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Discussion: MONEY

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Aug. 7, 2017
wolfman
Men's 70
14 posts
MONEY
I SEE MY QUESTION ABOUT MONEY IS NOT BEING POSTED JUST CHECKING TO SEE WHY DID I ASK THE WRONG QUESTION I THINK THE PLAYERS HAVE A RIGHT TO SEE WHERE THERE MONEY IS GOING
Aug. 7, 2017
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2242 posts
Roger ... We have not deleted or restricted any of your posts. Try posting it again.
Aug. 7, 2017
curveball
Men's 65
631 posts
Quite frankly Wolfman, you don't have any right to see the financial workings of any private company. If you came in my restaurant and asked what I spent my money on I personally would tell you it's none of your business.
Publically traded companies though have financial records for viewing.
Aug. 7, 2017
wolfman
Men's 70
14 posts
'THE QUESTION I ASK WAS WHY CANT WE HAVE GOOD BALLS TO HIT AND AT LEAST TWO UMPIRES ON THE FIELD THE PLAYERS PAY MONEY TO THE ORGANIZATIONS TO PLAY WE SPEND ALOT OF MONEY FOR GAS HOTELS FOOD I THINKS THE PLAYERS SHOULD GET SOMETHING FOR DOING THIS WE PAY ENTERENCE FEES AT EACH TOURNAMENT .$250 TO $500 DOLLARS. WE PAY YOUR ORGANIZATIONS FOR A CARD TO PLAY THERE IS ALOT OF PLAYERS OUT THERE PAYING FOR THIS THATS THE QUESTIONS ON MONEY AS FOR BEING A PRIVATE COMPANY AM I NOT AN INVESTOR IN IT?
Aug. 7, 2017
stever
Men's 65
81 posts
No, Wolfman. You are not an investor in the company. You are paying for a service. SSUSA does all the work to set up and run the tournaments. You pay them a fee for doing so. If you don't like the product they are providing or don't feel you are getting the appropriate value for your money you have the choice not to use their services. It is no different than any other market (movie, hotel, restaurant, etc.). You have the freedom to decide whether or not to use the services but you DO NOT have a right to know their financial workings.
Aug. 7, 2017
Yank1
Men's 50
6 posts
Wolfman, You're not an investor you're a customer. And like any business or service you use, you can always choose to take your business elsewhere. Asking to see the financials of SSUSA isn't going to get you anywhere. A more constructive way to get your point across is get in touch with as many other team managers as you can and try to find an alternative association to play in. As for your specific complaint about the balls you should be happy you never have to hit the balls we just played with in the SPA National in Dalton. Easily the worst balls we've ever used. On Friday night there were 21 bracket games played and a total of 35 HR's hit in 50 Major.That's less than 2 per game for both teams combined and we were playing 4, 1 up and a walk. Good luck to you and your team. Yank
Aug. 7, 2017
wolfman
Men's 70
14 posts
That is the typical answer we get at the fields also I dont have to pay to belong to a hotel,movie,restuaurant,when I go to one of these and pay I expect to get good service this is an answer we all get from the ivory tower when we ask any question
Aug. 7, 2017
wolfman
Men's 70
14 posts
Yank1 guess you are right asking the organizations any questions is like shooting pool with a rope
Aug. 7, 2017
softball4b
Men's 65
1090 posts
I have often found that when you ask questions that you are entitled an answer to, SSUSA responds. You are not entitled to "see where the money goes", you are free to voice your opinion regarding field conditions, umpiring, tournament setup, frankly just about anything other than I gave you a dollar how did you spend it. I am not trying to be snarky just think you can phase your questions or concerns in a manner that might yield a result that you are satisfied with.

For example: I find it difficult to understand why a 5 game guarantee round robin is stretched to 3 days or how a 5 game guarantee worlds is stretched to 4 days. I know the economics of the why to the organization, but as a consumer on a soon to be fixed income, not pleasurable at all.
Aug. 7, 2017
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
507 posts
Actually Curveball, I think he does have the right to certain financial information. According to this disclosure (see below), which you can find with a little digging on this website, Senior Softball World Championships is a 501(c)3 tax exempt organization and, as such, must make certain financial disclosures.

I doubt he will find sufficient detail to answer questions about the quality of the balls, number of umpires, etc. Good luck with that. But he does have some rights to financial information if he wants to pursue it.




Financial Disclosures - IRS Required
Senior Softball World Championships, Inc., is a tax-exempt organization, under IRC §501(c)(3), subject to the Internal Revenue Service financial information disclosure requirements listed below:
Public Disclosure Requirements Applicable to Tax-Exempt Organizations
In general, exempt organizations must make available for public inspection certain annual returns...and must provide copies of such returns...to individuals who request them. Copies usually must be provided immediately in the case of in-person requests, and within 30 days in the case of written requests. The tax-exempt organization may charge a reasonable copying fee (the current Federal approved photocopy rate is $0.20 per page) plus actual postage, if any.
Exempt Organizations - Documents Subject to Public Disclosure
An exempt organization must make available for public inspection and copying its annual return. Such returns include Form 990, Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax (Senior Softball World Championships, Inc., files Form 990), Form 990-EZ, Short Form Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax, Form 990-PF, Return of Private Foundation, Form 990-BL, Information and Initial Excise Tax Return for Black Lung Benefit Trusts and Certain Related Persons, and the Form 1065, U.S. Partnership Return of Income, filed after August 17, 2006. Returns must be available for a three-year period beginning with the due date of the return (including any extension of time for filing). __________
Procedure for Making a Disclosure Request to Senior Softball World Championships, Inc.
All requests must include the tax year of the requested documents and the full name, physical mailing address (no P.O. Boxes), phone number and valid e-mail address, if any, of the individual requester. » Requests by an organization, trade name or any other non-individual entity will be denied. » Requests for multiple copies or for transmittal to a third party non-requester will be denied. » Recipients are prohibited from posting the information received on third party World Wide Web sites, including their own. » Recipients will be required to acknowledge and agree to these terms and conditions prior to receiving the requested information. • In-Person Requests at the principal office of Senior Softball World Championships, Inc. • Senior Softball World Championships, Inc. 9823 Old Winery Place, Ste. 12 Sacramento, CA. 95827 Phone: (916) 326.5303 Business Hours: 8:00 AM - 5:00 PM Weekdays • Written Requests (including requests by Facsimile and E-mail) • Mail and Courier Services (Same as In-Person Requests) Senior Softball World Championships, Inc. Attn: Public Disclosures 9823 Old Winery Place, Ste. 12 Sacramento, CA. 95827 Facsimile Requests sent to (916) 326.5304 E-mail Requests sent to the General SSUSA Mailbox and including the words "Public Disclosure" in the Subject line
Aug. 7, 2017
wolfman
Men's 70
14 posts
TexasTransplant Man Thanks that's nice
Aug. 7, 2017
softball4b
Men's 65
1090 posts
Transplant is correct in that anyone has access to the Form 990 or 990EZ. It will not contain the information wolfman is asking. Business plan specifics are not required when filing.

Fair enough questions to the organization when deciding if a team or individual is trying to decide whether or not to attend an event. Freedom of choice is just that, a choice.

We as consumers may not like how an event is run or the cost, but ultimately we have input, but not necessarily the ability to affect change.
Aug. 7, 2017
curveball
Men's 65
631 posts
Thanks TexasTransplant, I was unaware of the 501(c)3 status. Sorry Wolfman, thought the organization was a partnership plain and simple. Forge on.
Aug. 7, 2017
Benji4
201 posts
Let's see. On at least 5 different occasions this year on this message board, a SSUSA representative has said the ball they have contracted with is the Trump Stote, except in Vegas where the Rock ball is used because of a previous commitment with Las Vegas.

And I do believe SSUSA has put something out in the newsletter that they were in need of more umpires.

So if you paid attention to previous posts you would probably have your answer instead of complaining on a message board.

No business or 501C(3) organization will ever let you see their entire expenses. This is America and you have a choice to play or not play......

Some of you are starting to sound like Millette......
Aug. 7, 2017
DOERBAUM
Men's 55
81 posts
IF YOU DO THE MATH ON A 50 TEAM TOURNAMENT @$500 PER TEAM, AT FOUR COMPLEXES, THEY PROBABLY NET ABOUT $4000 AFTER OUTSIDE EXPENSES ( FIELDS, BALLS, ROOMS, UMPS, ETC). OUT OF THIS THEY COVER AIRFARE FOR OFFICIALS FROM SSUSA AND SALARY AND ROOMS AND HOME OFFICE EXPENSES ETC. HELL, I THINK THEY ARE WORKING CHEAP. AS TO THE BALLS, I WOULD PAY EXTRA FOR A GOOD BALL TO BE USED, BUT WE ARE STUCK WITH THE INFAMOUS STOTE. JUST BE GLAD YOU DON'T HAVE TO HIT IT IN CENTRAL FLORIDA LIKE I DO ALL THE TIME....LOL! (PERHAPS YOU ARE ALSO IN FLORIDA, SORRY FOR THOSE OF YOU IN THE SAME HOT HUMID BOAT AS I ) YANK1 IS CORRECT IN SAYING THERE IS ALWAYS A WORSE ALTERNATIVE. THE BALLS IN DALTON WERE PURE PUMPKINS. WORST BALL I HAVE HIT SINCE THE OLD CORK CENTER SB-12 BACK IN THE 70'S. ANY GAME AFTER 10:00 FORGET ABOUT IT!!! AS A TEAM WE MIGHT HAVE HIT 10-12 FOR THE WHOLE TOURNEY. YOU HAD TO HIT IT DEAD NUTS PERFECT TO GET IT OUT.
Aug. 7, 2017
wolfman
Men's 70
14 posts
Benji4 sounds like you are a ssusa rep
Aug. 7, 2017
wolfman
Men's 70
14 posts
DOERBRUM 50 teams $500 I think that comes to $25000 even after expenses $4000 for a weekend sounds pretty good. so maybe spend another $100 bucks for some good balls.dont remember getting a message on voting for the trump stote ball or was this something the Ivory tower sent down this is still America don't we get to vote
Aug. 7, 2017
TexasTransplant
Men's 70
507 posts
I don't remember when the World Championships moved from Phoenix to Las Vegas. We played in Phoenix in 2010 and it might have been the next year. That's six years ago. I don't know what the term of the contracts we've been hearing about is --- must be pretty long. In the business I was in, if we had as many customer complaints as I've seen on here about the Stote, we would have been seriously engaged in rectifying the situation. Contracts can be renegotiated. I could be wrong, but I believe both the Stote and Rock are made by Trump, so it wouldn't seem to be an insurmountable problem.

On the other hand, if the real issue is safety or economics, why not say that and end the discussion.

Now having said all this, I seriously doubt that organizing senior softball tournaments is a gold mine. I don't know why anyone would want to pursue a business model where the primary customers are old farts who bitch about everything. All issues about balls, umpires, etc. aside, I for one am glad they do.
Aug. 7, 2017
Benji4
201 posts
Wolfman. Nope not a SSUSA rep. Just a player, but I have ran many tournaments and know you will never make everyone happy and people who have never run a tournament tend to bitch and complain the most.

I was merely trying to answer your questions.

I am thinking you should start your own senior softball organization. Call it Wolfman Softball and you can use whatever balls you want.

Sorry to break the news to you but not everything gets voted on and LIFE ISN"T ALWAYS FAIR....

Good luck to you on your new softball organization.
Aug. 7, 2017
swing for the fences
Men's 50
1208 posts
real question is what is the price difference between the Rock and Stote... probably not much.. more of a contract thing I bet!
Aug. 7, 2017
DOERBAUM
Men's 55
81 posts
WOLFMAN, HOW MANY PEOPLE DOES THAT 4K COVER? ITS NOT JUST THE TOURNY WEEKEND BUT ALL THE LOGISTICAL BS

LEADING UP TO IT. 74 TOURNAMENTS ON THE SCHEDULE TIMES DOUBLE THE EXAMPLE $ MEANS THEY WOULD NET JUST

UNDER 600K FOR THE YEAR. DIVIDED BY HOW MANY PEOPLE, MINUS HOW MANY PLANE TICKETS, HOTELS ETC. EVEN VEGAS

WHERE THEY USE A "GOOD" BALL (F'N ROCKET IF YOU ASK ME... FUN TO HIT, NOT TO FIELD...) AT 500 TEAMS THEY ONLY

GROSS $372,500. OR APPROX 60K. WAAAAY TOO MANY WHINY OLD FARTS TO HERD AROUND FOR ME TO WORK FOR THAT... I

WATCHED THE FLORIDA HALF CENTURY THIS PAST WEEKEND HERE IN WINTER HAVEN. YES IT WAS HOT. AND MUGGY. WATCHED

MORE THAN ONE PERSON TURN AND DAMN NEAR CUSS OUT THE UMPIRE CAUSE THEY "FLEW OUT". SAME STOTE BALL AS

SSUSA TOURNAMENTS. NO WONDER UMPS ARE CRUSTY...LOL! NOT THEIR FAULT. I THINK WE OWE SSUSA A BIG DEBT OF

GRATITUDE FOR PUTTING UP WITH OUR OLD WHINY ASSES, AND PROVIDING A SERVICE THAT WE ALL ENJOY. NO I'M NOT

AFFILIATED, HELL I DIDNT EVEN KNOW ABOUT SENIOR BALL TILL LESS THAN 3 YEARS AGO.
Aug. 8, 2017
AJC
Men's 60
113 posts
Wolfman, with all due respect, how many businesses have opened their books or told you where your money goes and how much profit is in it for them. Im sure you could count that number on one hand, in fact id be shocked if it has happened even once. Does it really matter to us as the consumer how their business is structured. We have the choice whether to give them our business or not. Is their product good ? From what Ive seen, the product is very good. As far as the ball goes, the Stote could ne improved but both teams have to use the same ball so at least its fair in that regard.

As far as you asking about the money ( tourney fees ), while im not trying to justify the costs of the tourneys , i feel the costs come from everything else. Even as expensive as Vegas is, $745, once you split that among the team, that comes to around $60 per guy. That has to be a small percentage when compared to flights, hotels, food, etc.

All in all, i think we are lucky to have a SSUSA and im thankful for the time and effort they put in so we can continue to play this great game.
Aug. 8, 2017
SSUSA Staff
2627 posts
Quick hitters to clarify a few of your observations and (some faulty) assumptions ...

• Our annual Form 990 Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax for 2015 is a matter of public record (The return for 2016 is on extension and will be filed shortly) ... As an IRC §501(c)(4) not-for-profit, we "zero base" budget ... For 2015, our net profit disclosed on that return was $13,159 on total gross revenues of $1,927,656 for a profit margin on gross revenues of 0.68% ... We made $1,097 per month net profit ...
• Depending on the nature of civic support, which varies from event to event, the "break-even" number of teams is somewhere between 55-60 teams for the TOC Qualifiers we administer from the Home Office ... We continue to take the hits and run events at less than that number because we want to have TOC qualifier events in all parts of the country so that teams have a shot at qualifying without a 1,000 mile trip to do so ... This week's Southern Championships, for example, with 12 teams, will be a substantial "loss" event ...
• The World Masters has been in Las Vegas since 2012 ... The terms of our agreement with LVSSA require the use of The Rock ball for the two events co-promoted by SSUSA and LVSSA, the second event being the Southwest Championships ... Support for going exclusively to The Rock is not as overwhelming as some may assume from the random anonymous postings here ... The economic cost spread between the Stote and The Rock is substantial ... Going "all Rock" would require an increase in entry fees due to our zero-base budgeting obligation ... The Stote meets our overall objective nationally for all but those two events quite well ... Obviously, there will be dissenters, and that's fine ...
• We will continue to carefully consider all aspects of how we run our business with the goal of doing what is in the best interests of the majority of the players and teams .. That's what we do ... Individual issue decisions, however, are solely ours based on our 30-plus year history of experience ... Thanks for commenting ...

Aug. 8, 2017
Garocket
Men's 55
246 posts
The entry fees are high, but think what it takes to do 1 of these tournaments. The pre-tournament hours talking to teams and cities to make sure you will have fields and accomodations for teams and tournament staff. Flying in staff to run the tournaments having to pay for rental cars and then paying the TD's per day to run the tournaments, after paying this plus the balls and awards I could see them losing money on some of the smaller events. But in business you have to take the bad days to be rewarded with the good days.

The national office has 4-7 full time employees and I assume they do not work for free( lol).
The people that grip about a company making money has never run a business and know that sometimes you worry about making payroll.
Aug. 8, 2017
garyheifner
545 posts
I totally trust Dave-Terry and the guys in California. Without these guys, we got squat. There expenses have to be huge. At the same time, they have to make a living. When the Hillary and and Bill pony up with a report on what every penny is spent on from their "SECRET" foundation hidden in Canada, I might ask for more $$ info from SSUSA.
Aug. 9, 2017
Omar Khayyam
1268 posts
Don't have a problem with SSUSA not disclosing its finances. If a team feels the cost is too high, they can play elsewhere (a nice option in northern California with dozens of tournaments a year—not such a good option in some places, of course).

Do have an opinion on the Trump Rock. Our older team hates it. Add in the high altitude in Vegas, and it is a rare outfielder who can play all tournament games after chasing the Rock around the outfield. It is too hot (and some infielders and pitchers are concerned with safety) and there are so many better balls (the Baden Fire, for example, as a lively ball that doesn't break down in heat).

Don't usually have a problem with the Trump Stote, but in Central Valley tournaments in California (like Sacramento for the Westerns) there is a noticeable decline in performance as temperature climbs into the 90s in the afternoon. Discouraging to hit the ball well and see it nestle into an outfielder's glove who was playing 30 feet in against the Stote.
Aug. 9, 2017
SS11
40 posts
The company shows a net profit of $13,159 on $1.927mil. That net profit is after paying employees, which could be $10,000 per year or $500,000 per year.

Take USSSA as an example. USSSA receives $x amount of every team that plays in every tournament. They also get the team registration fee. The remaining of the tournament money is used by the local director to pay for fields, umpires, travel expenses, etc.. Whatever is left is what the local director has earned for running the tournament. With that concept, approximately $2,000,000 in revenue is a substantial amount of money.

Year-to-date in 19 (most of the big ones) out of what will be a total of 72 SSUSA Tournaments (not counting the recreation tournaments) page they have collected $755,440.00 in entry fees alone. Some of those tournaments did very well, some not so well.

What does all of this mean? Not Much... What would be nice would be for the SSUSA Board of Directors to have some sort of questionnaire that they send out to all of the players they have emails for, and get input on equipment, field usage, ways to improve the quality of the product, etc.

Don't know if they care or not, but most good business owners want to know, to help ensure the long term health of their enterprise.

But when it comes down to who makes how much within SSUSA, not really up to anybody but the board of directors. Do the players have control as to how much people earn? Absolutely, because without the players, they earn $0.

Aug. 9, 2017
AJC
Men's 60
113 posts
SS11, I'm not arguing on any of your points, I just cant think of any other business that would state where their money goes and how much everyone on the payroll makes as income and bonuses. Do we control how much people earn, its probably more like we control how many employees can earn a paycheck from the company. For every team that says were not paying that, a new team signs up.

Im not standing up for them, im only saying its unreasonable to expect SSUSA or any other company to open their books and share any financial information. Like any other business, when fees seem to be getting to high, customers will look elsewhere.
Aug. 9, 2017
AJC
Men's 60
113 posts
Its like going to a SF Giants game and getting 2 beers and the cashier saying that will be $24. Then saying " thats way too much, where does does all the money go." We all have a choice to either buy the beer or say Im not going to pay that much and ill get it elsewhere. But we cant expect them to explain why it costs that much.
Aug. 10, 2017
Mango
Men's 50
150 posts
Omar,
I agree that the Rock is way too hot a ball especially for Vegas where the ball flys. I prefer the Stote. We played in Sacramento a couple weeks ago where it was 103 degrees at game time. There were homeruns. But only by home run hitters. The games were much more enjoyable than hitting super balls. Get rid of the Rock. In my opinion only fake home run hitters want the Rock.
Mango
Aug. 11, 2017
Omar Khayyam
1268 posts
Mango, I agree that having a tournament where only the home run hitters get home runs is preferable and makes a better game. The problem with the Stote is that it throws off hitters who know where their range is (not home run hitters) and the Stote on a hot day distorts their game. But if the Rock disappeared tomorrow, I would shed no tears. Some posters on this forum have demonstrated that the Rock is actually illegal (or at least labeled incorrectly).
Aug. 12, 2017
Foothills
Men's 55
94 posts
Stote is no fun in Sacramento summers .

Fortunately not a problem if you live in NorCal .

NCSSA uses the "Fire" ball . Which is better than the Stote and not as good as the Rock . A good compromise .

Only 3 tournaments in this area for SSUSA . Rock-In-Reno and the Westerns and the State .

The elevation in Reno compensates for the Stote . So good to go there .

Then don`t play the Westerns and the State .Still have NCSSA tournament`s almost every weekend as an option . I think a lot of teams are doing this . Noted by the small amount of teams in the above mentioned tournaments .

The "Worlds" use the Rock . So no problem there . You know you are not traveling to Vegas and putting in your dollars to hit a sock .

Works for me .
Aug. 12, 2017
VegasBob
41 posts
We use the Rock 12 months a year in Las Vegas, and it holds up very well in the heat. Never heard Vegas referred to as "high altitude" before lol. People over emphasize the Rock. It's not a super ball, just one that goes a bit farther. None of our players get injured by it. LVSSA is heavily involved in the World Masters. The Rock is there for a reason.
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Senior Softball-USA
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Fax: (916) 326-5304
9823 Old Winery Place, Suite 12
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Senior Softball-USA is dedicated to informing and uniting the Senior Softball Players of America and the World. Senior Softball-USA sanctions tournaments and championships, registers players, writes the rulebook, publishes Senior Softball-USA News, hosts international softball tours and promotes Senior Softball throughout the world. More than 1.5 million men and women over 40 play Senior Softball in the United States today. »SSUSA History  »Privacy policy

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