Message board »Message Board home »Sign-in or register to get started
Online now: 3 members: Alanh, Bob-O_17, TABLE SETTER 11; 62 anonymousDiscussion: is the runner out?
| Posted | Discussion |
| Sept. 21, 2019 1jonsey 48 posts | is the runner out? Runner is on 2b, the batter hits a ground ball up the middle and it goes off the end of the pitchers glove and strikes the runner going to 3b. I know the rule says it is a live ball but where does it tell me if the runner is out or can he continue on to 3b. I just read 8.2C and it says excluding the pitcher, It reads that the pitcher doesn't count as a fielder and that the runner is declared out and it's a dead ball. Then under DEAD BALL I read 9.1X. When a fair batted ball strikes an umpire or base runner on fair ground before passing or touching an infielder, including the pitcher. EXCEPTION: A fair batted ball that deflects off the pitcher’s glove remains a live ball. EFFECT: The batter is awarded first base and runners on base advance one base only if forced. I have a question. In the exception part of the rule if the ball remains live why is the batter awarded 1b and runners on base advance one base only if forced. If it's a live ball doesn't that mean the play continues on? Where does it tell me what happened to the runner who was hit by the ball? |
| Sept. 21, 2019 stick8 1992 posts | 1jonsey, in the play you described it’s a live ball, runners are free to do what they wish and the defense is free to make any play they want. |
| Sept. 22, 2019 B.J. 1107 posts | stick.. I agree with you once the pitcher touches the ball it should be a live ball play on.. BUT we had a similar scenario a few months ago and Dave said it was a live ball but runner was still out?? I have no idea how Dave got to that because as jonesy stated where does it say the runner is out? and why are the batter and base runners awarded bases on a live ball?? I argued it and never really was told where it specifically says the runner is out in the rule book as it specifically does on ball that has not passed a fielder and hits a runner Dave cited the 2 rules below to determine the runner would be called out??? hopefully Dave will explain it when he gets a chance 8.2 • BATTER BECOMES A BATTER-RUNNER C. When he bats a fair ball even though it strikes another player, umpire or their attached clothing or equipment. 2. If the runner is hit by the ball while off base and before it passes an infielder (excluding the pitcher), the ball is dead and the hit runner is declared out. The batter-runner is awarded first base without liability to be put out. MISCELLANEOUS 9.1 • DEAD BALL X. When a fair batted ball strikes an umpire or base runner on fair ground before passing or touching an infielder, including the pitcher. EXCEPTION: A fair batted ball that deflects off the pitcher’s glove remains a live ball. EFFECT: The batter is awarded first base and runners on base advance one base only if forced. (See also §8.2 C.) |
| Sept. 23, 2019 stick8 1992 posts | BJ, I judge it by the pitcher trying to make a play on the ball. Going by 1joneseys scenario the pitcher definitely made a play on the ball so I have a live ball (unless the runner intentionally tried to kick or deflect the ball) If the batter smashed one thru the middle where the pitcher had no chance to react and it hit the runner off the base then I may have a dead ball out. I’d have to witness the play live to render a judgement. It’s all judgement by the umpire. |
| Sept. 23, 2019 B.J. 1107 posts | stick.. yes I agree once the pitcher makes contact with the batted ball it's a live ball play on.. what I still do not understand is how the runner is called out and how bases are awarded to the batter and runners on a LIVE BALL PLAY ?? stick.. I just went back to June the 12th discussion and read it again.. YOU MAKE THE CALL.. Dave said.. The runner is out because he was struck by a live batted ball ... |
| Sept. 23, 2019 stick8 1992 posts | I don’t understand that one either BJ. From what I read Dave is pretty spot on regarding the rules. Perhaps he did a typo? Another one I never understood is how anyone can claim the pitcher is not a fielder? |
| Sept. 23, 2019 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | Focus on the the part that says (excluding the pitcher). Very straight and forward to me. Two different scenarios. One where the pitcher touches the ball and one where the pitcher doesn't touch the ball. |
| Sept. 24, 2019 B.J. 1107 posts | wayne.. you never gave an answer as to what your call would be.. is the runner out when the ball tipped off the pitchers glove and then hit him ? where does it say he he is out in the rule book? and why were bases awarded during a live ball play? |
| Sept. 26, 2019 1jonsey 48 posts | thanx for responding, but I'm still not sure if the runner is out on my OP. I even went back and read the old posts from a similar question. Does anyone from the front office read these questions? Could you please cite the rule, so I can go back and show my guys the correct answer in the rule book. |
| Sept. 26, 2019 STL0 Men's 60 231 posts | Runner on 2B is not out when touched by the ball after the pitcher touches it. I believe Stick and BJ have it right (as usual). |
| Sept. 26, 2019 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | §8.2 C. only addresses one way a batter becomes a batter-runner and has nothing to do with the call of the runner being out. Only tells you where to place the batter-runner when that occasion arises. 2. Describes what happens if a runner is hit with a batted ball before it passes an infielder, which in this case EXCLUDES THE PITCHER. (Runner is out and all other runners return to their TOP base unless forced by the batter-runner becoming a runner. 9.1.X Describes a dead ball situation. EXCEPTION: Describes one situation when the ball is MADE dead (so get a shovel and bury it) but remains alive until such point. EFFECT: Tells of the enforcement to be made. In the original post runner should return to second unless he is forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. I don't read anything at all says the runner is out in OP except in 2. SSUSA rules are often a word salad. STLO ~ not a usual as you might think. |
| Sept. 27, 2019 1jonsey 48 posts | wayne, why would the runner have to return to 2b, the rule says it's a live ball. I also don't understand how the batter is awarded 1b on a live ball play either. In this scenario I thought awarded bases could only be given on a dead ball or delayed dead ball. I went back and read Dave Dowel's post on 6/12. he posted with the exception that a runner struck while off base is out. That is not what X says in the rule book , he added that part on his own and I can't find it in the rule book. below is what X says in the rule book, EXCEPTION: A fair batted ball that deflects off the pitcher’s glove remains a live ball. EFFECT: The batter is awarded first base and runners on base advance one base only if forced. is there anyone on the senior softball staff that can answer if the runner is out, and if he is please tell me where it is in the rule book |
| Sept. 27, 2019 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | When it comes down to it, SSUSA rules seem to be a whole different animal than other rule sets. Sounds as if somebody who wrote the rules were trying to make the verbiage their own. In doing so they changed the entire meaning of the run. In the situation where the runner was on 2B (doesn't say if there were others on base) so I assume there wasn't others on base. The runner(s) weren't force to advance by the batter becoming a runner, so he remains at 2B. The rules committee should really look at this one at the next convention, since it is under what they describe as an immediate dead ball. You're right about one thing, the batter being placed at 1B isn't an award. That would entail something such as a walk which is an award. Really, at a few points reading this it is quite confusing. Personally, someone screwed the pooch on this one. If I get some extra time, I will try and research some other rule sets and how they enforce your situation. To me they really need to edit the exception. It should read: MISCELLANEOUS 9.1 • DEAD BALL X. When a fair batted ball strikes an umpire or base runner on fair ground before passing or touching an infielder, including the pitcher. EXCEPTION: A fair batted ball that deflects off the pitcher’s glove (((AND HITS A RUNNER OR AN UMPIRE BECOMES AN IMMEDIATE DEAD BALL.))) EFFECT: The batter is awarded first base and runners on base advance one base only if forced. (See also §8.2 C.) |
| Sept. 28, 2019 B.J. 1107 posts | wayne.. I don't think I've ever said this to you but you are right the rules committee needs to look at this rule and write it so there is a direct and clear answer as to what happens to the runner hit by a batted ball that goes off the pitchers glove.. you wrote.. (In the situation where the runner was on 2B (doesn't say if there were others on base) so I assume there wasn't others on base. The runner(s) weren't force to advance by the batter becoming a runner, so he remains at 2B.) I disagree that the runner remains at 2nd .. if it's a live ball then all runners should be able to advance. I still do not think the runner that was struck should be out.. Hopefully after the Vegas tournament Dave will look into this with the rules committee and give a definitive answer I looked up the ASA rule... below is what they say.. Section 8. RUNNER IS NOT OUT. F. When a runner is hit by a fair batted ball after it touches, or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball. |
| Sept. 28, 2019 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | You just earned yourself a big eyeroll young man. If the umpire gets hit with a fair batted ball before it passes a fielder excluding the pitcher it is an immediate dead ball. You effectively place the runners and batter as you would a base on balls. Fair batted ball strikes a runner before it passes a fielder excluding the pitcher. Runner is out and runners return to their time of pitch base unless forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. Fair batted deflects off the pitcher and hits runner or umpire, ball is live. However, runner cannot do anything intentionally to interfere with fielder or get hit with the ball. |
| Oct. 3, 2019 1jonsey 48 posts | will a senior softball staff member please take the time to answer my OP of the questions below? 1) Is a runner out when hit with a batted ball that goes off the pitchers glove? 2) Where in the rule book does it tell me if he is out or if it's a live ball play on? 3) In the EXCEPTION if the runner is out as stated in a previous post how is this a live ball and how do you award the batter & runners bases on a live ball? |
| Oct. 4, 2019 TimMcElroy 942 posts | 1jonsey If the pitcher makes a play on the ball and it deflects off of his mitt, then hits a runner the ball remains live. The runner is free to advance to the next base and the defense is entitled to make whatever play(s) that may be available to them. There are no awarded bases in the scenario that you originally described. |
| Oct. 4, 2019 1jonsey 48 posts | Tim, thank you |
| Oct. 5, 2019 Wayne 37 Men's 65 773 posts | But that's not what the rule says. I've raised issues before about the verbiage of the rules and only get static on the line. Go figure. Two things. The ball doesn't have to deflect off the pitcher's glove, just the pitcher themself. The enforcement of this rule pertains to the umpire being struck with a fair batted ball. Umpire working inside and gets struck, immediate dead ball. Place runner(s) and batter as you would a base on balls. Fair batted ball that hits an umpire working outside after passing all fielders (even deflected off the pitcher) is live. |
| Oct. 5, 2019 TimMcElroy 942 posts | 1jonsey. You are welcome. |
| Oct. 6, 2019 B.J. 1107 posts | Tim.. thx for the clarification I wish you had gotten involved with the same question back in june |
