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Discussion: Team ratings

Posted Discussion
March 11, 2019
Funwiththesuns
12 posts
Team ratings
How can a team with major players get rated AAA rating? Doesn't Sacramento look at the roster to see if players have played in the major division before rating them AAA? It seems that some teams are favored over others because of being a bubby. I think SSUSA need to look at rosters to see how many players are major players on a team before rating them AAA. Need to look at the new teams because that is where they are, that's not fair to the true AAA teams!!!
March 11, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
SSUSA thoroughly evaluates all rosters for both new and existing teams whenever they enter and are about to play in an SSUSA sanctioned event ... Under the rules, a team may have up to three (3) "out-of-rating" players without having to move up a rating level ... In the case of AAA teams, that means up to three players with Major history ... If you are a team manager and believe that a team or teams are outside of the criteria, please contact the SSUSA office and voice your concerns ... Be prepared to identify both yourself and the team(s) and players in question and we'll clarify for you ... Until we hear from you, it's just another rumor ... Thanks!

March 11, 2019
TimMcElroy
401 posts
We must be getting close to opening day.
March 11, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
Yep, Tim! ... It's that time of year when teams should spend about 10% as much time worrying about their own team as they do other teams! ... They'd end up having a better ball club ... Winter World's Session #1 (and Session #2 for 65+ in Mesquite) just posted, so the first TOC qualifier of the 2019 calendar year is up next ...
March 11, 2019
pizzaboy
49 posts
Since we're on the subject of ratings I have a question about 65AAA.How can the winner and runner up of the TOC in Feb remain AAA when the 3-5 teams are classified Major.I play for Pill&Pill one of the 3-5 teams so you don't have to look me up.
March 11, 2019
Ozone8
36 posts
And another rating question please...
Is it permissible for a current 60AAA player (he is 65 years old) play with a 65AA team? According to the Team Rating Index Chart that is a TWO R/I difference which is not allowed. Or is it?
March 11, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
pizzaboy ... We don't normally discuss specific teams here, but I can give you some general background since it's apparent you do know the teams ...
For the T.O.C., teams play at the rating level they had when they won their invitation to the event, regardless of what changes may have occurred between their qualifying win and the T.O.C. ... Both teams won their bids at AAA ...
We do not take the T.O.C. results into account for a "new" rating (up OR down) because it's a "prior year" roster event ... The 2018 roster may, or may not, accurately reflect what the composition might be for the 2019 Season ...
This year's T.O.C. was even more problematical because of the truncated schedules in many divisions caused by the Sunday rain-outs ... In effect, we dropped the elimination brackets in a lot of divisions and just stayed with the unbeatens ... Not a desired result, but we lost 12 of the 21 fields on three of the five complexes, leaving no other option to determine Champions ... That prevented ANY elimination bracket survivors from having a chance to double-dip the unbeaten(s) ... That artificially over-valued the strength of the unbeatens and undervalued (potentially) the strength of those still alive, but not unbeaten ...
One of the two teams you mentioned has only played in ONE one smaller SSUSA sanctioned event per year ... Occasionally they win that event and try to put something together for the T.O.C. ... They have not gone to Las Vegas or any other larger event (ever) where they could be evaluated in a larger pool of teams ...
The other team won their T.O.C. bid at AAA but was raised in October to Major following the 2018 World Masters ... They had a significant roster implosion after that, but held it together for the T.O.C. ... They played 65-Major in Phoenix with a significantly different roster at the Winter Worlds, went 0-5 with a -49 run differential and were re-rated back down to AAA ...

Hope this provides some insight ... Thanks for asking ...

March 11, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
Ozone8 ... A Player's HIGHEST rating experience history determines where he may also play in another age group ... The range of vertical motion is limited to one rating index ... A 60-AAA experience player may play with a 65-AAA team as one of the allowed maximum three out of rating players, but not with a 65-AA ...
March 11, 2019
pizzaboy
49 posts
Dave I'm glad you mentioned that the tournament was rain shortened and one of these teams won a smaller TOC last year so they didn't get bumped up.Pill&Pill played one Ssusa tournament last year and won it.It wasn't finished either because of rain and we won two 5 inning games to boot.Result Pill&Pill bumped to major after playing one tournament.
March 11, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
pizzaboy ... NOW I remember you guys! (and it's in interesting coincidence how our answer for Ozone8 somewhat merges with your comments) ... Your team is the one that had multiple guys play "younger" with a 60-Major team in 2017 that won the World Masters Championships and got their personal experience rating history bumped to 60-Major+ (R/I=7) as measured against your then 65-AAA rating of R/I=4, a "spread" of three rating levels ... Three things are apparent: [1] I'm glad I'm not on the Ratings Committee, [2] I'm glad we don't move teams based on prior year roster performance at the current year T.O.C., and [3] Your team's circumstances are a lot more complex than your brief presentation here would infer to the casual observers ...

Sounds like a good time to fall back on the old standby advice: Have your manager contact the eligibility/rating folks in Sacramento to go over your anticipated 2019 Roster and see what options are available ... It's certainly not going to happen here! ... Good luck!

March 11, 2019
Ozone8
36 posts
Thanks for confirming that, Dave.
March 12, 2019
southerinman
Men's 50
44 posts
Is there a way for a player to find his rating index? I don't see it listed under my information.
March 12, 2019
lb16
Men's 50
138 posts
southerinman - It's pretty simple whats the highest rated team you have played on. That's how all the senior organizations rate players not based on individual talent level just the highest team you have played on. Unless of course you go thru the appeal process.
March 12, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
lb16 is correct, with a couple of clarifications ... It's the [1] highest rating index (R/I) from the current and two previous SSUSA Seasons, [2] so long as there is no "sitting out" to advance the "statute of limitations" ... When a player tries to "sit it out", the clock on that two years also stops ... And for players 70+ and more senior, the timeline is only one year ... Thanks!
March 12, 2019
southerinman
Men's 50
44 posts
The team I played with started at 55M last. It was Chi Town 55's with George Rhear as the coach. On the last rersting there was a team of the same name but with a different coaches name (Glen Ellyn) that was dropped to 55AAA.BIhave sent a couple emails out to other players and the coach but haven't gotten any reply yet.
March 13, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
Southerinman ... The Chi Town 55's team was formed in early 2017 and requested an initial 55-Major rating ... They maintained that rating through the 2018 Season and were re-rated (on 12/18/2018) to 55-AAA based on a performance evaluation over that time ... Accordingly, your personal team rating experience history also changed to 55-AAA ...

BTW, and this goes WAY back, but my grandparents lived at 1201 N. Morrison Street (near the Catholic Church) in your fine town from 1928 through 1988 ... I visited there many times until 1962 when our family moved West ... The house (smaller than I remembered it!) was still there five years ago when I drove by ... What a small world! ... Good luck this year and will probably see you in Indy at the Brickyard ...

March 14, 2019
2bornot2b
20 posts
Dave. How does SSUSA know that a player is trying to "sit it out?" I would think SSUSA would have to live in his head or hire an detective.

I can think of a few reasons for not playing one or more years: injuries/health, no money for travel that year, gets dropped by the team and can't find a new team to accept him (at that level, decides to take a couple years away from tournament play and wants to come out of retirement.

Also, it's hard for me to believe there are tournament players who just quit for a year or two/three/four years just to change player history. Maybe I just love the game too much to understand.
March 14, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
2beornot2b ... We normally discover it after the fact ... The usual occurrence is when a manager is putting together a roster for an upcoming event .. The office checks all rosters for the tournament and sees a player who's R/I is out of whack for that team ... Say, it's a AAA team and the guy's history R/I is at Major+ ... So we look at the individual player's history and discover he hasn't played in two years, since just after his former team earned their Major+ rating ... We tell the manager he can't have that guy and most often have to explain the policy on the suspended clock during the "statute of limitations" sit-out ...

The second most frequent circumstance happens right after a team is moved up and a player or manager calls and says "OK, I can't play at THAT level, so I'll just sit out the two years!" ... We then advise them it will be a four-year wait if they take the first two off, and that usually has a sensible impact on their decision ... Players need to play if they want their team(s) to have further rating evaluation ... But we don't have the resources, desire or time to maintain any sort of list of who might be employing the "wait it out" game ... Current roster checks identify them pretty easily on a case-by-case basis ... Hope this helps!

March 15, 2019
Ozone8
36 posts
Dave,
As a follow up to your original answer to my question, what prevents a team from adding an ineligible player to their roster using the online tool?

As a manager I can go into the system, locate a player clearly not eligible for our team (he's Major +) and the "add" button is available to me. Obviously I did not follow through and do the add but it appears that I could have.

If that is the case, how would the ineligible player be detected? Would an opponent have to protest during a tournament game and if the player was listed on the roster what would happen?
March 16, 2019
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2408 posts
Ozone8 ... The SSUSA office staff checks every player on every roster prior to each sanctioned event ... If you added a player who is not eligible for your team (based on rating), we will see it then ... For teams that try to add "walk-ons" on the first day of the tournament, the onsite director calls the office to get approval and is not allowed to add him without it ... If the player somehow slips through both of those check-points, then an appeal by an opponent would be appropriate ... Sometimes, the protesting team is unaware of all facts and circumstances affecting the suspected ineligible player, such as an approved medical re-rating, a recent down rating of his prior team, etc ...

March 16, 2019
Ozone8
36 posts
Got it. Thanks, Dave.
March 18, 2019
neck10
678 posts
dont back up take a complete walk around ur car before u back up just sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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