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Discussion: Team forfeiting their seeding games

Posted Discussion
Aug. 31, 2020
tall_thunder
Men's 50
67 posts
Team forfeiting their seeding games
I read a team would not be playing their seeding games, but be at the field for the start of the bracket play. SSUSA stated that the team would be seeded last, which I agree on, but then SSUSA stated that the team would start in the losers bracket, which I don't agree with. SSUSA stated rule 15.5... where are these rules so I can see how you came to this reasoning.

Thanks
Aug. 31, 2020
HAT MAN
Men's 40
219 posts
Click on forms upper right then scroll down to rule book
Aug. 31, 2020
lowprofile
56 posts
I gotta believe that team is going 0-2 losing both games by forfeit 7-0/7-0 so that's a minus -14 runs, maybe you have a point that it's possible other teams could have a bigger minus after two games? Hum lol.

Maybe just the fact their not showing up put's them in the bottom of the bracket and that goes without saying? I think most people would agree with SSUSA decision as it's only fair that teams that showed up and played should be a higher seed. JMO.
Aug. 31, 2020
HAT MAN
Men's 40
219 posts
Sorry i meant tournament
Aug. 31, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3005 posts
tall_thunder ... It's SSUSA Rulebook 15.5 on page 76 ... It's been on the books for at least 15 years and has it's origin in a 50-Major+ team that declined to play their seeding games (3-game RR into DE Bracket in those days) for the World Championships ... They waltzed into the bracket as the last seed on Saturday fresh as the proverbial daisy and ran the table for the Championship ... The other dozen or so teams thought (rightfully so) that was a grossly unfair travesty ... The Rules Committee agreed, respectfully, whether or not you do ...

Now, for this year's version of this issue, the team in question had a change of position over the weekend regarding their initial refusal to play on Thursday ... They will be playing their two seeding games, so it's a moot point ... But for the record, this is one of those rules that I have never seen waived ... One component of the rule is discretionary: The part about being forced into the Elimination Bracket after the first game (they play that first game, but regardless of the score, they are dropped down into the Elimination Bracket) ... If the causation is something outside of the team's control, say, for example, a death in the "team family" or a car crash on the way (both of those have happened and we don't penalize for it) ... But this case was a manager's protest over the change to a four-day format, resulting in him having no reasonable expectation of leniency ... Fortunately his players prevailed on him to change his mind, presumably after reviewing and analyzing the consequences! ... All is good now, and the entire 27-team pool will seed conventionally behind the #1-#2 USA National Championship game teams ...

Aug. 31, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3005 posts
Just to clarify the "consequences", in a 27-team bracket where you don't get a 1st Round bye, you can win the tournament in six games (five if you get a bye) ... You can still win it after losing that first game, but it will be in your 12th game coming out of the Elimination Bracket ... That's not quite as easy ...
Aug. 31, 2020
Alamo
15 posts
Does this mean that anyone can ask for a new time in the future?
Sept. 1, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3005 posts
NOPE ... Later start requests have a high probability of being granted if made BEFORE the schedule is drafted, and very close to no chance if made "after the fact", when they serve only to waste the time of everyone involved! ... After this team refused (in protest of the change from a three- to four-day event) to play their Seeding Games and then had a change of heart, let's just say that the internal decision to re-draft and disrupt several other team schedules in the process was NOT a unanimous vote ... There was strong support for simply allowing them to experience the full effect of their temporary defiance ... I certainly wouldn't count on it playing out this way again any time soon! ...

Sept. 1, 2020
Mikelmart
58 posts
So because of this teams defiance my team and other teams had to face two additional schedule changes while the Tony Curtis/Sidney Pottier team gets off scot free.
Sept. 1, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3005 posts
Mike ... I'm a bit unclear on the Tony Curtis/Sidney Poitier reference even though I know who they are, but otherwise YEP, that's pretty much "it" ... You're back to your original game schedule, about 2 weeks before the event, which should give you and your strong managerial skill set enough time to adjust ... You suffer only the simple substitution of playing the Cincinnati 60's on the same field at the same time rather than Vancouver USA in your first game ... And if you run into him, please feel free to let their manager know exactly what you think of this "stunt" ... We handled the "cure" despite not being part of the "cause" ... And the ONLY reason we changed it back is because we fielded a multitude of "WTF" calls from his players, calls confirming they had no idea what or why it was going to come down the way it was ... The players deserved better than what they were being set up for by their manager ... Good luck! ...

Sept. 1, 2020
Mikelmart
58 posts
Dave, Tony and Sydney starred in a movie called "The Defiant Ones". Our best revenge is to play the offender and serve them the cold dish.
Sept. 1, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3005 posts
Thanks for the "cultural enhancement" Mike! ... I looked it up after I'd posted and learned it was a 1958 cinema hit ... I was 7 years old then! ...
Sept. 1, 2020
Dbax
Men's 60
1884 posts
Cmon Dave, its a classic!
Sept. 1, 2020
Mikelmart
58 posts
And I was 2, that's why we have Turner Classic Movies and late night television.
Sept. 1, 2020
Dbax
Men's 60
1884 posts
Exactly!
Sept. 3, 2020
Bushor1159
Men's 50
5 posts
Good morning one and all. I play for the Vancouver USA team and I would like to add some clarity to this discussion. When the tourney move was announced and it was slated as a three day tournament, some of us arranged for our days off from work and made our travel reservations based on a three day tournament. This would allow us to travel on Thursday to prepare for Friday. When the change was announced we realized that some of our players would not be in town until mid to late Thursday. As stated, we did not REFUSE to play- we just would not have enough players to take the field Thursday morning. With the allowed schedule changes this will allow us to field a team and play. We are very grateful for this. I feel that SSUSA has stated that we were refusing to play and that is just not the case. Yes, I know our manager can be a pain (just ask any of our players) and maybe he did not state this to SSUSA but NONE of our players refused to play. So we apologize to any teams that are impacted by this change and we look forward to seeing everyone in St. George.

Best Regards,

Jeff Bushor
Sept. 3, 2020
DaveDowell
Men's 65
3005 posts
No worries, Jeff ... This one is ancient history now ... I was the person who explained to your manager, on multiple occasions, the consequences of making a voluntary decision not to play on Thursday ... Each time, he was specifically asked: "So there is no misunderstanding here, are you refusing to play the Thursday games?" ... His answer, as part of a longer speech, was "Yes" every time ... I suspect, non-judgmentally, he may not have grasped the implications until seeing the practical impacts on paper when Rulebook 15.5 is imposed ... Regardless, we're very happy your team will be there for the entire tournament ... The players who called our office to inquire and contribute an opinion were gracious and, ultimately, carried the day when it came to whether or not we would decide to make the second set of changes ... We appreciate that a lot! ... Good luck! ...

Sept. 3, 2020
Bushor1159
Men's 50
5 posts
Dave-Thank you for your kind words and we appreciate everything that you guys do to put us on the field. Take care and be safe! JB
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