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Ronnie Ratliffe
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Men's 70
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| Oct. 29, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: Yet another you make the call Stick8 - that’s what I’m trying to do, just need your input on the “ghost” and “phantom” player you referenced earlier as that player plays a big part in my answer, thanks for the help. It will all be revealed soon, after I get your valuable input. |
| Oct. 29, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: Yet another you make the call Stick8 - give me the location in the rule book where you find the “ghost” and “phantom” player so I can finish my response to fuzz, thanks Mck71 - hard to answer your questions in your post just above, maybe you should answer why someone would be stupid enough not to either list this “player” we are all talking about as either in the starting lineup section or available substitute section for this game. But you’ve already answered above that you fit this category also. |
| Oct. 28, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: Yet another you make the call Stick8 - OK, during the discord between the two coaches or managers of the opposing team I would use the question of compliance to reenforce that a violation had occurred that had adversely affected the game. That justifies declaring a forfeit as I interpret and apply the rules. Something happening 6 yrs ago is not a part of this discussion, same as the “ghost or phantom” players you alluded to In your earlier post. I looked long and hard and couldn’t find reference to either in. The rule book. DM - Stick8 was the one that witnessed the fiasco that resulted in this discussion not me. It is what it is. I see it one way and you see it a different way. If I were the umpire in the original post, I would support the protest that would result in a forfeit and I have the rule book to support such decision and you have……………nothing. |
| Oct. 28, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: Yet another you make the call Fuzz - Everyone likes to talk about "spirit/intent" of a rule, explain that to Team B who probably loses a game, in this instance as stated in the original post, "SSUSA world tournament game." because they followed the rules, their opponent did not, and the officials in charge of this game do not adhere to the rules either. You say he was on the roster and legal to play, OK then why wasn't he listed on the OFFICIAL line-up card as required by 4.2.A & B. A rule is a rule is a rule. I didn't even mention other rules that were violated: 7.1 Batting Order A & B as well as 7.1 (1) Batter eligibility Others responding to this forum discussion are trying "to fit" an explanation into the circumstances of this game to somehow save face and justify their position, I am just asking that the rules of the game to be followed, by the teams and the rules to be enforced by the umpires and officials running the tournament. If I were the sponsor for Team B, I would ask for the entry fee to be refunded because my team was not treated fairly. |
| Oct. 28, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: Yet another you make the call BJ - When you say i have once again made a statement against the offending team that was not in the OP, please read thoroughly what is being discussed. My reference in my last post states that the offense is not brought to anyone's attention until the 4th inning. Even if you were the manager of Team A you and all the other members of that team would realize that after two and possibly three rotations of the batting order that you were doing something wrong. they have chosen to let this continue, they are flat out cheating. Or do you have or anyone else have a better description, like "having a senior moment"? Tim & DM - I have much respect for officials in all sports but i can't accept the explanations given to me in the instance above. Wording like "1) Because the 11th spot in the lineup does not exist (was not on the official scorecard), the offense CANNOT put a substitute in for that player, even if it had one. And because the spot in the batting order does not exist, the offended team CANNOT be granted an out every time that “spot” comes up again in the order." I contend again, that the offense didn't attempt to put in a substitute, they ADDED the 11th spot ILLEGALLY. When you violate a rule, you are to be punished, not rewarded. What if this player assisted his team in scoring 2,3,4 or more runs in the 4 innings that he illegally participated in? On the flip side, i have a written rule that was violated and justification for allowing the protested forfeit to stand. Rule 4.2.A & B If this happened again, knowing what you know now, would you render the same ruling? It appears to me that a better ruling could have been made based on the rule set available. Sometimes even when best intentions are our goal, we are wrong. |
| Oct. 27, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: Yet another you make the call DM - situation #1 you are referring to sounds like the opposing team catches the infraction the first time the “non listed” player bats. The OP situation occurs in the 4th inning? Something nefarious is going on because the offending team has to realize they have violated the rule, whether intentional or not. By not making this known, they are cheating, period. To blame the lady keeping the scorebook or calling this a senior moment are both copouts. Whomever lets this slide whether umpire on field, UIC, tournament director, or someone from the SSUSA home office, the offended team didn’t get the fair shake that they are entitled to. I would hope that all involved would have more integrity than to “explain with excuses” a decision that wasn’t fair and equitable. I for one would not be a part of any such decision. This is my personal position, once again based on rule of play, circumstances as they unfolded on the field of play, and my personal experiences and judgment developed over my years of playing and umpiring. |
| Oct. 27, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: Yet another you make the call IF, and that’s quite a large two letter word, I were umpiring I would ask the manager of Team A, did you comply with the requirements of Rule 4.2.A & B? And the answer is no, so therefore they are in violation of the requirements established by Rule and SSUSA and I would declare a forfeit. An umpires duties are to manage, orchestrate play, enforce the association rules, and use all their skills and experience to provide a fair and equitable field of play for both teams. Any other ruling is unfair to Team B who has complied as far as we know. One cannot say that there is nothing in the rule book that specifically covers this situation, Rule 4.2.A & B set forth requirements for play, these were violated by inserting a player neither listed on the official line-up card or listed as an available substitute for this game. My earlier post was simply to ask others to apply the rule and make a decision. You have my ruling with supporting document. |
| Oct. 26, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: Yet another you make the call I'm not very well versed on the subject of this post but have question that hopefully can be answered by those commenting previously. I copied 4.2 with A and B SSUSA Rule Book Section 4 4.2 • ROSTER RESTRICTIONS A team roster is limited to two times the number of defensive players allowed for that team. For teams that play with 10 defensive players, the limit is 20 members. For teams that play with 11 or 12 defensive players, the limits are 22 and 24 members, respectively. A non-playing manager and coach(es) are not included in this player count. A team must have the required number of players present in the dugout or team area to start or continue a game. Players listed in the starting lineup and not available at game time may be substituted for and re-entered later. A. Official lineup cards are to be completed and submitted to the official scorer or umpire at the start of each game. The lineup shall contain the first and last name, position and uniform number of each player. NOTE: If a wrong number is on the lineup sheet, correct it and continue playing with no penalty. B. All available substitutes shall be listed in the designated place by their last name, first name and uniform number. My question is a part of the original post, Why couldn't the Team B request for forfeit not be upheld? Rule 4.2.A and B clearly state that all available starting players and substitute players shall be listed on the official line up card in their appropriate places. Makes no reference that if they are on the official roster that they are automatically included as an entry for A or B ?? If this 11th player has been purposely inserted into the lineup without being listed as required by rule 4.2.A and B and has contributed to the scoring of the game to the detriment of Team B and their ability to win the contest, why is this not clearly an intentional breach of the rules and not a viable protest for a forfeit to be declared? None of the argument about legal or illegal substitution and protest before next pitch, etc, declaration of an out or batting out of order, same protest for out prior to next pitch, etc as covered by RULE apply as this is a "player" not listed at game time on the official lineup card either in the starting lineup or as an available substitute. Again, I'm asking for you guys to clarify as I surely don't know what to call, just what I see in the rules. I think it is more serious than what has been addressed in posts above. thx |
| Oct. 25, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: You make the call - please txnighttrain - I'm sure there are a lot of folks on here struggling to understand what you have posted. It's the umpire's judgement whether or not the batter deliberately hit the ball? BJ clearly posted the rule as it appears in the SSUSA Rulebook: 7.6 • BATTER IS OUT E. When the batter bunts or chops the ball, or does not take a full swing when deliberately hitting a pitched ball. So in your scenario, repeating the original post, batter started to swing, checked his swing, but miraculously the ball hit the bat or the bat hit the ball, but NOW 1) the ball rolled to a fielder and he threw out one of the runners. UMPIRE declares for all to hear, "he didn't deliberately hit that ball" what is the call? or 2) ball was hit too slowly for anyone to make a play on a runner. Does the UMPIRE again declare for all to hear, "he didn't deliberately hit that ball" what is the call now? Try to use Rule 7.6.E and any other rule in the rule book to make your call, and what is the Effect? Do over? |
| Oct. 21, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: General and miscellaneous Discussion: Another: You make the call B.J. Nah, you know better, we agree on many issues and once you answer the OP there is no need to chime in with same answer. I really just wanted to support your answer because you included reference directly from the rule book and i also wanted to address Dbax and his smart alec post above. :) |
| Oct. 20, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: General and miscellaneous Discussion: Perspectives: Laughing at yourself Bruce M. - I’d give you ++ for both of those, can’t make this stuff up. I’ll have to remember the T-ball accusation, that’s classic. Wait til you’re in the 70+ age group, we get a lot of second looks but for a lot of different reasons. Got to love it |
| Oct. 20, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: General and miscellaneous Discussion: Another: You make the call B.J. good job answering the OP question and providing an applicable rule Dbax - trolling as usual, it's what you do best apparently............ |
| Oct. 19, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: You make the call - please jimperry19 - not really sure who you are or why you commented? Do you have something to contribute or just sit on the sidelines and criticize? I surely don't need you to jump on here after all of the discussions that have developed to tell me anything. I have a wife of 50 years that tells me often enough what to do. You have a nice day Mr jimperry19 and maybe you will come back when you have something to contribute. Stronger words apply, but I won't stoop to your level. |
| Oct. 19, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: You make the call - please BJ - I didn't ask DD to agree with me. He posted above in response to the original post and immediately after your first post and mine also. His position being the same as my position. He then responded a second time to your insistence on either of us producing a rule explaining what a checked swing is. The original post called the batters swing, a "checked" swing which as Dave alluded to in his second post can not in any way be compared to a full swing. The rule is clear, the batter came to bat with full intentions to hit the ball, made contact without a full swing and produced a slow roller toward 3rd base that couldn't be fielded in time to produce an out. OK, he didn't deliberately chop the ball, so no violation of the rule. OK, he didn't slide his hand down the barrel of the bat and bunt the ball, so no violation of the rule. OK, but he did not take a full swing when he hit the ball, he was in control and deliberately stopped his SWING. Both you and DCPete acknowledge that he intentionally, deliberately stopped his swing. Everything he did was deliberate, didn't have to intentionally make contact but he did WITHOUT taking a full swing. Without calling an out, you penalize the defense for something that is out of their control, BUT clearly covered by rule and award the batter for doing something that is not allowed under the rules. And yes, there have been instances that DD and I have disagreed, so with him agreeing with me adds substance to both of our positions. I think there are times when you have either agreed with DD or enlisted his input when you and I, or others, have differed. What now, you completely discount his opinion when it doesn't fit your agenda? Reply if you'd like, but the rule book supports my interpretation. |
| Oct. 18, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: You make the call - please BJ & DCPete - there is an old saying, “there’s only two ways to argue with a woman…………….and neither one works”. I have to put you two in the same category . DD is one of the Sr Softball USA officials and we both agree on the ruling, once again based on the circumstances, written rules, and experienced umpire judgment. That’s all I’ve got, enjoy any further discussions. |
| Oct. 18, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: You make the call - please BJ The positioning of the word deliberately in the sentence doesn't change the rule in any way. The batter enters the box with full intentions to hit the ball, his bat hits the ball but he has stopped his swing, STOPPED HIS SWING. You capitalized FULL SWING above, he does not take a full swing. You see it, you have said it, you have fully endorsed the written rule, yet you still try to justify some other interpretation of the written rule. 7.6 BATTER IS OUT E. When the batter bunts or chops the ball, or does not take a full swing when deliberately hitting a pitched ball. So above is the rule, am I understanding you to say that he accidentally hit the ball? What's next, a do over? Batter says, "oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hit that pitch? Throw me another pitch. What if he checked his swing and hit a foul on his third strike? Oh I'm sorry I didn't deliberately hit that foul, give me another pitch. I'll say it one last time, A GOOD UMPIRE KNOWS WHAT THE CORRECT CALL IS |
| Oct. 18, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: You make the call - please BJ I'm not on here to argue, but i will emphasize two sentences and copy them from the original post, i don't know how to highlight or underline in these posts so here are those two sentences. 1 - Rule 7.6.E says Batter is Out if they deliberately Bunt, Chop Down or fail to take a Full Swing at a pitched ball. copied from OP Note the wording, "fail to take a full swing at a pitched ball". 2. A left-handed Batter started to swing at an outside pitch but actually checked their swing at the last second. copied from OP Note the wording, "started to swing ............... checked their swing at the last second. Now your last sentence in the post directly above, “the batter ACTUALLY CHECKED HIS SWING “ there should be no call on this play other than. Play On Play on is correct, with the batter out for failing to comply with Rule 7.6.E and all base runners returning from the base that they occupied prior to the pitched ball being struck "in a manner other than a full swing" In your sentence, You have reinforced every aspect of the rule but fail in enforcing the rule. |
| Oct. 18, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: You make the call - please So the scenario below happens often in Senior softball: Batter takes a mighty swing and for whatever reason, the ball snibs the bat and slowly rolls somewhere in the infield and no one can make a play on the ball, usually because most of us are a bit slow a foot. Play on, defense make a play if you can, runner hustle to first with an infield single and umpire really has nothing to call. In the situation described in original post, there was no "swing" instead the batter checked his swing, but as happens often, misjudged the flight of the ball and the position of his bat and inadvertently ? or deliberately ? hits a slow roller somewhere in the infield that none of the fielders have an opportunity to make a play on. The umpire now plays an important role in the game to interpret the written rules. In first paragraph, there is a swing, in the second paragraph, there is no swing. An umpire's job is to use the rule book to render a fair and equitable ruling and when necessary he interjects his judgment into the call. Good umpires know what this call should be. |
| Oct. 17, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: Rules of the game Discussion: You make the call - please DCPete - Your post stated that the batter checked his swing, which an umpire should interpret as he "did not swing", instead barely BUNTING?? the ball slowly down the third base line. I would interpret this as a violation of Rule 7.6.E that you reference and call him out. This is quite a bit different than a skilled hitter taking what many view as a "half or three quarter" swing to place the ball between defenders as BJ has referenced. These are still swings, the checked swing slow roller is akin to a drag bunt in baseball which is not allowed in slow pitch softball, hence the out call. |
| Sept. 22, 2021 Turning2 | Topic: General and miscellaneous Discussion: Dave Dowell DD Recognition for a Good job, well done. Peer recognition and respect may be the highest form of acknowledgement that sports participants can ask for. |
