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Discussion: out or safe

Posted Discussion
Nov. 20, 2020
Doak
13 posts
out or safe
Dave, something happened at the Winter Nationals I have never seen before and I can use your guidance. Runner on 1st Base, line drive hit to our "rover" he makes a great catch on the ball. The runner on 1B breaks for second, the ump makes the correct out call and the runner heads back to 1B. The throw comes to me at first, I am off the bag and the runner beats the throw back in. Now, the batter is running to 1B and collides with the returning runner and knocks him off the bag. As I go to tag the runner out the Umpire calls a dead ball and the play dead and awards 1B to the original base runner. I thought there would be no dead ball as the play was still going and also that there was a rule against contact with the advance runner by the runner from behind. The explanation was that in the interest of safety this was the correct call. Please advise..

#37
Nov. 21, 2020
B.J.
738 posts
Doak, Im not Dave but I know of no rule against contact with the advance runner by the runner from behind.. only that a trail runner may not pass the runner in front of him.. in fact he may assist him as long as he does not pass him

what I would have on the call since it was 2 offensive players that collided is the batter out on the catch and runner out when he unfortunatley got knocked off the bag by his team mate
Nov. 21, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3078 posts
I am Dave, and I agree with B.J.'s analysis ... My only other question I have would be in regards to the offensive team's manager ... How long did it take for him to ask the batter-runner "What were you thinking, if anything??" ...
Nov. 21, 2020
stick8
1802 posts
Only is senior softball this could happen. 😀

I have a question about the rover. Was he on the dirt aligned up like a normal 5 man infield or was he way out in the grass?
Nov. 21, 2020
Doak
13 posts
The fielder was in the "short outfield" and made a great backhand catch of a low liner. I get the runner isn't out by getting passed, but Dave when he was knocked off first base by the batter/runner can he be tagged out? This is the question still not answered. Is the play still alive or by being knocked off the bag and the umpire stops play for injury before being tagged out by the defensive team. Can he be tagged out as he lays 5 feet from the bag or does the stoppage of play by the Ump for an injury give him the "right" to return to the 1st base?
Nov. 22, 2020
B.J.
738 posts
Doak... again not Dave.. you changed your scenario a little.. now time was called because of injury.. YES.. the umpire has the right to call time for injury and then after players are tended to he should finish the call.. so in your scenario both runners are lying on the ground and not on the base 1st baseman has the ball and was about to tag the runner returning to 1st when time was called.. the umpire should then explain B/R is out on the catch and runner returning to 1st is out because had time not been called because of injury in his judgement runner would have been tagged out while off the base.. the injury/collision is no reason not to finish the call after play is ready to resume
Nov. 22, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3078 posts
Doak ... Again, I agree with B.J.'s analysis, especially as additional facts are introduced to the equation ... I maybe even see it in more simple terms ... With bodies flying around at our age, I'm fine with an umpire maybe calling things quickly to see if everyone's physically OK ... So you don't like the (non-)call because you're the defender with ball in hand looking for an easy out ... But of you're the original baserunner from first base sprawled out on the ground, you'd think the call he made is deserving of the Umpire's Hall of Fame ... I could even support the umpire ejecting the batter-runner for apparent gross stupidity and reckless-running! [grins] ...

Nov. 23, 2020
Treestand Man
Men's 55
6 posts
I think it should be a double play for not Social Distancing if neither player was wearing a COVID Mask! (Bigger Grins)
Nov. 23, 2020
stick8
1802 posts
Doak, the answer to your question is a resounding yes! Whether hes knocked off the bag by another runner as your scenario states or for whatever reason decides to vacate the bag he can be tagged out! An injury to said runner, does not negate tagging him out.
Nov. 23, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3078 posts
stick8 ... We agree 101% except for that pesky little problem that the umpire called "Time" before a tag could be applied ... I'm reasonably confident that a tag can't be applied resulting in an out during a "Time-out/Dead-ball" circumstance ... For the umpire to then rule an out is guaranteed to result in an argument would be my guess ...
Nov. 23, 2020
Treestand Man
Men's 55
6 posts
If the batter rounded first and they collided with the runner before he could get back to the bag I think out would be right. Since he legally beat the throw I think ump has leeway to justify dead ball. In a league game, our third baseman threw wildly to first hitting the batter in the head. Dude went face down out cold! Our first baseman tagged the lifeless batter six feet before the bag. Umpire ruled him safe saying it's not dodge ball!
Nov. 23, 2020
stick8
1802 posts
Dave to make an accurate judgement Id have to witness it first hand. I do agree with you about the ump calling time, the play is deadno tagging can be applied.
On the described play, presuming there were no other runners on base, after the runner successfully beat the throw back to first and he didnt slide off the bag or his momentum carried him off the bag, Id call time. Id have nothing when the batter runner collided with him knocking him off the bag. Id tell him the rover caught your ball.
Nov. 23, 2020
stick8
1802 posts
Treestand Man, I disagree with what that umpire ruled. Its unfortunate that runner got pegged in the head and was knocked out. But an injury to a runner going to a base doesnt mean hes automatically safe.
What if a runner popped a hamstring or a calf? Or got a bad cramp? The pain from those injuries will put anyone down. But they can still be tagged out.
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