS. Well that is absolutly false, it is lighter so weaker players can increase there bat speed which allows them to hit longer and faster balls. A-rod swings an ash bat, as does Jeter, Posada and hundreds of other great players. Most of the top hitters in the game swing ash bats becuse they don't like to break there gamers, it's the middle of the road guys that tend to swing more maple that ash. When you watch games look for the best hitter from each team you can tell the ash from the heavy grain. Maple sales are huge because there are way more middle of the road players than stars. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | So if I understand this right we have the choice of being "neutered" without lively bats and balls or being on Viagra with special bats and softballs resembling Titleists? |
| Aug. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | True ability= neutered Viagra= super stud |
| Aug. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Kevin. Why can't you admit that Maple is effectively an improvement on baseball bat only sanctioned in 1997 by Major league baseball. Is it because you'd have to admit you were wrong? Sam or someone found a way to use the specific properties of maple in a way that makes baseball bats more effective for a lot of hitters. It shows that MLB has evolved and incorporated improvements by using a different wood and it's drying capability just like softball has done with bats/balls to maximize fun and performance. There are many ways to keep the game reasonably safe for seniors without "messing with" the intrinsic joy associated with hitting a ball hard, fast, far and well. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Kevin a question. What does the size have to do with the effective performance of a ball? Will the same core/compression ball fly faster, farther and better if it is smaller and how much smaller can make a meaningful difference? |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, I am just curious. Would you have a better time winning 3-2 or losing 30-29? |
| Aug. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | It's more fun for most to all players I think Gary to hit better and more. For me it's clear-- the 30-29 game. It showed my team had lead in it's pencil and one in a slug fest where the 3-2 game could have been because both offenses stunk or were asleep. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | And Gary, a 3-2 game that's not because 2 guys are throwing no hitters has gotta be the most boring thing in the world for players and fans to experience. Think about it. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 taits Men's 65 4548 posts | einstein, For the core comp answer you may want to read this on golf balls, as it relates to this. http://www.purelygolf.com/E/Balls.htm Those balls are only from 80-110 comp. Cores, there are four different types. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | If I am wrong Joe so is MLB because they are the ones that inacted the new rules to change the way the bats are now being made. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 mad dog Men's 65 4191 posts | Kevin why even post,like i have said before ,joey boy is in his own delusional world and refuses to see the facts. dirty 3-2 game for me,means there is pitching,defense in the game,nothing more exciting than that.how many times do you see fans leaving a close(aka no-hitters)game,than the hi scoring blow out.hell they aren't even hanging around to watch a-rod try and hit his 600th. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, you might have misunderstood. The question was about WINNING 3-2 versus LOSING 30-29. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | I did misunderstand, I'm sorry. I'd rather win in the short run but if 3-2 was the norm, G, it wouldn't be fun enough to want to continue to play and invest in. Very good question, G, now that I got it. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Dirty Men's 50 1371 posts | Joe, no problem. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Maybe both defenses were makig great plays. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Kev, There's a difference when, as I'm sure you know, no one's hitting like when a team is flat AND a great defensive game. When the ball lacks pace the game, hardball or softball becomes deadly with boredom and generates little to no enthusiasm and interest. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Joe some of the hardest balls I've ever hit have been caught. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hitting a ball hard that gets caught is still a positive thing in hardball or softball. It's a good sign for O and a bad sign for D. But not hitting or being able to hit a ball dead center and have it go fast or far is DEADLY, will kill any game and you can quote me on this one. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | I've been in both types of games that Dirty is talking about. The blowout, where everyone is hitting and a 5-run inning is assumed, often with only 1 out (usually a 5 inning game with time limits), and a tight battle where you are on your toes every at bat. As a player, give me the low-scoring every time. Every play, every catch, every pitch, every at bat has importance. A fielding error, a mental mistake, a stupid swing, could mean the game. Both sides are exhilarated, win or lose, in such a game. In the blowout games, you're just tired and glad you outlasted the other team. Not much adrenaline flowing there. Doesn't have to be 3-2; could be 5-6, 8-9, anything that indicates the teams are equally matched and scrambling for every run and every out. But double digit games are seldom as exciting because there are too many 5-run innings and things often get sloppy on both sides. Guys are just slugging away and hoping to outscore the other team. Not surprising that einstein jumped first for the high-scoring game. And as mad dog points out, fans leave those games because they get boring. They never leave a potential no-hitter. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 tattooball 774 posts | Usually when a guy makes a great defensive diving catch, wouldn't you know it they usually are the ones to lead off an inning with a double. |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | One of the most memorable pictures of the super-great Willie Mays was not of him hitting another home run, but of running full speed and catching a ball over his shoulder! |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Omar Khayyam 1357 posts | One of the most memorable pictures of the super-great Willie Mays was not of him hitting another home run, but of running full speed and catching a ball over his shoulder! |
| Aug. 4, 2010 Smokey20 Men's 55 102 posts | Getting back to Senior Softball.... Regarding the 52/275 ball or a comparable ball. It's obvious by the feed back to NCSSA this weekend that teams will not spend time/money on an event using this ball. Regardless of "hitting it right", or "cheap home runs", or whatever, it's a dog in these parts. If you're promoting this ball just have the "nuts" to advertise it prior to teams entering your tournaments and let the chips fall where they may. |
| Aug. 5, 2010 einstein Men's 50 3112 posts | Hey Smokey. You MTCs guys got us, again in Pleasanton. Way to go, Timmy, Mike, Glen, Skee and the rest. Nice game given the conditions. Those balls we used on Sunday were painful to experience and rained on everyone's parade. It's been rectified for all tournaments there, I'm happy to say. See you at Cal Cup and/or Manteca. |
| Aug. 5, 2010 Smokey20 Men's 55 102 posts | Joe, We'll be at both events......see ya there! |
