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Discussion: new combat centenarian......short

Posted Discussion
April 6, 2012
udaplaya
91 posts
new combat centenarian......short
Hit with my new white combat for the second time today, and although it is does not yet have "Miken pop", it is a very solid bat.

One surprising fact, when we were standing around after BP, one of the guys noticed that the Combat is short by almost a full knob length than all of the other bats we had. I measured it when i got home and it comes in at slightky less than 33.5 inches. So, rather than being called "the white centenarian", it is now referred to as "shorty".

No biggie to me, it still hit well.
April 6, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Using the overlap grip gives you more plate coverage, therefore, no biggie.
April 6, 2012
tattooball
621 posts
Give me a call when you can it is not supposed to be short, they must have cut it wrong.
April 6, 2012
udaplaya
91 posts
Will call you on Monday, Kevin (heading out the door for easter weekend).

No worries, i am fine with the bat, will probably order another one when i call you on Monday.

Have a good easter.
April 6, 2012
Robo2
226 posts
How doe it compare to the Blue or the old yellow?
April 6, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Besides the color, what really changes with these bats that (a) warrants more models being made and (b) these models being purchased at not exactly cheap prices when guys already have at least one that I am assuming they are happy with?

As the kids call it, bat whoring is a strange phenomena to me.
April 6, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Bat whoring............it just feels good.
April 7, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Well, so far I am only allowed to swing one at a time and have managed to avoid the bunkers so I haven't needed a sand bat.
April 7, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
If you travel to a 3 day tournament, 3 or 4 bats is a must. Senior bats have been known to break. You must have back-ups, unless you want to be a poor teammate and ask to use someones bat. I would lend a bat, but only because I have back-ups. As a player, I would feel horrible if I broke a teammates only gamer.
April 7, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I understand all that, though 3 or 4 is a bit excessive.

But the need for that many bats for a weekend is a terrible indictment of the current state of the game.
April 8, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1006 posts
Salio, I am hard on bats as I break a few a year.. I don't know that I need 4 but a back up is a must.... I feel comfortable with three in the bag.
April 8, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
swing....one is for batting practice. Don't want to break a gamer during practice.
April 8, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Salio2k-you are correct-3-4 bats are necessary and not excessive for guys that hit the ball hard. I broke 2 in one day and was just a little out of pocket last tourney.
April 8, 2012
dix47
13 posts
I am looking to buy white combat. Can't find out where. Any help?
I can be reached at dixonconnie@sbcglobal.net
April 9, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Webbie, your stupid sarcasm aside, if you are correct then the game is so fundamentally flawed. But you will never even begin to acknowledge that.

Sorry, but I don't see golfers going through 3 or 4 drivers in a tournament. Or tennis players going through rackets (yes, strings break but they hit the ball SO many more times per tournament than any given bat hits a softball that it would be a ludicrous comparison). Or teams going through 3 or 4 basketballs in a weekend.
April 10, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
I'm totally lost on this one Webbie! My son has bought two bats in the last 3-4 years and only because he wanted to upgrade, not because of breakage. He swings stock bats and can just about guarantee he will take as many or more swings per season as you or I. I would go out on a limb and suggest he hits twice the number most of us do in senior ball. Do you or anyone else think that a 750.00-1000.00 per year is a little much for softball bats or has softball been berry, berry good to us?
April 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
A year? He is alleging he needs 3-4 just for a weekend tournament.

Pricer, apparently your son does not hit the ball as hard as Webbie, hence he is some kind of "punk" who can have one bat last a lifetime.
April 10, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Pricer and Gary............It's pretty obvious that you guys don't go to many tournaments. Hope one of you is going to Vegas at the end of the month. Check out the bat bags, they will have 3-4 bats in them. Also.........there are seniors that hit 2-300 balls in batting practice per week. Those that take the game seriously get in a lot of hitting and fielding even when not in tournaments.
April 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
salio, I have been to tournaments and it doesn't take attending many to see that you are correct. But that doesn't mean that 3-4 are needed, just means old guys like to spend as some strange way of validating themselves as players.

Again, if 3-4 are needed for a weekend that is a terrible indictment of the current state of the game.
April 10, 2012
JT9
Men's 55
36 posts
So what if a guy wants to bring 3-4 bats to a tourney or bring a dozen and hire someone to carry them. Who cares! and why in the hell would you!
April 10, 2012
the wood
1087 posts
This is not a recent development. I had teammates that carried several bats in their canvas and/or vinyl bat bags as long ago as the late 70s. One of them, sometimes called 'The Franchise', used more than one in a game... sometimes 2-3. I carried 1-2 bats back then... a 34', 33 oz Bombat and a shorter barrel 38 oz.
It was/is my opinion that, and as Sal said, that I didn't/don't want our players to use teammates' bats unless it was/is absolutely necessary. I also warn them about the dangers of using gamers in cold weather or with wet/heavy BP balls. Most of our players have 2-4 bats in their bag for these reasons.
When you leave the comforts of your own zip code to play it becomes a problem to find a new bat if you break one.
I play in a single wall senior league and carry 2 bats in my bag. One is for me and one is for teammates that cannot find a Red Line or the like. There are guys on my team that carry more.
I carry 3 senior bats when playing in tournaments. One for BP, one gamer and a 'back up gamer'. If I break a gamer I don't have to borrow someone's bat. They aren't that heavy to carry.
BW
April 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Correct, I don't really care. But this, "3-4 bats are necessary" just should not be true.
April 10, 2012
JT9
Men's 55
36 posts
Maybe it is necessary to them and they find it to be true and you don't...so what!
April 10, 2012
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
jt9,wood...this is coming from someone who doesn't participate in our senior tourney's programs.....wonder if he even carry's his own bat to the league he plays in.....wonder if he has more than 1 bat or even 1......

i carry 4 2-27oz,1-28 oz and 1-29oz.....start off using the 29 and work my way down later into the tourney.....
April 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
pup, not sure about you but for me a half-dozen tourneys was more than enough to learn the lay of the land. Perhaps you are a slower learner.................
April 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
By the way, of course a guy can purchase and carry as many bats as he wants. But if/when "If you travel to a 3 day tournament, 3 or 4 bats is a must Senior bats have been known to break" is true, then something is very wrong with the current state of the game.

If this is true, then you are telling me along with the travel, food, and lodging costs for a tournament another $600 or so is necessary each weekend to cover breakage? If true, no wonder 90+% of the tournaments have 4 team brackets.
April 10, 2012
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
how many bats do you have,answer that question.....
April 10, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Salio, hold on here a second tuff guy. I never once indicated I was Mr. tourney guy! But, I can almost bet that I am more than qualified to ask this question, and maybe more so than you. I did not ask how many bats were needed to be carried during tourney play. Gary asked that question. All I asked was "Do you or anyone else think that a 750.00-1000.00 per year is a little much for softball bats." Also during the season 50 swings a day is not really going over the top, but at 50 swings per day you'd be pushing 350 per week. Most competitive players will get those swings in each week. I try to be level headed when posting, without getting emotional like some folks. But in the future, don't judge someone's talent, integrity or qualifications based on how many tourneys they play. That looks like your indicating your better or are more knowledgeable than me!
April 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
One special, one ASA, one practice.

Pricer, these guys often believe quantity equals quality.
April 10, 2012
JT9
Men's 55
36 posts
The cost of bats has very little if anything to do with the 4 team brackets, far deeper than that.

Senior players know that bats break.....their choice to purchase as many as they want. They buy because they can. Has very little to do with "state of the game"

Silly rules ruined the game but I know why they did it.....not really that hard to figure it out.

A lot of talk about something that isn't going to change anytime soon. Nothing is as it once was!
April 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
It has everything to do with the state of the game. Any game that requires the constant renewal of $600+ of equipment every weekend has a fundamental flaw. Golfers don't replace clubs, or tennis players rackets, or basketball players balls, at anywhere near that rate.

Can't argue with you about the silly rules, but many are a direct result of the increased offense/risk from the bats.
April 10, 2012
stick8
1318 posts
Gary I carry 3 bats to a tournament. One is an older model strictly to take bp before games. The other two are game bats of the same model. If one doesn't seem to work for me or breaks then I use the other one. I also carry a weighted bat to warm up with.
I've seen numerous players flaunting the 5 or 6 bats they carry and broadcast everything about them just to give the impression their some great player. In many cases their just remarkably average players.
April 10, 2012
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
SO HOW MANY BATS DO YOU OWN,19....PLEASE ANSWER THIS FOR US........HOW MANY GO TO A GAME WITH YOU,WHY AVOID ANSWERING........
April 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
stick, that is my point.

sad pup, I think I just did. One special, one ASA, one practice.

Well, I think I have some old Steele's from the early 90s in the rafters of my garage, do those count?
April 10, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Stick, the game has changed a bit, eh? I can see why here in metro Detroit alot of our old teamates and foes have found other things to do with their free time. I had know idea players could go through this kind of money per year in bats.
April 10, 2012
JT9
Men's 55
36 posts
You have a few guys that break bats but not as many as you would think. There is plethora of reasons as to why you have 4 team tourneys and buying bats is way down the list.

Can't argue about the bats....they are silly.
but I get why....not hard to figure out! Again, not something that will change anytime soon.
April 10, 2012
Wes
Men's 65
312 posts
I have an Gray one that's my first choice
I had a 10" end loaded red one, sold it, need to get a new white one
I have a yellow one, not as good as the Gray one
I have four driver in my golf bag why not four bats in my ball bag
Wes
April 10, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
403 posts
Hey Mad Dog, some people could carry a plastic bat and not hurt it if they were hitting rocks, those people do not need nor see a need for more than one bat.

Wes, I now have 0 drivers in my bag and as a result less golf balls go to the woods.

OH, Mad Dog do you still think the black Centerian would be a good bat. Will you be in Plano on the 20th? C
April 10, 2012
stick8
1318 posts
Yes it has Jeff. Now that I ump the mens tourneys what I witness are different attitudes from many of the players. I guess it's just a different generation then ours. As far as bats, that's a big business these days!!
April 10, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Pricer...I re-read my post. I did not say anything that could be misconstrued as "tuff guy". Gary understood and answered accordingly. I have said 3-4 bats in bag, but one does not always break one or two at a tournament. You want them there in case one should break. As far as the cost goes, as others have said, we buy them because we can. I have personally had as many as 20 senior bats at one time. A Bat whore? By any interpretation, YES. I may have used a teammates bat because he wanted me to try it, but I have never had to borrow one. I even have friends that carry two sets of golf clubs in their car. Why? Because they can.
April 10, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
Interestingly nice attack, Gary. You have never seen me hit and you are judging my hitting. Par for the course. Lots of opinions with no backing, as usual. If you would get off your couch and play tournaments you would understand a lot more and not make so many 'off the mark' statements. Your analogies about tennis and golf have no validity at all. Thanks for the laugh!
April 10, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1006 posts
Mark Mark Mark, probably not a bat on the market 19 could break... so all this multible bat stuff is way over his head.. FYI I remember hitting the lighthouses back in the 90s and I could make it a triangle in three swings.. LOL We went thru bats then with the thin walls too..
April 10, 2012
rightrj1
Men's 55
211 posts
Gary,

I bet you have 3 or 4 keyboards in your bag.....Webbie Stop letting this guy suck you in...He knows noting about our sad state of game! Gary it's called FUN!!!!
April 10, 2012
4x4
Men's 65
597 posts
3-4 bats to a tourney is not excesssive. 1-3 gamers - one in reserve of the preferred weight. One BP bat to keep the gamers alive. I've broken 3 bats in a day on the 1st day of a tourney. I do carry different weights for as the tourney progresses, sometimes the 28 does better, sometimes the 30 does better. I will buy a bat rather than take the chance of breaking someone else's gamer.

Bats do break with regularity so it's always a process of rotating from the now broken favorite to the number two bat that has now became the go to bat and it's an ever evolving process keeping gamers at the ready. Some take a short break in to get there - creating the assembly line. Some are hot from the get go but break quickly (Miken Red about 30-60 swings) - a faster assembly line. The more different weights you use the more need be in the assembly line.

It always amazes me to see guys swinging U2's in cold weather BP. But, it's their $$$$$$. It's fun hitting the ball out of sight - but not fun replacing the bats.

April 11, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
rightrj-I just got laughing too hard last night when my WIFE came up and saw Gary did not know what getting 'lit up' was. She hardly knew what softball was when I met her 8 years ago, but she even knew that. I get bigger and bigger laughs from him now as he scrambles. That is fun to read when I need a good laugh.
April 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Mark, where is my "attack" on you? Please point it out.

Sorry, I have tried, but four-team brackets is not my thing.

Adn again, sorry analogies go flying right over your head. Zip! There goes one now. LOL

Nope rightrj, just one bat at a time.

Webbie, we need to consider the source with your wife. After all, she did marry you.
April 11, 2012
rightrj1
Men's 55
211 posts
Webbie I agree this is some funny stuff, but he knows what "lit up" means...That why he doesn't play! Gary leave the wife's alone....You don't want them manning up on you!
April 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Of course I do. And yes I play, just not for hundreds of dollars to play 2 or 3 other teams for a weekend.

Understood, but he brought her up first.
April 11, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Salio, "Pricer and Gary............It's pretty obvious that you guys don't go to many tournaments." I don't think I misread anything here.
April 11, 2012
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
well pricer,19 goes to zero,how many do you go to........if it is less than 5 a year, that is 5 between ya's,and that is not many,just saying......

most of us can get a min of 5 in depending on the area we live in,my team(from texas) usually does approx 10 tourney's a year,and i know the cali guys get that and more with ncssa tourney's to go to...
April 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
sad pup, how many does it take you to get the lay of the land? For some of us, not many. Or are you alleging they have changed/improved in the past two years?
April 11, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
MD, you've got to be kidding me, right? In Michigan, 5 senior tourneys would be considered a summers worth, unless your playing for a well sponsored Major or Major plus team. just to get 5 in we'll have to travel to 3 or more. Our season don't really even start in the midwest until late May or early June. But if your questioning my ability or talent based on the number of tournys I play, then your just a dumb box of rocks. I get a kick out of the folks that now that they are senior age and they have all the time in the world, they're playing ball more now than they ever did when the were in their 20 & 30's. Now they are experts and far better players than the one's that only play 7 or fewer tourney's per year. I think we played 5 or 6 last year at the AAA level. The lowest place of finish was 3rd and that was the ISSA worlds. I as said before, in the future, don't judge someone's talent, integrity or qualifications based on how many tourneys they play. That looks like your indicating your better or are more knowledgeable than me!
April 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Remember, to some quantity is synonomous with quality.
April 11, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4395 posts
Gary,
Ok stud baller, By your own words: ... I have played in tournaments since approx. 1978....
At about 55 ish now that would make you roughly 24 back then or maybe younger. So why did you change from the wooden and CU31 or 7046 series bats that were about the only ones made back then, you upgraded as it were... WHY?
Having a U-2 in your bad just makes you like us, wanting the best you can use.
No big deal or shouldn't be.
You really are loosing creditability on here.
April 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Scott, I did because they were legal.

But keep in mind that back then the associations were not putting in run limits, time limits, PPRs, pitcher boxes, screens, and guys were not looking like hockey goalies or claiming the "middle is closed" because of them.

So there is NO comparison between what happened back then and now. NONE!

And to those who can understand, my credibility is just fine. To the sheep, that is not my concern.
April 11, 2012
neck10
504 posts
bats break sometimes but like I said before buy the asa stamped ones they last longer havent broke one yet but dont swing them in less than 79degree weather unless in toc in feb.Traverse city is warm enough by 1st of may
April 11, 2012
neck10
504 posts
70degree not 79
April 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Traverse City gets to 70 by May 1? Must be global warming, I don't recall it being that warm there that early when I was in Ann Arbor in the early 80s. :)
April 11, 2012
mad dog
Men's 65
3948 posts
pricer never once mention ability's,but was questioning why you jumped salio about amount of tourney's.all he did was ask/state something,and you got your panties in a bunch...i have to travel at least 150 miles for any senior tourney i go to.my team (out of southeast texas,corpus Christi area)that i now play with will do that and more for travel and will do at least 6 tourney's,along with the major ones(2 or 3 of these)...
so tell me where yours is any different,we all travel,very few at home tourney's for senior ball,not the same amount of teams the kids have,so yes there will be less teams at any given tourney,except for the worlds.....
April 11, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
MD, I took what Salio posted the way he wrote it. It's real simple. "It's pretty obvious that you guys don't go to many tournaments". What's so obvious about my post that would indicate I don't have enough tourney experience? He was indicating it's obvious I don't play enough tourneys to qualify to have an opinion. How did you read it? I have no personal agenda here, just giving my 2 cents like everyone else. I'm no super duper major quadruple player, but I believe there enough folks out there that will attest, I'm no beginner either. Also, I have spent most of my adult life in the sporting goods biz. So I'm also fully aware of the technology and cost of the products we use. Sorry for the rant.
April 11, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
MD, I took what Salio posted the way he wrote it. It's real simple. "It's pretty obvious that you guys don't go to many tournaments". What's so obvious about my post that would indicate I don't have enough tourney experience? He was indicating it's obvious I don't play enough tourneys to qualify to have an opinion. How did you read it? I have no personal agenda here, just giving my 2 cents like everyone else. I'm no super duper major quadruple player, but I believe there enough folks out there that will attest, I'm no beginner either. Also, I have spent most of my adult life in the sporting goods biz. So I'm also fully aware of the technology and cost of the products we use. Sorry for the rant.
April 11, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Pricer......I re-read my post. What I said is nothing I would not say to your face. I would not expect you to be offended. In your post before mine you wrote "Do you or anyone else think that a 750.00-1000.00 per year is a little much for softball bats or has softball been berry, berry good to us?" I said that I hoped one of you would go to Vegas this month to see how many bats we seniors carry in our bags, that's all. In the past when some spoke of seniors not liking the senior bats, I told Gary and others to go to Phoenix to see what bats were in the dugouts. Of course, I knew the answer to be nearly 100% senior bats.

I know that I said that it was obvious that you two do not partake in a slew of tournaments, but Gary did acknowledged such and you did also when you said "I never once indicated I was Mr. tourney guy!"

I did not question your skill. Without personally seeing you play, I can not make any judgement.
April 11, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
622 posts
Wow, I just don't see how I could have read that any different. But anyways, I play a couple nights a week and I play about six senior tourneys a year. I play on a pretty good club that alot of folks have indicated we're one of the better AAA teams out there. I've been blessed to play with or against some of the best players in our era. Most which do not play senior ball. I just think sometimes we as seniors act as if the associations ever brought back the old standards, we would not miss a beat and nothing would change. BS. Get the best balls of our days and best metal bats back in the day and no way in hell are balls traveling as fast or far as they do today. I know it's not gonna change, but please don't insinuate that we've all found the fountain of youth and we're stronger & faster than we were 20-30 years ago. Let's be realistic here. JMO
April 11, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1006 posts
Pricer.. I know the 50s guys in are area could hit them with the metal bats just as far using the same equipment of 15 twenty years ago.. I am speaking of couse of the guys in major and major plus... and the better power hitters in triple A.. blue stich Skyhawk from 20 years ago would go 400 feet... Anyway not all seniors and created equal. FYI
April 11, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
403 posts
Those that say the ball is going out and going faster today than the mid 80 and 90 do not have a clue what they are talking about.
We only had alum bats and we had 8 guys who would hit the ball out of the park as line drives or tall ones.
We were office workers who liked softball.
Single wall bats. Did we bend/destroy a lot of bats, yeah.
Cost were 50, then 60 then all the way to 135, then, later
going to $250 for Demarini in early 90's.
NOW when I started playing in 1974 we used wood bats with actual soft balls, guessing at distance was 200 to 250???
Do not want to go back to wood.
April 11, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1006 posts
Yep Crusher, I always want to hit a good ball and bat combo... The balls we use now are nothing like the balls in the late 80s and early 90s.. hell they are nothing like what we were hitting in 2005. I know that Senior softball would suffer if they didn't let all of us hit a good combo. No one wants to hit a pillow.. those that complain have no pop. Anyway, USA has said they are not changing out anything.. I applaud them for that!
April 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
If someone had told you guys 20 years ago you would someday be playing some version of the game with run limits, time limits, a screen in the middle of the field, pitchers looking like hockey goalies, "floating" pitching rubbers, and oh yea you no longer have to record three outs and earn your ups (or conversely you were told that you could have 5 in, none out, and the bases loaded but now have to stop batting and go out onto the field) would you have been saying "great, I can't wait"?
April 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
And, by the way, none of those have anything to do with age.
April 11, 2012
the wood
1087 posts
If someone told me 20 years ago that I'd be playing @ 64 I would have been surprised. But I am and I do so knowing the rules before I go to play. I know the equipment (and issues that it generates) and I still make the decision to play.
If you or anyone else finds fault with this, tough shit. I'm still planning to play.
Some of us played against the very best years ago and still like doing so. Some guys just like to play with their friends. It doesn't matter which group a guy is in... the operative word is 'play'.
I carry the number of bats in my bat bag that I want and could care less how anyone else feels about it.
If I want to buy a bat, I'll do so whether anyone else likes it or not (the exception being my wife).
Gary, if you want to take your ball and go home, do so... who cares? It doesn't matter that you think the game is over priced... it doesn't matter how good you think you are or how well you know the game. We'll still be PLAYing and enjoying it...
BW
April 11, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1006 posts
Amen, Mr Wood!
April 11, 2012
docswear
Men's 55
98 posts
Bob... as much as I hate to agree with you about anything, I really can relate to your post. You and I have played with or against each other for more years than guys getting close to going "40" have been alive. We play in a league with the worst ball I have ever hit with single wall bats with a bunch of Hall of Fame Players and have an absolute ball. We play in tourneys with the hottest of hot bats and lively balls and have an equal amount of fun... I show up with my glove and borrow bats in league and show up with three or four bats when I am playing in a tourney where senior bats are allowed. Neither is more enjoyable than the other. As you said.. It is simple.. We can still PLAY. We are getting old and still get to go out there and field and hit and I am grateful for every moment. We get to visit with great people and players with the same level of enjoyment and I find that no matter what level they play or why they are out there that we all have that common bond of just enjoying being able to be there. If somebody wants to rain on that parade, I get out my umbrella and just move on to someone that doesn't. As you know, I am not a "purest" when it comes to softball. If adapting the game to make it either more enjoyable or safe or faster or just making it available for more people to play, I am all for it. If we went back to wooden bats and crummy balls I would still PLAY... If you don't like the game or how it is played and can't get change because the majority don't want that change, start your own association with your own rules. Those that are in accord with you will surely follow.
NFTTY DocSwear
April 12, 2012
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
crusher, I agree with you. In the mid-80s, guys at the major or major plus level were clearing the fences; maybe even 8 on a team, just like guys are doing today. But your statement makes my point that conditions are hotter today than in the past.

First of all, in the mid-80s, these guys were 25-30 years old! At their physical peak! In shape, working hard, working out. Athletic freaks, stronger than their peers. Of course they could put a lot of muscle on the ball. Do you think SENIOR players in the mid-80s were hitting them out with single walls? Very, very few.

Second, they were hitting them out of parks that for the most part had fences in the 275-290 range. All you have to do is visit those 25-year-old fields today and you will see. And these parks had playgrounds and parking lots on the other side of the fence, because the average softball player could not hit one out. A home run was a rare occasion then, even with the shorter fences. Rec directors just shut their eyes and hoped when the big boys came to town for a tournament or played in the one weekly extra-high level league.

The balls were a lot hotter then (or at least some balls were) unless they were banned from league play as many were because they were TOO hot. And this means too hot even for the superior athletes who were fielding those rockets. It would have been laughable to think that the average senior player with degraded reflexes and eyesight could safely play with those balls. If even younger players couldnít handle them, how could seniors? And even with the hot balls, fields were not the monsters of today.

And of course guys like me, who were playing regularly in the 80s and early 90s, were not hitting them out, despite the best single-wall bat and the hot balls and the shorter fences. We just didnít have the power, even though we were in shape and took batting practice. And todayóIím not alone in being a former singles hitter but now able to reach or clear those fences. I know Iím weaker and I donít hit the ball squarely as consistently, yet the ball flies...the same dumbed down ball that you mentioned. The reason? Senior bats which produce much, much hotter conditions than in the past.

Of course, as Gary19 points out, it isnít only the increased field size in new parks, but also the need to dumb down the balls, limit runs per inning, and innings per game, and require pitchers to wear protective gear that indicate that the associations know full well that conditions are hotter now than ever in softball history.
April 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Amen, Mr. Khayyam!
April 12, 2012
curveball
Men's 65
404 posts
Right on Wood. Expressed the way I feel also.
April 12, 2012
E4/E6
Men's 60
854 posts
Woody, you're ONLY 64?
April 12, 2012
saddlebrookrick
55 posts
I agree with Doc and wood--Omar you are determined-- but I firmly believe the majority like the way it is now and you don't even try to hear us say how we feel. You have your agenda and don't listen or hear anything unless it is how you feel. Do you really think you are convincing and changing other peoples minds? I guess at times it makes for a good discussion, but it gets same old same old. At least hear us.
April 12, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1006 posts
Omar, my league team plays in the best leagues in SF... We are for the most part all over 50 using ASA bats and still dominating the young kids... you Say that becuase we are 50 we are not even close to where we where in our 20s or 30s... I got news for you, some of us are playing pretty close to where we were in our 20 and 30s.. it's amazing, but I know for a fact I'm in better shape at 50 than my father was at 40 or 30.... I know that I have lost a bit of speed and some of my throwing arm but my bat speed is as fast as it ever has been and I know of other seniors AKA Joe Ranaldi that actually hit the ball Better now than they ever did in there 30's.. I know becuase I played against them 20 and 30 years ago. The curve is different for everyone... I see seniors that can hit with anyone in there 20s and 30s.. This game is not the same for everyone, and once again we were for the most part playing on 300 ft fences in the 90s and if they weren't 300ft fences they were either open or bigger! Just facts Omar! Ask anyone about northern California in the 90s and they will tell you the same!
April 13, 2012
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
saddlebrookrick, I'm sorry that you feel that I am not hearing you. I think I hear you loud and strong. I'm a regular player on the tournament circuit (16 to 18 tourneys a season) and I have a good feel for what guys like. I believe you are right that the majority like the current conditions. So do I in the sense that I enjoy my Miken, like the fact that I am now a "power hitter" when I wasn't for decades before the composites, enjoy the well-run tournaments and improved playing conditions, like the camaraderie and don't gripe about awards because that's not my motivation for playing.

My argument is that senior softball is a dying sport and it is because of the composite bats (and to some extent the consequences of hot batsóless fielding opportunity, larger fields to patrol, run limits and time limits, etc. etc.). The problem is that your majority is only the majority of a shrinking group of players.

Let's put it hypothetically this way. Assume there are 20,000,000 potential senior softball players who have all played softball in the past. Every year another 1,000,000 turn 50 and about 500,000 older guys are no longer able to play (age, disability, death, etc.). So the pool of potential players expands every year. If growth of senior softball continued as it was in the 90s, we should have about 40% more players now than we do. In the NCSSA (northern California) the number of teams is up about 5% in the last ten years.

As the popularity of composites grew so did the drop-out rate of players who no longer found senior softball fun. Eventually, the pool of players left were those who liked the hot conditions since those who didn't stopped playing. That's where we are today. The guys coming up in their 30s and 40s are not as keen on softball as we were in that age, so fewer will play. Thus, my projection of a continued and growing decline in senior softball.

swing for the fences, I hear you when you say you have lost some speed, your throwing arm is weaker, but you think your bat speed is the same. Is it just as fast, or has the composite tricked you into thinking that? Surely Joe Rinaldi, a legitimate power hitter, is now hitting farther than he did in his 30sóhe's using a composite with an estimated extra distance of 40 feet! Plus, he is a student of batting, and maybe he has also improved his technique.

Still waiting for someone to point out all the northern California fields that were 300 feet back in the 80s. I named 16 that were not, and I played ball in northern California in the 90s (and 80s and 70s and 60s and 50s for that matter). Just give me a list of a dozen tournament parks that were all 300 feet back in the day. Fields didn't need to expand until the introduction of the advanced single walls, the double walls, and then the composites.
April 13, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Good point, Omar. It is not just the bats, per se, but the silly rules that seem to have been implemented because of them.
April 13, 2012
salio2k
Men's 60
548 posts
Omar........You are correct in that those coming up in their 30's and 40's are not as keen on softball as we were at that age. I believe that the yearly pool of potential players is also not as keen on softball. They have other things to do. Also do not underestimate the clout of their significant others in making the decision to play. I've known players that quit just because of family. If the little lady doesn't want you to play, you don't play.
April 13, 2012
Omar Khayyam
1002 posts
salio2k, amen to that. I've had a few teammates over the years who no longer play tournament ball in order to keep peace at home. You could argue that modern women (or feminized women for those of us married to senior ladies) are more outspoken about the time spent on softball. On the other hand, I play with a few guys who were pushed into taking up softball again because the wife wanted to change her couch potato with a shorter lifespan into a healthier husband who regularly exercised.
April 13, 2012
the wood
1087 posts
Omar,
I thought that you understood my previous post which pointed out many 300' fields in Nor Cal. Perhaps you missed the part where I stated that we played on 300' fields as early as June of 1974.
Here are several 300' fields that we played on the 70s:
Fernandez Park - Pinole, CA... 1 field (1974 USSSA World Series)
Elk Grove Park - Elk Grove, CA ... 3 fields (Capitol Coors Classic, '78 & '79, ASA)
Willow Pass Park - Concord, CA... 2 fields (numerous ASA & USSSA events, 1980 USSSA World Series)
Auburn, CA (east of Sacramento) - do not know the name of the park... 4 fields (we actually played there in 1994 but it wasn't new)... 1994 ASA 45 +.
Woodland, CA - we played there in June of 1980 and it was brand new... 4 fields.
That is a total of 14 fields but I'm not from Nor Cal... surely the guys up there know of even more.
But Swing's original point was that he played on lots of fields in Nor Cal that were 300'. You didn't buy that... maybe because your travels hadn't taken you to any of them. But Swing says he did, I know that we did and I could name 100 others who did. It it would simplify matters I could name the teams.
Sometimes facts do interfere with a good story but there were definitely ample 300' fields up there and during the time frame that you mentioned.
BW
April 13, 2012
the wood
1087 posts
Omar:
I need to amend my last post in a couple of places...
1980 - park in Woodland had at least 2 diamonds, possibly 4...
1994 - 4 diamond complex was closer to the city of Sacramento, not in Auburn... perhaps Arden.
Sorry for the false info...
BW
April 13, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1006 posts
Hey omar did the woods point out the fields that were 300 foot back in the day I hope that helps you it's been stated before
April 14, 2012
neck10
504 posts
it almost hit 90 here three weeks ago I been up here 38 yrs we get som warm springs was 70 today the first week in may rains a little then summer takes off
April 14, 2012
neck10
504 posts
pricer I told you sleede was going to rub off on you
July 6, 2012
chikn55
Men's 50
20 posts
I purchased a white centenarian and after about 5 swings paint started to come off. after about 25 more swings big chunks of paint came off. At know time was the performance of the bat effected. It hit great and felt great from the get go. My only concerns about the paint chipping off was the ability to use the bat in tournament play.I contacted Rob Kauffman and Combat and they asked me to send them pictures of my bat. About 4 days ago i received my new bat. I've taken about 50 swings with it and there is no paint issues. Mr.Kauffman and Combat were very understanding and super to work with.
THANK YOU COMBAT
July 6, 2012
tinman
Men's 50
75 posts
My first White Centenarian also had paint chips and was replaced by Combat.I own 2 more as backups and the problem is gone.
July 6, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
Tattooball just wanted to let you know that I did recieve my replacemant bat for the 1 that broke. Thanks, you said that I had sent it to the wrong place. Where should I send the one that just broke after 75 swings? Its after hours or I would be calling you. You can call me at 317-281-0734 or just put it on this message board whichever you prefer.
July 9, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1992 posts
I finally got my white Centenarian out and used it all weekend in Silver City, NM. I have never used an end loaded bat but decided to really try it out.The paint cracked on the first couple hits and a couple of chips came off, but it was very hot right out of the wrapper-even with the Classic M ball. Unfortunately, I found I only seem to have warning track power with it. I only hit 2 out of the park and hit 5 to the warning track. (Just because the fence in right ranged from 340 to 360 and we used the 40 cor ball is absolutely no excuse). Seriously, if it holds up well, I have found a bat other than the U2 that I like.
July 9, 2012
neck10
504 posts
pricer maybe you ought to move back north to traverse city it was in the 70's in march.
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