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Discussion: You make the call

Posted Discussion
Nov. 19, 2018
HAT MAN
Men's 40
198 posts
You make the call
Just for knowledge wanted an answer on a play we had that didn't become an issue but made both sides wonder after game.

Scenario

1st and 3rd one out. batter hits single to right field over the head of fielder. Runner on 3rd scores for 7th run of inning. RF leaves ball in outfield and runs in to change sides.
Both runner on first and batter go to dugout without touching next bag. All but 3 defensive players entered their dugout when jokingly defense said they didn't touch the next bags. Ball was left in right field. Can they go back out and grab ball to appeal bags? Offense was already taking the field.
I can see where both runners are out once they entered dugout but can also see where defense gave up on play so ball is dead.
What's your opinions?
Nov. 20, 2018
azmike
7 posts
well all runners need to touch the next base or it will be a dead ball out,
then all runners must go back to there base they were at,so then you would have 3 outs for that inning and only 6 runs
Nov. 20, 2018
B.J.
600 posts
hat man.. the rule says that the defense can make an appeal before the next legal or illegal pitch, before an intentional walk or before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the bench or dugout area.
in your scenario you don't explain where the infielders were.. but it sounds like it was most likely the OF's who were the only ones left on the field.. so no the appeal would be illegal

the RF giving up on the play has no bearing on the call and it is still a live ball situation.. it is the runners responsibility to fulfill there base running obligations

where it can be confusing is that part of the rule could have been met.. say the pitcher and most infielders clearly vacated there fielding positions and had entered foul territory except the 3B who was still crossing over the infield to the 1B dugout but still in fair territory then per the rule a legal appeal could still be made
Nov. 20, 2018
marcster13
90 posts
First off any defensive player who leaves the ball in fair territory in his area of play for another man/woman to go retrieve the ball is a POS. It disgusts me when I see grown men do that.

That being said......... If i was on a team who failed to retrieve the ball i would not call for an appeal to the umpire just out of sheer embarrassment for my team. But if the Outfielder simply went to the ball and picked it up like a decent human then sure why not appeal both runners and save a run.
Nov. 20, 2018
HAT MAN
Men's 40
198 posts
To be clear the rf played close enough to throw runner out if it was caught. The other team joked because rf left ball in right and said can we appeal? We gave him crap, we all laughed. It was all in fun but later we wondered what the call would be. Can they run back out and get thur ball for appeal? Etc.
Thanks for the clarification of that rule
Nov. 20, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
609 posts
Actually this isn't an appeal play, so it doesn't matter what fielders left the field of play. This is what is called abandonment and not an appeal of a missed base.

If there were two outs and batter-runner enters the dugout, the umpire should immediately rule him out and waive off the run.. If there was one out both runners left the field and entered the dugout, both runners are ruled out immediately and no run scores. No outs, score the run.
Nov. 20, 2018
stick8
1702 posts
Hat Man, since you stated all but 3 fielders went into the dugout, the inning is over. No outs can be made.
If players stayed on the field and one of the defensive players retrieved the ball, stepped on second and stepped on first I have a double play, no run scores.
Both BJ and Wayne are correct. BJ in his explanation and Wayne stating itís not an appeal play. Presuming the umpire is paying attention, itís a continuous play.
Nov. 20, 2018
B.J.
600 posts
wayne is actually part right on the B/R not touching 1st base .. he would be called out for not advancing to 1B

in the original scenario it wouldn't matter how many outs there were at the end of the play the runner on 3rd would not be allowed to score because the B/R never advanced to 1B.. therefore per the rule no runners can advance

as far as the runner that did not advance to 2nd he could still be called out on a legal appeal.. but only if all the infielders and the pitcher had not left their position and crossed into foul territory.. if they did then no appeal would be allowed..




Nov. 20, 2018
TimMcElroy
456 posts
SSUSA RULE 8.3c (page 45)

Batter-Runner is out when he fails to advance to first base and enters his team area after a batted fair ball, a base on balls, or catcher obstruction. EFFECT: The ball is dead, the batter-runner is out and runners cannot advance.
Nov. 20, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
609 posts
Why does the runner that was on 1B and that didn't go 2B need an appeal? He is out the very second he steps into the dugout. This is abandonment by the offense. Abandonment is not a timing play.

It is the umpire's job to see that all bases are touched legally. Like stick8 said, the playing action is continuous. The play at 2B wasn't a force out because the batter-runner entered the dugout thus taking off the force?
Nov. 21, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2560 posts
Maybe, just MAYBE, the two teams involved came to a logical, quick and common sense (which isn't all that common) realization that "..Well, they got their seven, so let's grab our bats and go get ours!.." ... They probably didn't even think about a bunch of gyrations to try to get a cheap out, let alone a seemingly never-ending "stump the ump" Message Board thread ... Nawwwwww, that's too easy! ... Happy Day tomorrow, you Turkeys! ...

Nov. 21, 2018
stick8
1702 posts
Dave you make a valid point. We had this discussion the other nignt in a high school basketball rules meeting. A guy was going over every conceivable situation and asking what the ruling would be. Situations that would likely never happen. An official can know all the rules and the rule book back and forth but if he or she doesnít have any common sense chances are that wonít be a very good official.
Nov. 22, 2018
Benji4
211 posts
COMMON SENSE. Damn what a novel concept.

If we could just make a pill form of common sense and sell it to Millennials, life would be good.
Nov. 22, 2018
chico senior
Men's 60
106 posts
I agree with Dave and Benj4. COMMON SENSE! I hate the umpire that is out there looking for something to call. The umpire who never moves out from behind the plate to make the call at 2nd or 3rd on a base hit but is right there to call the runner out at home for running through 3 inches of the box when the play was at 2nd. Instead of him making an effort to get out into the middle of the diamond so that he can make a better call, heís still standing behind the plate calling a runner out who had nothing to do with the play. I have been UIC in the past and have told umpires not to worry so much about what is happening behind them when it has nothing to do with the play. As Dave said, IGNORE IT! If the play is at home then the umpire should attempt to get in the best possible position to make that call. Of course, for many umpires this is easy as they never moved out from behind the plate to begin with.
Nov. 23, 2018
stick8
1702 posts
Benji4, Amen to that!!
Nov. 24, 2018
the car
83 posts
this sounds like a major plus game with 7 runs so they have been playing along time and should know you need to touch the next base and the base coaches should be telling them to also. Even in triple A they know they need to touch the next base with the hit n sit rule is where it all stems from in my eyes
Nov. 25, 2018
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
I can't remember Dave ever saying ignore a rule in this case when the batter-runner entered the dugout without advancing to first base the ball is dead and runners if advanced must return
Nov. 25, 2018
DaveDowell
Men's 65
2560 posts
After re-reading what I posted, it still doesn't appear that I mentioned anything about ignoring a rule ... However, this situation is one that should be enforced if brought to the attention of the umpire(s) in a timely manner ... It wasn't, so as far as I'm concerned, it's "play on" ... Being from a 40-Major+ game, that's a call that didn't mean a thing to the homer-hungry guys playing, and that's OK, too ... Umpires and Directors, in my view, shouldn't go hunting for outs absent a game participant bringing it to the forefront ... Ignorance of the rule is it's own penalty for the uninformed, in this case, everyone on both teams ...

Reminds me of a situation from the Spring World's about 10 years ago ... Championship game in 55-Major+, two outs in the bottom of the 7th, tying run for the unbeaten team on third, winning run on second, #4 batter at the plate ... This was a game that the umpire had allowed to get almost two hours behind due to poor time management in previous games on his field ... Offense asks for courtesy runner, and umpire says "OK" ... As soon as the CR steps on 3rd, and without a word from anybody (player, coach, scorekeeper or spectator), the ump blows him up and starts getting ready for the "If" game ... Did he make the technically correct call? - Absolutely ... Did it have to be made at that moment? - Probably not! ... Note: Formerly unbeaten team won the "If" game in a blowout ...

Nov. 25, 2018
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
I just thought I would add my opinion as I have worked with you for quite a while and never heard you say to ignore a rule and don't think I ever will
Nov. 26, 2018
B.J.
600 posts
Dave, now I'm confused..

( Did he make the technically correct call? - Absolutely ... Did it have to be made at that moment? - Probably not! )

I have to ask.. when would you have the umpire call the illegal C/R out? after he might have scored? or not at all?
Nov. 26, 2018
B.J.
600 posts
as for HAT MANS "stump the ump" OP.. after thinking on this and eating many servings of turkey I believe the correct call would be .. the B/R is out (# 2) for not advancing to 1st base and runners cannot advance.. the runner that was on 1st and did not advance to 2nd is also called out for abandoning the base once he enters into dead ball territory for out #3.. both are calls made by the umpire with no need for an appeal.. no runs scored
Nov. 26, 2018
stick8
1702 posts
Dave, Iím not so sure about that scenario. There are teams who have scorekeepers and or managers that watch the opposing teams CRís like hawks. If itís an illegal CR theyíll pounce on that right away. Iím not sure if the ump in your scenario knew without aid of the scorekeeper but itís a tough call to make in that situation but the right one, presuming the car was illegal. Itís on the teams to know whoís eligible to run and who isnít at any particular time.
A good question would be if the illegal runner scored the game winning run and teams shook hands afterward and were all gathering their stuff in the dugout, the ump(s) left the field when their scorekeeper discovered an illegal courtesy runner was on base that scored the winning run. Can you go back or is it too late?
Perhaps you and BJ can elaborate.
Nov. 26, 2018
Bigboy97xp
11 posts
If it was the last play of the game and the umpires had left the field no appeal can be made
Nov. 26, 2018
B.J.
600 posts
stick8.. usually the C/R can be called out until a pitch to the next batter.. in your scenario .. the rule says the appeal can made be until the umpires leave the field.. but in many cases the umpires stay on the field for the next game.. in that case as an umpire I wouldn't allow an appeal after the defensive team had left the field of play

Nov. 28, 2018
stick8
1702 posts
Sounds about right to me BJ. I might add that when the ump calls ďball gameĒ no appeals can be made.
Nov. 28, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
609 posts
stick8,

What can't appeals be made after the umpire says ball game? Tie game and hitter hits a walk off home run and misses first base, defense can appeal a missed base after playing action has ended. Umpires should really not leave the field until after the handshakes are over. If something starts, you are there to help stop and take numbers for ejections. Don't most have a two game suspension for an ejection.
Nov. 28, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
609 posts
Dave,

I can see the original scenario happening in a senior game. With one out runner doesn't advance to 2B because it's been a long day and his out at second doesn't negate the run. The hitter thinking the runner is going to advance and touch second base, goes to the dugout.

Moral to the story, thinking isn't knowing. With the ball at the fence they could have leisurely strolled to their base. This isn't a case of the umpire trying to get a cheap out. It's a case of lazy baserunning.

Nov. 29, 2018
stick8
1702 posts
Wayne37 you bring up an interesting situation. Consider what I had happen to me as a player. Keep in mind this is back in the day, usssa menís, not senior ball. Finals of a B nitóif game. Weíre in the field, bottom of 7th, tie score, bases loaded, 2 outs. Our pitcher walks the batter. Team comes charging out of their dugout celebrating. Iím playing middle and I note the runner on first never touched second, he just joined in tne celebration. Then they went into the dugout at which time I got the game ball and stepped on second. The field ump knew exactly what I was doing but he didnít call the runner out. He instead conferred with the home plate ump. After a 15 minute delay it was determined that since the home plate ump called ďball gameĒ when the runner at third touhed home, that was it, game over. Of course I was pissed and protested. The tournament director got the National uic on the phone and he ruled the same thing. The ump called ďBall gameĒ means game over.
Again this is usssa. Other associations and senior ball might be different.
Nov. 30, 2018
Wayne 37
Men's 60
609 posts
stick8,

I can say that is one of the worst calls I've ever heard. Sounds to me like two umpires that wanted to get out of there and not play extra innings, or just ignorant of the rules. The national director is right there with them.

Ball game means end of playing action, which you mentioned earlier. It doesn't mean the end of a proper appeal being made. Anyway, what the runner did doesn't really qualify as an appeal play. Runner should have been called out immediately upon entering the dugout without touching his base.

I joined a forum a few months ago called softballfans.com It covers all the various associations and has some very knowledgeable arbiters. Being bluntly honest, you will get a better grasp of the nuances of some rules than you get on this board.

P. S. I have worked some pitchers that can throw 95 MPH. Those include Todd Van Poppel, Blake Beavan, Clayton Kershaw, Kerry Wood and Yovanni Gallardo. Used to work fall ball at UT-Arlington and TCU just for the experience.
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