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Online now: 2 members: Johnsr57, TABLE SETTER 11; 60 anonymousDiscussion: TOC qualifier
| Posted | Discussion |
| Aug. 6, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | TOC qualifier Could someone explain why you would penalize a team for being the only one in their prospective age group to enter a TOC qualifier? |
| Aug. 6, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | No matter who we beat in the tourney ssusa won't award a TOC birth. |
| Aug. 6, 2018 Mulldog 9 posts | What a year this has been. When it was not safe to play, they kept money. When we try to play they won't honor the TOC qualifier. |
| Aug. 6, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | Could I get a clarification from a director on the topic? |
| Aug. 6, 2018 TimMcElroy 942 posts | I'm not sure what the question is. You should let the staff know what tournament you're talking about, what age group and which classification. Having your manager call the office is an excellent place to begin. |
| Aug. 6, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | Northern Championships 40 major They aren't even going to let us play. Even if they put us in the 50's bracket and we won they won't give us the birth. There are so few over 40 teams in the northeast and to penalize a team that enters a tournament is wrong. We didn't enter knowing we would be the only team we entered to earn our spot in Florida. |
| Aug. 6, 2018 Duke Men's 65 908 posts | brhodes27, I could be wrong, but the current list of teams that have qualified for the TOC in February 2019 that I was looking at, is the previous year's list of qualifying teams. It appears that it has not been updated for the current year? Check out the dates listed and you will the old year. Andy Smith, USED2BE |
| Aug. 6, 2018 Duke Men's 65 908 posts | OOPPSS!! "...you will see the old year listed" |
| Aug. 7, 2018 Rick35 Men's 55 78 posts | brhodes27 - I think what make senses to me is that in previous tourneys that I played in...I have seen a 40 major team played in 50 major pool/tourney. For them to be able to qualify for TOC berth, they have to win outright in 50 major bracket (while the runner-up whom is a 50 major team won the 50 major title and received berth to TOC). Just like the recent tourney I played in ISA senior world series, and Bad Boyz team whom is 50 Major Plus team, played in 50 Major pool/bracket, and they didn't win the major plus title 'cuz they were eliminated in semifinal game. (Of course they had to give either 5 run or 11 defensive men on field to other teams in pool/bracket games). |
| Aug. 7, 2018 Uncle Mike Men's 60 122 posts | The 2019 TOC list teams is at the bottom of the Tournaments tab- 2018 Events-then open the TOC 2019. Once that opens, look under the Worth logo and click on Teams currently qualified for 2019 TOC. |
| Aug. 7, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | what I'm told is they would have allowed us to play in the 50's bracket but the major plus team didn't want to play us....smh |
| Aug. 7, 2018 DEJ13 18 posts | I would love to here the answer from SSUSA on this because this tournament has been on our schedule since February. Players have taken off of work. Hotels have been reserved. I can not believe we are being told we CAN NOT play. SSUSA makes up rules as they go along. I have reasearched the past few years and have seen TOC tournaments where only 1 team in a particular age group/division has been allowed to play. I am calling BS on this one. |
| Aug. 7, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | brhodes27 ... From your very first post in this thread, you have a misunderstanding on the TOC bid criteria ... Being the only team ("singleton") entered in a TOC event does NOT prohibit you from earning the bid ... If you win whatever division you are in, you earn the bid ... But you must win, which is why it's called the Tournament of Champions ... With regard to the Northern Championships: There is not going to be a 40-Masters Division in the Northern Championships because only one 40's team entered ... There are NO 50-Major+ teams in the event, either, contrary to your apparent belief ... DEJ13 ... Your team wasn't told you CAN NOT play, but rather that there was NOBODY for you to play ... Those are conceptually different theories, although they DO yield the same end result ... We appreciate that you did plan to attend, and we are disappointed that NO OTHER 40-Masters teams (or 50-Major+ we could have matched you with) did so ... That's on them, not us ... Your cursory research is partially correct ... We do have "singleton" teams in tournaments, but we seldom (if ever) schedule them against a lower rating group AND a ten-year age spread ... We have ALWAYS protected the competitive integrity of the lower rated and/or older teams in any potential blending of teams ... That doesn't constitute making up rules as we go along, but rather a consistent approach to protecting competitive integrity ... You can pick up the BS flag now ... |
| Aug. 7, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | DaveDowell 3 hrs ago AMR-DBL was a major plus team. I'm curious if someone changed their rating to make it appear you were protecting the integrity of the game. Contrary to your apparent belief we were told we could play in the 50 bracket and then told the major plus team didn't want us to play. |
| Aug. 7, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | Davedowell rereading rereading for comment to DEJ13 in curious that the explanation will be. You stated that if a 50-Major+ team was registered were could have played them. Like I David AMR-DBL was a major+ team a little over 3 hrs ago since 2011. Now they are rated as a major team. The date on their reclassification can't be denied. So here's my question. No matter what they have to win it all to get their birth. BUT it's my understanding that hypothetically they win it as they were rated major +. They get their birth and the 2nd place 50 major team would have also gotten theirs. Now that AMR-DBL has mysteriously been rating changed to 50 major you only have to only give one birth away. Is that protecting the integrity of the game? |
| Aug. 7, 2018 DEJ13 18 posts | DaveDowell3...the other day I wrote down every 50+ team with the rating so I am disagreeing with you because AMR-DBL was 50 major plus. Here is the break down...1-40 major team, 1-50 major + team, 8 - 50 major teams, 2 - 50 AA teams, 8 - 50 AAA teams (but now 7 I believe). So now the BS flag is up a waving for a response on why the rating of the 50 major + team was changed... |
| Aug. 7, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | brhodes27 ... I'm (thankfully) not involved in the ratings decisions by SSUSA, so presumably the team you refer to had a pending rating appeal granted ... I'm the "tournament geek" who writes all the schedules for SSUSA administered events, including this one ... I was given the ratings breakout for schedule preparation late this afternoon, so it's entirely possible that change, regardless when decided, was made public this afternoon ... I was at the Eastern National's in Valdosta, GA, through last night and am not up to speed on office details for the past week or so ... But I can assure you there is no grand (or even not-so-grand) conspiracy to keep you from participating ... Just saw your second post when I was about to reply to your first ... The AMR team is 50-Major (apparently very recently) and is NOT 50-Major+ ... If they had stayed as Major+, and if they consented, we would have asked them to play in the 50-Major GIVING the equalizer and if they won, we would "protect" the runner-up as the 50-Major Champion, and the related TOC bid ... If they were 50-Major+, they would also have the option as a singleton team to play out of age, and it's solely their call ... They obviously believe they are Major or they wouldn't have made the appeal, and apparently the Ratings Committee agreed ... I don't know if your belief that they declined to play against you is correct, and it probably is, but again, that's their call ... We can't compel them to play as a singleton team ... We give them their money back, or credit it to a future tournament (again, solely their decision) ... I hope this helps in understanding the options the teams have, and that we don't compel them to do anything ... |
| Aug. 7, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | DaveDowell good back pedal, a little while ago you had all the answers of what we were told and not. And your dictation of how the toc works was spot on but now you're not up to speed on the situation? Integrity is a funny thing. |
| Aug. 7, 2018 Duke Men's 65 908 posts | While the debate continues, it was nice to see the TOC earned bids list is now current. Hope this all gets resolved. |
| Aug. 7, 2018 DEJ13 18 posts | How convenient their rating changed after we were told we could not play. I would like to see the appeal email would should be dated to reflect your response. |
| Aug. 8, 2018 DEJ13 18 posts | @DaveDowell...Here is some of the correspondence emails From: Stephen Shepanski Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 8:54 AM To: George Moreno Subject: Re: bob johnson/rhnet.org 40 major George, It appears that we are the only 40s team registered for Lansing. I assume we will need to win our bracket vs 50s in order to secure a birth to the TOC or do we automatically qualify by participating? Thanks, Stephen Shepanski On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 1:10 PM George Moreno Hey steve, just had the boss ck out our team list for the northern and you are a singleton team so their will be no one for you to play. As a singleton team there would be not TOC berth. At this point, unless another 40 team gets In, we can refund or credit your entry fee. Pls let me know what you decide. george George Moreno Office Manager 9823 Old Winery Place, Suite 12 Sacramento, CA 95827 Ph: 916-326-5303 Fax: 916-326-5304 E-Mail: george@seniorsoftball.com On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:40 PM George Moreno Hey steve, the 50 major plus team does not want to play a 40’s team, in the northerns, so we will send you a refund ck, sorry, george George Moreno Office Manager 9823 Old Winery Place, Suite 12 Sacramento, CA 95827 Ph: 916-326-5303 Fax: 916-326-5304 E-Mail: george@seniorsoftball.com |
| Aug. 8, 2018 nomar1fan Men's 50 24 posts | Why should the teams playing have a say anyways, they still need to win their games against their age and level while the 40 team has to beat them all. Isn't the idea to get teams to go to this. A 50 team will get a bid either way and an 40 team has a chance. This whole policy of "asking" the teams if it is okay is wrong. Unreal and very disappointing. |
| Aug. 8, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | Looks like this one has "fired up" again ... I'm somewhat surprised that ... • Anyone would assert that we granted one team's ratings appeal for the purpose of preventing another team from participating in a tournament; • Anyone would assert that we should not have granted the appeal to trigger the same end result in favor of your team; • Anyone would do a tag-team posting effort like yours without involving your manager of record (Steve) in the process; and • Anyone would play the "integrity card" and think that would be an effective way to compel us to implement your desired end result ... I'm naturally a curious and problem/puzzle solving type guy ... It's the nature of being the SSUSA's National Scheduling Consultant ... I was originally willing to jump into this one with some insights, even though it's outside of my scope of authority ... But you lost even my support with the last item above ... You're on your own now .. If Steve wants to call us, there may be some things we can discuss ... But it won't be done here dealing with a couple of anonymous non-manager types ... nomar1fan ... Normally that would be the plan ... In this circumstance, we're dealing with a 10 year spread AND a rating bump ... If they want to come and play "Exhibition", we would certainly welcome them ... But that would preclude them earning a TOC bid, which is (appropriately) their goal ... It simply doesn't fit here without at least one more 40+ team ... |
| Aug. 8, 2018 nomar1fan Men's 50 24 posts | Most of the players on the team are at the late end of 40. Driving for an exhibition does not make sense, I just wonder how ISSA can do it and SSUSA can't. I just thought the idea was to get more teams involved not eliminated. |
| Aug. 8, 2018 DEJ13 18 posts | @DaveDowell...the emails are forwarded to our team. I chose to post them so you could see that there was a 50 major plus team in the tournament contrary to your comment saying there was not one. My objective into posting those emails was for you to see the correspondence between Steve and George. Nothing in those emails is bad or malicious so for you to think that is wrong on your part. WE as a team just wanted answers as to the conflicting information not only from the SSUSA office but the previous history of TOC tournaments which I spent time researching this week. Lastly, I am surprised at your speculation as to what my intent was for copying the emails for you to see. I will say WE as a team are disappointed in the way that this was handled since Monday. |
| Aug. 8, 2018 DaveDowell Men's 70 4318 posts | DEJ13 ... The initial post I made in this thread was completely accurate at the time I posted it ... I was not a party to, nor did I even know about, the timing of the re-rating that apparently occurred while I was in Valdosta ... When I was handed the Divisional Breakout document late yesterday, there was NOT a 50-Major+ team in the mix, and I so stated that ... I have no objection to you posting those emails, since they did not contain any personal or disciplinary topics (which are subject to privacy policies) ... We're completely transparent and stand by what we may write ... We're good on that ... It was the "integrity" cheap shot that ticked me off more than just a little bit ... |
| Aug. 8, 2018 brhodes27 16 posts | DaveDowell.... why would you be surprised at our concern? The facts are at 1:40 P.M. an office manager confirmed that there was a 50 Major+ team registered in the tournament. By your statement last night that fact would have allowed us to play and earn our birth. No one asked for a freebie, only an opportunity to earn a spot. Somewhere between 1:40 PM and 5:00 PM that same Major+ team gets reclassified. I don't fault the team for not wanting to play a younger team, that's not my reason for questioning the process. If I was on any of the 50 major team in the tournament I'd have questions also. I'm not anonymous it's easy to click on my name and see my profile. Please don't insult me by pretending to be on our side at any point, you posted last night as if you had all the answers and had to set the record straight when in fact you had zero facts. |
| Aug. 8, 2018 DEJ13 18 posts | DaveDowell...where did I question your personal integrity? NEVER. I posted all facts that I researched since the team list came out Monday. I wrote all team names in my notebook with rating and would be more than happy to show you. IF a rating appeal was submitted by AMR-DLB all I asked was to see proof of this appeal with corresponding dates. From our end things look a bit ambiguous because we are receiving an email that this 50 major plus team refused to let us play when the previous day we were told verbally they had no problem with it. Then yesterday on 8/7 their rating changed from MAJOR PLUS TO MAJOR as our team manager was questioning our potential participation in this tournament. Everything seems very coincidental... |
| Aug. 10, 2018 Pa 40 posts | TOC is awesome much better then worlds and should be a cut above worlds even though worlds is bad ass. There are no slouch teams in the TOC compared to some in worlds. Don`t get me wrong both are fun to play just different knowing every team has won a tournament and are very good... |
| Aug. 10, 2018 DEJ13 18 posts | Pa...I agree with 100%. I would much rather go to TOC than worlds. Unfortunately, we had 4 TOC events on our schedule this year. Only played in one. Two we didn’t play in because of weather and we were not allowed to play in Lansing because no other 40 team signed up. Definitely disappointed as we had to scramble to find on tournament for next weekend and now I have to drive an extra 2 hrs just to play ball. |
| Aug. 11, 2018 Pa 40 posts | DEJ13 bummer that you got rained out and only have 1 shot to qualify now and if you don`t win it you don`t get in we had a great time last years |
