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Online now: 7 members: 3_SoftballFreak, Coach5, Dave07, LC7, Steve83, TABLE SETTER 11, ronniealvarado#7; 92 anonymousDiscussion: Appeal Play?
| Posted | Discussion |
| March 23, 2016 TexasTransplant Men's 70 516 posts | Appeal Play? I posted this on the Softballfans.com umpiring forum and got two contradictory answers: SSUSA tournament. Potential 5th run in a 5-run inning is on 3rd. Two outs. Batter hits what would be a clean single. Runner from 3rd touches the scoring plate with what would be the 5th run of the inning. Batter goes straight to the dugout without touching 1B. After discussion with defensive coach, umpire calls the runner out (3rd out) and disallows the run. Is this the correct call? Is this an appeal play? If an appeal play, does that make it a timing play with regard to whether the run scores or not? |
| March 23, 2016 TimMcElroy 942 posts | No run scores. This is not an appeal play. Rule 8.3 C The batter-runner is out when he fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls or catcher's interference. EFFECT: The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and runners cannot advance. |
| March 24, 2016 k man Men's 65 326 posts | Not just the batter, but when there is a force situation, I can't tell you how many times, coaches, teammates are yelling to the runners "got to reach the next base" so that the 5th run will score. |
| March 24, 2016 1jonsey 48 posts | Tim, I read the rule but why isn't this an appeal? I have a couple more questions, 1)what if the pitcher walks in the 5th run the batter walks up the 1st base line but doesn't touch the base he is met by the base coach who takes his bat and a team mate who has his glove he then proceeds to the field, he never entered his team area, do you call him out and disallow the run? same scenario but instead the runner that was on 2nd advances towards 3rd but does not touch the bag he then enters the 3rd base dugout, do you call him out and not allow the run? |
| March 24, 2016 stick8 1992 posts | Texas transplant that umpire was correct. If he just goes into the dugout without touching first it's a dead ball out and runners cannot advance--they go back to the base they occupied. 1jonsey, both scenarios are appeal plays as long as the appeal is made before the first pitch is delivered to the next batter. And in both scenarios you describe the runners are forced to go to the next base, so no run scores. |
| March 24, 2016 1jonsey 48 posts | stick so batter is only called out without an appeal if he enters the dugout? what is the difference between the batter entering the dugout without touching the next base and being called out and the runner going to 3rd not touching the base and entering the dugout you say that is an appeal? if one is an automatic call why not both? didn't they both do the same thing? |
| March 24, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | Sounds like comparing apples to oranges to me. In "Texas Transplants" play the ball was put into live action play. The second scenario deals with a walk where the ball is dead. BUT: since we ostensibly play for exercise, to avoid situations like this instruct all your players to take a few steps and touch a base, there is no penalty for touching a base. |
| March 24, 2016 stick8 1992 posts | 1jonsey, unless he is out on a force any base runner who goes into the dugout without touching the proper base he's forced to go to as the play dictates, yes that runner should be automatically out. My answer was mistaken in your original second scenario. Sorry about that. To answer your last questions: 1)no difference, they should both be automatically out because they did the same thing. As Oz40 states: always touch the proper base your forced to go to. |
| March 25, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | STAFF....In rule 8.3C it only mentions the batter-runner is out when he fails to advance to first base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls or catcher's interference. stick 8 says that any runner is out for not advancing and touching the next base and then enters the players area... are BOTH of these automatic outs without appeal...and the key on if it is an appeal or automatic call is whether or not the player enters the players area? |
| March 25, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | A runner only has to advance if he is forced to. So I cannot see the described scenario happening with less than 2 outs. |
| March 25, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | oz40...yes....I didn't put in that runners were forced to advance |
| March 26, 2016 OZ40 549 posts | I would think this is an appeal play. 2 years ago at the Winter Nationals I batted with 2 outs. I hit an over the fence homerun, our runner on 1st started toward 2nd base after the ball cleared the fence he turned around and went to the dugout, I had touched first. It was APPEALED that the runner from 1st never touched 2nd. He was declared out by the umpire. So not only didn't he or I score, our runner on 3rd didn't score either. As a side note, sometimes in the spirit of moving the games along managers will ask the umpires beforehand if homeruns need to be run out by the hitter. We've had answers leaning in both directions from umpires in the same tournament. So as I stated above in another post, ALWAYS touch up the next base, why take a chance on an out? Don't be lazy, touch a base, it saves a lot of grief and time arguing! |
| March 26, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | OZ40 I agree with you I think it's an appeal play also...what I'm trying to find out is there a difference between a batter/runner and a runner and if so why is there a difference...that's why I asked STAFF for there interpretation of this rule and above scenarios |
| March 26, 2016 k man Men's 65 326 posts | OZ - Page 45 of SSUSA Rules 2015-2016 there is a note after the number of home run rules Rules 8.4(2) - 8.4(5) Note- The home run batter may return directly to the dugout and all other runners may return directly to the dugout. Known as Hit and sit. Not sure what is in other organizations or when SSUSA added this to the rules. So they either changed the rule since then or you and your team were screwed. If it was a rule probably should have asked ump to check with the tournament director. and btw I agree, touch the next base to avoid any controversy. Runners should be running so they should almost be at next base anyway. |
| March 26, 2016 crusher Men's 75 524 posts | SSUSA and SPA are both Hit & Sit for ball over the fence. Base runners go directly to dugout as the batter does. One of the 2 orgs just went Hit & Sit in 2015. SO 2 years ago all must touch the next base in one of the two orgs mentioned. |
| March 26, 2016 SSUSA Staff 3491 posts | Texas Transplant ... You proposed the original hypothetical before the facts began to get tweaked ... Here's your call ... The umpire got the call correct ... The 3rd out of the inning is on the batter-runner at 1st ... His failure to touch 1st base on the play is, in effect, a force out at first because he left the field of play before legally acquiring 1st ... This is not an appeal play (see below) and is not a timing play because no run scores when the 3rd out of an inning at bat is a force out ... B.J. ... Your theoretical situations are both automatic calls and not appeal plays ... The rules committee concluded that any umpire will be able to determine whether or not a batter-runner or a base-runner had left the confines of the field of play, either into the dugout or outside the fence boundary ... The Committee reached the same conclusion with respect to a base runner who fails to advance to the next base when required to do so, such as the 5th run scoring from 3rd with two outs and a runner on first not advancing to 2nd on a base hit other than an HR ... The key point is that leaving the playing field is an abandonment of any subsequent right to advance, whether or not required to do so, making the call automatic ... k man and OZ40 ... The adoption of the concept known as "hit and sit" after a home run was added at the 2014 National Rules Committee sessions, a few weeks after the Winter National's mentioned ... We believe that concept is the norm and that SSUSA was the last national association to adopt it ... At the 2015 sessions, the "hit and sit" concept was extended, on a consistency basis, to a "four base award" scenario ... The correct call made at the 2014 Winter National's under the then-current rules would have been a different call a month later ... In the scenario of a runner missing a base, for example, missing 2nd on the way to a triple, that is an appeal play ... |
| March 26, 2016 B.J. 1107 posts | Staff....thx for the detailed explanation for the above scenarios... |
