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Discussion: TOURNAMENT WINNER AUTO MOVEUP

Posted Discussion
July 9, 2012
Senior Moments
Men's 60
57 posts
TOURNAMENT WINNER AUTO MOVEUP
Anyone like to share their opinion on the "auto moveup" rule for winning a national event?

As with most any title, winners should get a chance to defend their title. Most of
the tournament winners could just have easily finished 2-3 spots lower.

What is wrong with allowing a team to defend their title? There are already limits
to how many upper division players they can add and remain the same class.

Just asking?
July 9, 2012
coop3636
57 posts
I agree with you.
A team should not be moved up until they win the Nationals in a division 2 times.
I have seen where a team gets moved up when they win a tournament with only 2 teams in it. It is totally unfair.
I always like to defend my title.
Just my 2 cents
Coop3636
July 9, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
395 posts
A case can be made to give a team 2 championships in say AA instead of moving them up to AAA for winning the national championship.
My experience (about 16 years in senior softball) is that a team will put together a AAA team to win the AA and the other teams know this. Some teams will not go to the nationals and play for 2nd place if you allow the AAA team stay down at AA for 2 national championships.
The team I play on this year won SPA championship in AA last year. The team is rated AAA this year (my 1st year with team) and I think it is a great rule.
July 9, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I partly agree on the concept here, however since SSUSA has used the roster within this area, I honestly think they will be watching who plays where and how often with any team.
i think it was about time roster check were used for this reason. Some teams moved up from AA because if this check.
I do also feel that many teams that played in Reno are very capable of moving up from where they currently are. On the other side of the coin there are a few that could or should get a move down.
In the ruled area the bottom link has some or all of the factors used listed.
July 9, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
crusher,i completely agree,ya win,ya move.....quit the damn crying and move up,ya already won one title....i don't know of any assoc(young ball,or senior)that allows you to stay down after winning.....

just a little story

when i first started playing senior ball it was on a new team and we started at AA(back then we started at AA),we won just a qualifier(in july),our only win for any qualifier up till then...we got bump b/c a team wrote a letter(saying we beat them in local play so we needed to be rank the higher team) to Sacramento office saying they should be AA and we AAA,they got their wish and we were bumped up.we did the appeal process to no avail.we had no more qualifier's to help our team,so we went with what we had....first year of westerns in Sunnyvale,ca(august)we had to go as AAA if we wanted to play in it....we had our plans set(tourney fee sent),so it was either back out and loose money,or go and play......we played and lo and behold we won it(actually won the first 2 westerns in our div,AAA then M next year)...
the other got dropped to AA for the worlds and ran thru it with no comp what so ever...

TG2,hope u enjoyed the AA champ....oh we also won the east/west game and just missed the triple-slam by finishing 2nd.......

so i guess i'm saying move up and take the challenge.....
July 9, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Well, I have seen J U entertainment get bumbed up this year and they haven't won a thing... They did win the Winter worlds last year in Vegas, but since then haven't won anything.. My Feeling is they should rate the players and if there is a significant number of top shelf players on a roster they get bumped up... If your team wins the Worlds and I mean the big one, you should expect to be bumped! I have no problem with that... Winter worlds is another story... not that many teams in Winter worlds to warrant a bump for winning it! IMO
July 9, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
I don't think that a team should be moved up just based on winning a National event. The "powers that be" should look at your team's body of work for the entire year. They should also take in to account how dominant you were against teams in the same classification. Most every team has a streak where everything is going well (hitting and defense, etc.) and you can actually beat teams that are better than you. Many teams avoid going to Reno because they have learned that winning a Championship in May in Reno almost always guarantees that you will get bumped. At least, that is what I have been told by lots of players who have been playing in SSUSA for a long time.
July 9, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I did not see JU Ent listed here but I do know they are not winning many games in norcal. (NCSSA)
Scanned over 50-60's here.
Listed at about #16 on NCSSA.
July 9, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
I think a team should be able to defend their title IF they stay with pretty much the same roster, what percentage can be debated. If they pick up a bunch of different/better players and try to stay at the same classification, they are trying to sandbag. In that case they should be moved up.
July 9, 2012
GI
Men's 60
164 posts
I am not sure but winning a national tournament does not always mean a move up. A team out of AZ. has won the Winter worlds Nov.2011 and now have won the Spring Worlds in Vegas April 2012 and I believe are still listed as AAA in 55 division. It can be a very difficult decision when deciding to move up or down a team. I know we took our lumps after winning worlds 3 years ago and were bumped up after losing over half our team. We played out the whole year and after the year were able to move back down to AAA.One of the rewards for success is moving up and seeing how you will compete. If you show that you can play at level you will stay if not you can ask to move back down after the proper period of time. I am thankful for this chance to compete no matter what the level. Love of the game and sharing time is still why I continue to show up.
July 9, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Taits, JU was bumped from AAA to major this year.. I'm not sure how long ago but did see it on a USA thread of who was moved up.
July 9, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Oops, Taits, I didn't see them listed either but know they were moved up, they were in our division this weekend... They might be under Avenue Towing... However, I don't see them either but did talk to a few of them and they are not happy about the move up.. I say a team like JU or Ave Towing is probably were they should of been in AAA.. I know they have a good AAA team and will most likely struggle in Major. Player ratings would fix this. Who Cares was bumped and I know this team also.. They have zero business in Majors, but would be a competitive team in AAA.. Show me what they have won to warrant a bump or who is on their team!
July 9, 2012
d45
136 posts
Gentlemen, I believe the only time an auto moveup is when you win the Phoenix Worlds, which now is the Las Vegas World
Masters. Another way of getting "bumped"
up is winning several or more national events, then they can bump up a team base on performance. This is SSUSA's criteria. I know a team that won Phoenix in 2010 and was bumped up to the next level. The best they have done since is 3-3. Uuually they don't win more than a game or two, so I agree that it isn't always the best to automatically bump up a team to the next level.
July 9, 2012
B.K.
24 posts
I think the auto move up should be after the season is over. The reason is. When No Dice played in the western nationals in 55 AAA, in Salt Lake City a few years ago, it was stated in the rules that the winner would play the Eastern champs for the national title. Well, we won the 5 team tourney. So we went to Phoenix for the worlds and were told that we had been moved up to Majors, which wasnt a problem. But we were not allowed to play for the National title for 55AAA, because we were moved up. So they gave us a co-championship trophy and let the runner-up play for the title, but they played the Eastern Champs. Now why didnt the eastern champs get moved up after they won their title. We play for the love of the game, but that left a sour taste with us.
July 10, 2012
turn2
486 posts
We have been playing for 8 years now and where are all the major winners that got moved up to major plus.
In SPA I have seen only 2 teams out od the last 8 years to actually move up to the next level.
Where are all of the Phoenix winners from the major division from those same years?
I did see Ruth move up 1 year and then go back to major but have not seen any other teams.
Most teams find a way to stay down if they do not want to move up. Most peolpe perceive major plus as the death penalty becasue there are not many teams to play against, but the ones that are in major plus are really strong and the best around. When you beat one of these 6 or 7 team you have accomplished a grat deal.

Later
Donnie
Turn Two
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Avenue towing is there as of last month review date. SSUSA used to put OTHER names teams used not a good thing to leave AKA names out.
I do not feel there is consistency across the board in ratings on how, when or why done anywhere. I have seen teams win 5 in what I'd call major event is the past and still stayed in AA. Even lately there are a few with 3, I believe.

BK
On that mention about winning and being moved up to play east\west play off, I thought you play for that at the level you won it in, not at where they sent you.
I think you got screwed there.

Winning one championship is great but moving up because of only THAT WIN I don't think is right. Especially if the others you played in either had 4 teams of less or you placed less than third or fourth. Win two events yes take the move up.
Play in another 2-3 and place near the bottom, move back down.
Or something like that.

Team names: I've know teams that used 5 names. All names should be mentioned if multiple names are still being used.
July 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"When you beat one of these 6 or 7 team you have accomplished a grat deal."

It doesn't seem like a lot of guys want accomplishments anymore, just want to say they won something. Anything.
July 10, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
My feeling is a team like Ave Towing has maybe 4 major type players and the rest are AAA type players..around 12 players... give or take, I believe their team will be frustrated or have to break up, or will take a beating until they are put back in AAA. There is a big difference between all the divisions!
July 10, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Turn 2, I don't know who you play for but.....

My take on this is you have to regulate the top Division if you ever want a healthy program.

The first thing that should be attempted to grow the top level is......

The Plus Champion team has their entire roster placed into a "PlUS LIST" category.

The Plus runner up has six players placed on the "PLUS LIST"

The third place team has three players placed on the "PLUS LIST".

Those players carry the PlUS title until they enter the next age group.

NO MORE THEN FIVE US LIST PLAYERS CAN PLAY ON A PLUS TEAM.

I believe the current problem with the Plus program is.... The same group of player dominate year after year. Breaking them up gives teams from the Major Division a chance to compete with limited changes.

I see guys walking around talking about "winning" 30 + rings.

The vast majority of these players won most of their "rings" at the top level.... Allowing dominate teams to return year after year to the PLUS
program has proven faulty.

If anyone argues against something like this..... It will be interesting to see what Division they are part of. Or better yet..... How many "rings" they have won.

There is something wrong with allowing teams to go 118-2 or whatever the Mavericks were over a couple years in plus ball, then wondering why Major teams don't move up.
July 10, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
Break up the team that wins? No way! It's up to the other teams to climb to their level.
We played Turn Two (a team not a person) many times over the past 8 years and they almost always 'out execute' their opponents... they do not usually 'out homer' the other team.
Why should they be penalized for playing great ball at the highest level? This isn't rec ball.
Even if breaking up the winner was the plan there would still be teams that play down and teams that avoid playing the best teams. This has been going on for over 30 years in CA.
I'm told that ISSA had only a M division in Maryville, TN (i.e. not M & M+) If we REALLY want to solve the M+ issue, this is a good start. If this is their plan for 2013 we will be there even though it's 2,400 miles away.
BW
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Swing....
Not knowing the players on the team just going by what i read JU isn't doing that well in NCSSA, but where rated is at about the AAA\Major level, even though NCSSA does not use that specifically.
As Major rated here under the other towing name they could very easily have players that fit the new player concerns used to move them. I believe I read or heard one player can force a team move. Or just feel that is where they belong.
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Tim M.
I think you will force teams to either disband which in turn would be about as bad as that you are proposing here... However, I see what you mean by it in order to build the team numbers. Don't think you'll see a lot of happy campers if it comes to this.
As far as rings go, I know many that won many the AA level. But they were NEVER MOVED UP. Couple of them won 3-5 in one year back then.
honestly think the roster check should hepl adjusting the moves, especially starting next year.
July 10, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Guys should not have to be forced to move up from AA if able to, but should gladly want to. What even reasonably successful 12th graders still want to be playing on the Freshmen team?
July 10, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Every softball association breaks teams up every year by moving them up a Devision after dominating.
Why stop this process at the level one below the top.

I believe almost everyone would agree its good for the health of softball for bumped AA, AAA, Major team to only come back with X amount of players if they want to continue to play in the Division they just dominated.

So.... Why stop doing that healthy thing at the Plus level?

My guess would be some of the most influential players in senior ball have been associated of dynasty's.

What's been tried at the Plus level obviously has not help grow that division. Why not try something else? And NO, I am not for merging major and plus. At least not at the fifty and fifty-five age group.

I believe the majority of guys scared of my concept are they guys wanting to be part of an ongoing dynasty/dominating a PLUS level. Those individuals should be ignored because..... If you cared about the program you'd do all you could to make the field as balanced as possible.
July 10, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
Tim, what do you base 'your guess' on? I'm not sure who it is that you're referring to when you say 'most influential players' but most of the really influential ones do not even post on here.
You are correct when you say that most of the 'previous solutions' have not worked at the major + level. This is, IMO, due to the fact that they have never addressed the underlying problem, which is the lack of guts on many major teams.
It is laughable that you use the term 'scared' to describe the group of people who are willing to play against the best. I think that you have it reversed. Further, you generalize about their views ('they should be ignored') even though you don't even know who they might be.
Should I generalize that your reluctance to merge the 50/55 M & M+ levels is because you're scared to play the best teams?
BW
July 10, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Wood, I know Tim and he can hit with anyone in the country, Both of us are scared of no one... it's a matter of we play with teammates we like and to compete at the next level up Major plus, you have to have certain players that you don't find throughout a entire line up in Major.. if you combined Tims team with the best from our team we could compete I'm sure, however this is not what it's all about.. We both have relationships with who we play with and a certain loyalty goes with that. We may both get bumped and if that happens I hope they move up 50 teams from major to major plus so that it is not just not the Mavericks or the other fully sponsored teams dominating the division.. IMO!
July 10, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
Swing, that's fine. But he's making assumptions of who it is that object to his views. I know that I'm a guy who is not 'playing for a dynasty' and have played against Old A's (and other teams such as Turn Two) that fared better than us. We never whined about it... we just did what we could to beat them. Sometimes we did and sometimes not.
I understand the desire to play with friends but the whole concept of competitive softball does not need to be altered to accommodate it. As a member of this type of team you have two choices... stay together and enjoy each other's company or build a better team. Breaking up the Mavericks (aka Sommerville Softball) isn't one of those choices. My team has had those choices and has them now.
BW
July 10, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I agree that nothing is helping build teams or get them to move up on their own.
Heck there is a team I played for that had bolted out of about 3-4 tournaments because of a couple of other teams in the same bracket they "knew" they couldn't beat.. Last T out was to be this coming weekend for Turlock. In one Fri out the next Monday.
Building teams also means giving players chance to play with them. Far too many teams do not do that. Seems they scout when they feel like it nothing more.
Look at how many teams carry 17-19 of the max 20 in NCSSA. Yet they still need pickups for one.
Those bonds you mention also meld a team into what they become or can.
Would be nice to see a link for pickups here. Say; location, name, age, div you play or willing to play, etc.


July 10, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
yes, it sucks to have to make those choices when friends are involved...BW I've always played with teams that never had the best talent through the line up but did play together for a long period of time and did better than the all-star teams... I like that challenge and is a reason I stayed with the Barons this year is because of the great people I was playing with and the potential to grow as a team... it's still a process and we have had some success this year and we have 4 new editions to our team and probably going to add one more. It's starting to jell for us and I can only see it getting better. It's a process that I am enjoying and find challenging and rewarding! I guess at the end of the day I find it insulting saying we are whinning when I feel we are talking about maybe a better solution then what's happening to JU/Ave Towing... I talked to one of their players this weekend in the Cal Cup and they were not happy.. This player I talked to could hit at any level too so it wasn't just someone overwhelmed with the Major program.. It seems like if you just bump one team in the region to compete at the next level you are sending them in for a slaughter so to speak. check out how they have been winning and playing before you bump a team.. JU/Ave hasn't been playing well all year and got bumped anyway. Strange!
July 10, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
Swing;
I have no frame of reference for who JU/Ave Towing is so my comments were general and not geared toward them. But I have been around for a while and have seen lots of teams that play beneath their true level... and some of them do not own a part of SSUSA.
Secondly, I stated that OUR team didn't whine about the competition... we just dug in and tried to improve. We took regular beatings in the early years. Saying that we didn't whine was not an effort to insult you.
Simply put, the thought of asking the better teams to 'get worse' never occurred to us.
We played in a single wall tourney this past weekend here in Orange County. We had players ranging from 65 down to 57 or so and our competition was 50 or 55 teams. We played them all and took 2nd place... we played with our friends and didn't take the runs.
It is possible to play with long term friends AND be very competitive. I didn't mean to imply that the two things are mutually exclusive.
BW
July 10, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Yes I know,BW I think that way, with my team the Barons right now... I'm just saying a team like AVe Towing and Who Cares that haven't won anything or ever dominated AAA, should be in AAA and not moved up to soon.. If they started Dominating and hitting homeruns left and right then you move them up! IMO
July 10, 2012
badseed2b
5 posts
we were bumped from AAA to Major after 2011 Las Vegas Winter Worlds. Funny thing is we were eliminated on Saturday. I heard that the director saw our game against another California team SOCO on Saturday, we pounded them something like 42-19 & our bump up was based on that game. Ave Towing/JU won the tourney, & beat us in a close game. Again, we did not make it to Sunday. We had to play 5 games Saturday & got eliminated by a AAA team from Canada who crushed us like we crushed SOCO. we can occasionaly beat a Major or Major Plus team & but our team isn't loaded from top to bottom with Major caliber players, however the 5 run innings & home run equalizer help so if we're consistent we can hang with the big boys but it may be difficult to win tourneys.
July 10, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
yeah BadSeed but you guys now have that major plus Joe Cuneo! no stopping you now! :-)
July 10, 2012
badseed2b
5 posts
that's right, I gotta say Joe Cuneo has proven to be a great addition to our team. glad we signed him for 2012. now if only we could get everyone to the tournies, we could be formidable opponents at the next level
July 10, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Wood, my reasoning on breaking up Plus champions just a little (remember they could return with five or six players) is based on .....doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is insane... And that's kinda what's happening right now.
It's obvious that letting the same few teams dominate the Pllus Division Year after year isn't enticing Major teams to move up,so why not try something different.
Using the Mavericks as an example... How much fun can a competitor actually have playing in a Division where they could go 118-2? We already know It's been proven to be un enticing for others to join the fun volunterially, let alone forcefully.
Maybe you could give your idea to grow Plus ball?
July 11, 2012
turn2
486 posts
If you break up some of the major plus teams where are those player going to go? If 4 or 5 of those players go to a major team what do you think will happen? The major teams will start whining about having to play a stronger team.
I thought the idea of sports was to try and win and when you don't get better. If you want to play with your friends fine. But if I get beat I want to try and get better where I can compete the following year.
Some teams are scared to play other teams. Why is this? If you don't want to play certain teams just don't come. We have had teams refuse to play us just like other teams have stated. I will play any time in my age and have sometimes dropped down to play younger teams.
There are just too many divisions for so few teams. 2 divisions would be nice. Just like in young ball everyone plays in the e and d division.
Later
Donnie
Turn Two
60 major plus
July 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
"Some teams are scared to play other teams. Why is this? If you don't want to play certain teams just don't come. We have had teams refuse to play us just like other teams have stated. I will play any time in my age and have sometimes dropped down to play younger teams."

The short answer is, the long-discussed lack of pride.
July 11, 2012
boston
306 posts
My buddies played for a 55AAA team that won Reno w/ 26 teams, TOC and SW Nat'l from 2010-2011 and never got moved up. They also won the USSSA NM senior state championship. Should they have stayed AAA. I never believe they should have but they did. Thier argument as even though they won they were close games. Mine was You won.
July 11, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Saddest part is apparently they had no desire to to be further challenged.
July 11, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
Tim, I sort of did this in a new thread (Combine M & M+) I do not disagree with your goal but I do take issue with your methodology.
Donnie of Turn Two states it pretty well as far as expressing my views.
Where my thinking differs from most M+ guys is that the M teams lack incentive to move up. The rules are too liberal for them to compete unless the M rules are played. Whether this is real or merely preceived isn't the issue... they feel it, so they stay back. The M+ teams don't want to play M rules so we have the current status quo.
If M+ teams want to play more teams they need to be flexible in the rules they use. The ugly truth is that the M+ ranks have decreased over the past 6 years (I'm speaking of the 60 level).
Therefore, the most logical step that I foresee is to merge the two divisions. No more free runs (between M & M+), M game rules, equal roster rules, etc.
But... most of the M+ teams do not want this AND the assns prefer to isolate the M+ level. So we're all left with this intellectual exercise. The Soviet Union as we knew it came down so I won't 'say never' when it comes to the merger. But I'm not holding my breath.
BW
July 11, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
tim,i know of no assoc that requires team break up for winning a world.....they break up on their own b/c they don't want to try and compete at the next level,they would rather stay down and sandbag....
July 11, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Actually every softball association requires bumped teams to drop players if they want to stay in the Division they were bumped from because they dominated that Division.

All I am saying is.... It's insane to think not doing this exact same thing at the TOP level is healthy for that Top level program.

Every other level/Division has been much better served by only allowing a certain number of bumped players to remain on any one team and stay in the same Division after said team has dominated the Division.

All I am saying is..... Do the same thing with the Plus Division as you do in every other Division. Create a Plus/plus list of players and only allow a certain number of them to be on a Plus roster.
July 11, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Tim,
Define your thought on domination. Anything like the MTC teams, two M+ and 1 Major?
See your point though.
July 11, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
tim,reread my post please,still there is no rule to break up,unless the team is scared to move up and wants to stay at their sand bag level......then they can't keep the team as is,move up and they can keep all of team they want........
July 11, 2012
turn2
486 posts
Boston
Maybe your buddies team that won the aaa knew the right people. If you have connections or know some people your team can still play down.
This always helps.
Just a thought,
Donnie
July 11, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
The "Automatic Rating Increase" policy is the single most misunderstood, misrepresented and misquoted item by players and managers in their public commentary, both here on the Message Board and on-site at almost all tournaments. This is the specific policy from the Team Ratings • Guidelines and Procedures message in the priority section at the top of the Message Board:
__________

• Here are the guidelines for teams winning the largest National Championships of any of the National Summit Organizations (Only the largest tournament of each association results in the following):
1. Teams winning in a division of 6 or more teams and may not appeal their rating increase in the following season.
2. Teams winning in a division of 3-5 teams and may appeal their rating increase in the following season after playing in three (3) tournaments.
3. Teams winning in a division of 2 teams will not be moved up.
4. SSUSA reserves the right NOT to move a team up if there is a preponderance of information showing the team should remain in the original skill level.
__________

By way of further explanation, that means the only four events that will result in the champions receiving an automatic rating move (pursuant to items #1 and #2 above) are:

The LVSSA/SSUSA World Masters Championships • Las Vegas, NV
The SPA National Championships • Dalton, GA
The ISSA World Championships • Manassas, VA
The ISA Senior World Series • Columbus, IN

Teams may be moved up periodically based upon an accumulation of performance data over time, but those are NOT automatic moves based upon winning any particular tournament.
July 11, 2012
turn2
486 posts
I dont recall ever seeing any of the major teams that played in Manassas get moved up in the last 2 or 3 years. They usually always draw a large numbe rin the 50 and 55 major dividion and the aaa division draws a lot of teams.
This would have added some major plus teams and have not seen them.
thanks
Just asking,
donnie
July 11, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Taits, I would be for requiring any Plus Champion to only return six Plus listed players if they win a large Plus World.
I don't care if it's MTC or not as long as every team in the country is handled the same.
Again....
I'd require the entire world champion roster, six of the runner up team and three of the third place team to all be added to a list that would limit any six of them playing together infill then reach the next age group.
It's time to split up the talent from the top Plus teams and bring the plus Division closer to the major Division.
July 11, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
SSUSA - Now that you have come forward and involved yourself in this discussion, please define for all of us "preponderance of information" and "performance data". Are these things transparent and quantifiable or ethereal and elusive? Lay it out for us so that we may all be more enlightened.
July 11, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
I read that before and understand it. My thought on a core for a team is having 7-8 remain. There are usually that many you know will go to all scheduled and Six is only half, not there is much difference, but it may well be.
One thing for sure is that something needs to be done.
I am out of the division loop, but watch most all that goes on. Don't think I would understand any assn NOT trying something different given the number of other short lived things they have tried. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. At leas it could be said, it was tried.

The other shouldn't be hard to figure out where the info comes from.
July 12, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Gary-again you make an assumption with NO BASIS. You really go low level sometimes. Boston's friends played for the Desperados and your comment that 'apparently they had no desire to be further challenged"-is TOTALLY WRONG. Saddest part is you throw these statements out there just to rile people up, and don't check facts. We played many major and major plus teams in tournaments like Pinetop, Prescott, Kansas City and other tournaments. We did not make the decision on moving up, in fact we kept checking knowing we were borderline.You owe every Desperado an apology on here. Boston-you have played tournaments with us-you have to know we were expecting to be moved, and were ready to compete if we did get moved.
Gary-why don't you go blog on the political sites-then you can say anything you want and nobody will notice.
July 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Are teams allowed to voluntarily move up? Or is the only option being forced to do it?
July 12, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Gary,
A team can voluntary move up anytime they choose. Am surprised you don't know that...
Don't forget about your invite to the BP session this weekend near you, from Mike M.k,cope below and where when. Show them and us what your made of, but won't be holding our breath. Don't forget to bring the rings for the show and tell session.

June 29, 2012
Gorilla Boy
Men's 50
86 posts
That is right Big D. We should be able to hit Friday morning in Brook Park. They play the men's senior league there on Tuedsay and Thursday mornings untl 12.00 So we should not have any problems for Friday. I am going to try have a couple of guys from that league maybe and then the Maple Heights league. I might be able to get some players from the Northern Ohio 50 team. I will make sure I bring some shitty balls. Ha!Ha! Just kidding. If Gary19 wants to show up he is more than welcome. I am from Cleveland and don't have anything against softball players.... Anyone is welcome.
See you there Big D!
Gorilla Boy
-----
5ToolsinOhio
Men's 50
78 posts
Brookpark Rec Center,Kennedy field-holland/engle rds or right behind Kennedy fields-sylvia/engle rd there are 2 fields 10am.
July 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Scott, it was a rhetorical question to Webbie. He acted like they did not move up only because they were not told to. My point was they could have easily moved up on their own and accepted that challenge after apparently winning a number of tourmanents at their current level. Per boston's post, they chose not to.
July 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Mark,

In those tournaments where you played the Major and Major+ teams were you actually competing against them in the same bracket for championships, or just playing them in what amounted to glorified exhibition games?
July 12, 2012
boston
306 posts
Webbie and Gary 19; I always figured SSUSA had to move you up. I never meant to say the Desperados were afraid to move up. I stated I felt they should have moved up. But, that was based on the criteria set by SSUSA. You keep winning in your division you move up. Yes, these guys were playing Major and Major + teams and competing. I would not disparage these guys they are great guys just was wondering why SSUSA never decided to make them move. that was the basis of my comments. Webbie if I offended you and the Desperados I apologize.
July 12, 2012
Robo2
223 posts
I see no problem with the move up. If you win you are verifying you are at the top of that class. No need to validate with a second win in a "major" tourney. Now the 2nd thru 5th place teams can try for the top spot. Also, many teams break up and form new teams to try to stay at the lower level - by keeping track of player ID one can verify the appropriate classification. One other point in favor of mandatory move up - it is one way of preventing / deterring the load up of better class players for the one big tournament.

From what I have seen, there is not much difference between AAA and Major. The few AA teams I have seen are also quit good.

Who can take pride in winning at lower levels? I personnally would want to play same level of competion or slightly better.
July 12, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Boston you didn't -but Gary did with his same old schtick. And Gary-in Prescott and Pinetop it was in the tourney and we got knock out, but nobody grumbled. The others were exhibition but we welcomed it. And did not take the runs a couple times. And as far as moving ourselves up-this was a team that 3 yrs before was AA and worked their way up-and was still not sure we were that good. But not playing, you wouldn't understand-AGAIN.The Desperados are still waiting for your apology. You don't have to apologize to me-I don't care, but they deserve one.
July 12, 2012
TOMAR77
Men's 55
200 posts
We are a team that was formed in 2006, we won the Worlds last year in our division. In the past we won a few ring tourney's with just a couple of teams in our division, we were not moved up. But when we won the Big One last year we not only expected to be moved up, we wanted to be moved up, we earned it! We figured let's prove that we belong in the higher rated division. The teams we play against will prove it one way or another!
SSUSA, IMHO, has it right. You win a major tourney then play out the new rating for a year. I would rather win the major tourney than to have not won, it is more than worth the move up.Winning isn't everything, however it does beat losing. But in the end, I am grateful to be able to play and enjoy the Senior Softball Community, winning a major tourney, well that is Just Icing on the old softball.
July 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
What "schtick"? 12th graders should not want to continue playing Freshmen or JV if they can/should play Varsity. No real difference here.

If you won as much as boston said, you clearly were that good. You are what your record says you are. How do you try to double-talk your way out of that?

"But not playing, you wouldn't understand-AGAIN" Talk about schtick.....:(
July 12, 2012
crusher
Men's 70
395 posts
Robo2 - you must live in a place where all teams are equal!
HEY, I play on a AAA team that gladly moved up from AA after winning AA last year.

Over 16 years I have played many Major teams from Florida to Califorina and played AAA off and on for all those years and THERE IS A GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "MAJOR" and AAA.

You must live in the same world as Gary19 !!!!!!!!!!!
July 12, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Maybe he does. God forbid 12th graders shouldn't be content playing JV.
July 12, 2012
garyheifner
361 posts
Crusher, you are correct. My AAA team is competitive at that level. When we play Ms or M+s, we basically field batting practice for 5 innings, shake hands, completely lie when when we say nice game to each opponent and get ready for the next butt kicking if it is a major/M+ team. Most teams, at our age levels, are not going to get significantly better by hard work and dedication. The majority of seniors players have been playing for up to 50+ years. Their abilities are pretty well established and are usually diminished by injury or health isuues. Many workout a bunch to just try and hold on to what they got. Teams will get significantly better by dumping the 2 ot 3 worse players on the team each year, even though they have been loyal, and replace them with hand picked talent. From my experience in the midwest, perinial power houses don't just come together. Individuals carefully recruit and hand pick the best they can find. When they win and get moved up, life is a bitch. You move up, give it your best shot, if you fail, you have a case for being moved back down and SSWC will do that as well as moving teams up.
July 13, 2012
Robo2
223 posts
It could very well be that the Northeast does not have that many teams. We typically see the same teams in each toruney; each year. the difference between the AAA and Major is not that great. for the most part the teams are established and do not recruit. That is the major difference when one moves up to Major +.

One the other hand I do see where teams win and then complain when they move up.
July 13, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Still waiting for your apology. But you're not a big enough man to do it.
July 13, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
I have no prolem with apologizing, when it is deserved and needed.

You guys apparently won a bunch of tourneys, including apparently some pretty siginificant ones, then did NOT choose to move up. I simply said you guys did not accept the challenge, and you didn't. So where was I wrong?
July 13, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
SSUSA - I am still waiting for you to provide details of what makes up the "preponderance of information" and "performance data" when determining whether or not a team should be re-classified. You stated that the "automatic rating increase" was the most misunderstood and misrepresented subject on this site. Maybe if you were to provide a detailed explanation of what goes in to the process this subject wouldn't be such a big issue on the message board.
July 13, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
The automatic move is posted! Would love to see the not so automatic move... like if you win one small tourney and then a winter world tourney what that means????
July 13, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
Preponderance of information = Additional information about the specific Wold/National tournament (e.g., weather shortened which required early termination, modified non-standard format, like 1-pitch) that could make an automatic move inconsistent with the same type of automatic move from another of the National/World Championship tourneys. A good example would be the ISA Senior Worlds a couple years ago where the event was cancelled on Sunday and reverted back to Saturday standings to determine winners.

Performance data = Standard statistical data analysis from our scoring database regarding wins, losses, average margins of victory or loss against same and outside rating/age level competition, roster composition, etc. This is the basis for moving teams up or down, as further influenced by recommendations and observations from Tournament and Field Directors and the National Ratings Advisory Committee (which is NOT the actual Ratings Committee).

Both categories are a combination of objective data and carefully considered subjective interpretation, as are most things in life. Should you have additional inquiries, feel free to make a written request to info@seniorsoftball.com and we'll see what we can do to reply quickly.
July 13, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
Thank you. As most people on this site, I am looking for transparency and consistency. As you previously mentioned, the automatic re-classification is misunderstood and a frequent topic of discussion on this site. Now that you have stated that subjectivity is involved there is no need for further discussion.
July 13, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Still waiting, little man. Come out from behind your keyboard.
July 14, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Watiting for what? Your multi-championship team to have the balls to move up?
July 14, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
That's funny coming from a guy that denigrates everyone in Senior softball and doesn't even come out to play. You just wish you were on a multi-championship team. You always chime in with your shrill keyboard 'voice', about people not having enough information to make a statement, and demanding documentation. As usual, you do not hold yourself to the standards that you attempt to hold others to. Well, you know very little about the entire history of the Desperados, you have never seen us play, and on the statement of one guy that we were close to being in a position to move up you have insulted a team that worked harder to improve themselves, including practicing almost every Sunday through several winters, than you could even dream of doing. They accomplished more, with less talent, than any team I have ever been on in 44 years of playing. Again, you have hit a new low, and that's hard for you.

And now you can't even type any more--WAITITING?
July 14, 2012
turn2
486 posts
I have found that all organizations have rules but in the end they will only do what they want to. They will move some teams up because of a rule and then when you bring more data about toher teams they know nothing about those teams.
All I would like is do make a set of rules and make all teams abide by the rules. If you move 1 team up becasue of rules just move all teams up also with the same set of rules. Then don't make exceptions to any of the rules. Now everybody can play by the same rules.
In the end the organiztions don't care about most of the teams just the ones that make them money. These organizations just need to be up front with all the teams. All these divisions will never be fixed.
All winners should be moved up if there were x amount of teams in that paticular world.
Later
Donnie
July 14, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Sorry you've been waiting, I had games to play this morning.

Your team sounds like the poster children for teams that should move up, yet you didn't. Yes it was only on the word of one person, but you haven't disputed his recap of your team's accomplishments.
July 14, 2012
tater9
62 posts
His entire team has no balls....... based on the word of one person! WOW!
July 14, 2012
mad dog
Men's 60
3937 posts
and all of this from someone who plays 6-10 teams in league over and over again....but complains about our tourney's not being 10+ teams and having to play the same teams.....uses a senior bat,but gets on us for using it.....

what a sad and pathetic life he must live.....
July 14, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Gary19,
Well did you go show Mike M. & the others just how good you are at the BP session you were invited to?
Since we know you read every thing on here we also know you knew where it was or possibly is still going on. But just in case: Brookpark Rec Center,Kennedy field-holland/engle rds or right behind Kennedy fields-sylvia/engle rd there are 2 fields 10am. 10 am was for Fri I believe however.

It sure would be great to read a good report on here since it's only about 25 miles or so from your home.
July 14, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
tater, the "one person" gave facts, not opinion. I only need to hear facts from one person, facts stand on their own. From how many different people did you need to hear that Washington was the first President before you believed him/her?

pup, HUGE difference. I can play 25-30 games against those 6-10 teams for $50-$100. Not hundreds of dollars with travel costs to play 4 or 5 games. Just not comparable.

I play 4 games a week this summer, and haven't picked up a senior bat since last August.

Sorry you just can't catch on.....:(

Scott, I was in the office yesterday at 10am, and at games this morning.

July 14, 2012
tater9
62 posts
It took "one person" (my teacher) to tell me that Washington was the first President. It was easily proven as fact by various methods. You took "one persons" (some unknown entity on a message board) facts and made a detemination that an entire group of men you don't even know had no balls thus questioning their manhood. Based on the facts I was easily able to obtain I can prove that Washington was the first President. Can you prove based on your facts that the entire team has no balls or their manhood was diminshed by those facts presented to you? Not possible! The Washington example was very crude. I am surprised that an individual of your professed intellectual ability would succumb to such a low level of cerebral integrity. I agree with a lot of your assessments of the senior game today but you are way off base on this one.
July 14, 2012
Allan55
80 posts
I have listened to numerous ideas players have for improving the method of moving teams up the latter. Although I understand them,I feel the problem is with the system.

For example, the M+ divisions are highly competitive. You can hit 12 homers in a game and score up to 9 runs in an inning (this is too many...it should be 7). In the M division you can only hit 7 homers and score up to 5 runs in an inning.

That is too much of a gap to bridge. The best M teams would have to drop a number of players to be competitive on a week to week basis in order to compete with the M+ teams.

My suggestion would be to change the M division rules to 9 homers and 7 runs (if you were going to keep the number of runs per inning at 9 for M+). The M teams would then be able to learn to play the power game the M+ teams display and be more competitive.

All the divisions would have to be altered to provide teams with progressive steps. I don't feel the current steps are working.
July 15, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
tater, so you are saying that boston's post explaining all of the tournaments this particular team won is incorrect?
July 15, 2012
tater9
62 posts
As with my teacher I could prove the accuracy of her comment in a very simple fashion that Washington was in fact the first President Making a comment based on the accuracy of some tournament finishes that puts into question the moral and ethical fiber of a group of individuals by labeling the entire team as having no balls is absurd. Please prove to me that these men have no balls. I can prove to you that Washington was the first President based on your comment, it is impossible to prove that the members of the team have no balls based on some tournament finishes. Come on Gary you can do better than that. There could be a plethora of reasons as to why the team made the choice they did if in fact the tournament history is accurate. You made a choice to call out an entire team as having no balls and questioning their moral and ethical fiber.......something I would never do based on such little and meaningless information. Quite frankly I could dig a little deeper with your absurd comment but I will leave it alone.
July 15, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Gee, all 4 wins out of 22 tournaments that we played in the two years in question. We did win a couple 'fun' tourneys also, but in the big ones we never placed higher than 5th-(Worlds and Winter Worlds), the TOC was 6 teams but doesn't really count in the equation by SSUSA rules, and Laughlin was 6 teams. The USSSA was 4 teams-one of which was a AA team. Out of 20 guys-15 were on the team from when we started as a AA team in 2006. Out of 20 guys on the roster-9 were over 60 and 4 more turn 60 this year, which made us a very old 55 team. Now the team has split with the younger 55's forming their own team and the old 'guard' is trying to get ready for 60's next year, while still playing 55AAA this year and not winning more than one game in a tournament since the TOC. Would you have voluntarily moved up with this scenario facing you? But we would have accepted a mandatory 'move up' from SSUSA if they had asked. I moved to major Plus-do I also have 'no balls'?
You need to apologize to these guys. Period.

tater-thanks for the support- a lot of the Desperados that read this appreciate it.
July 15, 2012
boston
306 posts
I must say this issue has become very contentious.
Gary19: I have always defended your right to speak and say what you feel. But, I have to say your way off base with your comments concerning the Desperados. These guys were far from afraid to move up. I have played against them as 50AA and 50AAA. They also have 5 very dear friends and league teammates of mine on that time. I have also played tournaments with other members of the Desperados.

My statement was based on criteria set by SSUSA. I had discussions w/ members of the team about moving up. Not once did one of the players say they were afraid to move up. They were just waiting for the call. Another aspect of this is about 6 of the players on that 55 team were in their 60's. I do know these guys have played together for decades and are extremely loyal to each other. Moving up voluntarily may have meant leaving these guys behind and that is a tough decision to make. Had SSUSA moved them trust me they would have gone. Would they have done well, I believe so because they had both talent, heart and fear no one.

Tater9: the aforementioned tourneys played and won were accurate. in fact, I probably left out a few. But, this conversation has taken an ugly twist and has become far more personal than intended.

Webbie: This why I left out the team name as to not make it personal. Again, sorry my friend for all the unnecessary bullshit. We still need to drink that beer together. I missed Silver City due to my grandson's tourney. I was in Albuquerque for 4 days during the week of the 4th for my 25th anniversary. I thought about looking you guys up. But, the boss made it very clear. No sports, no watching, no talking, no playing. So in the best interest of my health and marriage I thought it best to go incommunicato. I know you understand how that goes.lol
July 15, 2012
tater9
62 posts
Boston, this is not personal and hasn't taken an ugly turn at all. Gary 19 made a comment about a bunch of men not having any balls therefore questioning their moral and ethical fiber. This comment was based on winning some senior tournaments which to me is absurd!
I explained to him how I can prove that Washington is the first President based on "one person" telling me. I am simply asking him how can he prove that these men in question have no balls based on "one person" telling him.
July 15, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
boston, I can be flexible here. You are the one who first made what appears to be a legitimate issue about this team. I echoed your sentiments, though perhaps a bit more colorfully.....:) Except it sounds like you chose to place the burden of moving this team up solely on the association, when they could have chosen to move up themselves.

I understand they might not have been afraid, perhaps, and that they might have been waiting for a call. But my understanding is they could have easily accepted the challenge of moving up on their own without the need for a call, and apparently have not. Call that what you wish.
July 15, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
We'll have that drink, Tony, no need to apologize from you. Tony, out of 15 guys on the tournament roster this year, I think only 2 are under 60. It still amazes me that the Mental Giant (by his own words he has warned at least 3 of us not to get into an intelligence war with him), Gary19 can consistently demean people like the Desperados, demean all senior hitters that use a senior bat (prideless), demean all of us that play a game he says little girls play, that he can run down SSUSA with impunity, which he does with unerring frequency, yet he is above apologizing, even when so obviously wrong. I am done coming DOWN to your intelligence level-Gary. You are like talking to a 7 year old that hides behind his keyboard. Such a sad, small man-you have my pity.
July 18, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Gary19-thank you for apologizing to the Desperados. We all appreciate it.
July 19, 2012
titanhd
Men's 50
334 posts
SSUSA Staff. I agree that ratings interpretation are routinely misinterpreted but, the issues arise when the rating rules aren't adhered to across the lot. Case in point. Team wins the 50 Major Northern Championship two years in a row and not bumped to plus. And without an appeal because the 6 team criteria was met they now play 55 AAA ?? Explain that.Please.
July 19, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
It's easy to 'misinterpret' these. I think the problem is lack of teams being used as criteria, even if right or wrong. Look as the cal cup. many brackets only had 2-4 teams. But some teams also go knowing only a few will attend. CC has been this way for a few years. Still they 'win' the T and a berth to the TOC. Many T's with a TOC berth at stake are like this. Even the TOC has them. Some teams count on the shorted team brackets knowing they aren't going anywhere. Some also make sure they don't win a world masters or PHX event in the process because of the move. They are content winning where they are.
Perhaps it time to adjust ALL divisions. Teams still in same div after say 4 years. I know some have been in same for about 15. Just move up in age. Winning many events along the way. Those in the Plus arena I don't relish the thought but something needs to be done to add to the teams available in each. Many suggestions have been made and some I think would work but it does involve thought for each of those teams.
I think the end result would be more teams overall with teams playing other teams rather than the same ones over and over, like league play.
July 19, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Problem seems to be that too many players and teams don't want new challenges unless they are forced to, in which case the overwhelming majority seem to either appeal their move-up or disband and come back under the radar.
July 19, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Gary, 50s Major is more interesting than the Major plus division.. basically three teams in California in Major plus and 19 teams in the whole country in Major plus... Playing the same 3 to 4 teams in CA is not anything to look forward to when there are so many more Major teams to play.
July 20, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
swing, I can completely understand that. But this might be a case of combining the better Major teams with the + and enlarging that division at least a bit. Let the Major teams work to improve, and the + teams would have some more variety.
July 20, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Major is the most desirable division by far! Major-plus is a drag ... too many HR's, too many runs per inning and the 2 outside border players, only affordable to the big budget teams, which aren't many.

Major-plus exists because of only a few "true" Major-plus teams and the need for them to have someone to play, so the best "Major" teams are forced to play there.

Maybe if they combine Major and Major-plus with Major rules, some of those Major-plus teams may feel they don't want to play with those limits and break off into two teams. This would be better than forcing Major teams to move up when they don't want to and know they can't compete with those rules.
July 20, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
Jawood's got it right. He should know, he's been dealing with it for several years. As has been said by MANY people on this sight, combine the 2 and when a Plus plays a Major make the Plus teams play with the run and home run rules that the Majors have. With the exception of the number of home run hitters, there is no difference between the teams in the 2 divisions. You may need to re-classify those few Major teams that are just not strong enough to compete. That would be a minor issue and easily resolved.
July 20, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Who would have even thunk it, a Plus player saying merge major with Plus.
Once again, only louder...

PLUS NEEDS TO FIX THEIR OWN PROBLEM BEFORE TRYING TO INCORPORATE OTHER TEAMS/DIVISION.

WEAKEN THE POWERHOUSE PLUS TEAMS BY LIMITING THE TOP PLAYERS IN SOME MANNER.

ID RECOMMEND.....AGAIN....... PLUS WORLD CHAMPIONS ARE LIMITED TO NO MORE THEN SIX OF THEM ON A PLUS TEAM ROSTER UNTILL THEY REACH THE NEXT AGE GROUP.

SIX IS TWICE AS MANY PLAYERS AS ANY OTHER DIVISION CHAMPION IS ALLOWED TO KEEP AND STAY IN THE DIVISION THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN DOMINANT IN.
July 20, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
Sounds like somebody is PARANOID about having to play a team one classification above them. When we play local tournaments we are always having to play teams that are classified higher or they are younger or both. If you want to play in tournaments and you enjoy playing different teams that is what you have to do in our part of the Country.
Your "plan" might work for California, Texas and Florida (states with a large population base and lots of senior players) but it doesn't make sense for a lot of other parts of the Country. Players like to play with longtime friends that they have played with since back in "the day". Your plan over legislates. You are trying to dictate which team a player can play on. Most everyone plays on a team because they like the team and the players who are on it. Afterall, the vast majority of us are playing because we still love the game and the cammaraderie that comes with it.
July 20, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
by my count Tim, if they measure us by M+ players and not just where they are playing down ot, your MTC team has 6 to 7 major plus hitters now on your team... with your last two pick ups... so when they bump you, I won't cry to much for you guys..:-)
July 20, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Lefty, let's take on your points one at a time

1) Paraniod??? Comical. Its not paranoid, it's fed up... Fed up with the few Plus teams crying over and over to ruin the Major program so they have a lot of lower level teams to beat up on.

2) plan might work for bigger states.
Don't understand how limiting the Major Plus Champions to six returning players until they reach the next age group is different for different size stand along states.
Please also remember..... I'd split some of the stand alone states and regulate in some manner population to be included in merging states.

3) playing with long time friends.
This one I always find comical.... How many of those so called long time friends have had dinner at each others houses? How many of those long time friends actually know each others. Holden by name?
And...... How many of those long time friends have been let go/or not picked up for the Manor PLUS team based on abilities?

4) regulating which team players play on????
This is done in every other Division of senior softball. Why stop regulating at the PLUS level. Heaven knows not doing that at thist time is not working.

5) playing for the love of the game...
I agree. So why not break up a Champion Plus winner just a little. That way others who love the game have a better hanceof competing when they are bumped to Major PLUS?
July 20, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
Okay Tim, thanks to "swing for the fences", I see where you are coming from. You have a "dog in the fight". You want a chance to dominate at the Major level before you come under scrutiny and possibly get bumped. Let's be honest, you really don't want to be put in to the same bracket as Sommerville. Because aside from them, there really isn't much difference between the rest of the Major Plus teams and the majority of Major teams at the 50 age group. You say that you are looking out for the bottom feeders in the classification but I think not. Let's face it, there is the Mavericks and there is the rest of the Senior Softball Universe. I have been told that their budget is around 250K a year. That sounds like a ton of money and I'm not sure that it is accurate but safe to say that they have the largest budget in Senior softball. There record in Senior Softball is phenomenal. They usually bring 18 or so players to a tournament. They have players play only in prelims and have guys who just run, etc. If I were the one making the rules, I would designate them as an "exhibition team" and not allow them to win any tournaments. They may get pissed when they read this but that's the way I feel and everyone is welcome to their opinion.
Tim - You make a point of people not knowing each other and M Plus teams adding and cutting players (no loyalty), etc. That may be your reality in Cali., but up here in the NW it is a pretty tight Softball Community. Jawood stated in a previous post that 13 of the 16 players on his roster live within a 50 mile radius. All of these guys have played with and/or against each other for 25 to 30 years. You probably can't relate, but that is reality up here. By the way, I don't have a dog in this fight. I play 60 plus.
July 20, 2012
the wood
1085 posts
Lefty: you're way off on ss' budget(way over). But you seem to be right on when it comes to timmy having a 'dog in the fight'.

Tim: have you even played M+? You sound like a guy that would like to legislate himself a championship. How bout just showing and beating the big dogs? Our m+ teams spent lots of evenings together. So what? You're not content to be wrong about m+ guys, you insist on being emphatically wrong.
But at least you can use capitals. Doesn't seem like Lefty buys into your altruistic posture. Me either.
BW
July 20, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Well, BW, I think Tim is on the Radar of SSUSA but he has not been playing in this sanction all year to fly under the radar... he's putting his eggs in one basket at the Major worlds in Vegas.. he had 4 to 5 major plus hitters on his team and just picked up two more Major plus hitters.. One from the broken up Demolition team for sure and I'm not sure of the other one he just picked up... Anyway, you bet he has a dog in this fight! However it doesn't mean what he is talking about is not true. I know for a fact that the state of the Major plus level division is pretty much a joke in CA playing the same 3 teams now.. Someone mentioned the two teams in Florida also... the entire country has under 20 teams total.. Anyway, I do think that there needs to be steps taken to keep things competitive in the Future in Major plus or a combination of Major plus and Majors,IMO!
July 20, 2012
leftyodoul
Men's 60
99 posts
Wood & Swing - You sound like 2 guys that know their S_ _ t when it comes to Senior Softball. I feel bad for the guys playing M Plus. They go to a tournament and play the same 2 or 3 teams all of the time. Our guys up here have opted not to play in the Western Nationals because of it. They would rather save their money and play in a couple of local tournaments against the "kids" or the 40's. Something has to be done. That something is combining Major and Plus. Of course, the Devil is always in the details. Just the same, it needs to be done.
July 21, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Actually..... I have been being told for three years now that our MTC team is. Apable of playing major plus..... Most of the time the talk is from.a few NorCal teams crying about trying to get us out of major.
Funny thing is.... Here are a few FACTS...
1) Swings team has finished higher then us in every SSUSA event we have played in.... Yet somehow we are the Plus team????

2) swings team beat us and won the one event we both played in this year...yet we are the Plus team?

3) two years ago I heard we should be playing Plus. Yet we went 2-4 in PHX Major Worlds

4) last year I kept hearing we should play Plus. We tied for 12th at PHX Worlds..... Swings team came in around sixth..... Yet we are the Plus team?

5) we have nine players returning from the team that tied for 12th last year. We added two of Swings old teammates, and splayed from another NorCal major team last year.... That's 11 players that didn't place top five at Worlds last year.... Yet we are a Major team??

6) we are trying to add two Plus players from Demolition (if they get a release). Swings team has two ranked Plus players from the old longhorns team. They are the only Plus rated players on our team... Both our teams would have two plus players.... Somehow we are the Plus team?

7) our team has decided to stay local (not chance rings all summer) and play one big event.... SSUSA Major Worlds.... This is the third year in a row we are going to Major Worlds hoping yo do great. If we get hot and play well enough at Major Worlds to get bumped next year then our team has some tuff choices.
If things stay the same at 50 Plus next year it's really not enticing to join.
Four of our players are eligible for 55 right now.... One or two more are a year away.
Many of our rostered players at this time, like myself have Plus potential on one side of the field but not the other....ie..... Some can hit at plus, some could field at plus. But very few, MAYBE ONE, can do both at this time.
That's why we are a Major caliber team.....as an example.... I am a AAA fielder and on a good day possibly a Plus hitter.... That would make me a Major player. There are two sides of the game.
Our games at last years Major worlds were proof we could hit but were challenged on the glove side of the game.
I think you are still wrong on merging as far as I am concerned.... You have to show the top of a Division is not being Dominated by a few teams... To do that you need to do something like what is done in every other Divison of senior ball.... Regulate it so dominant teams cannot stay intact to dominate the same
division over and over again....
You do that by limiting the amount of Plus Champions allowed to be on future Plus rosters.
July 21, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
I will admit you have been AAA defense but still have a stacked lineup hitting this year after your last two pic ups... However you might have a great showing or might have an off day in the worlds and you will get to stay in majors... If you don't win, you don't move... I would of played everything I could.. hell I'm trying to talk my team into going to Spa Western Nationals... and if you think ricky D is a major plus playeron our Baron team... he's been damaged goods for two years plus he had more abats in one season with us than his entire Longhorn career.. bottom Line is he is a role player at best at the Major level and in his current state of health he is all role player at the major level!
July 21, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Forgot one thing.. if you don't play anything like SSUSA Tourneys like we played the Cal cup you will not win anything.. you have decided not to play, so of course we have done better this year... You have been playing backyard 40s tourneys and doing well.. while the Barons were playing everything in North Cal and SSUSA with no worries of the move up if it presented itself.. We didn't hide or try to stay off the grid. Anyway, we could bomb in Vegas worlds and I would still say we had a successful season doing what we have done so far.. We had great competition and some success. Across the Board your team has higher rated players if someone rated all of us.. and that is the difference and why they might want to bump you before anyone else that is playing and winning! IMO
July 21, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Swing, why would anyone try to get SSUSA to bump a team to Plus that has 12 guys that have played last Years Major Worlds in PHX and didn't place top five..... Yes, we hope to add two plus level players to our major team, but...... No one else on our team is ranked 50 Plus.

We play in a few 40 tourneys because they are one dayers... NCSSA two day events are not as enticing to most of us with other things to do on our limited days off. That goes double for the three day events SSUSA runs. There are some of our players that want to play three day tourneys.... But our team voted to only play in one of them this year...Vegas Worlds. We decided to at around ten tourneys this year with three of them being one day events.

The Baron placing ahead of us is not limited to this year.... Last year you placed higher then us in, Vacaville and the Worlds. The two biggest events out west.

This year you beat us to win the only NCSSA event we both played in.

It's interesting that ever since our sponsor told The Barons he wasn't helping you out anymore, there have been rumors of you guys lobbying to get us bumped to Plus in SSUSA.

If we play well enough at Worlds when all the top Major teams from accross the country are present AND EARN a plus ranking, so be it. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR THREE YEARS NOW.... Two years ago we were 2-4 at Worlds, year we tied for 12th..... We improved.... Let's see how it works out this year.

I know there are hard feeling with some of your Barons teammates....

It started when our sponsor stopped helping you guys out.

Increased when your team was looking at breaking up and we picked up two of your guys when THEY CALL US. And it blew up when your team started complaining ab out me/us going for hits against your four man outfield by hitting balls up the middle for hits.

This is way to much drama about our team....... If we went back to the original thread about bumping teams that win Worlds I say.... If you win a World your bumped.... If you win a Plus World only six guys on your roster can play together till they reach the next age group.
July 21, 2012
donll
58 posts
Tim,
Your idea (breaking up a winning team because its not competitive) is very unique and not consistent with anything any softball organization or any other sporting organization currently does. To my knowledge nowhere in any sport do they force any championship team to break up. And certainly not softball. They force you to move up, as long as there is a higher division you can play in.

Would you also advocate a AA team that has never won a tournament and loses almost every game to break up for the good of the game since there is nowhere for them to play below. And if not how come? Think about it..it seems like the same logic. There’s no competition when teams play them and who wants that? And the answer is…no you wouldn’t advocate that because there is no threat that your team would lose..

July 21, 2012
DCPete
235 posts
The irony here is that if the Major + teams are broken up or otherwise restricted to reduce their dominance, they will no longer be Major + teams.
Just saying . . .
(ISSA combined Major + & Major this year but it's probably still too soon to assess the results plus they are based on the East Coast where there aren't a lot of Major + teams to begin with)
July 21, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Well Tim, I for one like to play against teams that load up.. It's fun to knock teams off their perch... I think it's comical that you are for the Major plus teams breaking up but on the other hand you are loading up your team.. it's like having your cake and eating it too.. Anyway, I understand your point of view of your teams lack of success.. I would scratch my head too if they moved you up without you guys accomplishing anything... However, when you add two major plus players to the Milletes, Wes, Gary,Glens, of the softball world you are stacking your team with 6 major plus impact hitters! IMO how fair is that to major division? IMO Are team has three guys at best that would be considered Major plus type players!
July 21, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
oops meant Our team instead of Are!
July 21, 2012
Smokey20
Men's 55
102 posts
Don't really post on boards much but heres my imput.

With the current SSUSA rules the Plus team would beat a Major 8 out of 10 times. In Nor Cal with the 1 homerun and I up the Major's can compete and occassionally win. These are different formats and will offer vastly different results. To combine as some suggest Plus/Major in SSUSA, SPA, etc in my mind isn't a good idea.

The problem with Major Plus...Lack of teams....Heres why.

Team ranked #1 in Nor Cal.

Team has 2 players on Senior Softball Impact Players List.

Team just picked up 2 additional MPlus players.

Team has 4\5 players from A\AA USSSA MEN'S.

That's 8/9 Major Plus caliber players on a SSUSA Major team.

That team: MTC 50
July 22, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
Teams that will maintain their Major+ rating or will be moved automatically to Major+ for the 2013 Season following this week's results of the SPA National Championships in Dalton, GA -

50-MAJOR+ - OKI Players (OH) - Remains Major+
50-MAJOR - ENR (NJ) - Moves to Major+

55-MAJOR+ - Hendricks Sports Management (TX) - Remains Major+
55-MAJOR - Omega/QSE Construction (MD) - Moves to Major+

60-MAJOR+ - Turn 2/Chavis (NC) - Remains Major+
60-MAJOR - D & K Softball (CA) - Moves to Major+

July 23, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Donll,

ASA is currently using player restrictions at its top level... ASA is also considering some Metro area restrictions if their list regulations don't reach their goals of a competitive Top Division.

USSSA has had ongoing discussions on limiting elite/major list players in its top Division. At this time they have not implemented any. But that most likely has more to do with their CEOs son being on the number one team in the top Divisiin then it does to what's best for the game.

Again...... How many players would it effect if each years Plus winner can only return six players till they join the next age group???? 6 or 7 players?
It's. It like those limited few plus players that are effected wouldn't be able to play.
I believe the opportunity to try to build the Plus Division make this concept worth trying before any crap of merging Major with Plus.

My idea effects very few players each year (maybe 7 players).

The idea of merging Plus with Major effects 400+ major players and if you consider how Major teams would disband and drop to AAA... It very well could effect the AAA Division followed by AAA dropping to AA....

All of this so a very few can continue to dominate the Plus Division while making it almost impossible to grow Plus ball.
July 23, 2012
donll
58 posts
Tim,
Correct me if I’m wrong but ASA restrictions apply only to their “A” division and lower. That would seem to be the equivalent of Seniors Major Division. I believe SSUSA already restricts major teams.

That aside ASA’s restricted list is made up of players selected by a committee, not anyone that happens to play on a team that wins a championship. So they wouldn’t necessarily be breaking up the champion of their top division. If you are proposing a committee making up an impact players list based on ability not just being on a winning team then from what I hear your team would be in trouble despite your lack of success.
July 23, 2012
taits
Men's 65
4387 posts
Tim,
I think you'll find that most any team that has players on board that played on other higher rated teams, will be given 'option' to play up or perhaps play at a lower age div. if that is really a choice.
The new system changes even more in 2013, so more will be effected than this year.
don't forget the player 'history' is 2 years back, but I'm not sure if that is from 2013 or 2012 when it started.
I do know many teams have been realigning this year with players. I just don't know which way.
July 23, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Taits, I don't know anything about things changing in 2013. Maybe you can fill me in.
What are the changes?

What's the measurable goals for any changes being made in 2013?

What measurements will be used to monitor if the changes are working?

The top levels of senior ball are not growing for one reason..... The same teams dominating year after year whether they come in first second or third make it almost impossible to entice upward movement.

Somehow senior ball needs to figure out a way to turn over the top of the Plus Division yearly..... If any one can come up with a better way to do it then my suggestion, I'm all ears.
July 23, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
This past weekend we played a team that was moved up by SPA to the Major Plus level. TSC/Howards Construction. They play Major in all the other sanctions. They stayed right with us in both games, 33-32 and 39-36. So, all this talk about Major teams not being able to compete is a bunch of hogwash. They competed and very well I might say. Why should we have to give up some of our players just because we won a championship? What other team would the other 6 or 7 guys play for? There are just not enough Plus teams in our area for those guys to go to. SPA Major Plus rules are the same as all the other sanctions Major rules. Combining the 2 divisions WILL work, it was proven in Dalton this past weekend. Just think how nice that tourney would have been with 20 teams. The 16 in the Major division and the 4 in the Plus division.
July 23, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
donll, the ASA A Divisiin is the top level of ASA Softball... ASA killed the Super and Major Divisions years ago because they could not build a program because the same few teams dominated year after year. Exactly like our senior Plus program.

The solution for growing the Plus Division is simple....

The equation to get there is the tuff part BUT, it can be accomplished....

Just figure out what works to weaken the dominant Plus teams a little every year.

Turning over the top is the answer.
July 23, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Well Tim, I think that Donll hit the nail on the head... If you are going to Rate the players on their skill level let's do it in all divisions and start with your team:) I say no more than 3 to 4 major plus types at the major level on one team... if you agreed to this then I would say you have an arguement at breaking up major plus level.. if you don't agree and stack a major team with 8 to 9 impact hitters like you did, no matter what you say their rating is, it's just as bad as leaving the Mavericks intact year after year! IMO
July 23, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Bottom line Tim, is I agree with you however when you have 3 impact players from Spa and then add Wes, Glen, and two Demolition guys you have stacked a major team with 8 impact guys.. then to cry about the majors plus teams dominating is comical... I do agree if you want to build the Major plus division or combine the two you have to put restrictions on the dynasty type teams so that all can compete with a level playing field. IMO
July 24, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Donll, ASA currently limits players in its top Division in the young guys groups. They are also considering going back to Metro restrictions kinda like what ssusadssbats uses as bordering states.
USSSA has had many discussions about doing something similar. At this time they have not incorporated anything/maybe has to do with their CEOs son playing on the most dominant Major team.

Your AA argument has a little validity to it....don't know how you handle the worst of the worst to make the game better for Them?

I do think it's easy to handle the best of the best to make the game better for ALL....Break them up a little
July 24, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
So we can compete next year, Eh Timmy? :-)
July 24, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Isn't there a rule that if a Major team picks up players from a Major-plus team, they are re-classified to Major-plus?
July 24, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Swing, as far the SPA list goes.... It looks to me like one guy in norcal gave them some names.

One of the guys on the list from our team has never been mentioned by you or anyone else as a Plus or Major Division game changer? But he does stand out for a Pleasanton fifty and over league filled with 60 year olds.

I think anything that can be done to entice Major teams to move up after they have EARNED being bumped is good for senior ball.

As far as "listing" individual players goes..... That's almost impossible to do considering many great players don't play much, age and injury reduce their abilities quickly, and there is always someone comming out of no where.

I think the current SSUSA system is working very well except for the Plus Division.

That's why I think SSUSA should keep their system intact (except for the you hit a few to many home runs so your bumped thing that put a few NorCal AAA teams to major after Vegas last winter. Power alone does not win games) and start doing to the dominant Plus teams what they do to the every dominant team in every other Division...ie....you can stay in the Division you just dominated but you can only have X amount of Plus Champions on your roster.
July 24, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
I've changed my mind, I don't want any Major teams to move up to Major Plus. Just let them all keep playing down. I only want to play the teams that want to play the best and try to beat the best teams in the nation in senior softball in the Plus division.
July 24, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Elitist.......:)
July 24, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Mario, that's the kind of attitude that killed the ASA Super Division when we were young.

Then when Super was done that same attitude came down and killed the second tier Major program you were playing in.

Somehow we have to learn from the past.

Leaving dominate teams intact year after year HAS NEVER WORKED at any level, in any Association.

Our senior programs must change how they are handling the Plus Divisions of they ever want them to succeed/grow.
July 24, 2012
Mario
Men's 50
381 posts
Tim, I don't know you so I can assume you don't know me. I don't have an attitude about this. Everybody else does. Our Major Plus team only has 6-7 Major plus guys now. How is busting up out team going to solve anything? Its not, because we would find other role players to fill the spots that we are required to vacate. I believe that the team you are describing that you are putting together could compete at the Plus level. The team we played this past weekend in Dalton has been together 18 months. They started last season as a AAA team. I have played numerous Major teams that on any given day could beat us. I just believe that there is not a lot of difference between Major and Major Plus. Like I said not everyone wants to play top level and thats OK. SO it is what it is, all this on this board is not going to change anything. If I wanted to play more than what I do now I would move down to the Major level. Me personally, I want to play against the best the way it is right now. But I know for a fact that there are Major teams that could play up but for whatever reason they stay down.
July 24, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
90 posts
Tim,
You say you want to grow the upper division. It sounds like ASA’s plan didn’t grow the upper division but quite the opposite got rid of it. And you mention history, but didn’t that show that once you got rid of the super division then the same problems happened in the major? What makes you seem to think it will be any different in Senior Softball?

Softball, I believe, is like a pyramid with the “best” teams at the top. They are, by definition, fewer in number. Softball’s growth has always been at the lower divisions. Pushing the top teams at those lower divisions upward allows that growth. It sounds like your team has become one that is considered a top team in its division. Much to your chagrin it is being pushed upward. Your team playing the next level up would obviously help grow the uppers. It would also allow more room for the top AAA teams and so on down the line. So, for the good of softball, I would think you would want to move up and play.

I believe it is players like Mario and their attitudes that allow softball to grow, not only at the highest levels but all levels. And players/teams, who when faced with the challenge of moving up, selfishly quit or break up, actually are destroying not only growth at the upper levels but growth at all levels of softball.

Mango,
Sommerville Softball

July 24, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Mario-I have been quiet on this topic, but you finally touched on a point that I have believed for a while now. After watching for years, I have realized that a lot of the times the difference between a major team and a major plus team is mostly mental. The physical abilities may appear very close, but some teams mesh well, work harder, and learn to win better than others. Some teams are mentally beat the second they step on the field-and you cannot win that way. When I moved from AAA to M+, I BELIEVED I could play that level and hold my own. And I am working even harder to get better. I believe we can get better and compete with Turn Two in Vegas! If I improve my play by a couple hits, and everyone else does the same, we will!
July 24, 2012
donll
58 posts
Tim,
I agree with Mango and Webbie. If more people had the same attitude as those guys (Mario and Webbie) there would be more growth at the upper levels. And as Mango says foster growth at all levels as well. It's actually the attitude of the guys who "break up" rather than "play up" that stifle growth and killed the upper division in ASA.
July 24, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Donll, Webbie, I agree with about everything on this thread.. I believe that you need to have more than 20 teams in 50s major plus in the entire country... I just think you should have some rules with regions imposed so that teams can't load up so much with flying in the talent!.. has nothing to do with wanting to compete at the highest level..IMO
July 24, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Let's see..we have Mango, Mario and Donll and Webbie25 all supporting not weakening the World Winner in the Plus Division...

I don't know who all of you play with but......it's not to far fetched to think you guys are on teams that might have to be regulated a little bit after winning a Plus World
.
My how the debate has turned...it used to be combine us with Major, we need more teams....and now.....thinking some Dynasty's might take a little hit because they have proven to be dominate at Plus it's turning into leave us along we don't need no stinker Major teams. Or it didn't work in ASA...actually ASA is just starting to try regulating players at their top level.

And Mango....I see you posted your with Summersville....we're you a Maverick when they went something like 118-2? And if you were....please explain how that fed your competitive needs . And...... How was your domination good for enticing Major teams to move up?

As for if....our team is ever dominant enough at major to get moved to Plus.....I hope we would get hot and win the SSUSA World so I could go to the senior summit and say.....I am the coach of a Plus world Championship team and I believe you should start with us being the first of many upcomming champions to only be able to come back with six players if we want to compete in our age group again.

Mango......many many years ago I coached a team that won the USSSA AA World.....the following year utrip put a few additional players from my team on the major players list.....I told Dan Brown/the western Director, that was the proper thing to do. We never won the world again...turning over the top was the right thing to do.

I have lived what I am preaching, and have pushed for player restrictions at the Major level of utrip for many years.

I am sorry of your worried my concept would hurt your little Summersville dynasty...BUT...your Maverick/Summersville stuff is bad for the health of senior softball. It reduces the ability to entice Major teams to move up and possible keeps Plus teams from sticking around...

I would choose to throw a few of your Champions off your bus until you reach 55s, then your go through the whole process all over again.

Turning over the top has been proven to be healthier for every other Division. It's lunacy to stop doing it at the top.
July 24, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Mango, one more thing.

I would gladly look at playing Plus after we proved we were too good for Major at SSUSA Major Worlds.

If that happens we would have to understand for the good of the Division/SSUSA we should not be able to come back with more then X amount of returning players/just like its being done at this time.

What I cannot understand is....why should that stop one level below the top?

As I see it...your Mavericks team should have had Champion players filling many other teams rosters if you guys kept winning worlds like you did BUT...if there is a stand alone so cal state rule....I doubt very much that would have happened...AND.....SSUSA SOFTBALL WOULD BE BETTER OFF FOR IT.

It's time to see of eliminating the Plus dynastys could help grow the Plus Division by reducing the talent gap between Major and Plus...heaven knows letting dynasty's stay together isn't working.
July 24, 2012
Webbie25
Men's 60
1983 posts
Tim-In a roundabout way you are right-I do not support weakening the top teams, BUT I do advocate strengthening the rest of the teams. Donnie from Turn Two made the comment to me as we left that I was a good pickup for GSF from AAA. Do you really think there are not a lot of others at that level that could play and be good pickups? I was far from the best player at AAA, yet am holding my own at Major +. I think you are going about it backwards-we need to find a way to get those better players to come up to major plus and give it a run. Turn Two set a high standard for me/us to shoot at. I would rather catch them by improving, rather than pass them as they go down.
July 24, 2012
donll
58 posts
Tim,
Just curious… you said you won the AA got bumped up and never won again. Did you play at the major level or just quit? And if there was a major level then AA was not the top? And if you just quit and did not play the next level up how is that turning over the top? And if you just quit that is the attitude that kills the upper level. Although you would be “living what you’re preaching”.

Mario, Webbie and Mango also seem to be “living what they’re preaching” as well. Playing at the highest level.

Still not sure how you feel softball should force teams to break up is good/ grows softball.
You break up Sommerville and half go to an existing plus team and the other half retires, moves up a division or filters onto a major team. That major team, lets say yours, now moves up and takes their place. You still have the same number of teams. Only small children believe that a cookie broken in half is now 2 cookies.

Nobody is asking your team to break up. And as far as the discussion/debate is going - I think everyone pretty much know it’s always been about your team moving up.
July 25, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Webbie, the only other concept even remotely possible for moving players up is already being done.

SSUSA ranks players by the highest ranked team they played on in the last two years.

If their team gets bumped so do they.

To attempt to make a indidual player ranking committee is a loooong process filled with many holes for over evaluating individuals and having talented players be missed either accidentally or on purpose.

An example of this is a teammate of mine.....although very talented SPA has a "restricted players list", he is on that list, and there is no way anyone would rightly believe he is one of the top 55 players in the country.

I was part of the utrip major/elite list committee (a group of seven people from accross the country) and it was tons of work. We at that time were only following the top 25-30 teams in the country and it still was not a science.

Now how many teams are there in senior ball?

How many new players show up our of nowhere for a few tourneys every year that are above average?

Who is going to spot them playing so a committee can evaluate them?

That's why I believe having a "process" is the better answer....my process would be an attempt to weaken the top finishing Plus teams at Worlds.

I would suggest to start doing this by adding ALL of players on the Championship teams roster to a list and inform them if they want to come back to the same Division they have just dominated they cannot bring back more them X amount of players....personally my X would equal 6.

If....after evaluating this process it appears these restrictions are not strong enough I would recommend stricter rules...ie.... Maybe also limiting the amounted players from the second and third place teams returning if they are dominating in a fashion that would get them bumped if they were in a lower Division.......

Maybe the number of returning six players from the Championship is to high or to low?
July 25, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
When should they break up your major team Tim.. After you guys roll Manteca? of Yuba City? ;)
July 25, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Donll,

1) our team did not move to USSSA Major.

We had to drop players to stay AA.

I say had to, because our budget was around $35,000.

To have a Major team at that time required at least three times as much sponsorship as we had.

Mango is on Parnells team. Maybe he can ask Ron what Richs Superiors budget was in 1992? They would have been one of the tem or somMajor teams we would have competed against.

We also would have had to change half our roster to compete regularly at Major.

2) Mario, Webbis and Mango are "living what they are preaching".

The problem with this is.....what they are preaching is not working..

How else to explain the lunacy of the Plus guys continuing to try to get most or all of the Major program eliminated so they have more teams to beat up on.

Obviously Plus is not enticing Major teams to move up...Senior ball needs to look at the reason why. I answer it's because dynasty type teams are allowed to dominate the Division year after year after year. This needs to change if your ever going to grow the Division.

Force feeding Major teams up to a failed process is not curing the problem.

3) "still not sure how softball breaking teams up is good for growing softball?"...

SSUSA breaks teams up every time they bump them....if you look at bumped teams rosters one year later, I'd be very surprised if their rosters are the same as before they were bumped. This process, already being used, helps to regulate every other Division of senior softball.

4) your half cookie concept.....although quit cute. Your missing the biggest part of the story/math question...

Webbie has a one ounce cookie, and Maverick has a two ounce cookie.
If you cut Marevicks cookie in half and give one of the pieces to Mango, who has the heaviest cookie?

5) my views on this issue have never been about our team. For many years I have pushed for USSSA to incorporate concepts/restrictions on their major teams to allow upward migration of teams towards the Major level which is equal to our senior Plus group.
ASA has started to incorporate a process to regulate the top of their program. USSSA , in my opinion, will in the forseeable future will be forcing USSSA into similar actions.

Since around 1988 I have always been supportive of concepts to limit the ability of Dynasty's to exist, let alone dominate.

Softball is a participation sport....having a level playing field as balanced as possible should be the top goal of any senior softball association... Allow Dynasty's to stay intact after they have proven dominant has proven to be hurt the health of the game...THAT'S WHY EVERY ASSOCIATION BUMPS TEAMS OUT OF THE DIVISIONS THEY HAVE DOMINATED!

I just cannot understand why what they know works In every other Division of their association should stop being true once you get to Plus ball?
July 25, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Swing, any team should be bumped as soon as they dominate in a World event filled with the top teams in the country.
I support the associations bump rules for winners of worlds.
I do not support the associations bumping of teams in limited regional events...ie... Reno....cal cup....winter worlds.....

ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY BUMP TEAMS THAT DIDN'T MAKE TOP TWO AT THE EVENT, OR EVEN PLACE TOP FIVE.
July 25, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
I agree with you Tim, I feel the exact same way.. it should truly be a world or national event with all the top teams.. Reno, Cal cup winter worlds prove you are a good team... Worlds prove you are a great team!
July 25, 2012
SSUSA Staff
1268 posts
Actually, the SSUSA policy is to bump teams before the World's if it becomes apparent, or reasonably so, that a team other than a Major+ team will dominate the World's. The purpose of all of the Regional Qualifiers administered by the SSUSA and the other qualifiers run by independent tournament directors is to ensure that every team is in the proper rating group for the World's event.

Further, we believe that there are only two things a team must do to win a World Championship, one of which they can control. Those two are [1] to play as close to their potential as possible over an extended number of games and [2] to catch a 'break' or two along the way, like a lucky bounce, maybe even a bad call that went their way.

What they do NOT have to do is be in a 30-team bracket with one team that is virtually guaranteed a championship merely by showing up because we failed to identify and move that team to an appropriate division for their skill set beforehand. (The same is true of a team that has no chance to win and we missed moving them down in time.) We will continue to do everything we can with respect to team ratings between now and Las Vegas to ensure a level and competitively balanced tournament for every team.

July 25, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Staff, that's all any one Division can ask for.

Except..... I believe you're exception for Major + teams is the main reason Plus is not able to grow.

I can only speak for myself and my experience.

A few years ago I was part of a team that went to Plus Worlds and went 0-5....

Most of our loses were by 6-8 runs. In the other loses we unfortunately were the home team and had to face an open inning...in those games we were home team we were destroyed.

I understand your desire to fairly regulate Divisions of play.

Unfortunately at this time I don't see that happening at the Plus level.

There is no reason for your understandable regulations to stop being good for the game at the Plus level.

It makes no since to me to allow PROVEN dominant teams to continue to dominate Plus ball when you RIGHTLY would not allow it in any of your other Divisions.

I say this not as an attack on SSUSA. I understand your association has been looking at ways to grow/regulate the Plus programs of your individual age groups. I hope my suggestion, or something similar will be considered.

Somehow.....the game needs to figure out how to weaken any "dominant" Plus teams to entice upward migration of Major teams.

As it is now...it's obvious the bumped Major teams do not see competing at the Plus Division as enticing.

Every association needs to figure out a method of regulating the dynasys in the top Division/Plus just like they do every other Division if they ever desire a growing Division. Its obvious Plus is not working now well now.

I have not really followed/interacted in the inner workings of senior ball like I did when I was playing with the youngsters but, I am looking forward to voicing my feelings and maybe even trying to take a more active role if one becomes available in a senior ball Association.

SSUSA has a good thing going...I think there are just little tweaks needed.
I have enjoyed many years playing softball and look foreword to many more.
July 25, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
ditto what Timmy says and Don't let him load his team to much in Major! ;-)
July 25, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Speaking of the 50+ division because that is the only one I have played in ... There is only one dominant team, Sommerville (Mavericks) and their 118-2 (actually 3) win-loss record. It's not their fault that they are winning all the time, they are not going to let other teams win. But SSUSA has made it even tougher for other teams to compete with them, with the increased HR's, increased runs per inning and 2 players outside borders that only they can afford to utilize. If anything, bring the rules back to where they were last year, just those will give more teams a chance to compete with them, which actually happened last season.
July 25, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Jawood, Tim and myself agree with you and more should be done! when you have only 20 teams in the entire country in M+ there is a problem!
July 25, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
90 posts
Tim
Yikes! Ouch!! Ahhhhh… Sorry I/we wrecked senior softball. I’ve been reading your position on making the major plus division more suitable for your team to be able to play in for a while now. And I refrained from making any comments even though many of the things you and others have said about our team are not true-from our budget size, to our record, to where our players come from. Your comments demean our team, and make it sound like what we have done was easy. I assure you it was not. One of the most difficult parts was coming on a team that had been in existence for a long period of time without a lot of success at the Major Plus level and changing their attitude. When the attitude changed so did the level of success.

But I couldn’t refrain from commenting when you made the statement about Mario- that his attitude- “wanting to play the best teams is what kills the upper division”. On prima fascia value alone that statement is ridiculously wrong-“players wanting to play up kills the upper level”? That doesn’t even make sense. But I can tell from Mario’s “attitude” that he is a big boy and doesn’t need my help. Congratulations to him and OKI for winning SPA worlds. I hope nobody makes them break up before the SSUSA worlds. If they did there would be less teams at the world, not more.

Tim- I understand you are passionate about your viewpoint. I like passion. I also like facts. You have many facts wrong about who we are. I would be willing to share those facts with you over a friendly beer sometime. Best of luck to you and your team this season, at whatever level you play at- you have a lot of good players on that team. I wish you all the success you deserve.


Mango
Sommerville Softball
July 25, 2012
donll
58 posts
Breaking News- the International Olympic Committee has just declared Michael Phelps ineligible for the 2012 games, seems he has won too many medals at previous Olympics (16). They said its time to give others a chance to win.
July 25, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Our team enjoys the challenge of playing Sommerville. The only problem is SSUSA said they were going to move more teams up to make a decent Major-plus program but has dropped the ball, making for a very small classification. The increase in limits have made it very hard for a legit Major team to compete with the Major-plus teams. If they brought back some of those limits, we could have a decent Major-plus program or blend those teams into the Major program.
July 25, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Mango, do you like playing the same three teams in CA????? do you think this is how it should be? I'm sure some of the info about your team maybe wrong but how much of it is true? How many guys are from the same 200mile area? I know Naz/Longhorns were flying guys north and south combination from CA.. How does a Major team that mostly self sponsor compete with that?
July 25, 2012
Lecak
Men's 55
1012 posts
Mango good to see you guys in San Clemente. We enjoyed the two games with you guys. For those that haven't played Somerville I have played against most of these guys for almost 10 years. They were Courtesy Auto as a 40 team and aged up. They added a few guys, Mango correct me but all but two of your guys are within 40 miles of each other. We had a good conversation about the major/major plus debate. It's doable I believe with the right thought that doesn't break up teams. I don't think teams should be broken up at our age. Mango you and I had pretty good seats to last weekends games. What I saw was 4 athletic teams with some differences, some were subtle, some big, a lot of Hr's some really bad pitching. The big difference was not in the hitting but the fielding and pitching.
July 26, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Mando, I don't remember calling out Mario over wanting to play the best.
What I did argue with Mario is allowing the same few teams to dominate a Division is not working in plus ball.

All I keep hearing is bump major teams bump major teams. This does not solve the problem with Dunasty Plus teams.

I mean really, how bad would it hurt your Summerville team if you won worlds and could only return six players....

It's obvious that you guys fear having to rbuild half your roster if you win but...... Why would it not be worth it of you could actually make Fift Plus a 20 team Division.

I mean seriously.... All I keep hearing about our team in this thread is look at bumping them even though we have never won anything.

If its good for the game to remove dominate teams from the AA AAA MAJOR LEVELS..... Why is it not good to do the same thing to the dominat plus teams.... I mean really....118-2 or something stupid like that.

The problem is not lack of major teams thinking about moving up... It's the talent Difference between plus dynastys and major teams at this time.

So naturally.... Weakening the dominate plus teams is the only solution.


July 26, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
And one way to weaken the dominate teams is to not allowing players outside bordering states... That's a start at least.
July 26, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
I'd say split the stand alone states in half and only allow rosters from boardering states with total populations not to exceed X amount.

As an example split California into north and south. no snow birds, I'd also say no team can have players from more the three states.

I would not recommend forcing a lot of major teams to Plus until senior softball figures out a way to weaken the dynasty's in Plus ball.

I have given my suggestion..... Maybe there is another way to do what SSUSA does in every other Division.... Remove/drastically weaken the Dominant teams so there continues to be upward migration.

In every other division SSUSA only allows dominant teams to return the the Division they dominated with three players..

I'd say letting the Dominant Plus teams return with twice as many players (6) in more then fair.
July 26, 2012
donll
58 posts
Tim Says-
"So naturally.... Weakening the dominate plus teams is the only solution."

Turns out Tim was right- the only solution is weakening the dominate team. The International Olympic Organization realizing that this is the ONLY solution reversed itself and said Michael Phelps may now compete in the 2012 Olympics despite 16 previous medals. However they made the stipulation that he must cut off his right arm to allow other swimmers a better chance to win. Sounds kinda silly doesn't it?
July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Let's break up Microsoft, it has gotten much too large. We all saw how well breaking up AT&T worked out.
July 26, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Kinda funny how the Plus guys think treating the dominant teams in the Plus Division the same as every other dominant team in every other SSUSA Division doesn't make sence?????. Especially when every other Division of senior ball is in a healthier state.
Kinda hard to listen to the Plus guys crying to destroy the Major Division so they have someone to beat up on.
If Plus dunastys are not open to find ways to reduce the divide in talent between the dynasty's in Plus and the large majority of major teams maybe you guys can just have your couple team tourneys for the rest of time.
It's way past time to grow Plus ball by reducing the divide in talent with the Major Division.
July 26, 2012
pattontax
10 posts
Tim, instead of complaining about getting beat by Sommerville all the time, you and the rest of your team should get in better shape, practice more, play more and just become better players. It doesn't make any sense to break up a team because they are beating everyone else. Sommerville/Mavericks have been the dominant senior team over the last 5 years at least. I watched them play in San Clemente a couple of weeks ago and they won because they were better athletes than the teams they played. They are basically all 5 tool players who can hit with power, average, run, throw and catch the ball. In that tournament with the home run restrictions they played small ball and still won easily. They beat an excellent 50 major team, Arizona Elite by playing better defense and by out basehitting them. You could only go one-up with home runs and than walks.

When I played for the Las Vegas Stars we normally beat the Mavericks. When I played for Pilchers they would usually beat us. I've played on 50 major teams against them and they kicked our butts pretty good. I admit it wasn't much fun playing against them on a 50 major team that didn't belong on the same field as them. We just made sure we were the visiting team so we didn't have to face them in the open inning. I do enjoy competing against them and hitting against them.

July 26, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tim, just curious. If you win a tournament because you were successful in legislating out of existence any and all teams that apparently you cannot beat, will that be fulfilling and rewarding for you?
July 26, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Well Pattonax, I feel the same way about competing against the elite.. have beaten them too. I will agree with Tim though, that the Major plus division is in Trouble (IMO) because of how it's being run.. Three teams in CA and one team on the verge of breaking up? 20 teams in the entire country or less! How fun is it to play the same 3 teams every weekend. If major plus likes this then so be it.. If my team or Tims team move up to Major plus next year with it's currant format, I wouldn't find it much fun playing the same three teams here in CA!

Now if you made some changes like the boarder rules,divide stand alone states in two regions etc, played by new rules 1 up after seven homers and walks after you are one up. Then you would be making it more competitive between the two divisions and you should just combine them into one Major division. IMO
July 26, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
I guess I would like to know what the major plus 50s teams think of their minuscule division? Is it cool to play the same three teams in CA? Do you think it should be improved and expanded?
July 26, 2012
Allan55
80 posts
There is not an easy fix to the major plus problem. However, I don't feel moving a number of major teams up (that haven't won anything) is the answer just because there aren't enough teams to play.
The fix can be found in the area of which teams choose players. That means not allowing teams to pick up players from 2, 3, or 4 states and dividing the larger states in half. That would be the starting point.
July 26, 2012
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1003 posts
Well 2011 worlds in Phx... 7 major plus teams 36 major teams..
July 26, 2012
LeeLee
86 posts
Hey Pattontax , first off, Tim isn't complaing about getting beat by Sommerville. Secondly please don't question the charter, ability or physical shape and condition of the players on Tim's team without knowing anything about them. Tim is just stating his opinioion on how to try make things to improve the Major+ division. So why don't you try to be help with a positve solution rather than a negative comment.
July 26, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
90 posts
Hey Joe,
Yes it was good seeing you in San Clemente a couple of weeks ago. And as far as the geographic make up of our team you are correct. When we played in the 45’s we were a team made up ENTIRELY of southern California players- we ALL lived within 70 miles of each other-though most every other team we met and defeated at the worlds (for 6 years) were multi- state teams. By the way, we never complained about multi state/no geographic restriction teams- those were the rules. We didn’t even care when a norcal team was flying in players from Washington and as far away as Valdosta Georgia to try and beat us. The rules allowed it. We just beat them with our local socal guys and our very limited sponsorship.

When we joined the Mavericks they had 1 norcal guy –the only one of 18 players that didn’t live within 70 miles of us. Actually for one of those years we had 1 and a half players from Norcal(Sorry DuffJ). And California was an island so we had no exemptions or bordering states players.

Recently, As Sommerville Softball, 2 of our socal boys moved to adjoining states. Fortunately for us California is no longer and island and those 2guys who have played with us for years and are from socal can still play with us. So yes Joe, you are right that 2 of our guys no longer live within 70 miles of us.
Again great seeing you Joe, best of luck to you and your team.

Mango
July 26, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Mango, you just made my argument for me.

Obviously SSUSA trying to restrict the talent level by state restriction is not working well enough to grow/build a healthy Plus Division.

My suggestion of added restriction of limiting the number of returning players to dominant/Chamionship Plus teams is nothing more then an idea to reduce the talent gap between Major and Plus. Nothing more then another attempt to keep dynasty's from destroying Divisions by being to strong to entice teams to move up.

ONLY when The dominant Plus dynastys talent level reduces will senior softball be able to get Major teams to move up regularly.

The main reason Plus is Shriviling/dying on the vine is the dynasty's that have been allowed to survive there.

In no other Division of senior ball do you have groups of players that have been able to dominate their Division like some Plus teams have been allowed to do.

THAT'S WHY I BELIEVE IT'S GOOD FOR THE PLUS DIVISION TO TREAT THE DOMINANT TEAMS IN A MANNER CLOSE TO WHAT HAPPENS IN EVERY OTHER DIVISION....IF YOU DOMINATE YOU HAVE ROSTER LIMITATIONS THAT MAKE IT VERY HARD TO DOMINATE IN THE FASHION YOU HAVE AGAIN.

If someone needs to be on a dominant team to enjoy playing senior softball....I think the game would be better without them.

I don't know if that includes any players talking on this thread..but..I do believe,if you cannot see the Plus Division needs changes....you have to be blind.
July 26, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Pattontax, I am not complaining about being beat.

I actually started talking about my concept after the Plus guys started crying all the time about merging Major with their FAILED concept of a Plus Division.

Feeding the Major Division to the screwed up Plus Division is not the answer to fixing pluses problems.

Maybe one of the Plus guys can come up with a better method to reduce the talent gap between Major and Plus...but to this point they have not mentioned one valid method to eliminate the Plus Dynasty's that are killing the Plus Division.

July 26, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Gary 19, I stopped playing softball for fullfilment or reward in 1991.

At that time I realized softball was a hobby played by few and followed by even less.

I look at softball as a way to go hang with friends, laugh, rage and the to compete just a little.

I am not one of those guys that think softball rings mean anything.

The only ring of any value to me is the one my wife wears on her left hand...that is what I live for.

For those guys that think it's great to win softball rings..that's. Great for them...but meaningless to me.

Last year at Major Worlds we were two and O at one point.

When we lost and were put in the losers bracket I was happy...I knew all the great guys on our team were going to be able to stay together and go back to compete at the Major level this year...if we had won the tourney we would have had three bad choices to make...cut friends to get better, or stay together and get whooped at Plus Worlds, or break up for Worlds...none of which would have been enjoyable.
July 26, 2012
Jawood
Men's 50
798 posts
Mango, I am not in favor of breaking up teams just because you are good ... although the 2 players outside your bordering states are helping you quite nicely and that rule needs to come to an end.
July 27, 2012
Gary19
Men's 50
2615 posts
Tim, you can hang with your friends and laugh playing the best teams. You don't need to Socialistically weaken your division just to laugh and hang, do you?
July 27, 2012
Mango
Men's 50
90 posts
Hey Jawood,
I'm not sure about how well that rule helps or hurts the plus division. It's probably too new to tell. Also just to set the record straight we actually have only 1 player outside our bordering state, and yes he is very good. But...he has only played in 2 tournaments with us ever. He played with us once in SPA a couple years ago and once this year in Reno. That rule hasn't "made" our team. How that rule helps other plus teams or major teams that want to move up probably remains to be seen. I'm not sure if you guys or other teams have had a chance to utilize it yet or not.


You guys had a couple of bad breaks with injuries in Reno this year, but it was good playing you guys in the finals again this year. I liked the outcome better this year than last. Best of luck to you and your team.

Mango
July 27, 2012
MurrayW
Men's 50
92 posts
Tim, you state: "if we had won the tourney we would have had three bad choices to make...cut friends to get better, or stay together and get whooped at Plus Worlds, or break up for Worlds...none of which would have been enjoyable."

If you force a major plus team to break up aren't you forcing them to cut friends or break up? Why is this any less enjoyable for major plus players than others?
July 27, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Murray, a good argument there but you did not see me write that I thought if we won the Major World or dominated Major ball the whole year that we should be allowed to stay at the Major Division and continue to hurt that Division by dominating it again.

I actually believe its healthy for the Division to move dominat teams out of the Division they are totally dominating.

Sometimes teams need to be "adjusted" for make a Divisiin healthier.

That's why SSUSA has state restrictions, and bump up rules..... Unfortunately those restrictions are not strong enough to build a healthy plus Division.

I am sure there would be more then a few of the major teams that have been bumped in the past that would have supported the concept I have put foreword. Heck some of the very limited Plus teams would probably like something like this incorporated.

In NorCal we used to have two plus teams... One, the longhorns have disbanded..... The other East Bay Oldies have tried to get rclassed.

I agree with those that have posted on this thread that the new rules incorporated in Plus will not work...ie two out of area players, hr are walks after the royal is reached and nine runs per inning.

To sum it all up..... Obviously SSUSA wants a method to regulate dynasty style teams, that's why they bump and restrict where your players come from..... All I am saying is..... Obviously the limits set are not strong enough to eliminate Dynasty Plus teams in an effort to grow a
healthy Plus program.
July 27, 2012
Marv19
Men's 60
444 posts
I don't know how this will be resolved but I will tell you that working with Mango and Don both David Sommerville teams is a real pleasure. These two franchises are class acts. I absolutely respect the integrity and sportsmanship these two teams represent. IMO it has to start with good management. As a local association I have had more managers tell me we want to see the best so our guys know what its like to play the best. I had a triple A team tell me recently he'd like to play them once so his guys would know what really good is. I know him well and he was serious. I know its probably not a good analogy but when I play golf with a really good golfer my game improves. I wish I could have charged admission for the Games in San Clemente in the upper division. It was a real treat to watch these guys do battle. Well... except for the hockey game that broke out twice :O) We use a simple one up at all our events and it does keep the scoring down and lets the weaker team have a better chance. It will be different at SPA WN in September. But the 400 foot shots there are retrievable. (Don’t park behind the left field fence on field 6 :0) I believe SPA’s approach to this is to develop an impact player list with the help of all the SPA affiliates throughout the country. I know Ridge doesn't like to see teams break up and have to dissolve so I know they are looking at this issue as well. BTW Sommerville did not go undefeated. AZ Elite beat them 18-12 (seriously 12)in pool play. What is that saying "On any given Sunday" Good luck with this topic. It is an enjoyable read.
July 27, 2012
Cyclone55
1 posts
Hopefully SSUSA contacts every coach at the Major and Major + level before they make a big change versus just talking to a few or to thier favorites. Combining the 2 divisions could end up doing a lot more harm versus good. One division has the best overall participation and the other has the worst overall participation. Rolling them together could be successful or it could be very destructive. One thing I am sure of is that you won't see 43 teams showing up in Las Vegas (36 major teams and 7 major + teams). I would think if the two divisions were combined this number would drop to 20 teams (maybe even less), why would teams that currently go .500 or less in the major division at worlds show up next year when they will be even less competitive?
July 27, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Murray, a good argument there but you did not see me write that I thought if we won the Major World or dominated Major ball the whole year that we should be allowed to stay at the Major Division and continue to hurt that Division by dominating it again.

I actually believe its healthy for the Division to move dominat teams out of the Division they are totally dominating.

Sometimes teams need to be "adjusted" for make a Divisiin healthier.

That's why SSUSA has state restrictions, and bump up rules..... Unfortunately those restrictions are not strong enough to build a healthy plus Division.

I am sure there would be more then a few of the major teams that have been bumped in the past that would have supported the concept I have put foreword. Heck some of the very limited Plus teams would probably like something like this incorporated.

In NorCal we used to have two plus teams... One, the longhorns have disbanded..... The other East Bay Oldies have tried to get rclassed.

I agree with those that have posted on this thread that the new rules incorporated in Plus will not work...ie two out of area players, hr are walks after the royal is reached and nine runs per inning.

To sum it all up..... Obviously SSUSA wants a method to regulate dynasty style teams, that's why they bump and restrict where your players come from..... All I am saying is..... Obviously the limits set are not strong enough to eliminate Dynasty Plus teams in an effort to grow a
healthy Plus program.
July 27, 2012
LeeLee
86 posts
Marv19. I get what you said about the AAA team wanting to playiing Sommerville, ask them if they want to play them in every tournament , special the ring tournaments. Yeah I want to spend alot of time and money to go to LV to play in tournamet, I know I can't win? But I am going to get to know what good really is and I can say I played the best team in the nation and got my ass kicked. No not me I just go play with my friends in a tournament like in Tahoe and take my wife and well have a good time and we might even win it.
July 27, 2012
Tim Millette
498 posts
Marv, SPA is trying something new with its impact players list..... Unfortunately at this time SPA can not see that just regulating two list players at Major and unlimited list players on Plus teams does not shrink the the talent gap between Major and Plus.....

Maybe in the future SPA could keep the players restrictions on list players on major rosters (2) and double that number to allow Plus teams to have no more then 4 impact listed players on their rosters.

This would reduce the divide between major and plus and very likely make playing plus ball more enticing.

The only problem with the SPA LIIST is..... Unless you have a black and white system for impact listing players many top impact players will fall through the cracks and some not do impact players will be stuck on the list.

I have a team mate who is on the impact players list...... Although talented there is no way he Should be on the list.

I know SPA has never seen us play so I have to assume that my team mates name was given to SPA by a softball guy with limited experience as to what a modern day 50 impact player looks like.

I looked at the spa list and from a NorCal stand point..... I think they did a "pretty good" job....

Now.... If SPA WOULD LIMIT PLUS TEAMS TO FOUR IMPACT PLAYERS WE ARE FINALLY TALKING ABOUT STARTING TO ADDRESS THE PLUS PROBLEM.
July 27, 2012
LeeLee
86 posts
Oh by the way Marv19 do always play golf with lower handicap golfers than yourself? I am 11 and I don't enjoy playing againist +2, +1 and scratch golfers every tournament. This is just me though. I guess, I could just quit playing tournaments, or they could have a handicap tournament that I could play in. What novel idea.
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