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Discussion: Thoughts for the upcoming SSUSA Rules Committee meeting!

Posted Discussion
Nov. 17, 2012
audieh
Men's 60
240 posts
Thoughts for the upcoming SSUSA Rules Committee meeting!
I understand at the upcoming meeting there will be a number of potential rule changes that could affect the major plus division. As a current player and sponsor of two major plus teams and having played in the 50, 55 and now the 60 major plus level for the past 10 years I would like to address some of the potential issues from our team's view point. All of these responses are strictly for major plus rules and are not for any other category.

Granted I am a player and sponsor and not in the administration of any senior organization so I do not know all of the issues affecting a organization and the difficulties in running tournaments and keeping the clients happy. Never the less it is a good thing to hear back from your customers.

1)Pitching screen. Most of us do not like the screen but are OK if the opposing pitcher feels the need for a screen. Just do not make hitting the screen, whether it is the first, second or third time, etc. an out.

2)1 and 1 Count. We prefer a full count but understand the necessity of speeding up the game. We play the 1 and 1 in the Florida Half Century and it works well. It gives the pitcher an advantage but we are fine with this rule either way.

3)The 70' bases worked well in Vegas and we are fine with the base distance whether or not it is 65' or 70'.

4)Rock ball versus present ball. We do not have enough information to make the correct call here. However, we must have a ball that does not take weird bounces when hit, or require cutting the ball to hit out. We prefer a ball that does not lose distance during hot weather. The present balls appear to be fine to our teams.

5)Major plus allows team to pick up from bordering states and two players from east or west of the Mississippi River. We are fine with that rule. However, eliminating the two players from east or west of the Mississippi River would be acceptable as it would affect all teams the same. Making Florida and California stand alone states would not be in the best interest of senior softball in our opinion. This has been tried in the past and resulted in breaking up some teams as last year we said goodbye to some fantastic guys and players from Georgia and Alabama.

If we use the recent Las Vegas World Master tournament as a test case we see that there were 28 teams in the major plus division for the 50s, 55s, 60s and 65s. Ten (10) of the teams were from California as would be expected as it is a major population state and borders Nevada. However, California teams only won one of the four divisions. Florida won one, North Carolina one and Washington one. This seems like a fair dispersion of talent and should not be changed. If California or Florida had won three or four of the divisions then you may have a need to address this rule. As it stands now the California teams are competing among themselves for the best players and as a result dilute their talent. We end up doing the same thing here in the Florida, Georgia, Alabama area.

6)Home runs over the limits as an out are NOT acceptable. Many of my players have told me that they do not want to play any tournaments that have home runs over a limit as an out or that have extremely low home run rules. I agree with this position. We believe home runs should be unlimited or if limited should be at least 10 or 12 with home runs over this amount a walk. We also feel that runs per inning should be no less than 9 in the major plus division or unlimited. Just install some reasonable mercy rules which would keep games on time. Low runs per inning limits such as 5 keep games artificially close and many times the best team does not win if the lesser team has one good open inning.

7)Major Plus versus Major dilemma. There are hundreds and hundreds of adult baseball teams in the United States. However, there are only 30 major league ball teams. The National league and the American league teams basically play most of their games in their divisions and as such play the same teams over and over again. This is expected when you are playing on the top level. Guess what, on the pro tennis circuit the same top eight players pretty much make it to the final eight in most of the tournaments. The same could be said for basketball and football. There is not a lot of room at the top of the pyramid and when you are at the top in any sport or endeavor there will not be a lot of equal competition, just a few.

I do not think combining the major plus and major divisions would result in more teams. The better teams would recruit from the lesser teams and the division would result in a disparity that would result in the lower major teams dropping out. I hear players complain all of the time that there are not enough major plus teams. Well guess what sweet heart, if you want to play against the best (see the major league baseball reference above)there will always be very few teams to play. Therefore, in order to have diverse competition we need to have a way that a major plus team can play lesser teams on a more or less equal footing so that both teams have the potential to win.

This past weekend we had no one to play in the SSUSA Winter Nationals in the 60 major plus division. We ended up playing 55 major teams even up. We felt this was fair. The weekend before we played in the SPA World Series and again had no one in our division. We played against 50 major teams even up. We felt that 10 years was too much to give with no equalizer as honestly the 50 teams are faster and stronger. Hey, we lost some games but had a good time and enjoyed the challenge.

The point here is that there should always be some one to play. The associations just need to decide what is a fair equalizer. My suggestion is to give the lesser team extra runs per game but to not double penalize the better team by also making it play down to the lesser teams home runs and runs per inning restrictions.

Here are some interesting facts based on the 2011 ToC tournament in Polk County. (It should be noted that some rules have changed since I penned this last year.) There were 2 major plus 50 teams and 3 major plus 55 teams. Due to the small number of major plus teams the major plus teams were required to play major teams in the round robin. The results were 1, yes I said 1 major plus win, and 9 major wins! The scoring was also skewed with the major plus teams averaging 16.6 runs per game and the major teams averaging 21.2 runs per game. This is a 4.6 run differential per game which would lead me to believe that the major plus teams having to give 5 runs or an extra 11th defender creates an unfair advantage for the major team, or the major teams are just as good as the major plus teams. In essence the major teams were given 5 runs which should have been an equalizer. Instead they won by an average of 4.6 runs per game.

I have seen these results repeated in other tournaments as well. Based on this limited sampling it would appear that no equalizer is required and the major teams are every bit as good as the major plus teams! However, you and I know that there are only a few major teams that can compete heads up with the major plus teams.

However, my personal experiences has shown that the major plus teams are being double penalized as they are having to play with the major rules of only 5 home runs. This is a major impediment to the major plus teams which are typically built with more home run power. This results in the major plus team hitting home runs for outs and/or power hitters having to purposely hit opposite field or up the middle to keep the ball in the park. Since the major plus players tend to be power hitters and not base hitters this limits their success and gives an advantage to the major teams who are more practiced at hitting for base hits and quite honestly tend to have as good or better defensive players.

I believe the senior softball associations should at least analyze this predicament and considered instituting the following corrective action.

When major and major plus teams play give the major team the 5 runs but play with the major plus home run limits and runs per inning.

I believe a tournament or two using this change would provide some interesting data which could then be used to make changes if they are deemed necessary. If not, it appears based on this limited analysis that the major teams have the advantage. The proof is in the 1 and 9 record exhibited by the major plus teams.

OK, those are my thoughts based on discussions with several of my teammates. I would ask SSUSA to really consider if their current model is broken. To me it seems to be working fine!


Nov. 18, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Your comments are well thought out, I agree with some, but you can't have it both ways. You state how many times there is no one to play at the Major+ level, yet you want all the rules (unlimited HR's, 9 runs per inning and players outside your borders) to favor the more powerful Major+ teams. Giving more runs is not a good equalizer, most teams don't even consider it a "win" if they "out score" the opponent say, 25-22, but were "gifted" 5 runs, they really lost by 2 ... talk about artificially keeping the game close!

90% of all tournaments are played with combined divisions in some way. If you are okay with playing the best 2 out of 3 against the only other Major+ team that may enter the tournament after a couple of pool play games, then play with these almost unlimited rules. If you want to play against a variety of teams and get more teams willing to play at the Major+ level, then SSUSA needs to go back to some of the rules from the past, because the current model IS broken for most teams and I believe that's what they will be looking at.
Nov. 18, 2012
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
audieh,
How do you dilute teams from California with 33.8 million people and teams from From Florida with 16 million people. Those two states don't need players from touching states, much less east or west of the mississippi. The advantage is certainly in their court.
Nov. 18, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
A133-figure out how many people Tennessee has access to. You will wonder why they don't have several teams from there.

audieh-I agree with almost all of your post. I have been surprised at the difference between major and major plus teams. But, also you have to remember teams are built around playing to specific rules, so major teams are not going to go after as many power hitters as major plus would. You make a lot of great points.
Nov. 18, 2012
Al33
Men's 55
183 posts
Yo Mark,
I don't wonder at all why Tennesee doesn't have several teams. In fact Tennesee ranks 17th in U.S. population. They don't have any excuses either. So, what's your point?
Nov. 18, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
A133,
I think what he means is if you add up the population of Tennessee and all its adjoining states (Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, N. Carolina, Virginia, and Kentucky)it comes out to 55.5 million, which is considerably higher than Florida (16 million), or California (36 million). How can you restrict California and Florida and not states like Tennessee? Not to mention the geography of the states. California is an extremely long state. For Southern California teams, players in parts of Nevada and Arizona are geographically more desirable than Nor Cal players. 3 to 4 hour drive time as opposed to 7-10 for Nor Cal players.

Mango
Nov. 18, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
Make home runs in every division but major plus dead ball outs. See how many plus players want to play major or AAA then.
Nov. 18, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
My take on many issues raised in this thread.

1) Screen or no screen...no screen..if there is a screen it should be a foul ball and pitcher cannot field a ground ball.

2) type of all...the softer the better

3) 1 - 1 count all the way...for those of us that had the chance to play NSA or usssa 1-1, we have experience how 1-1 make the game faster/less boring as some pitcher takes two pitching missing the corner or a batter sitting there and taking two strikes.

4) Major Plus.....the crap....and that's exactly what it is when Plus teams say five home runs makes them inferior/equal to Major teams because of how they are built. Any idiot in the world knows POWER turns into high on base percentage when those power guys keep the ball down. Besides....power is not the only difference between Major and Plus...Defense in the Plus Division is also superior.

As far as 50 teams playing 55..... Those are not apples to apples.....

As I have said before...the problem with Major Plus is that the superior teams/dynasty's are left in tact after they have proven to dominate the Plus Division.

Plus champions should NOT be allowed to return intact.... They should only be able to return with a very limited number of players...I would vote that they be allowed to come back with Six players that have won worlds in their Plus age group Division.

If this is not the case....forget about feeding the Major Champions to this failing Plus program/let those few teams wanting to stay in the failing Plus program stay in the couple teams events they want...instead give Major champions the
same choice I just said should be the rule for Plus ball...give the Major Champions the chance to return to Major ball with no more then six in age group Champions.

Merging Plus with Major makes no sense to me....Plus is failing for many reasons...the biggest reason Plus is failing is because dominant/Champion teams get to stay together and even pick up a few new great players each
season.....don't allow more then six "in age group Champions" on the same roster till they reach the next age group.

Turning over the top team each year is working in every other Division. Why stop it at Major?
Nov. 19, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Thanks, Mango, for getting my point on Tennessee and all of the adjoining states a team from there would have access to.

I am very disappointed that several very good 60 M+ teams have decided not to compete again this year. Hollis and Turn Two were the class of the division, but we really only got together to play at Dalton and Vegas. I am a strong believer that the more you play the better teams, the more you watch and learn what they do to beat you and then incorporate that knowledge into your own game. You get better and then learn to beat them. The problem is proximity and cost of getting to tournaments to play each other.

I used to be a proponent of the 1-1, but the more I play senior ball, the more comfortable I get with the 4-3 count. Going back to 1-1 would be an adjustment, for sure.

Tim-on the equalizer-you are M+, playing major. You have hit your 7 home runs in the first four innings. ON THE FIELD, you have a 17-5 lead going into the 5th. They get 5 runs, but now they have also gotten 4 equalizer runs. Now it is 17-14. In the bottom of the inning the M+ team has 2 runs in and 2 on. A 3 run home run becomes a walk and the next guy lines out. Now instead of 22-14, it is 19 to 14. They then get their 5, plus 1 in the top of the sixth. Now they are ahead 20-19, M+ is out of hr's, instead of M+ being up 22-15, they are down 1 run. Don't give me the crap about hitting down, this stuff happens. We had a very similar game to this in Phoenix. I agree it is a double penalty to play M+ rules AND give 5 runs.

And, Tim, why are you so anxious to 'turn over' the top Major Plus teams. I would think anyone playing Major Plus wants to play the best, beat the best and become the best. You don't do that by breaking up the best so you can become the best. You get better to become the best.
Nov. 19, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim suggests breaking Plus teams up when he asks why stop at Major when when moving teams up after winning a division. We've been down this road before with you young man. And you either aren't willing or don't seem able to grasp the concept of what is happening out there in the real world. Lower division teams are not being asked to "break up", they are being asked to "move up". There is nowhere to move up above Plus. I could go into your other faulty logic arguments here, but that may be too much info for you at one time. So for the time being lets see if you can grasp the concept above.
Nov. 19, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Correction-double penalty to play major rules and give 5 runs.
Nov. 19, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Mango, what happens when Major+ plays Major? DBO's? You may be kidding but as you know there are so few Major+ teams, that 90% of our games are against Major and AAA teams.
Nov. 19, 2012
boston
296 posts
Interesting discussion for the few teams SSUSA has for major plus. I have read on past threads about the possiblity of widening the age groups. Such as, 50-58, 59-67 etc. maybe this would help. It's a tough call because I for have seen players in AAA and major that appear to be very capable of playing major plus. I do know population has a great deal to do with availablity of quality players that not only have the desire to play M+ but the finances.
Where I live and play league, Las Cruces, NM has about 5 senior teams w/ a population of about 100,000 incl the whole county. Albuquerque 250 miles north approx. pop. 500,00 and El Paso Tx 50 miles south approx. pop. 1,000,000 are far more capable of gathering a more talented and competitve team than little ole Las Cruces. So i can empathize with those that states like Ca., Fl., or Tx can pretty much survive on their own w/o pillaging other states.

All divisions should go 1-1, just about everyone takes a 1st strike anyway.

I play with the "Rock" ball in usssa absolutely sick ball especially with the new usssa bats. I can only imagine the damage done with a senior bat and the "Rock".

I agree with everyone that says a lower team getting 2 equalizers not cool. You either take 5 runs and play with M+ HR rule or no urns and play major HR rule.


"Stay thirsty my friends"
Nov. 19, 2012
stattad
Men's 65
151 posts
I hope #3 becomes a reality. We need 70' bases to keep the scores down a little and make for more strategy regarding pinch-runners, scoring from 2nd, etc.
Nov. 19, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
"When major and major plus teams play give the major team the 5 runs but play with the major plus home run limits and runs per inning"
This is a good way to do it if major teams get the 5 extra runs.
How about when a major plus team plays a major team just play straight up (no giving runs or extra fielder) using the major home run rule?
Nov. 19, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Don, since you hate my view that Plus Champions should be reduced to no more then 6 Plus Champions on the same team until they reach the next age group in an attempt to grow Plus ball....

How about this one?????

The Plus Champions get to stay together BUT.... For the next two seasons IF any six Plus Champions appear on the same roster they are only allows to play in the Plus program of the age group directly below them...

That way the Plus teams are not being broken up.... They are jut being moved up to the Plus program in the age group below them.

That way the Plus Champions can stay together if they choose.... Kinda like Every other SSUSA Championship team faces now when they are rightly bumped for winning... Only exception is the Plus champions move down an age group...

And since many of the guys supporting leaving the Plus dynasties in place because they crave Competetion..... I say give them all the. IMO they want by moving them down an age group.

Maybe mango or some of you other multi Champions could give us feedback on this..... I mean any competetor that was on a team that dominated should
like this concept to give them stiffer Competetion.
Nov. 19, 2012
4Four4
Men's 60
79 posts
Cut the spot! If the spotted team gets 5 runs in an inning don't give the 1 run spot on top of that inning. In fact, if they get to 4 - call the half inning and give them 5. If the spot is meant to even things up - lets make it possible to get even. Shortens the game and makes sure the over team gets 7 innings to hit and make up the difference. It shouldn't have to come down to the last open inning every time. Cut the spot.
#4 - DH
3B AO
Nov. 19, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
stick-one or the other is reasonable on equalizers. Also, you must have been out there at Desert West and I could not remember who iI talked to here that played on OKI. We probably walked by each other several times. We were the ones in Grey squinting into the 2PM sun over the mound on field 3 both days at 60 M+. Sorry I didn't remember your team!

Tim-we did play the Nighthawks last year straight up-60 M+ vs. 55 M+. It was great. We don't take the 5 unless we have to.

Nov. 19, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Webbie we were at Desert West and was that sun brutal or what!! We played our 2nd prelim game friday looking into that sun and lost 10-3! Myself and a few other of our guys struck out swinging because we couldn't see the ball. Our scorekeeper threw out the page for that game--lol.
If I would have known you were there I would have looked for you and introduced myself. One of these times we'll meet up.
How'd you guys finish?
Nov. 19, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Tim, so if a 50 team wins at Major+, they have to play 40 Major+ the next season? Wow!
Nov. 19, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Stick-we beat Hendricks 2 out of 3 to win it. They're a tough team but we hit well.

We played the game before your 10-3 and I swung and missed one, then just laid the bat out there and flicked it, actually made contact, had no idea in the world where it went, and then it fell in. Never saw it. Then we played same time Saturday, too. Same stuff. Blind squirrel and acorn, you know? How did you guys finish?
Nov. 19, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Webbie I watched some of that game. You had some strong hitters Congrats to you guys. Who was your lead off guy? He looked like he had leg warmers or something similar on both his legs. Pretty quick runner!!
We finished 2nd--ran out of gas at the end. Playing against good teams and battling with the sun was tough enough but giving up 5 runs each game to these teams was a real challenge. They were all solid teams
Nov. 19, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
976 posts
Tim, why in the world would you want a softer ball... They already soften it up compared to what we hit in the 80s and 90s!
Nov. 19, 2012
JamesLG
295 posts

I believe at this meeting the Major+ tag on a player must be dealt with. A player should not be punished or tagged for being talented. Quite a few AAA players could and should be playing M+ but choose not to because of the long term effect of the M+ tag.

After hitting the "Rock" ball in 95deg heat in Vegas we should make that the standard.

Thanks:

James
Nov. 19, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
For the purpose of this discussion. All-Tourney refers to those selection made select tourneys, based on the number of participates. RocknReno and World Master. I like the way SPA handle the Major Plus issue. Create an “impact” player list based on the all-tournament team at the season ending world tournaments. Teams will be limited to having X number of impact players on their team without having a class change. Impact classification follows a player for three years. If you were all-tourney in 2009 and received no more “all-tourney” awards in subsequent years, you would no longer count toward a team’s “impact” player list. If you received an “all-tourney” at selected events your status would be changed the following year. No “Impact” player may drop more than 1 classification. If you were selected at Major+ you could play Major within the same age group. No automatic tag placed on all of the players on a team that wins at any level.
Nov. 19, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
Regarding Rosters, based on the existing rules and most recent World in Vegas here is where it broke. IMO opinion no changes to the rules regarding rosters needed.
50's
Major Plus
Name State Finish
NW Legends WA 1
Sommerville SoftballCA 2
Kevitt X MN 3
OKI Players OH 4
Demolition/GSC CA 5
Nazzareno ElectricCA 5


Major
Name State Finish
ENR (NJ) 1
Kansas City Barons(MO) 2
MTC 50's (CA) 3
H&O/Team Snake (KY) 4
Team Arkansas (AR) 5
Sports Center (RI) 5

55's
Major+
Name State Finish
MTC 55's (CA) 1
Connecticut SportsPlex CT 2
Fangrabber 55's (AZ) 3
Summy's Nighthawks (CA) 4
Roberts Const/Pope (WI) 5
MN Grayhounds/Tasty MN 5

Major
Name State Finish
ENR (NJ) 1
Kansas City Barons(MO) 2
MTC 50's (CA) 3
H&O/Team Snake (KY) 4
Team Arkansas (AR) 5
Sports Center (RI) 5


60's
Major+
Name State Finish
Hollis Appraisals FL 1
GSF 60's AZ 2
Turn Two/Chavis NC 3
Mobley Gin/Crystal Rx GA 4
MTC 60's CA 5
Jim & Joe's Ice KY 5

Major
W.E. Ruth Realty 60 WA 1
Timberworks Const. CA 2
Memphis Invest/Edge TN 3
Handeland Flooring WI 4
No Dice CA 5
MN Masters / White MN 5

Nov. 23, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
Jawood,
When a major plus team played a major team they would split the difference on homerun rules- 0 for major, 12 for plus would be 6 in the game, followed by one-up/walks. The runs per inning would split the difference as well - 9 for plus, 5 for major would equal 7 runs per inning. You would end up with rules very close to the existing major rules today whenever a major team played a major plus team. The rest of the time they wouldn't be able to hit homeruns- my guess is they would begin to welcome playing the plus teams. And some upper level major teams would possibly be "enticed" into playing plus.
Nov. 23, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
Looks like runs per inning is going to go to 7 for Major+, so the difference would be 6. Your HR idea is interesting, but I don't know that Major teams would be enticed to play Major+ teams just to count over the fence hits as HR's when they still could swing away with no penalty, albeit for one base instead of four.
Nov. 24, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Jawood-I actually got to liking the 9 runs per inning, after thinking it was too much at first. There is a considerable difference between the 5 run inning and the 9 run, and it gives a team a chance at some separation. At M+ I think this is good. The biggest drawback is you don't get a lot of 7 inning games in, and that could be rectified with 1 1/2 hour time limit in bracket play. There aren't going to be huge brackets so it affects a very small portion of games to add that time. A case in point was our game against Master Collision early in the year. They built a 24-0 lead after the top of the third as we started slowly (understatement). The game ended in the bottom of the fifth at 25-24 for MC. It would have been fun to take that one to 7 innings.

Mango- split difference on hr's--major is 7, not 0 so 7 + 12 is 19/2 is 9.5 meaning 9 hr's, one ground rule double, then 1 up and a walk, right? :-) Let's see the umps keep that one straight! Seriously, I like the idea.
Nov. 25, 2012
DC13
13 posts
I have read all the discussions about the major rules vs the major plus rules. The one I can agree with is Stick8's on giving the major team the 5 runs and playing the plus rules of runs per inning limit as well as home runs per game. That would make it close to equal. I play on a 50 major team and we have played against plus teams many times. We have beat every plus we have played at least once. The thing that no one has mentioned is the plus teams don't even score the 5 run limit more then 2 or 3 innings a game on average. There are a lot of good teams playing now but. A good defensive major team with bat control will beat plus teams more often then not. Just my opinion on what I have experienced. Take It for what its worth as I know some won't agree.
Nov. 25, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
DC, considering this is your "virgin" post on this message board.... How about a little info on you and your team..

I personally have had a very different experience then the history you just posted.

Our MTC 50 major teams has played Major for three years and plus the year before that..... In four years we have played in age group Plus teams they have more often then not scored five runs in an inning.

Matter of fact.... In the last Plus World we played in we played the Mavericks and they scored 25 runs in five innings/we never ended an inning on Defense.... Matter of fact they scored 23 runs before making an out.
We also played oki, they score five in four of the first five innings then put 18 runs on us in the top of the open inning.

Next.... We were reclassed to Major three years ago.

Being from. NorCal that allowed us to play the longhorns, Nazarino, East bay Oldies. In those three years (playing one up hr rules in our NorCal senior association) we have beat those teams a total of four times while losing to them around 20 times.

Our MTC team came in third at SSUSA Manor Worlds this season, yet in three years as a major team we have won around 15% of our games against Plus teams.
And...... Most of our games against Plus teams were against East Bay and the longhorns.... Not two of the every year dynasty Plus teams.

DC, without knowing who you are and who you play for, I am at a disadvantage to understand who you have been playing, how strong your own team is, and what rules your playing under...

Heck.... Maybe your history is accurate but when your teams playing these plus
teams they are not at Plus World roster strength (ie have all there top players there and are only batting 10 or 11) or just maybe..... Your local association has figured out how to have rules in place that allow plus and major to compete equally with vastly different roster restrictions.

Anyway.... It would be interesting to learn why your experiences are so much different thy the ones ours Major team have had while playing Plus teams.
Nov. 25, 2012
Mike C
2 posts
Is there a separate 50 major plus world?
Nov. 25, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Tim, your right its my virgin post. I dont usually get involved in message boards, but i am far from a virgin of the game of softball. I am not trying to hide. i have no problem telling u more info, my name is Dominick Calise, i have played against your teams a lot since the early 90's. I play with Arizona Elite 50's now. Also played with the original Az Elite team and Prime Time Sports. I am not down playing any team, let alone plus teams. Actually i wish they would go back to one division where you just played who ever showed up. I am just stating facts of the teams we have played which include Nazareno, Demolition, Somerville and the team we just played last sunday OKI. We have played a few others as well as some very good major teams and some 55 major plus teams that were in our tournys. All very good teams in my judgement. Not saying they cant have games where they put up alot of runs. Against us on average i have not seen it. To be honest i think what hurts the plus teams the most is the short fields. A team with good defense will pick the hard hit ground balls and the 260 to 280 foot line drives they hit are caught on a smaller field. A good hitting bat control major team picks apart a 3 man outfield in the gaps. All this is my opinion from what i see. We had a very good year this past season. I see on here that you like to talk a lot but i can say you have always put together quality teams. We actually had one of your guys play with us years back....Bobby Newman also Denny Jones but not sure if he actually played for you. Again this is all my opinion based on my factual experiences. Since this is an opinionated message board i hope it does not offend anyone.
Nov. 25, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
DC, did you really win the games or just "win" because of the gifted runs given to your team? I have seen your team play and doesn't surprise me that you have competed well against those Major+ teams, but that's playing your HR and runs per inning rule. It gets tougher when the rules are expanded.
Nov. 25, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Well Jawood we beat OKI 27 to 23 they batted 7 innings we never batted in the 7th...we went into the inning up 10. I think we would of scored in our 7th. We beat the others by more then the spot except Sommerville we beat them by 5 and then they beat us in the finals with 6 runs in the bottom of the 7th. Both good games. Lets all admit that every team hits with these bats. I can see your point that the rules get tougher with expanded rules and the 5 runs given are harder to make up against good major teams.single. The only way i would understand that it hurts them is if all the plus teams were scoring 5 runs the majority of the innings with 1 or no outs. I dont feel the plus rules would hurt our team. What keeps us competitive is we have a good defensive team. We turn alot of doubleplays which as you know kill rallys. What i dont understand is that a major plus teams should not get hurt by major rules. If plus teams only score 3 or 4 runs in 3 or so innings in a plus tourny chances are they will get beat. Same goes in a major tourny. HR's are not outs after 7. Keep hitting them its just like a single. I would be ok if they changed the rules for the so called Platinum tournaments when major and plus teams are combined. Maybe 9 hr's and 7 runs an inning. I think the competitive level is really good in both levels. Lets hope that they figure out an equal set of rules. For now alls we can do is play by the ones that they have. I heard that they are considering screens for pitchers, that will add a whole new twist.
Nov. 25, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
784 posts
DC, you have a good competitive attitude. We could use more teams willing to play Major+. One rule I am pretty sure they are going to implement is 70' bases, other than that, your guess is as good as mine.
Nov. 25, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Thanks Jawood , i never worry about who i play against since i only play one way. I agree with the 70 foot bases. It definately helps on defense for sure. Pitchers are in a dangerous position, its bad enough playing 3rd or short. I am not sold that a screen is the answer though. Maybe in the older divison cause the bats are live. To play major plus a team needs finances. It is hard on sponsors with the economy. Maybe we will see u out there sometime.
Nov. 25, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Dominick, it's good to know more and more of young days upper guys are migrating to seniors....if I remember correctly there's a Mike C also.

It's being said that your team is merging with Nazarino. If thats true and your "in state" team could compete with the Plus guys why are they merging with an out of state plus team?

I don't understand the defense analogy at all...As I see it...the biggest difference between most Plus players and many other seniors is that the vast majority of them are not just great hitters...they are also many of the best defensive senior players.

As I have said fom my experience since I became senior eligible (more then 3 years) we have played Plus teams during the REGULAR season that are not exactly tearing up the 50 Plus program yet our 50 team very rarely beats them. And I consider our MTC record in Major to show we are just above the average Major team.

When I first read your "virgin" post I assumed it was "probably" from a Plus minded/supportive player....if your one of the AZ guys merging with Nazarino I guess it's not "probably" any more. If your still playing in the Major Division next year I hope to see you on the field.

Once again....my posts on the difference between Plus and Major, and concepts on how to make the Plus Division be more balanced and grow in team numbers is just my view....
Nov. 26, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
I would echo DC13's comments. They did beat us (OKI) by 4 runs in the championship game without batting in the bottom of the 7th--open inning. We were actually down 10 or 12 at one point. They were hitting it pretty well and as the game went on we had a couple dry innings combined with playing since 8am that morning got us a bit on the mentally fatigued side. We rallied a bit in the open inning but it wasn't enough. The 5 run spot we had to give up certainly didn't do us any favors either!! But that's the rule and we knew it going in. The way Arizona Elite was hitting the holes and gaps I'm not certain the 5 run spot would have mattered irregardless. Good team, good bunch of guys that deserved to win and was the better team that day.
Some of the major teams we played indicated to us they were befuddled why they were allowed to add 5 runs to their score. They didn't agree with the rule and would have preferred to play straight up. Personally I couldn't agree more. I'd like to see if a major plus team plays a major team they can play by major rules--7 hr's w/ 1 up and a walk after. No spotting runs or an 11th fielder. All the 50 major teams I saw in Phoenix could fare very well against 50 major plus teams. jmho
Nov. 26, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Tim, this is actually my 3rd year as well in the seniors. Your right it is good to see alot of the guys that you have played against for years.

You know as well as i do that the rumor mill stirs up a lot of misinformation. We are not merging and we should be seeing your team this year. Our team is built on border city's not border states.

I am a softball minded player. Labels don't do anything for me. All's i hear is who is a major or plus player....we are all over 50 years old we should not need a pat on the back to convince ourselves of our ability.

Hopefully soon they will come up with a balanced set of rules that work. You can't please everyone but maybe it will slow down the complaints.

Hey Tim how many posts do i need to lose the virgin status....lol

Nov. 26, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Stick8...Thanks for the nice words about our team. I am by no means downplaying your team. You have a very good team and i agree with the fact that you guys were a bit fatigued with that being your 4th game of the day. We are not young anymore.... I enjoyed competing against your team... you guys hit well as i seen a lot of hard hit balls sailing over my head at shortstop. I believe you played infield as well so you know what i mean ....its no day in the park.

Your right the tourny in Phoenix had all good teams. It was very competitive.

I agree with no spot of 5 runs...i believe 9 hr's with 7 runs per inning would be a good equalizer.
Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
DC....according to some.....that "virgin" thing is gone once you think about doing it....

Others say your still "virgin" till you know how it feels to touch "home base".

Some believe until Gary whatever tries to devils advocate you. Your still a "virgin" on this site.

I believe that until your life's threatened because of something you have posted your still allowed to wear white.

I have heard many talk about how good your team is...

It's good to hear your not being cannibalized by another team......merging teams never seems healthy for softball programs to me.

Our team sounds kinda like yours...nine of us play week night league together. And the other three live within 50-100 miles. Does Jeff pitch for you guys? If so...tell him it's ok for him to migrate over to this site also:-)
Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Stick8, it's always funny to hear teams saying we don't think we should get runs/players when playing a higher Division team....

My answer to that statement is always the same....."then I guess its great to know I will see you re-register to the higher Division next time". ...this is always answered by silence.

Anyway....Most would have to agree that just letting the dynasty Plus teams return intact to dominate year after year is not moving the Plus Division in a healthy direction.

Something has got to change.....

I mean really....

What is the average World Championship participation average for all Plus age groups?

Four teams?

Hello.....Huston......................
Nov. 26, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
DC13 the 9 runs per inning with 7 hr's would work also. Yes I play infield--normally middle in the 5 man but before the game our outfielders all indicated they were gassed and wanted to go 4 man so I went to 3rd base. I believe you hit a vicious line drive right at me which I somehow caught that really stung my hand. It still stings! Your right, definitely no day in the park playing in the dirt.
Except for games looking directly into the sun I don't think anyone could have asked for better weather.
Nov. 26, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Tim my suggestion would be to combine major and major plus. You can split the difference in the home run rule and play straight up ball. No extra fielder, no extra runs spotted. May the best team win.
DC13 put it very aptly when he stated he doesn't worry who he plays against and plays one way. That seemed to be the prevailing sentiment of all the major teams that we played against in Phoenix. Call it a hunch but I suspect the vast majority of 50 major teams would feel the same way. Sure you'll get some teams that won't be on board and complain. But odds are those teams complain about most everything. No one will be completely satisfied.
Meanwhile the rest of us hit, run and play defense.
Nov. 26, 2012
Mike C
2 posts
Hey Tim....have to love being on a board that when you make comments, suggestions you don't get "ripped apart" like those on "The Old Scout", LOL!....

You know, as well as I, that talking rule/game changes on a message board only stays on the message board. With the technology of today why not have regional meetings broadcast back to the directors of the program so voices can be heard without great expense, travel? Just an idea, you know the "Don" would never do such a thing!

In regard to that Winter World final, both loser/winner bracket, some good ball was played. OKI has a nice squad, plays hard, very talented, wondering who was from Kentucky (Louisville area?? I don't believe the spot was a game changer vs Elite. Some good ball was played and both squads left it all between the lines.

I believe these rules are based on the bat technology. Simple solution, design a bat not so hot. Is this technology really necessary in senior ball? Changing the bat protects the pitcher, a true equalizer, will limit the home runs and makes defense even more important when building a quality team. I know I just beat that dead horse again but when will someone wake up and do something about it?

Nov. 26, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
I also like the 9 runs with 7 HR's.

DC13 is my brother. Not biologically, that's Mike, and he's my brother too! We've had each others backs for a very long time. Since we were playing together in the early 90's. Our whole team is like that. Our attitude has alwaus been that we play whoever is put in front of us. If we win great. If we lose, we lose. No crying about that they're a plus team or that it's not fair. We're all over 50 and we all still love competing or we wouldn't be doing this anymore. Line up all the teams that are over 50, get some fields, and let's play. May the best team that weekend win.
Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Stick8, I will share a few well kept secrets with you.

Please keep this between just us....i can get kick out of SSUSA if they ever find out a passed this along......

SSUSA has worked hard to make sure this info doesn't leak out to the masses....

Secret number one.......Any team that wants to play Plus can register to play it.

The second secret is the most secretive. I know i am taking a chance sharing this with you.....but here goes.....

Terry has had nightmares that the Major Division teams got together and moved up in mass because they all wanted to play Plus ball... No lie...Terry is scared to death that every Major Division team will figure out they don't have to be stuck in the hellish Major Division.

Now....onto the secret I would like to share with you.....

If SSUSA encorporated my concept and only allowed Champion Plus teams these two options...

1) only ly six Plus Champions being legally allowed on a Plus team until they reach next age group.......OR....

2) the Plus Champions could keep more then six on their roster but they will be required to MOVE UP and play the Plus level one age group below them.

These two options would actually be where the Plus verbage, rubber hits the road...if you really don't care who you play against....you would move up and play the younger age group.....

For some reason..... I think a lot of the so called Plus bravado of we don't care who we play would be seen for exactly what it is....Bull crap.

The proof is in the pudding...as an example...while the Mavericks were amassing a "rumored" 118-3 record...their craving for competition never made them want to play in the younger Division.....

For some reason it's always the Plus guys talking about merging Major...I wonder why??????
Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Malo37.... If that's the case...why did you guys register Major when you could have volunteered to register MAJOR PLUS?

Actions speak louder then words.

This is not an attack...an observation.
Nov. 26, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
I also like the 9 runs with 7 HR's.

DC13 is my brother. Not biologically, that's Mike, and he's my brother too! We've had each others backs for a very long time. Since we were playing together in the early 90's. Our whole team is like that. Our attitude has alwaus been that we play whoever is put in front of us. If we win great. If we lose, we lose. No crying about that they're a plus team or that it's not fair. We're all over 50 and we all still love competing or we wouldn't be doing this anymore. Line up all the teams that are over 50, get some fields, and let's play. May the best team that weekend win.
Nov. 26, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
Tim, As usual your the toughest guy behind a keyboard......
We don't register as a plus team for a number of reasons
Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mike C, getting ripped apart doesn't effect me.

I don't know if it's thick sin or as some others proclaim no empathy.

Maybe just a little empathy and thick skin...

anyway.....I think senior ball is feeling some of the same effects that the young guys feel.....

the Don/powers that be in senior ball, have not come to the conclusion that turning over the top Divisions Dynasty's is healthy....they see it working in every other age group yet continue to allow the Plus dynasty's to stay in tact year after year...

Unlike Donny and USSSA who I believe does it because he's a fan of national all star Dynasty's....., I believe senior ball has some big PLUS players/sponsors influencing their direction.....many of them get personal satisfaction out of allow the status quo of PLUS Chanpion teams to return year after year to dominate...

I prefer to see Plus as I do all the other Divisions....turning over the top dynasty's is a good thing.....

The difference between senior and Donny's usssa is....other then the 40s (who I believe should have restrictions based on usssa elite/watch A list players and ASA list) ....senior softball has the ability to let the Plus Champions stay together and not effect the Division they were crowned Champions of....move them up to the younger age group or give them player restrictions to stay down in the Plus they just won.
Nov. 26, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
OOPS, didn't get to finish my post
1. We don't have the finances to travel a plus schedule
2. No other plus teams in AZ to play against
3. We want to play as many teams as possible and not be limited to which tourneys we can play in
4. We want to play againt you Tim. You have a great bunch of guys on your team. Unfortunately, you're not one of them......
Nov. 26, 2012
garyheifner
334 posts
gudieh

Since I play on a borderline AA/AAA type team, the major major plus issue does not effect me.

I have no problem with your points 1-2-3-4 and would support any changes or keep it as is. However, I will say that I really support the 1-1 count. Not only for speeding up the game, but reduces fatigue to the pitcher.
Nov. 26, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Hey Stick8 sorry about the sting. I was really trying to go over you down the line....my bad. Nice play though....
Nov. 26, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
OOPS, didn't get to finish my post
1. We don't have the finances to travel a plus schedule
2. No other plus teams in AZ to play against
3. We want to play as many teams as possible and not be limited to which tourneys we can play in
4. We want to play againt you Tim. You have a great bunch of guys on your team. Unfortunately, you're not one of them......
Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Malo...

I am not a tuff guy at all.....but...I will voice my views with reasoning behind them in person or on a board. I am sorry:-) if my post hurt your feelings...they were not meant to.

Now to your last post....

Talking about finances as a factor....

1) where would you play differently if you had registered Plus last year...you played winter and regular Worlds? Didn't you also travel out of state a few times?

2) no othe Plus teams in state. What difference does that make? We only have two major teams in NorCal....if they went away should we register AAA?

3) wanting to play as many teams and tourneys as possible..... If your goal is to play the best because your "competitors" why would you even want to play in local 50 events with nothing but weaker teams (if that is the case?)...don't you guys have 40 tourneys near home, or local Youngster E or D events?

4) personal attack...... I gues were back to the old scout stuff...when some one thonks the heat gets put on its personal attack instead of continuing an honest personal debate on the issue...on this subject can you name all the great guys on our team you have had personal discussions with that your talking about?

In the end Malo, these type open discussions are POSSITIVE for softball....it makes us all validate our beliefs with facts or personal experiences.
Nov. 26, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
My bad Tim, shouldn't of attacked you personally...... I stand by the rest of my comments. I'm done with this.
Nov. 26, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Tim that was a good "virgin" analogy. LoL i am glad i can still wear white.

Our team is staying the way we are. We have a few new 50 year olds in our area that will help. I heard talk about California not being able to go outside the border....Florida as well. If thats the case a merger would not work anyway. Malo37 is right when he states we don't have the finances to play a solid plus schedule. Yes we have traveled just like your team has, but on a limited basis.

Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Dom, your instate thing is, unfortunately, not a Plus rule... At least not yet.

As for our team, we traveled once this season to Worlds in Vegas.

We traveled to Reno (2 to 3 1/2 hours drive from home) and PHX last year.

The year before that we traveled once to PHX.

It's our goal to have as much fun at home as possible, and travel as little as possible.

Our Major team has not voted to chase any "Championships" other then playing one World event each season.

It's just like we used to do when we played ball when we were young.... Stay at home and travel once.

If we were bumped to Plus in ssusa, i would vote not to support such a failing concept/Division......

As always.... I would vote to stay local and "maybe" travel once.

Where that one travel event would be? Who knows?

NorCal gives us many senior options....

We play some one day young guys 40 events .

A few NCSSA tourneys

Put on our own 1 day MTC round robins (normally three per season)

Qualify for a World event and the travel to that one World.

In the end....all but two of those events are possible no matter what we are ranked....or about 10 out of 12...

I just don't understand the need for seniors traveling a lot for softball....

Then again.... I am not retired so my wife still wants me around the house :-) and yes.... I know Malo probably has a hard time believing someone actually can love me... But he's not alone.... I can't believe she picked me either.....

In the end.... We are just a bunch of old guys wanting to feel like 8 year old little leaguers.....as in little league... Most play for fun... A small percentage play for "glory"... It's just that senior ball needs to figure out how to keep the glory guys from beating up on everyone else...they have figured it out at every level but Plus ball.... My concept takes care of that issue...
Nov. 26, 2012
local
120 posts
Something SSUSA should consider to improve attendence at Westerns and other regional tournaments is to award points to teams that place. These points would be used for seeding in World tournaments. A team that wins Westerns or Easterns etc.. should be seeded in the top five at Worlds.

Another way to do this would be to have the winner of Rock n Reno seeded #1 at Worlds. Winners of Westerns or Eastern Nationals be awarded 2nd and 3rd seeds. Winners of other SSUSA tournaments be awarded other high seeds. Make these tournaments count for something. You could also give points for 1st, 2nd and 3rd places at these tournament and than use those points at Worlds for run against or whatever.
Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
In tourneys with so many teams, who really cares about being seeded in the top half?

Especially when so many teams don't travel all season chasing any points...teams seeded in the bottom half could easily be as good as anyone else.........

If ssusa wants to entice younger teams to more events They have to figure out a way to reduce the need for 3 day events during the regular season.
Nov. 26, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Tim we often talk about why we still play. I come to the conclusion that its a kind of a sickness with no regrets.

We travel to Southern California and Vegas cause we can drive to them. I would not call it chasing championships. If we are gonna play we want to play against the better competition. All the better Arizona 50 major teams have moved up to the 55 division.

Well i am sure (marsh)Malo37 will be happy to know that someone wants you around.


Local, i like your thinking, it would of helped us in seeding....but in reality to win the tourny you are gonna have to beat the best anyway so it really does not matter. There are teams that dont worry about seeding games. Saving your legs and strength for sunday is what matters. I can see your point that it may encourage more teams to play in those tournaments.
Nov. 26, 2012
DC13
13 posts
I agree with that Tim.....3 day events in the 50's is tough cause most of us still have full time jobs.
Nov. 26, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Dom, I was not trying to refer to you guys with the travel post chasing Championships.

I did hear you guys went to LA but that's your own choice. Not something I'd really want to do but...to each their own.

I am thankful that in NorCal... NSA, NCSSA, SSUSA and a couple independently run events give us plenty of comp. mostly with one day tourneys, more then a few of them against 40 teams.. It's even rumored USSSA will run a few tourneys this season?

Thats kinda why I am not a big fan of going to Reno, and the Calcup...not attacking them, i am sure they are fine events but....its just we can play as many competitive games locally, mostly in one day for very limited costs.

I guess we are blessed compared to the majority of the country when it comes to senior ball.

I play senior ball because I get to play with a bunch of great guys...many of them,I have played with or known for many many years.

I have teammates I played with starting in...1980, '82, '84, '87, and a couple senior mates that have been forced to stop playing that we're friends/teammates from '86 and '90....

My other new mates are great guys that also love softball...I enjoy sharing their passion and sharing the tips I was taught in softball throughout my playing days.

In the end....I made a hug error that help lose our last game at Worlds...to a man they supported me when that play could have sent us into the finals.
Nov. 27, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Thats the best thing about senior softball playing with and against guys you have known for decades.
Nov. 27, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Tim,
1) only ly six Plus Champions being legally allowed on a Plus team until they reach next age group.......OR....

If a team that wins 50 major plus is only allowed to keep 6 guys from that roster the next year then 7 or 8 other guys may find it difficult to get on a team the next year. It's not like there's a herd of 50 major plus or 50 major teams to choose from plus you have to deal with the bordering states rules. In young mans ball your idea would work because there are more teams to choose from.

2) the Plus Champions could keep more then six on their roster but they will be required to MOVE UP and play the Plus level one age group below them.

How would that work with the 50+ division? They would have to play the 40's?
Nov. 27, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Our attitude has alwaus been that we play whoever is put in front of us. If we win great. If we lose, we lose. No crying about that they're a plus team or that it's not fair. We're all over 50 and we all still love competing or we wouldn't be doing this anymore. Line up all the teams that are over 50, get some fields, and let's play. May the best team that weekend win

Very well said Malo37!!
Nov. 27, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
Nobody should have to move up or out for winning a championship in any division. Teams that are sandbagging, that is a different story. We're going way overboard on this win one/move on mentality. Directors just need to do their jobs. To broom someone up or out because they win on this weekend is BS. Putting a good team together of friends that can play is becoming a thing of the past. Is winning becoming the only reason we play?
Nov. 27, 2012
Pricer
Men's 50
616 posts
P.S. What ever happened to competing?
Nov. 27, 2012
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
That is where Mentalities Vary:

The General Consensus pretty much starts out with wanting to Play with your Buddies, your Comrades! To Generalize, the Majority Play for Fun, yet the Competitor within has been Trained to Play to Win! This isn’t Little League, nor is it the Big Leagues either, and I truly believe in general we all would agree that it’s more Fun Winning than Losing. At the end of the Tournament there can only be one Winner, as for everyone else, please do your part to minimize the Whining! Work on your Game, and spend less Time & Effort worrying about others. Take Pride in yourself, and Treat others as you would like to be Treated! We are supposed to act our age, although many times we forget. Let’s all be Thankful that we are still able Play a Game we Enjoy, and also be Thankful there are Sanctions that provide the Venues for us to Play, Play, Play ! ! !

Okay that may have been a bit over the top, but c’mon guys - Look in the Mirror ! ! !

Jeff White – Phoenix, AZ
Nov. 27, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Strat8,ilene look at those 6 or 7 Plus Champion players were left off the team so the team could retool and stay in the Plus Division they just won.

Is that any difference then the 10 or 11 players that are effected when a Major team gets bumped and they don't move up? And the same goes for a few AAA and AA Champs.

The difference is when those teams get bumped of they choose to stay in the same Division/not move up, they can only come back with THREE players not SIX.

Yes....50 Plus Champions that decide to stay together would have to play in the 40 Plus Divisin at worlds the next season..... Maybe if they do real bat in the 40 Plus World they could petition to go down to 40 Major the next season.

I mean really.... Is any of this far off from what the Champions of the AA AAA and Major Divisions face after they have been bumped?

For some reason some of you Plus guys talk about being big competitors yet the idea like treating you much like every other senior Champion is treated is wrong..... Is there some intitlement earned that I don't know of.

Now... I really have not followed the inner working of senior ball but... Based on how Plus Champions are being Pandered to.... There must be a reason..... Maybe powerful senior Plus people are entrenched in the rule making process? Or.... Maybe... No one has ever thought of a method to treat Plus Champions like all the other Champions are being treated.
Nov. 27, 2012
DC13
13 posts
Nice Post JDub.....and thanks u just took over my virgin status...lol
Nov. 27, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Jdub almost was forever in white. Wait a minute..... I guess he's always in White.

He has had an EAR FULL from the message boards more then once..... It's never been with the old guys though. So maybe this is his cherry moment.

Let's just be thankful jdub has more then one ear to be drilled..... I mean filled;-)
Nov. 27, 2012
Tate22
Men's 55
259 posts
As for the alleged problem that "plus is broken", incessantly repeating a theory does not make it correct, just annoying. At least in 50's and 55's, Major Plus is a lot of things, but it is not broken. First, it is absolutely wrong to assert that moving up to Major Plus should be the goal of every team. I have long advocated that Major Plus can and should be combined with Major, but that does not appear to be in the cards.

It is also wrong, and completely out of touch with reality, to assert that a champion plus team could/should be broken in half and then just scoop up half of a new team with relatively skilled players. Why, for what purpose? The only evident reason for someone advocating that solution is to remove competition through legislation. If you need rings that badly, Jostens will still sell you one. Heck, they might even throw in an "All-Keyboard" plaque.

Major Plus exists for one reason, to isolate or quarantine high performing teams who field a number of highly skilled players. Let them play each other, and improve the odds of the remaining Major teams. That is neither good nor bad, it just is, and it has not killed the game. In the last 10 years in these divisions at the SSUSA Worlds(50&55, M&M+), there has not been a significant difference in the total amount of teams playing, nor in the numbers at each age and level. It ain't broke, so there is no need to fix it.

I've played and managed in these divisions for the past 10 years, including playing and managing in 55 M+ for the most recent 4 years. Never once have I heard my fellow competitors like MTC 55's(either version), Hendricks, Fan Grabbers, Roberts, Connecticut Sportsplex, MN Grayhounds, Black&Blue, Mich./Ind. combo teams or anyone else in our division whine or complain about the so-called big ole mean "dynasty" teams with the thought that they should be broken up because they win. RATHER, as Stick 8 states above, the collective sentiment has also been, bring 'em on, we'll give it our best, and if you get us, we'll be after you even harder next time. It's called succeeding through competition and performance, not legislation! For those advocating anything else in the Plus division, give it a rest, here's a tissue.

Don Newhard
Nighthawks 55M+


Nov. 27, 2012
audieh
Men's 60
240 posts
Don, well said!
Nov. 27, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
346 posts
Thank you Tate22, you hit the nail right on the head.
Nov. 27, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Don, let's look for some FACTS here...

What's the average World tourney participation rate in Plus compared to the next level/Major?

I would GUESS its around 20-25% of the total of Major compared to Plus in the best Age groups...maybe less in others...

When the difference from one Division to th next is approx. 75% less teams.....I call that broken.

Next...let's look to see how many bumped from Major to Plus players/teams actually move up and stay there....I would QUESS it's around 10% over the last four years....

When only 10% of teams move up after bumped.....I call that broken

Now...how about another one....when I read for three years on this site guys CRYING to have Major and Plus merged, and every time I look into who is doing the crying to get the merger they are ALWAYS PLUS ASSOCIATES....I call that broken

When I hear the lower half of the Plus 50s saying we need more teams in Plus because with there being three or four dominant Plus teams we usually only get a chance to win one or if we are lucky two games in the Bracket at Worlds...I call that broken

When I read about Plus teams going to events and playing the best out of three games against one other Plus team...I call that broken


When I read/see a team gong 118-3.....I call that broken

When I see it mostly the same two or three teams (when they do all show up for Worlds) are playing Sundays at Worlds....I call that broken

When I read guys/coaches/sponsors that think they have the inside track on
adding the top Plus players from the next youngest age group when the younger guys become of age pushing for no changes to this failing Plus Division..... I call it broken

When I see the guys that are walking around with 10+ rings have won almost all of them in Plus ball.....I see that as broken.

As I see it...major Plus will continue to be broken until the powers that be see that they have the ability to bump the Plus Champions just like they bump the Champions in every other Division FOR THE GOOD OF THE DIVISION.

I am not sorry that this concept scares the guys that want to stay year after year in the same Division, being almost virtually guaranteed to be playing on Sunday at Worlds.... This concept is not allowed in any other Division and EVERY OTHER DIVISION IS HEALTHIER THEN ANY PLUS PROGRAM...NO MATTER WHAT AGE GROUP YOU LOOK AT.

Don, you might not have heard anyone in your Plus program crying about dynasty teams....but I am sure you have heard many of your Plus brethren cry about let's merge Major.....if you have not seen all those years you have not been paying attention.

It amasses me that many of the so called "competitors" in Plus are peeing down their leg in fear that they could have to COMPETE in games against guys one age group below them.

For the record...I do NOT believe most of the players on the top Plus 50 teams would care if this rule was implemented...it would just be the guys that think it's something special to win a senior ring and need to know year in and year out they should be in competition unless they fall apart.

Don, obvious for some, including you, that "bring'm on" stops with a birth date.....and here you were talking about being competitive....

Now let me get out the kleenex Box....

It's obvious what will happen if the concept of treating Plus Champions just like every other SSUSA Championship team that gets bumps is passed by the powers to be in an attempt to help save Plus ball form two or a few team round robins.

The "competitors" like you are going to be needing the tissues...I can hear it now...

." what do you mean we get bumped to the younger Division?
Don't you know that will keep us from winning a few more Plus Championships?

It's not fair.....

I don't care if SSUSA does this to every other Division...

We are special...do you know who he are?

We're Plus, damnit......."
Nov. 27, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
What do you know?

Who'd of thunk it?

Auden and mario...two guys connected to THREE PLUS teams agreeing Plus Champions shouldn't be treated just like the Champions of every other SSUSA Division.....

The...... we are special....... don't treat us like every other Division Champion is amazing......entitlement at its best......

Maybe one of you Plus guys fearing being treated like EVERYONE ELSE playing SSUSA in every other Division can explain why treating you different is good for your Plus Division instead of just good for the few guys associated with Plus Dynastys?
Nov. 28, 2012
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Tim, I believe you left out, "IMHO."

Don has obviously been involved with Senior Softball a bit longer than we have, so I actually enjoyed reading, and appreciate Don's Perspective. After all, Don "has played and managed in these divisions for the past 10 years, including playing and managing in 55 M+ for the most recent 4 years. Never once have I heard my fellow competitors like MTC 55's(either version), Hendricks, Fan Grabbers, Roberts, Connecticut Sportsplex, MN Grayhounds, Black&Blue, Mich./Ind." That is called Credibility!

I don't believe any of the M+ Teams would Squawk about playing in the younger Divisions, as long as the Equalizer Rules were agreed upon. In fact, there have been a few times where 40+ Teams have Played in our 50's Tournaments, at least twice that I can remember. Unfortunately for us, there are only 1 or 2 40+ Teams in Arizona. As Seniors, we should openly welcome the Competition in order to prepare for your Respective World Tournament, I know that's how we feel. Or should I say, IMHO ! ! !


Regards,
Jeff White - Phoenix, AZ
Nov. 28, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Tim-I have to say I also agree with audie, Mario, Tate, and a whole lot of other plus players that you should not break up Plus Champions just because they win a couple years. It's quite a different thing when there is a division to move up to when you win, but when you are at the top, there isn't room to move up. But these teams set the bar for the rest of us to shoot for. I will NEVER advocate tearing down a team in the Plus so my team can do better, or win a championship. It would be as hollow as I feel it is beating a team 25-23, but getting the 5 run equalizer to do it. That's not the competitive spirit I was brought up with, and I'm way too old to change my thinking or my goals now. And, Tim, just maybe, plus Champions are different because they are competing at the highest level in their age group, which makes them the best of the best in that age group. They did not get there by chance, they got there by hard work for a lot of years, and they continue to work hard to stay there. They got there by batting practice for uncounted hours and defensive abilities developed again by uncounted hours of practice. They got there by hustle and heart. They learned how to win as a team. THEY EARNED IT. I will NEVER subscribe to breaking them down.
Nov. 28, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
976 posts
Well said Mark. I agree with you!
Nov. 28, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Tate22 I absolutely agree 100% with you, especially when you ellude to succeeding thru competition and performance, not legislation. But due to my honest nature (to a fault sometimes--lol) I cannot take credit for the sentiment of "bring 'em on, we'll give it our best shot...." That was Malo37 who originally expressed that sentiment on this thread.
Nov. 28, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Webbie I don't think anyone could have stated it any better than you did. Especially about the long hours of training & practice players put in year in and year out. Congrats on Phoenix!!
Nov. 28, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Thx, stick-you guys did great also-still regret not actually meeting you.
Nov. 28, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
We'll meet up one of these tourneys Webbie. We (OKI) might be playing the TOC in Florida which I think is in mid-February, but not 100% certain yet. Are you guys going?
Nov. 28, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
I think Jdub has it right.....

BUMP THE PLUS CHAMPION up to the next level/the age group below and if needed give them the five runs or extra fielder.

Or......

Let them come back to the Plus age group they just were Champions of with no more then six Plus Champions, which by the way....is double the amount of returning players any other Division Champion is allowed to return to the same Division with.

In other words....SSUSA should stop the favoritism for Plus Champins and treat them like every other Division Champion..?..here is your ring...and you now are bumped to the next level.

Webbie....other then a 40 Plus Champion your wrong....there is always a level you can allow a Plus Champion to stay together and play in..it's called the age group below you.

I really think this is amazing....Plus Champions would be allowed to keep twice the amount of players as any other Division Champion and stay in the same Division yet....that's not fair ????

And...these so called "competitor" posting on this issue are scared to get bumped (even if the get a handicap) to a more competitive level because they happen to be the next youngest age group....

First all the crying from Plus guys about feed the Major program to us, we need more teams..... And now...

Don't treat us like every other SSUSA Champion is treated....we are "special"
Nov. 28, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
Couple of things.
Most of the times good/great players seek successful teams and are sought after by same. If management has a great organization then these two forces tend to gravitate toward each other. Success usually tends to create success not because they read their own press clippings, but because they constantly and consistently try to improve. No team starts out the season saying let’s build a .500 ball club. We are discussing a trend of encouraging apathy and average, while discouraging accomplishments and success. All softball organizations have created age banding participation for a reason. It is not reasonable to assume an older athlete will compete safely or effectively with significantly younger athletes. Regardless of our abilities, more often or not we have a tendency to play our age, most of the time more often than we wish. If a team choses to play in a younger division they should do so because they can or because they were not challenged in their current age group, not because they have to. By the way, you can’t legally require it. If an organization required you to play in a different age group because of your success then they would be open to suit.

Second. Tim, why do you care and what’s with all of the serial posting? You have the right to your opinion and to share such, but by your own admission you play very little SSUSA and don’t want to travel outside your local geographic area. If you are satisfied with NCSSA then focus your attention in that direction. I have not broken bread with you in over 20 years, but I know you to be a fierce competitor. You had no trouble cutting me when you had someone younger and bigger that could take my place. I did not hold that against you, it was your team and you were doing what you thought would make your team more successful. Worked out good for both of us. Retooling to be successful, works for me.
The only thing consistent in life is change. SSUSA will tweak the rules to the point they think it will be good for the game. Sometimes they are right sometimes they are wrong. It usually takes 2-3 years to truly evaluate the effects of changes. Personally, I don’t want to see any changes to the Plus division. I would rather play 5 or 6 really good teams than be forced to play on a team that was pulled from a hat. There is no sense of camaraderie in that type of environment.

Lastly, I challenge my teammates and my opponents. I challenge them to play their best. I want the best, the best of them and the best of me. Whatever the outcome, I am comfortable with the result, because we get to do it all over again.
Nov. 28, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
976 posts
okay where do you put the 40 major plus champions I think you need to just get out of the major plus program since you don't play in it timmy!
Nov. 28, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mike,

I don't understand the suit thing based on age?

As an example......

# Are you saying someone over 54 should not be allowed to play in the 50 age group Division?

# Are you saying SSUSA can be legally responsible if a 55 year old gets hurt by a guy under 55 in a 50 tourney?

# Are you saying SSUSA is risking a law suit when they let guys older then the age grouping CHOOSE to play in a younger age group?

.................Now on to your "they cannot legally require it" statement....

# what do you have to say about all the other Division Champs that are bumped.....is SSUSA risking a suit when they bump AA players to AAA, AAA players to Major, Major players to Plus?

Come on Mike, you know the answer to all these is questions....NO !!!

To conclude......SSUSA would be requiring any player or team to move up to the next age group.....

the BUMPED could choose to return SIX players and stay where they are.....

the BUMPED could choose to migrate to other teams in their own age group...

It's amazing how entitled some of the Plus guys are when it comes to not wanting to be treated LIKE EVERY OTHER DIVISION IN SSUSA.

Mike....I admire your willingness to post/discuss these things...open debate on important issues like this makes us have to validate our arguments.....

On that issue.....to this date no Plus supporter has been able to give a viable answer to why Plus Champions not being held to a like standard of every other Division Champion would be good for the Plus programs when it's obviously been helpful in every other Division of senior softball.
Nov. 28, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
There is a difference between choice and mandate. If rules state that anyone of a particular age can qualify in a specific group then you cannot be excluded from that group. You can be classified to a unique group by meeting specific qualifications, but you cannot be mandated to participate in a different age group. The primary challenge that would be issued is safety. You are saying because you are too good at this age, you cannot compete in this program; you must compete in a younger age group.

You are mixing analogies. If the governing body states by rules that you cannot have x number of players on a team competing in the following year after winning the preceding year at a specific level, then by default they must drop players to play. You are unable to mandate that they change levels as a team if they remain together. They would be classified as ineligible, if they chose to remain together as a team then it would be their choice. Now taking it one step further, if there was no higher classification then I suggest that it would be difficult to require them to break up, if they were playing at the highest level. Just my opinion.

Now to your suggestion that Plus players feel entitled and are not wanting to be treated the same as everyone else. I disagree, very simply. This is the highest level available for play, thus by rule there is nowhere to go. If the governing body of an organization rules that there is no desire/market for competition at that level, they can classify a team as being ineligible to compete. Thus organizations established Super Major, AA, A, Rec, Industrial, coed, senior, I could go on. No organization every stated that a Super Major team had to play at the Super Duper level. Certain local organizations indicate they will accept no teams higher than level X and boot them if the teams are too strong. That is acceptable by their governing rules, arbitrary, but acceptable.

Litigation is a crap shoot at best. There are number of lawyers that play senior softball and the best ones are the ones that can find case law to make their point. You can litigate anything you just may not win even if you are righteous in your position. Notice I did not say right. Bottom line - In my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, but I know a few, requiring a team to play in a younger age division because of their success in a qualified existing age group is a losing proposition. In fact, I suggest that the complaint would be filed, the defendant would file an answer and the plaintiff would file a motion for summary judgment, game, set match.

Nov. 28, 2012
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Tim, I kind of have to agree with Mike:

"Tim, why do you care and what’s with all of the serial posting? You have the right to your opinion and to share such, but by your own admission you play very little SSUSA and don’t want to travel outside your local geographic area. If you are satisfied with NCSSA then focus your attention in that direction."

IMHO, you spend too much Time & Effort Rambling on Subjects that don't affect you directly. Just like on The Old Scout, you harped on Subjects, and you don't even participate in USSSA anymore. You seem to think you Speak for the Majority regarding Fair Play! Why do you care so much? What is your Agenda? I personally think you have OCD Tendancies, and just can't help yourself. You drove everyone Krazy on The Old Scout, and your starting to do it here! Again, this is just IMHO ! ! !


Regards,
Jeff White
Arizona Elite
Nov. 28, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Stick-not going to TOC-GSF is gone from last year. Good luck to you, though, it is a fun time. Hope it's not as cold as the last 2 yrs.
Nov. 28, 2012
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Here are some of my Opinions on the Topic of Discussion:

1) Get rid of Senior Bats (LOL)!

2) 70' Bases are Perfect.

3) No Screens on the Ball Field.

4) Leave the Arc Limit at 6' - 12'
* I Umpire as well, and 12' is higher than 10'. I believe many prefer 10', and Whine when Pitchers use all 12' (IMHO). This is the same as Arguing Balls & Strikes (IMHO)!


Regards,
Jeff White
Arizona Elite
Nov. 28, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
Thanks Webbie. I've played the TOC twice (did lousy both times) and got lucky with the weather--it was the same as it was in Arizona two weeks ago. Did winning in Arizona qualify you for the TOC in 2014?
Nov. 28, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Stick-yes it did, and I do hope we go. They do try to show you a special time. Gee, 2014 talk already. Amazing!
Nov. 28, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
Tim
It is obvious you are very passionate about your theory on the “problem” with major plus. And I appreciate your passion. However, I’m not sure your premise about the low number of teams at the plus level is correct. You postulate that it is due to “Dynasty” teams frightening the borderline major teams that would otherwise move up.

Well if your premise were correct then we should see a host of borderline major teams, including yours, ready to move up since there have been three different champions in the past 3 years at the plus level. Do you believe that will happen this year? That’s a rhetorical question-we both know the answer to that. And I believe as someone has pointed out- you are on record as saying if the dynasty teams were removed you STILL would not play plus. So those are 2 pretty compelling pieces of evidence that your premise is incorrect about the low number of teams at the plus level.

If those two are not enough there is more empirical evidence that disproves your theory. Look at the very similar number of teams in the AA World (10) compared to the Plus World (7). Yet the AA champions get moved up, so there are no “Dynasty” teams at the AA level. And we see their participation rate is roughly the same as Plus. If your “theory” were correct then we should see AA division as robust as the AAA and Major divisions. It is not, and is further evidence that your theory is incorrect. I suggest its time to find a new theory.

An alternate, more plausible, theory is this is the natural order of things. That you are going to have outliers at both ends of the skill spectrum. A natural bell curve if you will. The average will bunch to the middle while the extremes will be at both ends.

As someone who has played Major Plus 7 out of my 8 years in Senior Softball I appreciate all the hard work you've done as a major player trying to solve the Plus “problem”. However I must say that some of the AA players have shared with me privately that they feel quite slighted that you haven’t given as much passion, attention and effort to fix their “problem”. I’m sure they are anxiously waiting for you to come up with a theory to explain the low numbers at AA and fix their problem.

Mango

Nov. 28, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mango, can you name the last time your group played in the 50 plus program and didn't play late Sunday? Finals?

Did any of the guys that were on your team before your team broke up before worlds two years ago play on other teams? Did their team play late Sunday? Finals?

And...... The reason I started thinking about what was holding Plus back from having a healthy program was because I got sick and tired of reading/hearing Plus guys crying about the need to merge with Major because they didn't have enough teams to play.

As I have asked before of others....So here goes... Hope your the first to enlighten me....

Mango, can you tell me why a healthy thing used to turn over the top teams and keep dynastys out in every other Divisin of senior ball is not good for the Plus program?

I mean really..... It's not like your team doesn't change players when new great ones come along.... Limiting you to six returnees after you guys won your worlds would do nothing more then weaken you guys " a little" and make another one or two senior (hopefully Plus teams) stronger.
Nov. 29, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
80 posts
Tim,
You are missing the point. It is not “turning over the top” that accounts for the larger number of teams in Major and AAA. If “turning over the top” were a magic panacea then you would have more teams in AA.

For the sake of argument. lets say I accept your premise =that health is determined by the number of teams in a division, which in turn is a result of “turning over the top”. Then your theory still collapses because the AA division is small yet they “turn over the top”. There are no “Dynasty” teams. If turning over the top leads to health- then AA should have more teams. But they don’t. Do you see how the math doesn't add up in your theory?

What you are doing is looking at Plus and saying, “what is different?” Your answer- the winner doesn't leave. Then you erroneously conclude that this must be the cause of the low number of teams. But its not. Because if that were the case AA would have a larger number of teams based on your theory.

However- what you should do is look at AA and Plus and ask- “How are they similar? Answer- the skill level of both divisions is at the extreme ends of the spectrum.
There are fewer really good players than average players, and fewer really bad players than average players. And those players participate in the highest and lowest divisions. Its simple math.

And I believe the bell curve is a much better theory. At least there is no evidence to the contrary like in your theory. I know you love your theory and are committed to it. But it just doesn't make sense and you yourself have disproved it with your own words. Please consider the bell curve theory as an alternate, better theory. Or explain the low numbers in AA (remember they are bitter you have devoted all your energy to the “plus problem” and neglected fixing them).

Mango
Nov. 29, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
976 posts
Mango, hit's it out of the Park! Mango, Tim won't get off his soap box, he's more persitant than G19 Bashing of Special bats! I never seen someone so scared of being bumbed to Major Plus! Sad!
Nov. 29, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
976 posts
I have never seen OBv
Nov. 29, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
976 posts
Tim, What's MTC 55 think about your theory on M+ ball.. They are dominating 55+ so by your opinion they should be bumped down to 50+ or Broken up. I wonder if Eakon would want to spend his money doing this!
Nov. 29, 2012
softball4b
Men's 60
706 posts
Tim so you now want Melissa Rycroft, latest DWTS winner, to only dance against professionals. Say it ain't so. I mean really she only won once, does that mean she can come back and dance again, but can't dance with Tony. I am appalled and at a loss.
Nov. 29, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Mango,

Once again Mango, it is my belief that ssusa should be trying as hard as possible to evenly disperse the talent as much as possible in an attempt to broaden the base and create a bell more shaped like LAFFERS.

To do this requires making sure the talented/dynasty/Champion teams get spread around "some" to do a few things...

# weaken their own Dynasty/champions

# have some of their Dynasty/Champions move to other teams to strengthen them

# weaken the Dynasty/Champions just a little so Major teams start to move up and be able to Compete

Your opposite end of the bell curve concept has some merit, after hearing all the CRYING from PLUS about we need to merge Major, Can I assume you were never for such an idea.

If we are to look at the AA Division......they are the entry level...there are no new 50 year olds lining up to try softball...so there is nor field of teams waiting to move up.

If we look at Plus...

What it comes down to, is right now, many Plus Divisions are barely surviving... In many events during the year Plus teams dont have valid tourneys to go to...

How best to split the bell into four buckets...hopefully close to evenly dispersed...I say the answer is REMAKING Plus Dynasty/Champions into teams that resemble something Closer to the average Plus team.

If, as it appears is obvious, there are 1,2 or 3 Dynasty type teams in almost every Plus Division...are these teams keeping to Plus Division from being able to entice the top 10-15 % of the Major Division from going up...or more precisely...doubling the total amount of Plus teams? I say yes

Now...the question...how to get Major teams to move and stay up in Plus?

I say do it exactly like ssusa is growing the AAA and Major Divisions....

weaken the dynasty teams in those Divisions....in AAA and Major SSUSA is doing this well by making sure the Dynasty/Champion teams are only allowed to return to the same Division with a limited amount of players (3) this means the Dynasty's have two choices..move out/up or break up and have all the players disperse throughout the program...both are healthy as far as I am concerned.....

Mango...would you not agree that it's healthy for the AAA and Major Divisions for SSUSA to do this?

Using this in use process...could we not assume that if SSUSA made Plus live by those same rules...more teams would have a chance to believe they can compete, and more Major teams would migrate up thereby making the Plus program larger.

I really liked the notion mentioned to me of no Plus team can have more then 8 in age Plus rings on a roster......ie...your team wins once, 8 players can return, you win again....each of your 8 players now has two in age Plus rings...only four of you can be on a "in age" Plus team because each of you has two rings.... This regulation starts over when you reach the next age group.

I guess what it comes down to Mango is...I think the numbers (lack of numbers in the Plus programs) have proven its not healthy to have the same group of players year in and year out fighting late Sunday for the rings.

Somehow...to create a flatter/broader based LAFFERS bell curve....the top teams need to be watered down to more closely resemble the average.
Nov. 29, 2012
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
GET RID OF TM50+, SENIOR BATS AND NO NEED FOR UNLIMITED ARC, SCREENS, HOCKEY GEAR AND/OR FOR THIS THREAD TO GROW AND GROW AND GROW . . . BLAH, BLAH, BLAH ! ! !


Regards,
Jeff White (LMFAO)
Nov. 29, 2012
curveball
Men's 65
395 posts
There's no way Major+ champs should or will be dispersed, it just doesn't make sense. I can see 70' bases, possibly less HR's and runs per innings to speed up the games, and not much else. No way the screen is put in play, not yet anyway. Senior bats are a no brainer, they'll stay also.
Nov. 29, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
I promised myself I would stay out of this, but then again I promised myself I would quit playing ball and I just can't cure the softball sickness..... I also have to say my one final piece so here goes......

NO WAY should any team be required to break up. PERIOD!!!!! This is fun! What makes it fun is competing against the best with people that you really care about, my brothers from other mothers! If someone made our team break up I'd rather not play than have to retool This isn't a job it's fun. If teams don't want to play against the best competition then don't!! No one forces any manager or sponsor to play in a tourney against better competition. This post is unbelieveable, there's just one person complaining about the plus division and he doesn't even play in it. Our team is a 50 major team and we enjoy playing against the +division when given the opportunity. Tim before you say (again), why don't we join the plus division, that's our decision not yours. However, we're happy to compete with them. Get off the soapbox, just because you say it doesn't make it right. Now I'm done!!!
Nov. 29, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
By the Way this is
Dave Quiroz #37
AZ ELITE
I'm easy to find
Nov. 29, 2012
TGIII
Men's 60
89 posts
After reading all of the e-mails I can't help but offer an opinion. In major+ as well as all of the other divisions, all teams are not created equal. I am not a major+ player or a player on a major+ team. I agree that breaking up the teams is not an option in my opinion. But I would offer up the idea of an equalizer. How about any Major+ team that wins a major championship or has a game winning percentage over the course of the year at or above 75% that they give other Major+ teams not rated at that level a run for each inning played. This option might help the newcomer Major+ teams to be competitive with the longstanding teams. JMHO.
Nov. 29, 2012
TGIII
Men's 60
89 posts
An idea for the base dimensions:

40+ - 60+ divisions 70' bases
65+ - 80+ and all women's divisions 65' bases.

Just a thought.
Nov. 29, 2012
Malo37
52 posts
By the Way this is
Dave Quiroz #37
AZ ELITE
I'm easy to find
Nov. 29, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
Tim-your post from Nov. 28 is pure redistribution, nothing less. Ok, take 60 M+ this year-Turn Two is the closest to a dynasty-they won Dalton but came in third in Vegas. Hollis won Reno, Vegas, and I'm sure several other tournaments but came in 5th in Dalton out of 5 teams. GSF came in second almost everywhere-Dalton, Reno, Vegas. So-which of these teams do we break up? Is it Hollis because they won World's? Turn Two because they won a few before? GSF because they were right there in the mix on all tournaments? Joe Browns All Stars won Winter World-do we get broken up now? Tim-I really disagree with you. IMHO.
Nov. 29, 2012
donll
55 posts
Tim breaks them all up so he doesn't have to play them. That's his real agenda. He's finished in the top 10% of all 50 teams this year but doesn't want to play in with the rest of the top 10% of those teams. He wants to get rid of any team he thinks is better than his.
Nov. 30, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1932 posts
donll-interesting. I just asked what his real agenda was on a different thread and here is your answer. If they are in danger of being moved up, that explains it. Rather than improve to compete, lets tear down the successful teams. Whatever happened to the competitive spirit? Come on, Tim. If you have been successful enough at major to get moved up, then man up and play Plus.

Hollis beat us 6 in a row, most of them pretty badly. Who do I want to play the most?? HOLLIS
Nov. 30, 2012
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Tim,

1) Salary Cap has nothing to do with where else the Yankees are to "Play Up" as a Dynasty Team. BTW, we have a Salary Cap as well . . .

2) Resmondo Type Teams are not Killing USSSA, Participation/Economy is. I would like to see those Teams Broken up as well, but that isn't going to happen in USSSA either . . .

3) We aren't "Escared" to Play M+ Teams, but we haven't Won our Respective World in Major (yet)! Teams want to Earn that Right first, Playing into the M+ Level full time. Again, we are a Low Budget, all Arizona Team, Not Merging with Nazareno to Build a Super Team ! ! !

4) Just like your MTC Team, we are built Locally, and because of our Salary Cap, We can't afford to Travel the country in search of M+ Tournaments. We also enjoy being able to Play in our own back yard just like your MTC Team does. Unfortunately, we don't have the Population, Players, and/or multiple sanctions to support our Hobby like the State of California does. Therefore, we have to Travel a bit more than your MTC Dynasty Team does . . .

Tim, MTC placed 3rd in Major - Correct? If I recall correctly, don't the Top 3 Finishing Teams Move Up in USSSA? I don't recall the Specifics, but I'm sure someone does (Tim)! C'mon Tim, Dazzle (or Baffle) us with more BS on how it Effects all other Teams, just not your MTC Team ! ! !

So tell us all Tim, who is "Escared" to Move-up and Play Major Plus? Should SSUSA Adopt the same Move Up Rule as USSSA? What would your MTC Team do? Break up so you can stay in Major and/or Play Down? Remember, California is a Big State! You have the Population, so I'm sure you have Plenty of Player/Friends - Correct ? ? ?


Regards,
Jeff White #7
Arizona Elite
Nov. 30, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
JDub in USSSA the teams who finish in top 10% of the world tournaments by rule are move up teams. IOW if 60 teams are entered in the world tourney those who finish 1st thru 6th place are move up teams.
Nov. 30, 2012
JDub
Men's 50
131 posts
Shhhh, we all want to hear Tim's Version (LMAO) ! ! !
Nov. 30, 2012
Tim Millette
465 posts
Jeff and strat8 Utrip does not have a 10% bump duke for the top two Divisiins......in the old days... USSSA usually made sure the winner of the second teir Division had a few of there top players adds to the Major list to weaken them just a little (I know this to be true because they did it to our team one year).

If you want to lok at my past input in USSSA/ASA it has always been that leaving the top/major Division's rosters unregulated stifles growth and actually reduces team participation.
I have supported styongly regulating the top Divisions rosters. Especially for dynasty/champions

Jeff...... Above anyone else on this Board you have to know how I feel about this issue (the old scout?).

What I am saying about senior plus is exactly what I have been saying about the USSSA Major Division, and the ASA Super Division before it was elimInated.

Maybe TGILL came up with another option to consider just a few posts up..... Plus Champions can stay in the same Division but they have to give a handicap to non/Plus Champions during. Bracket play...

In the end.... No one can say plus is healthy right now..... Hence all the crying from us teams about merging major....again.... All I am doing is bringing up concepts that might help Plus grow in a healthier direction.
Nov. 30, 2012
stick8
1238 posts
"Plus Champions can stay in the same Division but they have to give a handicap to non/Plus Champions during. Bracket play"
Tim with all due respect I believe that's about as silly an option as it gets.
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